BONUS Carra pod! Isak helps Liverpool edge past Cherries to remain unbeaten

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0:55Use code MEALTIME for 50 % off your first Wonder order. Terms apply. See wonder.com slash new customer. Well, hello everyone and a very warm welcome to a very special event, the first ever Jamie Carragher podcast. We're sitting here on the gantry at the Vitality Stadium, having just watched Liverpool scrape a win against Bournemouth. Would that be a fair assessment or was it better than that? No, it certainly wasn't better than that. I don't think there was anything in it really in terms of both teams. Bournemouth will probably look at the game and think they probably deserved a draw, didn't have enough quality really in the final third.

1:27I don't think Liverpool had either, but a bit of a ricochet, wasn't there, when the ball came in at a, you know, a guilt-edged chance. And for Isaac, not going to miss that one. So it didn't feel like there was many big chances in the game, really. So I don't think Bournemouth can say they deserve to win, because they didn't create enough, but probably didn't deserve to lose. Where does that leave Liverpool? Five games, five Premier League games, and we'll put the cup aside one, but Antonio Lloro comes in, we know the difficulties that he's faced. where does that leave him as he reflects over these three weeks on where he is, what he needs to do who he can trust, who he can't where do you think they are just now?

2:05I think now he's in at Liverpool and he's had his pre-season now he's had probably seven or eight games at Liverpool now with the Cup games I think when he looks at the make-up of the squad and what he's got I think private when he's talking to his staff over these next three weeks they probably get a little bit of time off and they reflect and they're probably thinking I thought there'd be more quality in the building I thought this might be a bit easier I think we'd look a lot better that's because the nature of the opposition as well Liverpool haven't really played a giant so far or one of the rivals really that's going to come in the next few weeks isn't it?

2:42I think Manchester City Arsenal, I think Brighton are there and Brentford, the current top four the current top four so we'll really see where Liverpool are at right now But I think what I'd be really pleased with is, I think, three clean sheets now in the Premier League in a row. Liverpool had a horrendous record last season defensively. And I said in the game today, Jack Hay's an improvement on Erkanate. But that bodes well going forward. They're going to need to keep that because right now, you know, the attack and talent that they've got three£100 million players on the pitch, it's still not firing.

3:15But when that's not firing, you need to make sure you're keeping the back door closed. and as I said, three clean sheets in a row, two of those games away from home is not to be sniffed at. There are a lot of things in his intray, if you like, as regards exactly what he's got to do to get Liverpool going. But we'll start with the£100m men firing Barca Loake, it's only his second Premier League start, you can't expect too much from him yet. Then you've got Isak, another goal, another winning goal, another performance away from home. You know the goals will come for him if you create the chances, I guess.

3:47But Florian Wirtz, we talked about him a little bit during the game. I've had a look at his numbers. We know how effective he was when he was at Bayer Leverkusen. 197 games, 57 goals, 65 assists. That's why Liverpool paid the big money for him. This was his 55th appearance for Liverpool today. He scored seven goals and he's assisted 11 in all competitions. So you've got 18 goal contributions in 55 games from a£100 million plus player. Where is he now? I mean, he looked a little bit lost today. That was one of the poorest I've ever seen him in a Liverpool shirt. I've been critical of the fact that he hasn't got the numbers.

