Spoils shared in fiery London derby as Caicedo sees red

0:28This is the Sky Sports Premier League podcast. The full 12 rounds without a knockout punch. A man advantage but the league leaders could not get out of Stamford Bridge with the win they craved. Each denies the other the perfect 10 to a wonderful week. And the gap between them is unchanged. Chelsea down to 10 when Caicedo saw red in the first half. They had a lead against the odds when Chalaba rose early in the second. and Marino cancelled it out just before the hour with a header of his own, and they have to shake hands, Alan, on a share of it. Yeah, full-blooded London derby, that. As I said, Arsenal not quite at their best, couldn't make the man advantage count in this second half, but after the midweek exertions, maybe a few tired legs on their part, but Chelsea, full marks to them for what they put into this.

1:25One of the best performances, I think, under Mareska. And they'll both gladly, I think, take a point in the end. So a second successive Premier League away game in which Arsenal have spilt points, but Chelsea don't really reel them in. Still between them, half a dozen points. And Manchester City, who are perhaps the biggest beneficiaries of all of this. Chelsea 1, Arsenal 1. Dave. Thank you, Peter. They are, though, still unbeaten anywhere since August, Arsenal. Well, that said, Theo, look at these expressions here, the looks on the Arsenal faces. Do you think they are seeing this as an opportunity missed?

2:05Yeah, no, of course. You know, we mean, Studges are playing against 10 men and you're disappointed as a player if you don't get a result because you expect to win now with the extra man like Alan was saying in comms. But they would have taken this, of course, at the start of the game. We all understand that. But it's still not to take away what Arsenal have done up until this point. Yes, they'd be disappointed in win today, of course, to have a bit more of a gap with Chelsea. However, it's not, like Alan was saying there, there were some tired legs, there's no excuses, they'd be disappointed, they need to win that today, they understand that.

2:34However, it's not going to derail them for what they want to achieve this year. Chelsea are the closest rivals at this moment in time, they just kept them at bay and that's all it was today. A better point then for Chelsea? I think it's a better point, absolutely. you know playing the game with 10 men for close to 55 60 minutes you're thinking to yourself playing against a team of Arsenal's quality you would have anticipated they would have created more clearer chances Chelsea defended extremely well in the second half I thought Trevor Chaloba was absolutely brilliant and Rhys James were magnificent throughout the whole game collectively they were close to each other they were you know speaking to each other throughout the whole game the communication had to have been great for them to be able to pull a result out of the bag like this, I think the expectation would have been that, you know, Chelsea are going to fold and Arsenal are going to go away and win this game and run away with it, but they stuck to the task, the manager made changes at the right times and ensured there was fresh legs on the pitch, a fantastic performance from Chelsea overall and they'll be going home on the happier side tonight.

3:34And from that man, Rhys James, who was terrific, wasn't he, for Chelsea, he's emerged as a real leader for them, hasn't he? And one a piece it finishes, just as it did here last season. It feels that both teams have made great strides since then.

3:53And that wraps the weekend, which started with Brentford beating Burnley by three goals to one. Two more for Thiago there. Newcastle United getting their first away win of the season. It came at Everton yesterday evening. City needed a 91st-minute winner from Phil Foden. Two he scored in the game to see off Leeds United. Sunderland came from two down to win. for the first time ever in the Premier League. Bournemouth on the receiving end of that and Fulham winning at Spurs last night by two goals to one. Early today, Manchester United coming from behind at Selhurst Park through Xerxes and Mount to beat Crystal Palace, their first home defeat of the season.

4:30Villa winning in the all-Midlands tussle, another long-range goal, this time from Kamara, two goals from Brighton at Nottingham Forest, scored by the Cowper and Stefano Simas, his first in the Premier League, gave them victory there. And Liverpool back to winning ways as well. Isak on the score sheet in the Premier League for the first time for Liverpool. Cody Gakpo getting their second and won all here at Stamford Bridge. So you can scan that QR code. It'll take you straight to the Sky Sports app. Even if you didn't have time to scan it, get yourself to the Sky Sports app. You'll see all the goals and the highlights there.

5:03And this is how we stand up to 13 games. Wolves still bottom, still without a win. Eight points adrift of Burnley. And the other newly promoted side, Leeds United, one further ahead. West Ham out just on goal, scored right now. Then come Forrest and a gap to the rest. With Bournemouth at the top of the bottom right now. Spurs in that bottom half. Liverpool climbing up to eighth. Manchester United up to seventh. Brighton climbing today up to fifth. Villa into the top four. Chelsea now third. Their gap to Arsenal is six points. City are five behind the leaders' arsenal.

