Brentford blow 2-0 lead to draw with Wolves | Thierry Henry's view on Arsenal's playing style

24:51Well, it's starting to look like it's Arsenal's to lose from this point. Seven games left for them. They have a nine-point lead. Manchester City still have a game in hand, but Arsenal can afford slip-ups now. It is very much in their control with nine-point advantage at this stage of the season. They've been waiting 22 years to get their hands on the title. There is still the possibility of the quadruple with Champions League game this week with the Carabao Cup final against Manchester City at the weekend. We will know a little bit more about that before we head into the international break. We thought with Thierry here, with Jamie tonight, a really good opportunity to dive a little bit deeper into Arsenal.

25:28And also, Thierry, because I posed the question before the break, where is the love for this Arsenal team? It was really interesting. The comments of Fabian Herzler, which seemed to spark something after the Brighton game a couple of weeks ago, when he said of this of Arsenal, that's not football, what Arsenal did there. I think we tried to play football. it's not easy to get into rhythm against an opponent who only tries to waste time. Other people have said this Arsenal team are anti-football. So where is the appreciation for a team that are poised right now to become champions? I'm not going to comment on what people say.

26:07I'm going to give you another angle which is in front of everybody to see but not a lot of people want to see that. So for a very long time, we've been accused of being boys, right? Arsenal, of not being able to keep a lead, getting bullied. Can you win ugly? So now that's exactly what a team is doing and actually mastering that. Along the way, did you lose what you were about from when Mikel arrived? sometimes in the game when you try to reach and do something to find a way to be above pep above slot then you you you forget a bit what you wear which is you know i would say three years ago when everyone was like arsenal play really good football but those things were coming out again what i just stated just before and now that you're doing it people are not happy about it look i always say and I talk to Jamie sometimes.

27:10I don't even talk about people. I don't have to like it. Even myself as an Arsenal fan. But I surely respect it. That's the most important thing. And after 22 years, again, I'm not saying we're going to win the league. I'm just saying that at the end of the day, no matter how we're going to do it, I will respect that. And that is for sure. But you don't like watching the team? It's not about watching what I like. It's not about what you like. It's not about what my mom likes or my dad likes. I'm not in a dressing room. I don't know what they're about. I said it here, over there, in that chair.

27:37we asked Mikel Arteta to find a way. He did. Simple as that, whatever I like or not. You have an opinion on whether you like the football. I want to win the league 22 years. I want to win the league. That's a big one for me. Does that go above everything else? Yeah. When you didn't win it for 22 years, yes. Then we might talk about the style next year again. I'm not saying we're going to win it. Understand me well. We can talk about the style, people we said, the money and this and this. Look, in my time, when Mourinho arrived with Chelsea, I think Frank Lampard finished top goalscorer with 13 goals They were very difficult to beat Outstanding on the break Like very difficult to beat Everyone praised Mourinho And rightly so And Chelsea And rightly so Because they found a way to stop the duo Man United Arsenal So well done Whether you like Chelsea or you don't like Chelsea Well done Chelsea So what I'm trying to say here We asked the man And everybody was vocal about again the point that I stated before about Arsenal not being able to win.

28:38We still didn't again, but he's finding a way. And, you know, that's his way. And what's the Arsenal way? My way, George Graham? What is it? What is it? How would you define it? Well, if you think about how the 1-0 Arsenal came about, that's for me closer to George Graham than to what we were playing. And then how they were playing three years ago is closer to us and what Arsene was trying to do. You won under George Graham. You won under Arsene Wenger. So what was the issue here? One thing that I would say that, yes, it is kind of weird in a way, is that how people go about us not wanting the league, winning the league.

29:30Sorry, a lot of people are like, anything but Arsenal winning the league, which I'm sitting here and I'm like, what am I going to mean? And usually you kind of, you know, I wanted them to win the league when I was playing because I wanted Jamie to win the league. I wanted Steve Vigi to win the league. You know, whether I like Liverpool or not, It's just, you know, you root normally for the underdog, for the guy or the team that couldn't do it or fail. But for some reasons, a lot of people don't want Arsenal to win the league. Do you think that's the case, Jamie? Do you think there is sort of, not ill will, but that lack of love from everybody else, from the neutral even?