4:27But normally when you watch Wirt, he's neat and tidy. He keeps possession. And when you watch him, there's things that you like. You know, you'll get out of a tight situation where you're normally expecting your player to lose the ball. but the reason I worry is I don't think Florian Wirt is in poor form since he come to Liverpool I actually think what we're seeing is what he is and I was worried for Florian Wirt probably 12 months ago and maybe that was a little bit early to say that but I didn't say it it was just in the back of my head I commentated on Liverpool away at Burnley and Liverpool won with a late penalty I think from Mo Salah and when I was watching that game it's what I've seen for the last 12 months I don't see how he's going to hurt you it's just as I keep saying, neat and tidy and in some ways the price tag for that type of player should be half of what Liverpool have paid the woody for Viert now is that his performance is so far or what he's given Liverpool is so low and where we are expecting him was to be here to take Liverpool to another league title to take Liverpool to a Champions League the gap he's got to get to almost justify what people were expecting I almost think it's too big, you can't get there even if he improves a bit and gets there it's still not what Liverpool thought they were getting and I think about this in that when you think of the Jurgen Klopp team famously sold Coutinho, who was that type of player and then went with a workman-like midfield and were very successful but Liverpool won a league title with a midfield of workmanlike again of Sir Bosley Gravenberge and McAllister and I think Liverpool looked at it and thought why can't we have a number 10 Man City can have a number 10 and still win Kevin De Bruyne Arsenal who were a very strong team at the time Odegaard why can't we have our own one of that so you've got to go back to the reasons why Liverpool bought it because they didn't think they were probably getting enough end product from Sir Bosley even though we give you more stuff off the ball and he's being brought in and it's not just Wirtz, it's the knock-on effect so when Wirtz plays at number 10 it means Sir Bosley has to play central midfield I don't think Sir Bosley is a central midfield player I don't so it's not just Wirtz not performing it's the knock-on effect it has with the rest of the midfield and the one hope for Liverpool supporters now is Jürgen Klopp is the German manager and he goes away there for three weeks and he's obviously one of the best players in Germany that's how they see him and can Jurgen Klopp sprinkle a bit of stardust on him in that position but I think going forward he's got a decision to make here Iola I mean Wirt wouldn't be in my Liverpool team he wouldn't and when I actually go through the Premier League I was thinking about this on the way here because I thought it was a big game for Wirt because I thought if he doesn't produce today he's then going to have a three week break by the time we come back we're into October before you know it, it'll be a Christmas in six to eight weeks or it'll feel like we're getting to Christmas.

7:31He has to do something. Now, if you go through the Premier League and think of players in his position, not for the top teams, forget the top teams who we should be judging him against. I'm talking about normal Premier League players in the middle of the table who I think have done more for their clubs. I think of Dewsbury Hall or Everton. Now, no one out there would say Dewsbury Hall is a better player than Vert or would go for more money than Werth or would cost£120 million. But every three or four weeks, he scores a goal. I watched Morgan Gibbs-White for Nottingham Forest last week at Aston Villa.

8:06And in the second half, he put in a performance in 45 minutes Florian Werth has never done before for Liverpool. I've seen a goal Buendia scored. Now, again, these players aren't going to get over£100 million or£120 million, but they're still giving their clubs bits every few weeks. So I don't think Liverpool supporters are being harsh at all. I don't think the football public in general are being harsh at all about Florian Verts. When you think of the stick someone like a Paul Pogba got who was an attacking midfielder at United who didn't deliver but still got decent numbers at times. Bruno Fernandes last week was getting criticism on the back of the Manchester derby.

8:47He still created Manchester United two best chances and he got player of the year last year and he was getting criticism. So this idea that people are being harsh on Wates, or I am, no one's hardly said a word, myself included. And the controversial thing about Wates is to say he's doing well when he's not. That's the controversial take. Just to play devil's advocate, you could say, I know it came off the defender last, but it was his run across the near post that helped set up Isak and he had a little touch in there. I mean, I know he had a lot of misplaced passes to say and such, like and go that he's not that far away he just needs something to go in the top corner he just needs a little break and then he'll come are we over 50 games played are we beyond that for me yes but there will be liverpool supporters i can assure you're on social media saying what you've just said they will because i think it's a new phenomenon now with supporters in that we're called pundits but everybody's a pundit because the fans now they've got podcasts they They create content for TikTok.

9:54They're all over social media. So everybody knows what each other's said. We've all got receipts, as we say, in social media. So it's not just what I said or Gary said or Roy said. Everybody knows what everybody in the fan base has said. And so many people were so over the moon when Florian Verts came to the club and were talking about what he was going to do. And he hasn't done it. And I don't think anyone, probably myself included as a pundit, no one likes to be wrong we all want to be right but I think there's so many people so desperate to be proven right by Florian Wirt that they're almost telling you he's played well when he hasn't we can all see the game but someone as you've just said will say oh he got across the front and he created the goal it's not enough it's nowhere near enough and as I said the last hope is Jürgen Klopp can do something special and he comes back but if you're asking me Liverpool going back into a run of games against top opposition Manchester City at home for me he can't be in the team well it's not the Florian Wirtz discussion podcast it'll end up being on social media but it's a fascinating topic because they've got this incredible asset this incredible outlay they've played he's played as we've said 55 games where does it end?

