Kostoulas overhead kick rescues point for Brighton | Carra and Henry discuss manager candidates for Man Utd & Real Madrid

27:12That's the question for me, in all fairness. I know we have a lot of names that we're going to talk about, but what's the identity of the club now? What's the philosophy of the club now? What does Manchester United say to you, traditionally? Well, in my time, it was about winning, no matter how, especially when they were playing us. They were playing a different way. They adapted to situation in terms of how they were going to go about some games. Like, they played us differently than other teams, and they had flair, they were direct, they needed to be direct, they could fight and win. When you think about Man United and my time, you think about a team that's there to win, no matter how.

27:49But I go back to what we're talking about. My time is gone, long gone. What's the DNA of the club now? What are you trying to do now? That's what normally should allow you to make sure that you can go and pick whoever's going to come to try to fit your way and not having someone that's going to come to put their way in and then another one come and then they try to put their own style and then another one come and then they put their own style. So I give you an example of, I think we're all surprised when, in a good way, when Vincent Kompany got the job to Bayern Munich. But they looked at it, that's the guy that we want that's going to fit our DNA.

28:32whether I liked it, you liked it or not, they were sure about it because of what they have within. And the environment that you create normally should give you a clear path of who you want to select and give him a chance to evolve at that club and get better. Do you think anybody in England has ever been brave enough to run their club like that? The way you're talking about Bayern Munich, I'm thinking of Ajax and Barcelona. and the point you're making about Vincent Kompany which I think the bravest thing you can do when you talk about our DNA it's about being brave to say okay we're going to appoint a guy who didn't have his best season or wasn't the greatest season at Burnley was ridiculed in England a little bit when he got the Bayern Munich job a little bit how's Vincent Kompany got that job because in England we can't associate a big club bringing a manager in who hasn't been successful you mentioned sort of Bayern Munich and Vincent Kompany for me the ones I always think of Ajax and Barcelona and the two coaches at Barcelona that really stick out to me both on the Champions League Frank Reichard got the Barcelona job because he had a similar philosophy you know the Dutch way probably had a relationship with Johan Cruyff I think his job before that was Sparta-Rotterdam not a huge club in Holland and also hadn't done particularly well now that's a really brave thing to do I don't think Manchester United Liverpool, Chelsea anybody Manchester City in England would appoint a manager just because he has their idea but has failed in the job before.

30:04Luis Enrique is another one. Now we see him as maybe the best manager in Europe. He's won the Champions League with two different teams. He didn't have a good time at Celta Vigo. He didn't have a good time at Roma. But Barcelona still appointed him. That's a DNA. That's a club's DNA. And I don't think anybody in England would be brave enough to make those appointments. But do you, that's my point, do you call it brave or is it what they're about? You know, we can go both ways. But it's difficult to appoint a manager who's not been successful in his last job. I think that'd be really difficult.

30:37Would you actually have a look at Liverpool and Jurgen Klopp? Yes, he had been successful previously, but in his last season there, they were down the wrong end of the table, but they still said, he's the guy for us. Yes, and what they did was they looked at the underlying numbers. That was a big part of Liverpool's success. But what was really interesting is the day Brendan Rodgers got sacked, me and you were together, famous hand on the thigh. But I was asked about Ancelotti or Klopp on that show. And don't forget, that was almost 10 years ago. For me, it was Klopp. And the reason I say that, and it's the reason why, when we're going to get to Ancelotti shortly about Manchester United, I see Ancelotti as the guy who comes in at a top club, who's already there right now.

31:18At that time, for me, Liverpool were where Man United are right now. They don't just need a top manager, they need someone who's got the energy. 24-7, that drive to push that club on. It's not a guy who's almost like a manager who sits there and sort of makes decisions in terms of buying players. It's a relentless drive every day. That's what I think Manchester United... So whether you realise what you've done, you've already said energy and drive, you said someone who wins. I mean, that is a criteria for you in terms of Manchester United, but we're looking for a coach or a manager. That's a different ballgame, but to go back to finish with Vincent Kompanyan, an outstanding move from Bayern Munich because it wasn't clear for everybody to see what he was going to achieve and he's doing extremely well.