30:12I think it's very strange. And maybe it's the same at the weekend with the Carabao Cup final. when you have a team like say Manchester City or that was maybe Manchester United in the past who dominate an era most neutrals want the not the underdog but the team who sort of battle them with them we don't want to see them win again it doesn't feel like there is that feeling with Arsenal and Manchester City I think a lot of sort of maybe even Manchester United fans and Liverpool fans even though City is the local rival for United and Liverpool have been fighting City for titles are almost looking and thinking I might rather Manchester City win it There is something about Arsenal and the way they've gone about it, whether you like it or not, whether it's the style of football, whether it's Arteta on the side of the pitch, whether it's what Hertel was saying, these type of things.

30:56There is something about them. Maybe it's the fan base on social media gets a little bit of criticism that maybe rubs people up the wrong way in terms of wanting them to go on. So it is a little bit different what Thierry's just mentioned, how the feeling is for maybe neutral supporters around Arsenal. Maybe that fan base is so vocal on social media because it has been such a long time because they're so desperate to taste that glory of the league title. It has been an interesting journey, hasn't it, under Mikel Arteta? As Thierry makes the point, they were looking for a guy that was going to make that difference to get them over the line.

31:33They found someone who they knew well as a player, someone who'd been on Pep Guardiola's coaching staff at that moment, who they felt was equipped to come in and make a difference. so that's the breakdown Jamie what would be your observations here about this ride under Mikel Arteta I've enjoyed watching it and the thing that absolutely fascinates me is how he's gone about because I think it's almost different to almost any manager we've seen in terms of certainly the Premier League maybe going back a long time I might be wrong but what you've got when he first comes in it's not halfway through a season but it's early in a season they win the FA Cup they win some big scalps and it's not a great team they finish 8th ok but it's not his team the next season they don't get the transfer strategy right it's almost they're buying players older players from Chelsea really doesn't work 8th and that's where I think the club really show them support and sort of stick with them then when they get 5th you can feel something even the fan base are really behind them and they lost out to Tottenham that summer I think I think Conte's team beat them at Tottenham and almost just you know just beat them to the Champions League position but I always remember the last game of the season at Arsenal there was almost there's still this almost feel good factor around the manager that okay we're going somewhere now we then get the second and the second after that

33:01that's when I think there was a shift and the thing why I think Mikel Arteta has done something different that I've not seen before is when he initially came in I think we'd all put him in a box as he is a coach for Pep Guardiola he's going to play Pep Guardiola football at Arsenal and we're going to go for that and I think in that sort of season where they finish fifth season where they finish second for the first time I think the football was fantastic and that's reflected in the goals they were scoring Jamie you know averaging over two a game in those two seasons of 22-23 and 23-24. Was that when they were the best to watch, Thierry, would you say?

33:45Yeah, you know, that's when you could see Odegaard on the ball more often than not. That's where you could see Bukayo also a tiny bit more lively. But I think Jamie is making a great point here that I can reverse on the other side. At one point, you need to find your comfort zone as a coach. I think, as you said, Jamie, he felt obliged to kind of have that Pep Brand style of football. I'm not saying that's the case, but maybe he's more comfortable playing that way. And one thing that I noticed over the years, whatever style of football he was playing, whatever style of football he was playing, this is not a, you know, it's not a bad thing.

34:24That's your trait of character. When sometimes the game was on the line in a nil-nil, or you're one nil up, more often than not in any style, he often thought about not losing the game. Not losing the game. So I said at one point at that moment, I always said the fear of winning started to creep in some of those games. So maybe when he went about it a different way, maybe he's more comfortable in that way. Maybe he didn't maybe fit so much the pep way. I'm just saying, because I don't know, I don't speak to Mikel like that and I'm not in the dressing room, but you need to find your own way of being a coach.

35:05and for me, he did find it. And I talked about the building. I don't know if you saw me at one time and said it's a tall building now and stuff like that. Now it's a solid and tall building. Yes, people might, and I hear people talking about, oh my God, oh my God. I mean, everything that he's doing is part of the game when people talk about set pieces. Like you're not going to score on set pieces. What not? I mean, I don't get it. So I do think personally that is a tiny bit more comfortable because it is more comfortable in this type of situation. He does play, so he does every time. When we go 1-0 up in the game, we tend to play a different way.