11:07there has to come a point I guess where either he plays or he doesn't play and this is a massive decision is it not? the manager, the things I've liked so far about Iola he's had the courage to make big decisions so Gravenbert has just signed a hefty contract on a five-year deal on massive money because they thought him and Sir Boz were going to be the future of the midfield going forward he's not playing now I can imagine the guys at the top of the club looking at that thinking we've just given him a hefty contract but no he's not playing the full-back situation he keeps changing the full-backs he's dropped a frimpong straight away Kirkes has been in and out so he's made decisions and Kirchhoff is a player who cost Liverpool a lot of money and he knows really well from his time at Bournemouth but sooner or later he's going to have to make a decision on Florian Wirt and for me I hope it's sooner but not because I don't like Florian Wirt I'm desperate for the kid to do well I just want Liverpool to win that's it basically It's over to you Jürgen Yes, and listen hopefully he goes away there with Jürgen whatever the environment is Jürgen, listen one of the greatest managers in the world we know that and what he gets out of place is probably more than most managers because of the nature of his personality and fingers crossed something had happened for him.

12:22I mean, there's a scenario there, isn't there, that Jurgen Klopp and Germany have a great international window. He gets loads of goals, assists, comes back on a high. Manchester City's the next game. He impacts that. All is forgotten, all is forgiven. Do you know what I mean? There's a potential turnaround there. Listen, I would love that to happen. I'd love him to be the match winner against Manchester City. When we're saying all is forgotten, you can't forget as I said we're over a year that's what I said before it's a big jump to where probably we expected them to be and where everybody wanted them to be but as I said listen he's still part of the club he's part of the squad he's still starting games now hopefully when he comes back after scoring a couple of goals for Germany we'll get a little bit of taste of that ourselves at Liverpool so as we said we're here at Bournemouth you can probably hear the Mo's in the background as they repair the pitch after the game big and important win for Andoni Araiola and Liverpool.

13:12Let's cast our eye a little further across the Premier League weekend so far. We obviously don't know how Manchester United are going to finish up at Fulham yet. They're just about to kick off there. But there are two big stories this weekend. A few among the big stories this weekend, Arsenal and the manner of their defeat at Brighton. No one, but no one saw that coming, did they? No, they didn't. But I think it's one of those games where I think most people should look at Brighton and what's happening there and the players, you know, and the manager you know he's gone in such a young age and I think they were very unfortunate maybe not to get a result in the fixture last season and I think they lost 1-0 to Arsenal but in some ways and I know Arsenal fans won't want to like won't want to hear this it's probably good for the league you know because Arsenal I think on the back of winning the title everyone's almost thought you know the title's easily Arsenal's but Man City are actually top of the league right now still early days and I think most people see Arsenal as the best team and the best squad but I think that happens a lot and it happened to my team last season, we started the season not convincingly but results wise and then I think the first game we lost was at Crystal Palace and then it was just snowball effect, I don't see that happening with Arsenal but I think we go into every season looking at one team and thinking no one can beat them and we make that mistake every year really with somebody thinking it's impossible to stop them and it never ends up like that.

14:38So it's probably good for the league that most people will look at that and think, OK, they can be beaten. You can score goals against them. I mean, people were talking about after the way that they've negotiated the early challenges, an unbeaten season. I mean, it's early on, but they looked sort of so in control of themselves, that extra confidence that winning the title had given them. A performance like that before this three-week break, where does that leave them? Does that get just little doubts creeping in again, or is it just they park it, they go away, they come back, they go again? I think Arsenal will be fine.