32:01Now to go back, and we talked about it on another channel that we work on, there is a difference between a manager and a coach. And we've seen the situation with Xabi Alonso, unfortunately for him, he's been in a situation where apparently he said that he was coaching too much, that he lost the dressing room, which at times in situations When you are at a club with big character, at times you need to manage a bit more than coach. If you understand what I mean. You can't go and speak to guys the same way that you are speaking to guys in bracket at a lesser club. In bracket, again, lesser players that are a bit...

32:41You know, you don't speak to Cristiano Ronaldo the same way you will speak to a youngster. A youngster, you can say to him, in the last 10 minutes, can you play right back for me? Because that's how it is, I'm the boss. You don't ask that to Cristiano Ronaldo. or if he doesn't want to wake up in the morning to go for breakfast because that's what you do as a coach. This is when we're going to do the tactic, when we walk. We're going to put the shape of the team in whatever walk we do in the park on the side of the hotel. And Cristiano Ronaldo will look at you or whoever that's going to be big in that team.

33:10At that moment, you need to manage the egos of the players. We've pulled together a list of names. There are different bands for these names. So there are those who are in jobs currently that may well not be in jobs after the World Cup. So those managers on the left column and on the right hand column, some really big names who are available for work right now. We've also got a select list, shall we say, of those who may have been mentioned in dispatches already for Manchester United and one or two others that we've added on there as well. some of those who are in work and of course at the bottom Liv Fabregas doing very well another win for him tonight with Como and Michael Carrick at the bottom as well so are we talking a winning manager who's got energy and drive is there anyone we can chalk off just because of club affiliations Jamie before we actually get into the meat and drink of it what do you think?

34:13I'll tell you straight away we will not be managing Manchester United is Jürgen Klopp so that's out Xavi Alonso as well are you sure? no he cannot do that why can't he do that? well he can't because listen his affiliation he has decided with Liverpool that can't happen he's moving on very quickly Zinazine Zidane for me is almost like a younger version than sort of Ancelotti almost suits Real Madrid but maybe I'm wrong so are you thinking at this point more coach than manager because Manchester United have the sporting directors set up in place Listen, a bit of both, you need to manage a huge football, can you handle the press?

34:55If you're talking manager, exactly, someone who can communicate, handle the press, do they have to have the charisma in a job like that? Listen the areas that we're looking for and Manchester United be looking for, there should only really be two or three names on this list or maybe three or four, for me, I've obviously looked at this before. Alright, keep going then You're doing quite well here. Mureska no I mean I think he's a really good coach Xavi is one where you think Barcelona he won the league there but enough experience for Manchester United as well he still only had a couple of years as a manager did well probably got that you know football and IQ if you like you just said you want experience as well then listen for me let's go Ancelotti for me wouldn't have the energy and drive to sort of get Manchester United experience but not too much yeah 38 day chumps no if Roberto Martínez does a brilliant job let's say you get to the World Cup final you win the World Cup there's no doubt I think Roberto is probably ready for it the one thing that he probably hasn't done in his managerial career so far is managing an elite football club so but he'd have to do something really special now Pochettino is a little bit the same as me with Ancelotti a little bit I think if you were talking about the Pochettino or Tottenham but I think what happened to Chelsea he almost became a manager and almost sort of sat back and that was the reason why I think they went for Moresca.

36:16They wanted a young, energetic coach. Scaloni, for me, is a no in that he doesn't know the league. So you're looking at probably two there for me in terms of Thomas Tuchel. He's been in the Premier League before. He's obviously a top manager. The thing I like about him is I still think he's got that energy and drive and spikiness about him. He's gone into the England squad and he's ruffled feathers with some of the biggest players there. Now, I'm not saying that has to happen in every job he's in, but there's something about him he just feels like he would he'd sort of go to war for your club and he'd be fighting against the other clubs and he'd have something about him Nagelsmann listen I don't know everything about him but I do look at a coach he's got a big reputation he's probably got a lot to prove as well in some ways so that was the international side of things now when I look at Grazina straight away I'd say no because of the system straight away Iriola has done a brilliant job and is linked to a good top job, but for me, Bournemouth to Manchester United is a huge jump.