35:45But Thierry, what I mentioned before, in terms of what I'm seeing with Mikel Arteta, something I haven't seen before with the managers. If you think of managers who've won the Premier League and it looks like Mikel Arteta's going to, we knew what Klopp was from day one. We knew what Pep was from day one. Don't always get the results straight away, but you know sort of what they are. Ferguson, Winger, You know, you can go through all the managers. With the thing that I find fascinating by Arteta, whether he was comfortable or not, definitely in that first season, that season where they finished fifth, then they finished second, you're thinking of bringing Zinchenko in, Jesus.

36:16They're almost Man City light. That's what we are, Arsenal are. And it's really good football, exciting football. You can see with the goals that they score. The thing that I think is fascinating is he then morphs to almost what you might call a Mourinho-Morstan. Now, I've been calling Arsenal. Arsenal. No, I've been calling Arsenal. And Mikel Arteta, a Jose Mourinho-style team for about two or three years on this programme. Not as a criticism. I think it was taken as a criticism by Arsenal fans. It wasn't. You've got Pep Guardiola and Jose Mourinho, two of the most successful managers in the last 20 years.

36:50Different ways of going about it. The fascinating thing with Mikel is that he's almost started with sort of one's idea and moved to the... You don't normally see that. And I go back to the season, in the first season they finished second where they got beat up at Manchester City late in the season and it cost them the league and ever since then I think if we look at the signings here from Mikel Arteta every signing has been a physical profile that wasn't the case when he first came to the club so after that so it's 23-24 onwards is what you're talking about yeah you just look it's just power and it's strength so that's 23-24 Havertz, Timber, Rice and then follow that with Calafuri and Marino and okay Raheim Sterling that didn't work out so much.

37:32And then you look at these, you know, the profile of players, you know, you think of set pieces, big spend this summer, but it's about power. And the thing that I absolutely love about Arteta here, and he's getting criticism for maybe morphing into this style of football, but too often in football, a manager will talk about having an idea and never veeding from it whatsoever. The big thing with Arteta, it feels like a big shift, but this thing of like, we never change what we do we never change how we play and what you said before you might not like it but you respect it and some of the nonsense that's being spoke about at Arsenal from other people in the game about sort of there'll be an asterisk around their name if they win the league or I don't recognise them as tight is absolute nonsense we analyse football teams on this show every week, all season, every year there's no right or wrong way to play football it's about being the best at what you do.

38:31And right now, whether you like it or not as a Arsenal supporter, they're going to be remembered as the set-piece team. Whether they like it or not, when they win the league in 10 years' time, people will say, it was only set-pieces or whatever. But how could he take on Jürgen Klopp and Pep Guardiola, two of the best teams in European football at that time, with less maybe wages or less spend at that time? He had to find another way and he's done it. And look how that's grown, that sort of reliance or the contribution from set-piece goals, up to 34 % of their goals this season as well. Look, and let me just show you this next graphic that we've got, because part of this story is the personnel behind the scenes.

39:14And Nikola Jove appointed there 21-22, and you see the difference. That spike straight away, that ratio of goals from set-pieces changes pretty much instantly. the Premier League average would be around about the 20 % mark. So they were way below it before he came along. And now they're operating much higher above it. Thierry, was this a realisation that the game is changing and we need to do something about it to compete with the very best? Like Jamie said, and we talk about it obviously so many times, he needed to find a way to beat those guys. I don't think he believed he could outplay his way to the title.

39:55He had to find a way to win it. It's almost now four center backs across the back four. He went with Zyschenko at the beginning to try to roll inside and try to play. There was something that I want to add to what Jamie said before, which is very important. People forget that was his first job. So when he learned on the job at Arsenal, yes, he was an assistant for a very long time, but he needed to find his way of coaching, where he feels comfortable and he does feel comfortable. And yes, you can see the set pieces. And I always say, not only set pieces are important, you can also, you know, people talk about Jouvet and rightly so, and getting to get a guy that can make them better on set pieces.

40:34You can also get a guy to make you better to finishing, to playing at the back. And rightly so, that's what it's paid for. But I go back to what we are saying, and I'm not going to mention other people. I will talk about it from my eyes. At one point, as a fan, you want to see your team succeed in a way. And I will second to what Jamie just said here. You can control the game of football in different ways. Some people like to be on the ball. Some people don't like to be on the ball. You still control the game. And I refer again Mourinho when he arrived in the league and he changed it. Everyone wanted to do a bit of Mourinho at one point.