6:13Saka, it's Saka's cross, Moreno's in there! And the Gunners strike back!

6:22Well how valuable have his goals been for Arsenal. That goal came with half an hour still to go against Chelsea's 10, but Arsenal couldn't find the winner. Maurice James played such a big part in that. Let's get his views on the 90 minutes now with Patrick Davison. Well, Rhys, well played. A real battle of a London derby. I get you pretty proud on the whole of the way you pushed them to the limit today. Yeah, it's obviously disappointing to come away with only one point. We went down to 10 men pretty early in the game and that made it difficult. We had a lot more of the ball when it was 11 v 11.

7:00Going down to 10 made it more difficult. That really says something, that you stood here disappointed against a team like that, given that they had that man advantage for so long. Does that tell you about the progress you've made? No, I think everyone can see where we are, what we're fighting for. I think today was a big statement. Even though we wanted to win, there's lots of positives to take from that. How were you able to give them so many problems tactically in that first 30-40 minutes before Kaissado got the red card? No, we worked hard. There's a lot of analysis and hard work from the managing staff that sets us up the right way and wants us to play and perform in a certain way that he thinks will hurt them.

7:43Physically, in that midfield particularly, did it feel like a game on the edge, looking from the sideline, it almost felt like a red card was maybe inevitable in that match? I mean, if you look at the amount of yellows there were, I thought there was going to be one more red. Oh, even after Caicedo? Yeah, there was maybe seven or eight players on yellows throughout both teams. Why do you think that was? It was a London derby. Right. Everyone wants to win this game. Daft question. Yeah. How did you enjoy the battle in that midfield? There was a time where it was maybe last season, unusual to see you in there, but now I'm going to give you the player of the match award in a minute or two.

8:23So you're able to match top players and run a game now? No, I think Arsenal have been at the top for the last few years. Playing them, we knew it wasn't going to be easy. Their midfield is tough but we've done what we could today and tried to play our game and hurt them off the ball. Did you get a view of the red card for Moises? No, I haven't seen it back so I have no comment on that. What did the manager say at half-time about reshaping you? He changed the formation slightly. We knew we weren't going to have the ball as much and they were going to come and come. We had to soak up the pressure and try and catch them on the counter.

9:05now, which, you know, we did a few times, but, you know, we didn't have the final touches. And as you said already, though, despite the disappointment, a statement performance matching them like that. Yeah, I think, you know, I'm proud of the boys. It was, you know, electric, you know, here at Stamford Bridge today. And, you know, we take a point and move forward. Well done, Rhys. You are, as I said earlier, the player of the match. Thank you. Well done. Thank you. Well done, mate. Yes, well done to Rhys James, player of the match today. How pleased can Chelsea be with that performance? and how pleased can Rhys James be with his own performance today?

9:36I think firstly for Chelsea, they'll be very pleased. I think the manager will be in that dressing room congratulating the players for sticking to the task and understanding it was a naive tackle by Casado. But how focused they were to ensure that Arsenal weren't going to get clear chances. They worked tirelessly as a team. Everybody, every last one of them gave absolutely everything and that's what it's all about in order to be successful. You've got to sacrifice yourself as an attacker, for sure, when you've got 10 men. It's important for you as one of the attackers to not necessarily think about scoring goals.

10:11And usually you'd reserve your energy to score goals, whereas in this case, you reserve your energy to defend and ensure that you're making it difficult for the opposition. As for Rhys James, I mean, we're talking about a player who's been in the first team environment now for many years and has become a senior player for this group. He's been at the club nearly 20 years and struggled with injuries throughout his career, specifically over the last couple of years. But there's no doubt he's an absolutely unbelievable football player. The versatility he brings to this team, the set pieces that he can bring.

10:45He's got all the tools to be able to play in midfield and to play right back. He was an absolute beast today. Gave him so much running power in midfield. He was very, very experienced in professional performance for me. and he played very, very well. We were saying, Theo, there aren't many players with England who play in one position for their club and another for their country. Yes, brilliant. It's very unique right now. It's very unique as well. It's a great, not a problem, but it's another option that obviously Thomas Tuchel can have in certain games because his delivery itself, set pieces which are so important for a lot of clubs and a lot of national teams these days.