37:16It is. I'd say the same with Marco Silva, who again, I'm a big fan of. And no disrespect to those managers or the club I'm going to mention, I think the next step for them would be Tottenham. You know, if Iriola, Marco Silva, that for me feels more Tottenham-like than Manchester United. That would be the next step for them. You've got Valverde there now, a really experienced coach. Again, not for me, for Manchester United. De Zerbe, brilliant coach. but he's liable to go to war with them in about six weeks isn't he? that's what it feels like to me you mean with the owners? yeah with the owners now Luis Enrique you would absolutely have him all day the semi-only one is really interesting and I was speaking to Gary on the podcast last week about United's DNA and we've just had a chat about DNA and where we see it and we probably didn't go into enough detail probably on that than what we've just chatted about.

38:13But it's interesting that Roy, who obviously loves the club, Gary's the same, they have both mentioned Diego Simeone at different points probably in the last sort of four or five months about they wouldn't mind seeing him for Manchester United. Now that for me almost goes away from what a club's DNA is because he is a defensive coach. And that's what I go back to in this country. We pick managers on the success they have at clubs. And that's what I always say about a club's DNA. hey, you can't then ask a manager who you're bringing in because he's successful. It's like Cameron asking him to not play three at the back.

38:44It's like you're getting him from here to bring what he did there here. You can't then ask him to change. And that goes back to, again, we don't do that in this country. Maybe it'll change in the future, but we don't. Should Simeone be someone that they talk about? What would they be getting? But again, my first thing, if we were here, as this is false, but if we were here talking, I would have had, first and foremost, an internal discussion of what we want to be. and I know I'm going back to the same thing that we'll have a clear view of who we're going to get. And I think that sometimes clubs are bypassing that discussion about where...

39:18They're having this discussion. No, but which direction that we want to take. Then it becomes clearer. I know what you mean. Exactly what we said before, like, you know, Raikard getting the opportunity maybe for not having... But you did say winner. You said that they should be looking for a winner. We were definitely crossing Fabregas out. I said that Man United were a winning team. I didn't say they need to look for a winner. I said that in my time, when you asked me what Man United was, I said in my time, a winning team. So we crossed Fabregas out. Thierry, are you happy enough? Oh, yes, please.

39:51But I think we are watching one of the next big coaches here in Cesc. No, joking aside, because obviously I don't know if people know, but, you know, I'm a, you know, whatever. I'm not going to go into my special. Let me fill in the blanks. You are a part owner of Como, where Cesc has taken its first steps. I keep on saying no, but if we talk about the magnitude of the coach, of what he's doing right now, it's actually outstanding. Really, what he's been doing in Cesc. Sixth in Serie A right now? Yes, you know, that's his third season. First as an assistant. He went up, obviously, last year. We finished mid-table, and now we're six.

40:27What's impressive about him, Thierry, and the way that he works? Just the way he goes about stuff. Just the way he sees the game. We lost 4-0 against Inter away from home. He said, I'd rather lose 4-0 than wait for Inter to mod us in front of our box. And you're looking at that and people are like, well, that's a bit crazy. You conceded 4-0. But when you look at it, we didn't concede a lot of goals. He's still trying to put pressure high, trying to build with maybe players that you would say you shouldn't go with that type of player playing that way. And I've been talking now, obviously, I was looking on my phone.