41:14So this guy did find a way to do it. And he also had to learn on the job and a job like that. Not easy. the team backed him up, the fans were with him a bit, at one point it was a bit difficult, but the board kept him there. And we all, I'll be honest, at one point people were, you know, kind of like, trust the process, trust the process, where are we going? I will also say we put a lot of money on the table to be able to be successful. This is why maybe people are like, you put that amount of money to play that way. Well, people said he had to win this year because of that spend,£230 million.

41:50pounds. Yeah, but because of the seven years and the trust. At one point, I'm sure Mikael will tell you, he wants to give something back and show why you could and can trust him. So he has an opportunity to do that obviously at the weekend. But for me, the big one is the league. For me, the big one is the league because it gives you a different it will be a different feeling. You can attract different players. People might think that they're going to come in and win the league. Again, and you know how I am, Jamie, I'm not going to talk about it's done. I don't get carried away. I don't go overboard like I don't go under it.

42:31But like I said, you have to respect what this man is doing. A lot of people are talking at the moment. I don't even know if they won the league as a player or as a coach. So, you know, it's easy to speak. And I've been a coach for one second. And it's not an easy one. They backed him up and I'm sure he wants to give something back for the choice that he had. Another of those criticisms that came from Fabian Herzog was around time wasting and the time taken over set pieces. And Arsenal have the highest average time before the attacking corner, Risa. 44.5 seconds on average. Is that just another way that opposition fans can have a stick to beat them with, Jamie?

43:13me is that something that that might change moving forward if they do get over the line this year no because listen when you say we all love certain things about certain teams and certain things we don't like about certain teams now it's not just this season something you know the goalkeeper going down we're talking about taking long over now you could argue they're that good at set pieces they actually take the time they make sure they've got all little plans to talk to each other on the way up they've got different variations listen for me that's not the end of the world you know you probably wouldn't expect the best team in the league to take so long off the set piece normally teams middle of the table or lower down trying to slow the game down all the time but listen that's Arsenal's way and they're blue into corners so how can you you know everyone else maybe should take 44 seconds if they get as many goals as they do but in terms of what something here I was saying about the goalkeeper going down I think there is something in that and he's not the only one by the way but it's definitely over the years they've sort of pushed that and that's where I first started almost the Jose in Mourinho comparisons and Diego Simeone of Atletico Madrid.

44:15But even those two managers, you know what you're getting in some ways. They've always been like that. And I don't think, I don't know, I think sometimes is it because we thought Arteta was a certain type and then he's become that. We, you know, maybe there's a little bit more criticism around it or he's almost fooled us in believing he was something now he's turned into something else. No, I'm talking about the marginal gains, the dark hat. They definitely do that. There's no doubt about that. And a lot of teams do. Maybe Arsenal just push it a little bit further. Maybe you expect teams who normally win the league.

44:47But I think the thing that maybe shocks people a bit more is, as you said, is the way he started to think of playing. Then he switched it. But that's called evolution. He evolved. I admire that. Do you understand what I mean? Some coaches, Simeone, you can't make him change. Pep, you can't make him change. Mourinho, also not so much. But maybe because there was a switch so early. But again, he had to learn on the job. He didn't have the six to seven to eight to ten years that those guys had when they arrived in our league, if you know what I mean. So, you know, again, what's going to suit you?

45:21It takes time. Like, for example, if you take me as a player, I wasn't the same player when I was 17 to 25. I wasn't doing the same mistake and doing the same, you know, you learn from your mistake. And at one point, he's showing us that he's learning from his mistakes. Can I ask you about, I said in this show, I think about a month, six weeks ago, that I felt Arsenal lacked a world-class talent in attack. I still believe that, but what I want to ask you is, because we're talking about Mikel and maybe putting the reins on them or maybe when they go 1-0 in front, maybe becoming a little bit more direct, do you think the players aren't, I'm not trying to put you on the spot, but almost aren't world-class or actually he doesn't allow them to sort of have that freedom that maybe other coaches would to go and show what they can do?

46:06It's different. We did something the other day on TV on another channel that I'm not going to mention because I want to be respectful. But it's also what the opposition is giving you. You can, you know, you can talk about, I do think that not only him, I do think that right now the game is a tiny bit too scripted, too coached. Be careful of counters. Is that the game in general? Yes, I do think be careful of counters. Don't dribble. Don't do that. Sometimes I see wingers and the way I was, because the way I used to play, I see wingers in 1v1 and they pass the ball back. You know, they don't cross early.