11:19But what I'm really pleased to see in his development is his growth and his leadership skills because he's obviously been questioned in the past about is he a leader, is he a captain? it clearly is on today's performance. You're playing against Declan Rice and the other Casado next to him and he's playing the match. For me, looking at the Arsenal sense, they'd be disappointed. They didn't test him enough. But he was absolutely outstanding today. He really was from start to finish. The game was really in the balance, wasn't it? I suppose the sense was that Arsenal were going to push for a winning goal, having equalised with half an hour to go.

11:50We had to wait, really, Theo, until the last seconds of the game for this moment. What has happened here is because Jokeres surely has got to be screaming at Timber to get out of the way of that. This is when you get desperate towards the end of games and you want to obviously commit loads of bodies forward. You always feel though, if a right back's in this position, I would be asking a question to Jokeres now. I'd be pulling him and just say, look, this is my space. This is why I'm on the pitch. But look, he's been doing it all season, but just, yeah, he'd be disappointed with that. Jokeres, yes, I think he would have been calling it.

12:22There's no doubt of that. I think we wouldn't see that. but it just annoys me and players are just out of position. But I understand why Arsenal committed so many bodies, but that's what they faced today. And it was disappointing on their side. They had a late let-off for Chelsea. Very much so. I'm there thinking, Timbalt! And I'm like, all of a sudden, it's like, you better move. I need to be the guy coming on the pitch and attacking this thing. And you're thinking to yourself, just move out the way. But your goals are sometimes too nice, I think. I'm signing he'd have been fuming he'd have been fuming about that of course you're going home thinking to yourself I want to say something to him you know but you know what he's in my spot and at the end of the day he got the leap he had the power the connection was all off would have been some story wouldn't it for Jochores back from injury coming off the bench and that was just going to be his moment to to win the game for Arsenal in these late stages it didn't happen and I suppose Arsenal were favourites really Theo after that red card in the first half to Moises Caicedo Daniel spoke at half time about it looking more More like a red card once it is slowed down.

13:26When you saw it first time, did you think red straight away? No, not initially because I felt the referee actually continued to play the game. In that sense, if you think it's a red card, you're quick to react in that position because considering this is one of the best referees in the Premier League. He's actually got a really good view of it, probably better than anyone. And like Daniel was saying at half-time, the delay where he's obviously got someone in his ear just trying to re-refer like we were saying to give him a yellow just to delay the decision so they could just really monitor it in that sense.

13:53I think that's the problem with VR. I think you need to initially go with your initial decision straight away. And then you can obviously react in that sense. But I just think the fact he's delayed it and allowed the game to continue. Normally red card, you see it's very red card. So I think the right decision was made. Because the game actually played on, didn't it? Down towards this end in front of the game. So he might have wanted to see what happened in the rest of that phase of play. And then he pulled out a yellow card almost to mark it, didn't he? Yeah, no, to mark obviously what he was going to commit to.

14:21But look, I just think Caseta does not need to be doing that in that position anyway. You know, we could speak about VAR and all that side of things. However, I think Caseta is the one who you kind of felt it was coming from his initial start of the game. I really felt that it was going that way. And the question, what the VAR said watching it was the straight leg is key, Daniel. Excessive force as well used in that moment. Do you agree with that? Yeah, it is almost like a little jump into it, and that's probably what it is. You can see the force is strong. It almost, if he doesn't pull his leg away, it could have been a lot worse.

14:57Because of those two factors I mentioned, therefore endangering the opponent as well. Yeah, and it looks like it, to be honest. You wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of one of those challenges. Casado's a top-class football player, and he'll be absolutely feeling with himself right now, knowing that he's made a big mistake that's going to cost his team in terms of his availability moving forward. And their fourth red card of the season, twice as many as any other team at this stage, which is not ideal, 13 games into a season when you are potentially pushing on for a title. Having said all that, they still managed to find a way to get themselves in front.

15:27Did that come as a surprise at the start of the second half? It did, I think, for everyone in the arena, how loud they screamed. You know, it was a magnificent crossing to the box, the connection from Chiloba, who again I thought was brilliant today. And Adenos goes to a game, you know, in these tight situations, It's two teams who are the leaders in terms of goals from set pieces. We're used to seeing Arsenal doing things like this to the opposition, and today it's Chelsea showing them what it's all about. They've got the players in the box that can make those connections, but it's always important when we talk about how many set-piece goals teams score, but I think having players who can deliver crosses like that time and time again, that is also a unique skill set.