41:03We won 3-0 away at Lazio tonight. so what he's been doing at the moment it's brilliant The rest of the names are named we come to Eddie Howe next I'm a huge fan of Eddie Howe and I heard what Roy said last week and I'm with him I think the type of football when you see Newcastle at their best high energy pressing going forward that is not just Manchester United that's a lot of the top clubs that's how they want to play on the front foot the real big thing that I like about Eddie Howe is how he handles the press you've got to be able to handle the press as a Manchester United manager it's the club that's on the back pages more than any other club in this country and I think Newcastle we probably don't think it from the outside but when you're inside Newcastle and you live in that city that is the constant thing and he handles it brilliantly and what he also does that I think will really help Manchester United is Manchester United have a problem right now of no matter who they bring in as players young players a lot of them fail and they don't go on to realise the potential I think Eddie Howe's a great coach so I'd leave Eddie Howe in there there's no chance of Arba Lauer getting it and I'm actually going to cross out Michael Carras and the reason I say that You've been very praiseworthy with your analysis earlier Yeah I was but I go back to something I said last week and I'm not going to change my mind we've done analysis tonight of Michael Carrick being really positive rightly so it was fantastic and we've done really positive stuff from Liam Rosina at Chelsea and his idea and what he's doing right now but I go back to it and I can't change my opinion because I always think this when a Liverpool manager gets appointed do I believe this guy can win us the league?

42:36can he do it it doesn't mean he will do it but I've got to believe he can I don't believe Manchester United could win the league with Michael Carrick as the manager or Chelsea could win the league with Liam Rosina as a manager I'm not trying to be disrespectful I'm only giving my honest opinion of what I feel and their sort of background experience as managers, what they've done in the past you've got to be special when you think of the managers who won the Premier League there's something really special about 99 % of them I would say and I just think probably Michael Carrick likes that and Liam Ruggini likes that I might be proven wrong but that's why I would take Michael Carrick out of that so I'm left with So we've got four names left Tuchel Nagelsmann Enrique and Eddie Howe has he crossed off anyone that we should put back on that Jerry?

43:20Again for me and I know you you're going to say I'm crazy I'm not crazy like we're playing a game here but this is reality and reality is what do they want by United? Because we're sitting here, again, what do they want? I don't feel it from the outside. I do not feel it. I don't feel what they're looking at. I said to you, Bayern went to get Vincent Kompany. We talked about Luis Enrique. We talked about Frank Rijkaard. We can talk about... You can agree or disagree. You can see what type of coaches they want. I don't know at Man United. I really don't know what they are about now, what they want to achieve, and what is the DNA I'm talking about now when I watch the games.

44:06And what Michael Carrick did at the weekend was brilliant. But then maybe in two weeks we're going to talk about something else. So what do they want? How are they going to go about it? And it should be clear in order to get one of those guys that we're talking about on the list that Jamie picked. Well, that's Jamie's final four. I just wondered if you wanted to throw Michael Carrick back on there before we make it a final five for him to... I'm just saying that at one point, if a guy is in position and does very well, if they get Champions League football, why can he not get a chance to maybe be re-interviewed, however it is, and to keep his job?

44:49Why not? But again, this is us speculating. And I know it's fun, it's a game, but I can't bypass the fact that, But especially, I'll be honest with you, especially because I played for Barcelona at the end of my career. And that impacted me. I said it so many times. I'm an Arsenal fan and that will never change. But the way they see it on the other side, if you don't fit how the house is, it doesn't matter who you are or what. And also, it doesn't matter what you have done before. You fit what they believe in. You can come, if you know what I mean. But what are you in order to make that decision?

45:27So all those clubs have given you permission and countries have given you permission to speak to their coaches. That's also not available. There is a slight caveat to this list is that all these people are actually in work with respect to their countries and clubs. If you're Manchester United, I think everybody will want Lewis Enrique. They'll have watched how PSG played last year. We're talking about a guy who's won the Champions League twice. I don't think they'll get Lewis Enrique. I think there's a good chance they could end up with Thomas Tuchel. You know what's also important in all of that?

45:58You have managers in history that could do both. Because we talked about managing and coaching. Some people are so blind into how they want to play, they don't want to change, they don't want to adapt to the guys. At one point you have to let the players play. We've seen Ancelotti struggling at Everton in terms of how they were playing. he goes at Real Madrid, he manages players, he has better players, he went on to win the Champions League and so many times in time the games and what a manager he is. Then you have a guy like Luis Enrique and Pep Guardiola. Because they have the Balsa DNA, they can bring that to you.