46:41They don't try to beat their men on the outside. You know, that's when I know you're a good dribbler. Beat your men on the outside. So obviously if you beat your right back or your left back, then you can dislodge something because the centre back has to come. And you free a bit more space for your centre forward inside. But yeah, it's a bit difficult because you know, I showed it to Udi over there again on that thing, like there was more space before between the lines. It's a bit more difficult. So you need also another team to open up to be able to play against them and find a way. Michael said that, didn't he, a few days ago in his press conference?

47:20But again, like he did find a way. He's finding a way. I'm not saying he did find a way because it's not done, but he's finding a way to be efficient and to be good at something. You know, why am I going to show you what we're not good at if I can be good at something? Like, if you smell blood somewhere, are you not going to abuse it? Of course I'm going to abuse it if I can win that way. Do you have any doubts now, Thierry, that they will get over the line? You know what? And again, I'm going to repeat myself, but Jamie will tell you even off air or on air. it's not about doubting. The day I know that we eventually are going to clinch the title, that's when I celebrate.

48:03I don't celebrate before. I don't go like, oh, you know, when we drew against Wolverhampton, I was on that side. And when we scored the goal the other day, I told you I had goosebumps with Darman and everything, but I didn't go around my place at all and started to celebrate. Celebrate, what? You won a game. Well done. I love what happened with Darman. and everything. We have a next game. Let's see what's going to happen next. Then we can celebrate or not. But it's not about doubt. What I know is that there's something that we can control and we are controlling it. But if they get the quadruple, the quadruple, this guy is going to go down in history.

48:43That's the only asterisk he's going to get if he gets the quadruple. But again, obviously that was a joke. I liked it. But I'm not there. I'm really not there because we went from everything that I mentioned before that now everyone said, oh, we can. No. For me, it's win the league. And I know we have a game at the weekend and a final is a final. But if we win the league, it's a massive statement to what we can do after keep that core and build on it. Again, I went a bit too far with that one. Win the league if you can. I don't think, you know, it's going to be as easy as people think. But that's my way, natural way.

49:24If you still have points on the board that you can get, obviously someone can catch you. I'm not going to over-celebrate that one. But like I said, even myself, this is why I don't like to talk too much about other people, even myself. Did I doubt it at one point that we could win with him? Yes, I did, because the results were making me like, I don't know if we can, if we could. He did find a way, you know, and he had to learn on the job, you know, how tough it is to arrive somewhere after Emery, after Arsene Wenger, after me talking or whoever was talking about, he cannot do it, he doesn't know what he's doing, you know, he's too naive sometimes in his way.

50:02He finds a way, he's serious about everything, to the details. And I will still say at times, because of how the game is, it's a bit too scripted. But as a fan, you might be in a situation to win something. I'm personally happy regardless of what I love to see the game or what I like to see or if I enjoy it. 22 years? Listen to me, I don't want to jinx it, but 22 years is a long time. You are there. What an exciting few weeks ahead it might well be for Arsenal fans starting this very weekend. It's sold on the table, isn't it? And what a weekend we've got before then because it starts on Friday night with Bournemouth taking on Manchester United.

50:48Saturday doubleheader Everton-Chelsea from five followed by Leeds-Brentford 7.45.

50:56And then it is an epic Sunday starting with the Tyne-Weir derby. 12 o 'clock kick-off at St James' Park followed by two games at 2.15. Spurs-Forest fighting for their lives. Aston Villa against West Ham United and that is followed by the Carabao Cup final itself. Arsenal taking on Manchester City from 3.30pm. And also a reminder for you that tomorrow there is live tennis for you. Gets underway at 3 o 'clock from Miami on Sky Sports Tennis. Terry, thank you very much. I'll come back, I like the set up. Let's see if you're smiling on Sunday afternoon. I won't say it. I'm travelling, unfortunately.

51:42We'll tell you how it goes. Jamie, thank you very much as well. Two points slipped through Brentford's fingers tonight. It's all a bit too late for Wolves, but they are showing fight at last. Good night from us.

52:02Thanks for listening to the Sky Sports Premier League podcast. Don't forget to hit follow so you don't miss an episode.