16:10Not every team has someone who can deliver a ball right to a player and consistently do it. The repetitions that these guys are putting out, the output in terms of, you know, we're going to put it in this zone and it goes into that zone and it's evolving. And I think specialists, we talk about long throw specialists, you know, Liam De Lapp's dad was one of them. Now we're seeing set-piece specialists, specifically corner guys, and it's like we're seeing a lot more assists, less in open play and more from set-pieces. But a details team like Arsenal would be devastated to concede in that minor by the same token, wouldn't they?

16:42It would just show the fact he wants Saliba and Gabriel back as quick as possible. Because I felt throughout the whole game, it was probably the most vulnerable Arsenal were. You know, at times Chelsea found it comfortable, you know, when they're attacking them in times. And there was a lot of mistakes from the centre-arfs as well at times. No one really showed the leadership skills in that sense to get control of the players and the play. And it didn't look as organised. And I think that would be the worry, looking in an Arsenal sense. But look, it's a point which, yes, you look back at it now, you would have taken it, of course.

17:08However, they'd be disappointed they conceded for Omicet piece, and it's a bit of their own medicine, isn't it? Bit of disappointment you saw on the players' faces, didn't you, a full-time having equalised through Mikel Marino, with still half an hour to go, that they didn't manage to find that extra gear they needed to brush aside this Chelsea side. Let's get Mikel Marino's thoughts now. It's with Patrick Davison. Well, Mikel, a big battle, that, that you were obviously right at the heart of. As you stand here now, emotions, feelings about the performance and the result? Well, on one hand, disappointed because we didn't win.

17:42Obviously, when you wear this T-shirt, you want to win every game. But on the other hand, we know this is going to be a long, long season. This is a really tough stadium to come. And, well, we take the point. obviously we could have done things better but I think the team showed a good mentality coming back from that goal. What are your thoughts specifically on what you could have done better 11 against 11 and then playing 10 men? Yeah maybe managing the game a little bit better understanding what they were trying to do how they were pressing the spaces they were freeing for us and trying to attack those maybe in the first half when they were going man to man so aggressively and then with ten men a little bit more of patience with the ball that doesn't mean complacency and playing like slow but trying to find you know the wings and trying to elaborate a little bit more there to cross with players the box and try to thread a little bit more still obviously they're a good side but yeah I feel like the team did a good job today we take the point and obviously we keep going and let's win the next game.

18:49Of course they were down to ten men because of a challenge on you can you just give us your view of that and in the sort of the split seconds after it happened were you worried about your safety did you feel like maybe you were seriously injured well I felt my ankle go all the way but luckily I have very mobile ankles and and body so yeah I wasn't concerned about my my safe but obviously I knew it was a horrible challenge and it was going to be a red car straight away. Have you spoken to him since? No. Not even as you come down the tunnel full-time? No. You responded, they went ahead, you got the goal, great bit of wing play from Saka.

19:32Just tell us about your thinking there with your movement because you do have that knack of getting a big goal. Yeah I mean it's something we train every every day trying to you know position yourself in the right in the right areas trying to be in the blind side of the centre-back so they cannot have your reference and then attack the ball in the highest point possible. Obviously when you train with each other every day you know your strengths, you know your weaknesses and yeah B knows that I'm always there and just cross the batheck ball. It was just tapping in. Just going back to the physicality of it, why was it such a fractious game?

20:11Why was it a game on the edge and obviously in one instance it went over the edge? Why was it that type of contest? I mean this is Premier League, this is a really strong league, every team is very strong in every duel and that's why you can see so many transitions. If you win a duel, if you win a second action, you can get yourself attacking the box and today I think we weren't at our best, we know when we were at our best we are controlling the game much more so I think that's why you saw a game with so many transitions and change of position. Thank you, well played. Thank you, thank you. Glad to have you.