46:39They can coach and they can manage. Pep is ruthless with his management. That's a fact. I don't have an issue with that. as I said tactically he's the best I've ever had but he's ruthless with the management but he will do that and tactically he goes to details that you will not understand if you're not equipped with your brain to understand what he wants but he has both Riz and Riquet has both you have managers and a coach at the same time when you get those guys very good right we've done it for Manchester United they're delighted to have their man in place so we've been rehired by Real Madrid Leave me alone, leave me alone.

47:19Oh, no, we're re-hired. With Madrid. With Madrid. Leave me alone, I'm bossa. Jamie, come on, let's rebuild this shortlist. We'll do this again. We'll do the same thing, everybody. I'll tell you what, maybe you could just do the candidates, underline the ones you think should be the candidates rather than scrubbing everyone else out. The thing I think with Real Madrid, and listen, you know better than me, and you said a great line before, where not just Alonso, So you could maybe throw this at other people in the past. Carlos Kieros went to sort of remedy. Too much coaching, not of managing. My point would be, who are these people right now who aren't obsessed with coaching?

47:59Young managers or coaches coming in. Are we talking about something that's a dying breed in the game now? Is Ancelotti almost the last breed of that type of manager? Everybody who's coming in, you're talking about Cesc being a coach now. Lewis Enrique, Xavi Alonso. All these young coaches we think are one of the biggest jobs in the world. They don't want to manage, they want to coach. That might come later on, maybe a bit more experience. I don't know. Do you think those people are out there now to coach Real Madrid who their players will actually accept? On this one, Dave, yes, I'm going to say it here and not talk about my time and what I think of the club.

48:32With Real Madrid, you have to win no matter what. It doesn't matter. You need a winner. I don't know who you're going to pick in this or what. With Barcelona, you have to win well. in Madrid you have to win it doesn't really matter you can win a Champions League and get the sack at Real Madrid I think in terms of some of those names on the international I don't think Ancelotti is probably going to come back but could he Didier Deschamps or Pochettino you have to win always at Madrid it's a tough it's a tough but my point here they feel to me like managers now in terms of what we're talking about it's not just like this is the way I'm going to play it almost manager situation you think of Deschamps and maybe Mbappe's relationship as well is that something you could see?

49:15I don't know what DJ is going to want to do after that long spell with the national team and how demanding it is also on the coach, especially being at that place. But like I said, as you can see, I don't want to name names because I have too much respect for coaches that are in place, coaches that are going to maybe, you know, he's there, Abeloa is there, you don't know what's going to happen. he looks like that he might not stay that's not on me but one thing I know at Real Madrid you're getting judged whether you're a player or a coach on what you are not doing what you did and what you are doing is a tough one it's what you're not doing I'll just put the line you go Jimmy you go Jimmy Jürgen Klopp I'll help you I just don't think Jürgen Klopp is a Real Madrid manager I just I don't see that in terms of sort of pressure and energy it just doesn't seem to suit them so I'm going to say so today I think Roberto Martinez maybe you know the Spanish influence or is he too much of a Barcelona man maybe we've got Poch who I think is probably more of a manager than a coach right now probably needs a good World Cup I would say I don't see anyone on the other side who I think could but Lewis Enrique has played for both clubs hasn't he Barcelona, Real could he manage both I don't know being so tight with Barca I don't know let's go back to our list would you bring Zinedine Zidane back?

50:51he's going to get the French job isn't he? we all know where he's going is it Gareth Southgate? oh no he's not getting that job oh wow wow I was struggling for inspiration on this list I hope he's not watching wow I don't think he wants to work in football anyway he's not going to be talked about by us I just think Thierry's right. That club is like, find a way to win. It's a complete opposite to Barcelona. But I don't think there's those people in the game as much now. What we associate a Real Madrid manager as, Adele Bosque, you know, an Ancelotti, guys who I think it's a little bit simplistic to say they don't do too much coaching, but it's almost keep the players happy.