15:09I think it's more about what it does to the other teams. I think everyone just raises the belief, don't they? Think of if Brighton can do it, why can't we do it? But what will hurt Mikel Arteta is the fact that it's the game before the international break. He'll be so desperate to have his players on that training pitch, have a team meeting, go through the game. He'll have to wait three weeks for that now. And maybe by that time his anger might have subsided because I'm sure he'll be furious. but listen we can't expect the best teams to perform every single week it was a real bad one for them but you know how consistent Arsenal have been for so long I'm sure they'll get back on track Well we talked about Liverpool having to play the top four in the next four games in the Premier League they've obviously got Champions League games in between that but you look at the shape of the top four we'll talk about Manchester City a little bit later but Brighton Can I just put my headphones on James just putting his headphones on there because the mowers are getting a little bit closer i was just saying jamie you look at the shape of the top four and brighton and brentford both in there after five games what astonishing starts they've had you say astonishing and you're right because people don't expect to see them but if you watch the games they should be there you know they've looked far more impressive than liverpool so far manchester united so far chelsea so far they look like real teams Now, Brentford were my outside shout for Europe.

16:32I'll be very surprised they don't get into Europe. I really love watching them play. I haven't seen as much of Brighton this season, maybe just the nature of some of their games being on TV. I feel like I've seen Brentford a little bit more, so I almost can't wait in the international break to have a look back at the Brighton game against Arsenal. I've seen a few highlights and different things, but I think it's definitely a game I'll have to, after watching the break and come back ready to analyse on Monday Night Football what Hertel is doing this season. I mean, it's been quite the week for them, putting five past Coventry, then going to Manchester United coming from 2-0 down to dump them out in their own backyard and then doing that.

17:10And let's not forget, Mitoma and Mintet, arguably two of their best players. They're without those. They've sold Belieber and look at them go. Yeah, it's unbelievable. And when you look at the team and you look at the names on paper, the average football fan will probably go, I don't know too many of them, really. but it just shows the nature of the club. They're happy to do business and sell players for the right price and back themselves to bring players in. Both clubs do, don't they? You know, Brentford and Brighton, two of the biggest success stories probably in the last sort of five or six years in the Premier League.

17:41And I think there's so many clubs in the middle of the table who look at them and think, we're bigger clubs than them. We should be doing what they're doing, but they just can't seem to master, you know, the ingredients that these clubs are built around. We know it's not just the managers and the players. There's a lot going on behind the scenes. But you keep sort of going into each season thinking they can't keep doing it again. But they just keep proving you're wrong. And kicking on. Speaking of kicking on, you could look at the table and go, well, look at that. Five games, five wins. Enzo Mareska has hit the ground running.

18:12We've seen the goals flying as we've been watching this one here at Bournemouth today. Manchester City, five three winners against Sunderland. What are we seeing at Manchester City? Are we seeing a seamless transition or are we seeing a start that's been a little bit fortunate at times? We haven't seen too much today. We've seen the goals. Enzo Mareska said he felt it was going to be his toughest game. Whether he was playing mind games with the players to make sure they were on it. But maybe he's been proven right here when you see how the game went. I actually felt at the start of the season, if Man City kept Rodri, they could win the league.

18:45Because they still pushed Arsenal close last season. and sometimes we talk about Pep going but sometimes a new energy a freshness you know Pep had been there so long maybe that could add something but I didn't see them winning the league without Rodri but I must say I think Elliot Anderson started brilliantly in there a lot made of the price tag as well Enzo coming in as well from Chelsea he's a good player whether people like him or not doesn't matter they've got two really good midfield players there so maybe arguably when you think of the not so much the ages of Rodri but Bernardo Silva was sort of getting on a little bit as well maybe you could argue the midfield area is actually better now with the three players coming in to replace the two of Rodri and Bernardo Silva certainly a lot younger a lot fresher and and yeah I think I think those two are a gulf away from everybody else so let's turn our attention to the bottom of the table and I mean this extraordinary situation I know you've spoken about it at times on Monday Night Football this season, but you just look at the way that it's happening in similar style, not identical style because they scored yesterday.

