Money Talks: The Fabulous Wealth of Carrie Bradshaw

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1:35Hello and welcome to Money Talks, a special extra podcast from Slate Money, where we chat with brilliant and interesting people. I'm Emily Peck. I'm one of the hosts of Slate Money. And today, this is so great, you guys. Today, I'm here with Shana Roth. She is a senior producer at Slate. She works on a bunch of different shows, including Slate Money. And this is really important for our purposes. Shana is a former host and producer of The Waves, which was Slate's previous podcast about feminism. And no, we're not really here to talk about feminism. We're here for another reason. While on the show The Waves, Shana hosted a recap series about And Just Like That, season one.

2:15And just like that, for those who don't know, is, I guess you could call it the reboot of Sex and the City. It follows the adventures of Carrie, Miranda, and Charlotte. What is it, like 20 years later? And some new friends. Some famous, famously hated. Some not. Some liked. We're going to get into all of it. The women, their finances, their tiny kitchens and beds, their landlines. But first, a quick break. Shayna. Hello. Welcome to Money Talks. Oh, it's a thrill to be here. You and I have talked about doing this episode for a while, and I'm so excited that we're finally able to sit down and hash out all of the moneyed and finance and economics of this insane show.

2:59It is so important. I mean, I would say one of the most, you know, on Slate Money Every Week, we talk about the most important business and finance stories of the week. And just like that, maybe it's one of the most important business and finance shows of the year. No, not really. But we wanted to talk about it. And it's August. So it's a good time to talk about TV shows and other things. And the reboot of Sex and the City, even more than the first show, then Sex and the City, is really, Shana, it's like a money fantasy, right? I mean, I've been obsessively listening to the story writers for the show.

3:35They have their own podcast. And they openly admit, this is just fantasy. Carrie, for some reason, lives in a mansion in the middle of Manhattan. In Gramercy, she has unlimited money, huge house by any standard, not just by New York City standard, any standard, huge house. Yeah. What made you want to talk about it? And Shana, please also give your justification for talking about it on Slate Money, Money Talks. To me, it's easy to justify this as a Money Talks episode because although Sex and the City, the original, which I loved as a young woman growing up in the Midwest, a very middle class person.

4:13It was very aspirational because of the New Yorkness of it, but also the friends aspect of it, the dating aspect of it. I mean, let's face it. Nobody ever believed that Carrie Bradshaw could afford that studio apartment on what was it she wrote, like one column a month. And that seemed to be like her whole career before she married big and, you know, fell into an incredible pool of money. So the show originally, for me at least, was about the aspirations of having friends, living a big city life, you know, going for cocktails, talking about who you were dating and all of that. And this reboot and just like that, it has turned into, I would argue, one of the most moneyed shows there is because you can't watch an episode without being hit in the face with signifiers of wealth and class and everything else from the fashion to where they live, kind of to their jobs, but especially their kids.

5:12I mean, just it's all over the place. And honestly, it has become a show about rich women being aspirational, I guess, because they're rich. Like we don't even really get a ton of their relationships much anymore. I mean, yes, a lot of them are married, but still. So yeah, I mean, I don't even know who these women are anymore and it's driving me crazy. Okay. So where do we want to go first? Do we want to talk real estate first? Yeah, let's talk real estate first. Okay. So Shana has this great script that she, as a producer, can't help but write one out for the episode. And she just says, Carrie's apartment, why so big?

5:49It's just her. Why is her kitchen so small? This might be the biggest mystery of all. This has plagued me the entire time I have been watching this show. So for those who maybe are listening to this just to hear us yell about it and haven't actually caught up on the show. Carrie, I think it was at the end of season two, she decides she's going to leave her iconic Brownstone, her iconic studio apartment because her boyfriend, air quotes, because there's issues with that given that he doesn't want to see her for five years, but then he does anyway. So her boyfriend Aiden Shaw is like, I can't go into your apartment.

6:24You got to move. And she moves. But where does she move? Not to another normal human sized apartment. She moves to an apartment that I didn't know existed in New York. I didn't know that there was real estate like this in New York. It is two damn stories. It looks like something out of the Gilded Age, the TV show. It is enormous. And it is just for one person. And then she goes into her kitchen and it looks like something an American girl doll from the pioneer days would be in. It's got like a little ruffle skirt under the sink. There is half a table. It doesn't have a real table has a half a table.