51:32So we've got a little shortlist there. Thierry, I just want to ask you before we go, there's our little shortlist. Yeah, it's not bad, is it? Jamie asked you this question about you know is it a new wave of young coaches that don't manage but is it not still the same case and we might be talking about people like Cesc Fabregas here that actually the very best coaches can still do both things, they can be elite coaches but also they've got the intelligence, the communication skills, the charisma and the confidence to be really good managers as well you can only find out when those guys are going to be in situation when you have to deal with the guy of the team or two or three because they broke the rules or because they're not doing what they what they're supposed to do tactically how are you going to go about it are you going to lose him lose them eventually you're losing your job at the end of the day players are going to stay, you're gonna go.

52:33So you need to find a way to make sure that you can have those guys in your hand and they can perform for you. You have to give them a certain freedom, if you know what I mean. But not lose the fact that you are the manager and you take decisions. So it's gonna have to be at times something that you kind of... We all were in the dressing room, Jamie, when you know that some guys Those guys usually make you win games, right? We all know, like someone arrived late. Jimmy, did you see him arriving late? Jimmy, did you see him arriving late? No, I didn't see him. No. Another guy, he's late. Yeah, he's late.

53:13We're going to find him. We want to look at it. But you have some guys, and I saw you mention it sometimes, that you have some guys that do get a pass. So are you going to bypass that, you as a coach and your principals? sometimes because the guy is making you win, which we can all argue the fact that maybe you shouldn't allow that. Did you learn that or experience that yourself? Yes, I did. I'll be honest. I had rules with my team. You miss the bus, the bus leaves, you take a Uber. You miss the bus at wherever we were training. You miss training, you don't train. But you're playing. I'm not going to punish you for not playing when you're my best player, for example.

53:55I had Michael Olysees arriving late. I'm sure Michael won't mind me saying that. And you know when you look at your watch, you look at your watch, it's 248. And I can see the players looking at their watch. The only player missing is Michael Olysees, my best player. They're looking at me. I can see the players touching each other and go like, you know, type of... And I didn't flinch. Okay? Three o 'clock, closed the door. The guy, the press officer was like, Michael is in the corridor coming. Close the door. Three o 'clock, three o 'clock. But I didn't punish him not playing the day after or that day or whatever he was.

54:31I don't know if he was on the day or the day before. I closed the door, did the meeting, came in with my assistant after. We watched the meeting alone. We explained what was supposed to happen the day after. And he played. Why am I going to shoot myself in my foot alone for not playing my best player just because he was late for a meeting? In my time, that wasn't accepted. The way I was before, I was mad inside. I was mad. I was like, why is he doing this? But what's the bigger picture here? Us to win or what I believe is right at that particular moment that he is disrespecting his team because he's late or myself?

55:14Put your ego on the side. This guy has to play. That's my best player. That's what I said. There's a difference on being too much of a guy that coach on your principles or whatever principle you have. And a manager that will go, guys, okay, that's not the most important thing here. We need to win tomorrow. And I have to say, I changed. You asked me at the beginning. I wanted to be in control of everything. You're going to burn your wings. You're not going to win with players. So you need to have a bit of a mix. I agree with you. That will be the perfect combo. but ultimately manage a bit more than coach, than coaching.

55:49And I can understand you want to be on point. And at the very beginning, I made that mistake and I changed. You learn. Very interesting. Thank you, Thierry. And if Manchester United want to borrow Jamie to help on the recruitment process... I wasn't in this as Jamie. I'll gladly take you to the championship. We'd be very happy to loan him out for as long as you want.

56:15but we need you back on Sunday, Jamie. This is the weekend. Saturday Night Football. Bournemouth take on Liverpool. Super Sunday. Three games at two. Palace, Chelsea, Newcastle, Villa and Brentford Forest. And not forgetting Arsenal, Manchester United which kicks off at 4.30. Cracking game. And Jamie Carragher will be there for extra time at 7.30 on Sunday evening and back in the M &F hot seat to watch Everton leads. and no doubt choosing someone else's manager for them this time next week. Who knows what can happen? A week is a long time in football. Who knows which manager that might be? Jamie, thank you.

56:54And Thierry, thank you very much. Thanks for being a good sport and being with us here this evening. What a goal we saw from Brighton tonight to level it up at the Amex.

57:09Thanks for listening to the Sky Sports Premier League podcast. Don't forget to hit follow so you don't miss an episode.