19:56But Tottenham, what on earth is happening there and how on earth does Roberto Di Zerbi start to go about curing it? I think midweek I felt there was signs against Liverpool. They looked a little bit better. I felt there was signs against Everton early on in the game, early on again against Aston Villa. but when they don't score the goal it just seems like everything just evaporates from them any belief that if we're playing well and we don't score how are we going to get a goal when the opposition come into the game and it feels like the opposition get a goal and then especially a hole I mean the record is absolutely horrendous but unbelievable I mean I don't even know the exact numbers but I'm going to make a guess here because I think I read something that even before the last couple of games at home He's won five out of the last 30.

20:47So, he might be up at five in the last 30, one 32. Are you going to confirm that? I know they had three there last season. Okay. You know, one of which was against Everton on the last day when they kept themselves up. But that's with different managers, different players. So, if Coventry or if any of the three promoted teams came into the Premier League and we said, you're going to play if you're going to play 30 home games over the next 18 months a promoted team would not accept winning five for one of the giants of English football or part of the big six to win five is a disgrace really when you think about it and you really question not just the ability of the players but the mentality I mean it's just that is I mean when I was a kid long before me going but when you're a kid and people talk to you about football and my dad used to tell me that in the 70s Tottenham and Man United got relegated you can't quite comprehend that happened but Tottenham have finished 17 two years running and have lost won five games in 30 it shouldn't be possible in this day and age because of the advantages the big clubs have you know financially but the one worry for De Zerbe and Tottenham is De Zerbe is not shy in coming out and speaking publicly about his frustrations.

22:14And he's already picked a couple of players out on the pitch and off camera. Now, I sometimes feel at times players are a little bit sensitive to that type of criticism and supporters jump on it a little bit too much. But that's only going to grow if those results continue. And if those results continue, eventually he will combust. That's just, that's his history. Well, he had to use an example of what you were just saying there. Matus Tell, who we had a discussion with on the pitch, didn't he, the other night, and then left out of the Matchday squad completely on Saturday. OK, that can work up to a point, but he's got to get his players onside, hasn't he?

22:49He's going to need them all pulling in the same direction. Yeah, I read comments this morning about Fernandes, who he brought off as well. He's playing in the number 10 role. And he may feel like what I'm saying is not that bad. And when you look at it in terms of the words and the print, it isn't that bad. It's just that it creates headlines, it creates noise. music, you know, you have players' agents onto people. Players now don't like criticism at all. No one does. Listen, even going back to my day, if a manager came out and criticised a player, it was always the saying that, you know, a manager shouldn't criticise his players in public.

23:22But if he's saying that in public, you can only imagine what he's saying privately. But that's who he is. That's the manager he is. And that's the success he's had so far as managerial career. So that's not going to change. But if the results don't change, you can imagine a few lively press conferences with De Zerbe. They've given him an extraordinary five-year deal on huge money, if you believe the figures that you read in the press. They've had this unprecedented outlay as well. Apologies, that was the Liverpool game, but I thought it was Fulham and United, the White Kits. I thought Fulham had just scored.

23:57It was the Liverpool goal.

24:01Yes, Lee Saks just scored again. I've seen someone celebrating a goal, I thought, oh, that's Andy. I can't remember what I was saying now. We're talking about the summer outlay on all these players, whatever you think about Tonali and Co, the players they've brought in, it's just not working. Does he change his way of going about things because he doesn't strike you as someone who would do that? Or is this a road to seeming ruin? and he's got nothing out of them in the first five games. No, because I don't think... I think sometimes with clubs, sometimes a manager's fortunate when he comes in and the club just can't change another manager.

24:38And I think we were at that stage with De Zerbi. Now, when I'm talking about his temperament, there's no doubt he's got quality as a manager. He's seen as a great thinker on football. So I think when Spurs brought him in, they felt like we've got a top manager here. We've brought in a really good manager, even though we're in a really poor position. and if he keeps us up, he knows that and he's used that in his negotiations to stay at the club that if I keep you up, you better go for it. Because I don't think he's the type of manager who's going to be there for five or six years. It's probably going to be two or three years, even if it's going well.