6:59It's a half table. It's a half table next to the window. A smeg refrigerator. And like, that's it. And the refrigerator is like tiny and old fashioned with like a long handle to open it. It is the tiniest kitchen I have ever seen on television. I think for anybody, but especially for somebody who supposedly has an insane amount of money who can afford an apartment in New York that is two stories and who knows how many bedrooms and seems to have like its own ballroom situation. Yeah, has a ballroom, I think. Several bedrooms. Walk-in closet that connects two bedrooms that we see all the time because closet porn is core and just like that.

7:36Lisa Todd Wexley, another character on the show who lives uptown, she has a cloth office, which is like she has the walk-in closet, but she also works in there with her bags and her shoes and everything. Which who wouldn't want that? And I get that Carrie is famous for having once said that she doesn't cook and that she keeps, I believe it was her shoes in her stove. That's very New York. Everyone keeps their sweaters in their stove. No one uses their kitchens. But there's clearly space for a kitchen. And why would anybody who is making this apartment, I mean, it wasn't like made for Carrie. It existed.

8:11Why are they, assumingly having to furnish more than one person because it's a huge place, why is the kitchen so small? I think it's because it's an old house, which is like... Was that a thing? Yeah, like an old house in Gramercy. And maybe it was some kind of like servant's kitchen. And maybe there was a bigger kitchen downstairs or something or something, something old. I don't know. Kitchens are bigger than they used to be, Shana. I'll say this in favor of the small kitchen. It makes little sense. A house like that is going to cost you tens of millions of dollars in New York City. and someone who buys it wouldn't want the kitchen to look like that.

8:49But Carrie does have her character sort of like she fetishizes, I think, charming little things. It has a landline. Yeah. So it kind of tracks that she likes the kitchen. They film in the kitchen. I can tell you from listening to that other podcast that the writers love it. They love the kitchen. I wish you could see Shana's face when I said that. I think that speaks to on some level what at least my reaction to it, what a lot of us are used to, particularly when you think of, you know, female focused movies is kitchen porn. You know, we think of how much time. Nancy Meyers. Yes. Thank you. Nancy Meyers.

9:25We think of how much time is spent in those movies in kitchens and how she's sort of known for creating these beautiful kitchen spaces. We think of, you know, to kind of harken back to my feminist days or my feminism analysis days, you know, we think of the kitchen as being like like a very feminine space. And so in a lot of female focused shows and movies, a lot of time is spent in the kitchen. Therefore, a lot of care is spent on the kitchen. And they're usually depicted as being very opulent, very of the moment, or having some sort of, you know, charm or whimsy that really like tells the characters personalities.

9:58Like one of my favorite kitchens of all time is the kitchen in Practical Magic, the movie with Sandra Bullock and Nicole Kidman, where they're witches. And you see all of these like witchy elements throughout the kitchen, but it's like a very central space. So for me, I think where my brain was having an aneurysm is I'm so used to, oh, we're spending time in a kitchen. It has to be like a gorgeous, you know, big space, especially when you compare it with this huge apartment that she clearly dropped. Do we want to say 12 million? Oh, much more than that. Oh, yeah. A standalone house in New York City in Gramercy, which is a very desirable neighborhood.

10:34tens of billions. Oh my God. How much money do we think big left her realistically? I don't, what did he do for a living? He was business. He did business. He's based on, in the Candace Bushnell book, he's based on a guy named Ron Galati. He was just profiled in the New York times who was like an ad exec for Condé Nast. Okay. But that's not the level of wealth that Carrie is clearly living off at this point. So it is mysterious to me. Big had to be like, I don't think a billionaire, but he's got to have like hundreds of millions. He's got to have left hundreds of millions of dollars. Yeah. Easily.

11:13Which is still weird though, because when you think back to the series and like the movies, their apartment together was nowhere near this big. It was still big. It was bigger than the studio. But like, even with a actual husband who was there with her, not, hey, I might show up once every few months over the course of five years while my kid works some stuff out. Aiden. It was like, I don't know, maybe a quarter of this size. And it just makes no sense to me why she bought a place so huge. I will say this. Okay. So from listening to that other podcast, I know that none of the writers think this home is anywhere near realistic.