20:46Very interesting thoughts of Mikel Moreno, who then equalises for Arsenal on the hour mark. But there's something caught your eye in the build-up to this goal. Yeah, you know, watching the goal unfold, you're sort of thinking, in this area here, OK, try and just keep the ball. And it's almost as if, you know, Liam De Lapde tries to kind of initiate a counter-attack that probably wasn't on. So you're thinking to yourself, all right, you know, we'll get back into position here. but it's important to try and keep the ball when you've got 10 men so you're just inviting pressure onto your defence once again another wave of an attack again you're in a one-on-one position in a wide area is a place you don't want to be in specifically going up against a player like Saka and he's always going to have the quality in these areas Marino his timing of his runs the positioning he puts himself into the box specifically in and around the penalty spot he's magnificent in these areas you look at the movement here he's not even marked checks his shoulder and it's a clean header for him brilliant cross brilliant finish he talked to you about trying to meet at its highest point the ball I thought it was interesting yeah no he's just the timing of his obviously his lift to create goals and his head and ability as well has been it's been so important for Arsenal it's been a different option for him to have I think as well just having that settling period of Jokeres and he's had an injury as well at times I think he's been really important you can see how important his goals are at Ali there but yeah just to go back on your Liam De Lapp point there, even at that time when Odegaard come on, that's when you've got to put a lot more pressure on himself there because Odegaard came on and I felt he started to really get control of the game.

22:18But yeah, it's a disappointment on that side for Liam De Lapp. But yeah, Mourinho has become such a really integral, important player for Arsenal. And I think you can clearly see he's disappointed in the fact that they know they can perform better. However, he's been really reasonable in the way he's analysing that game. I think they kind of expected to get a point going into this. but look, I just think they need to pick up the intensity if they were ever going to actually create more chances and I think that was the thing I didn't think they created as many clear-cut chances as they normally do so I think it was a really different game for Arsenal tonight Have you been surprised by Marino's goal output and sort of how much of an attacking threat he is for Arsenal?

22:55Yeah, surprised me, it really did because I don't see him as that player I really didn't when he came to the club I felt he was more of a player that would be controlling in a deeper role and I think it's like what Mikel has done to Kai Havertz who we don't see too often kind of developed into a different player. He's done the same thing here. This is why it's interesting now, Theo, isn't it? Because if Jocarest is fit, if Havertz is on his way back fit, Gabriel Jesus back on the bench today, where does Marino fit into this team? I think he's more trusted in the big games. I do. I think he's a player that you know what you're going to get.

23:28You know exactly the kind of game you're going to face. And he's got so much more experience in these games. I think Jokeres will be more an impact player in the big games. Yeah? I do. I really do see that now. I just think he trusts him a lot more and I think Jokeres, he'll probably do him a lot of good just to visually watch on the outside. Yeah, if he wanted to play, I understand that. However, I think he'll learn a lot from what Mourinho does and try and change his game a little bit. So you think he would be starting Mourinho ahead of Jokeres? I can see that happening a lot more often than I would.

23:58Yeah. You agree? No. I don't, no. I don't. Because I just... They've been crying out for a striker. So, you know, I think Mourinho brings that stability in there. He brings that extra defensive body, almost like a false nine. But they've been searching for that goal scorer, man. That's why they spent that money. You need to have that brother on the pitch if he's fit and firing. You've got to have him out there because I do agree with you that Mourinho gives them a different kind of problem for the opposition. But you need your big hitters out there, man. And Giocares was brought to provide goals in big moments.

24:35That's what he was there for. That's why I was saying he's fuming with Timber. So what if Haberts is fit then? Who's starting then? That's Arteta's job, isn't it? But they're very different, aren't they? They're very different types. I suppose if you want to put them in a box, Haberts is probably a little bit more... Well, there you go. For me, that's the beauty of Arsenal's squad. This is the best squad they've had since the Invincibles. For me, when you look at them and you look at the players they've got in each position, they've got high-quality players. It's not, OK, I've got a young lad who's coming in and he's this or he's that.

25:09These are seasoned professionals at the highest level. We're talking about Mourinho, who was at the Euros with Spain. Then you've got Havertz, who's won the Champions League at the club, and you've got Giocares, who's won the Golden Shoe last year. So these are the guys who are vying for one spot. Then you've got the wingers, the amount of options they've got there. I think all in all, when you analyse Arsenal now, they have acquired themselves an amazing squad that can challenge on all fronts. They are probably, when you analyse other teams, they're looking at Arsenal as the standard now and going, I don't think that's happened in the last maybe 15 or 20 years.

25:44Theo, you can correct me if I'm wrong, as a former Arsenal player. But to me, when I look at them, I think the expectation is that they are the standard and they're being hunted now. The expectation of them winning the Premier League is probably a collective sort of feeling. which is again probably the first time it's really happened where we're looking at Manchester City, we're looking at Liverpool, we're looking at Chelsea and going, Chelsea are a surprise package this season. The expectation wasn't for them to be challenging. So I think looking at Arsenal, they are in perfect prime position with all of the changes.