25:10So I don't think they have any other option, but to be patient, they have signed good players. Have they overspent? Yeah, of course they have. We know that. But Tenali's a good midfield player. Fernandes, we saw at West Ham, I think is a good player. They're not worth the prices they were bought for, but they still have got good players on the pitch. Kouda is a good player. He come off and then got a goal yesterday. But the idea that maybe Tottenham fans at the start of the season was they were going to have a real challenge or maybe get a Champions League position. I never felt that because to turn a football club around of that size, it was going to take more than just bringing in players and buying players.

25:46So, yeah, I think they don't want to hear it, but they've just got to be patient and wait. Well, just looking at their fixtures after the international break, The first one, Manchester United away. Then they have Coventry at home. That's a Monday night football mid-October. And then they go to Chelsea at the end of October. So it'll be quite interesting to see how that one plays out at the end of that. I'm going to ask you, and I've thrown this at you. I haven't said I'm going to say this before. But here we are, this strange punctuation point that we now have with this three-week break. Five Premier League games.

26:21That's more than you usually have before a break. What are your highs and lows, your hits and your misses of this opening month and a bit of the season?

26:34I think the hits, we've mentioned them before. I think in terms of Brighton and Brentford, I think have just almost been the best teams to watch in some ways in the Premier League this season so far. I must say I've been disappointed with some of the giants in my own team Liverpool Chelsea and Manchester United when you think of like how big the clubs are the players they have the wage bills what they've spent players they've brought in now don't get me wrong I know there'll be Manchester United fans saying Carrick's being let down and some Liverpool fans saying Iriola's being let down and the squads aren't great and I take that point yes but the performances still should have been a lot better and the results that they've had so far so I think some of the big clubs have been disappointing so far you know I think I've been impressed with as well and there's a lot of negativity coming into this probably Everton unbeaten so far in the Premier League and David Moyes he gets a little bit of stick off supporters I always if I ever see them I've got obviously friends and family supporters and sometimes I cannot believe some of the things they come out with I'm like there's job he's done since he's come back to the club got into a new stadium let themselves down at the end of last season but the fact they were talking about Europe but again there was a real negativity wasn't it at the start of this season on the back of how the transfer window had gone and again he just keeps chaining out results David Moyes all unbeaten so far in the season, important win and they'll go into that international break three weeks now in a really good position in the league and feeling good about themselves And just a word on the promoted clubs, it was so important that Coventry got that win yesterday, so they're all up and running.

28:17They've all got wins on the board. That's massive, isn't it, for them? I think it's massive for the league. I really hate when we've got teams marooned at the bottom, and certainly the promoted teams. I think it's brilliant for the league when the promoted teams come up and make a fist of it. We know they're going to lose lots of games, concede goals. It's going to happen. But I think at the start, it's nice to make them feel like they're part of the Premier League. And when you see Frank there, and you know what? He'd have been feeling it. He would have been. You know, he'll say in his interviews he's not.

28:44but when you see the other teams picking up points Ipswich and Hull you're thinking I want to feel good going into this international break and sometimes you need a little bit of luck and you think of the VAR decision later and listen it probably was a foul but it's one of those ones where sometimes they might look and think there was not too much in it and you need that little bit of luck and you can just see the relief on them and the players at the end of the game and yes for us to be disappointed but I think for Coventry and all the promoted teams to have a win under the belt going into that first international break is great for the league because we don't want to go back to the situation where we had two or three years running where the three promoted teams came up and went back down but not just went back down but like only getting 25 points something like that you want them to make a real fist of it and hopefully that's the case this season well it's been a great first five games of the season and it's been a great first Jamie Carragher-Ponhar is this the first and last or is there more of these to call?

29:37well I can't that's well above my pay grade to tell you anything on that all I can say is I've enjoyed it Thank you very much for having me, and until the next one. Yeah, let's all listen to it. Hey, man, you hungry? Let's order delivery. Yeah, I was thinking... Italian. Burgers? Oh. Game night, just got tense. Two bros on different sides of the fence. Burgers or pasta tonight. Why can't we have food without the fact? With Wonder, you can combine 20 restaurants in one delivery, so no one has to settle. Use code MEALTIME for 50 % off your first Wonder order. Terms apply. See wonder.com slash new customer.