11:49It's a complete fantasy. Like they freely admit that. I would say in defense of AGLT, this is most shows now. People live in unrealistic homes. Like I just watched, there was a Netflix show starring Adam Brody and Kristen. Oh, Nobody Wants This. Yeah. There was a Netflix show called Nobody Wants This. And Kristen Bell's character plays a podcaster. She and her sister like do a podcast and I guess it's popular. Okay. But She lives in like this gorgeous LA mid-century modern home. I want to say they have a pool, but I'm not sure, but it's beautiful. It's like well-decorated. And this is how all TV shows are now.

12:29No one lives like the 80s house on the Roseanne show is, you know, that looked pretty real. Like that just does not happen anymore. So to me, I freely accept it. And I think the show is trying to have it both ways with the big house in Gramercy and the small kitchen. They're trying to like keep it real or something with that kitchen. right and say something like you're saying about carrie like she doesn't really cook or anything it was a shock in the one episode where miranda moves in with her briefly and they like fight because miranda eats the last yogurt or something she only has one yogurt and there's meg fridge and it was just like carrie bradshaw has a yogurt like what well that was i think that's what you're saying is really interesting and i hadn't really considered no because like i had i love dissecting this stuff.

13:15And what you're saying is really fascinating that the show is like, look at this whole world, but they're trying to like essentially make her kitchen into her previous studio apartment. Yes. I think that's right. It's like the signifier of that, which would explain why they spend so much time because they just spend a crazy amount of time filming in that kitchen. And the other thing that the kitchen does is it's attached to the terrace, which looks out over where the gentleman with the pipe lives and shares that space with Carrie. And I have a question for you. Is Carrie this man's landlord? Because he lives below her and she seemed to think that she owned the entire building, but she also seemed to not know that this man existed, that this man lived beneath her.

13:55Also, his place is not nice. No, it's gross. It is like a little troll hole. Also, what writer wants to get away from it all and have a quiet writing retreat? And moves to New York for six months? And moves to the middle of Manhattan. It makes no sense. No sense. Nonsense. I come to Manhattan to get away from it all. Like, sir, I don't think that's a good idea. That's what the mountains are for. All I could think was maybe she bought the house minus that property and someone else maybe owns it. Maybe. But still, she would have known about it and not been so surprised that someone lived there. Very odd.

14:32Yes. This has nothing to do with finance. But as a New Yorker, I have to ask you, if somebody tells you to please stop wearing your high heels on your hardwood floor because they live beneath you, are you going to fight them on it? No, but I'm a very meek person. And I'm, oh, I'm so sorry I'm bothering you. Also, as someone who's worn high heels, who wears high heels alone by themselves in their apartment? She's going to have so many foot issues. I'm shocked she doesn't already. She must have bunions. Her ankles must be messed up. Her arches are probably out of control. This is just terrible wellness.

15:02She's got that plantar fasciitis. I mean, she's over 50. She's got a lot. This is not a realistic depiction of women over 50 and their feet, if you ask me. No. So speaking of real estate, I also want to – I feel like I'm turning this into I'm becoming the host now. I'm taking over. I apologize. It's fine. But I wanted to ask you about Aiden's farm. So Aiden historically was a furniture carpenter? Crafter? He makes and sells furniture? Right. And he had like a little store. Small. In New York. And he seemed like he was always he wore a lot of turquoise at one point. So much flannel. Flannel. He was a very like of the earth guy.

15:40And then in this version of the show now, he has done some sort of a furniture collaboration with West Elm. And now he can afford a multi-acre farmstead, major house that has a whole ass extra guest house that's separate and his own thing. As a business person, do you think a furniture collaboration with West Elm is going to yield this much money? No. Well, I would say a few things. First, Virginia property. I don't know where in Virginia he lives. It's not clear to me. Perhaps it's cheaper there. You know, it's not like he owns like in the Hudson Valley or I don't know, somewhere close to New York City would be more expensive given that.

16:22And then he, remember in the original Sex and the City, he had some like weird ramshackle property outside of the city. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. The most generous explanation I have for Aiden's property and Miranda is that they made good real estate bets in the 90s. Like perhaps Aiden owned his own apartment in the city and perhaps he owned the property outside of the city and perhaps he sold those properties, generating millions of dollars for himself. and then use that to buy the farmhouse, which he restored painstakingly. I'm just spinning out here. He restored painstakingly by hand and didn't use a contractor or whatever.

17:00And in that way, was able to have this estate. Yeah. It makes more sense than Carrie's apartment. But still, when I saw it, I was like, really? You got a whole extra house there? Whole extra house. You and your wife and your three children. And we're going to yada yada it away with, oh, yeah, I collaborated with West Elm. And does no work ever. The man is never working. Okay, that's another economics thing we got to talk about. Nobody works in this show. Carrie is writing her terrible book, apparently a lot, which I'm so mad about this book. The book is so bad. It's terrible. The character doesn't have a name.

17:37The main character is called the woman. Stop being a coward. Give us a name for this character. It is frustrating. And here's the thing. This idea that Carrie can go from being a nonfiction memoirist type writer for, what was it, like seven, eight, ten books, and then all of a sudden it turns out she's a brilliant fiction writer? Come the fuck on. No, no one thinks so. Fiction is hard. Historical fiction, no less. Have we ever seen her do a lick of research? Have we ever seen her show any interest in history, period? No. Maybe her clothes. Maybe her clothes. Maybe she knows the history of her belts.

18:14Maybe. Maybe. The idea that this book is so great that some brilliant biographer is like gushing sideways all the time over how wonderful her pages are. When every time we hear any part of the book, I just want to smash my face through a window. It's quite cringe. It's quite cringe. You are up to speed on the episode where she ends it with, she did all she could. She did all she could. Oh my God. She did all she could. Three times. And then it was like echoing like the previous part in the book where she said, It's the same thing three times, whatever it was. And Pipe Guy was just like, oh, my God.

18:50Brilliant. Brilliant. No, it's not too purple. It's just fabulous. This is exactly what you want. I'm like, no, it's not. I get you want to sleep with her, but can somebody please be honest with her? I know. This is bad. It is so bad. Seven bestselling books. That's what is said on the show. And maybe that also helps with her money situation. If Big did not leave her that much. I mean, granted, being an author and having bestselling books doesn't necessarily guarantee an incredible amount of money, but it helps. I'm sure it helps. Yeah. What else? Other apartments of note? The one that I found really interesting as a contrast to everybody else is Anthony's apartment.

19:28Anthony is Charlotte's really good friend who is dating a guy who's much younger than him and whose mother comes over and he's going to. Patti LaPone. Iconic. And he's going to cook for her. And this is really the first time that we are seeing Anthony's apartment. And this is what I expect a New York apartment to look like for somebody who owns their own bakery. If we're being honest, this is the most realistic. I was expecting when we were going to see Anthony's apartment that it was going to be some sort of like kind of tacky, but also elegant mid-century modern three bedroom, big windowed place.

20:00It is not. You walk in and the kitchen is right there and it has half a table, which makes sense in this case because there's no room for a bigger table. And I thought that was really interesting of the show to be like, we're going to give you all of these fantasy apartments. We didn't even talk about LTW's amazing kitchen. Now she has a great kitchen. She has, I mean, that kitchen. There's a scene where she like wakes up early one morning and she like gets her espresso from the beautiful espresso machines. And you see all the dishes and the open facing cabinets. And it's incredible and shows that she's clearly successful, which, again, maybe outside of her price range because she makes documentary films and her husband is some sort of politician.

20:39No, he's a hedge fund guy. He's just been trying to be a politician. Oh, that's right. He is. Okay, so maybe that one makes more sense. Anthony's apartment makes the most sense to me. If we had a little ding, we would have a checkmark. Anthony's apartment. Ding. His works. And I just, I'm so curious why they were like, you know what? Anthony's going to live in squalor. They torture that guy, I think. They do. He's a very comic character, comic relief. if he's not, his problems aren't taken quite as seriously as the ladies. They're not. And I think that's shown itself. Actually, I don't think any of the ladies' problems are taken all that seriously.

21:14They gave Charlotte vertigo. Like, is this a movie? One of the women she works with at the gallery was like, I didn't know that was real. It is real. I have had vertigo. I had it once when I was. I know. I had it once when I was. It's the weirdest thing. You just have to lay down for a long time because everything is just spinning. That being said, I did not attempt to like whatever she was doing, like bend over the bed and like go through papers and stuff. So it's a real thing. But like they treat it so comically that you really can't take anything seriously. Well, let's take a break right there and we'll be back with more.

21:50And just like that.

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25:24we should talk about like do we need shows to be realistic about money like a show like this like why are you so mad shana oh my god that's a great question because like when i this is therapy because when i watch shows like like the white lotus where it's a bunch of rich people and like they're surrounded by rich opulence i'm like yeah no that's fine i think what it is. And maybe this is just my like super like self-hatingness coming out. These women are not punished enough to have like all of this stuff. So hear me out. So when we're watching a lot of the money porn type shows that are out there, a lot of them tend to be centered on people who are having like really bad things happen to them.

26:08Yes. Yes. Like White Lotus people die. Their relationships are tragic and blowing up or they're having affairs and all this other stuff. And while that stuff does happen on end just like that, it's at a very small level. Obviously, nobody's getting murdered. But like, you know, Carrie had a very bad relationship with Aiden. She didn't realize that until very recently. But I think there's something about being able to put up with watching rich people do rich people things when they are having a hard time. It makes it easier, you know? I think you are completely onto something here, I think. because I talked also for Money Talks, we talked about your friends and neighbors, which is exactly what you're talking about.

26:48Everyone's really rich, but there's a divorce and he's stealing from people and then bad things are happening. Or White Lotus where rich people are getting punished. So therefore it's okay. Like people are uncomfortable watching happy rich people maybe. And that's what's happening here. I say Godspeed, be a happy rich person. We all know that money does make you happier. Right. And I think part of it, too, is like we don't want to like rich people, you know, like in especially like your friends and neighbors. I didn't really like most of the people on that show. Yeah, I thought they were all kind of idiots.

27:22Not likable. Right. And on White Lotus, a lot of them are very unlikable, particularly the rich people are very unlikable. But then you have a show of and just like that where I've spent, you know, decades of my life admiring. I know. Right. I feel so old. Just like admiring being with these women, being with, in air quotes, like seeing them through all of this stuff. And now they're just like a bunch of basic rich bitches. It makes me mad for some reason. I'm not saying that I want them to be poor or that I want them to have all of this terrible stuff happening to them. But I think that might be where my rage about Carrie's apartment comes from.

27:56Because I'm like, you are supposed to be this cool gal in her studio apartment ordering takeout with her girlfriends. But Shayna, is that misogyny? I think it is. I think that what we are seeing here, ladies and gentlemen, live, is my internalized misogyny coming into play. I think so. I think that's totally accurate. I'm willing to admit it. It's impossible to be a person in this world and not have internalized misogyny. I think it's showing in how I respond to this show because I should want great things for Carrie. I should want her to be able to write a shitty book and live her life and have a beautiful terrace.

28:36And yet I find myself every episode being like, God, I love Miranda because she's got weird shit happening to her. But you know what? Her apartment makes sense for her tax bracket. Well, she's got all the money from selling the Brooklyn Brownstone that they were smart enough to buy again in the 90s or early 2000s. There you go. Miranda's financials track for me. And therefore, I enjoy what's going on with her. Plus, they did make her homeless briefly in this season. So that's kind of relatable, I guess. She got brought down a peg, which I mean, I shouldn't want to have happen. Again, it's the patriarchy is coming from my brain.

29:13I also want to say, like you've said a few times that you hate the show. And in the conversation around the show, everyone talks about how it's become like a hate watch for people. Not to go back to the well, but on the writer's podcast, they talk about that. And they even make fun of it within the season because they have Miranda hate watch a show. Oh, yeah. Called, what is it called? By Bingo? Yes. By Bingo. Where I don't know exactly what happens, but it's like a bisexual dating show or something. Something. It's like Love Island, but for bisexuals. Yeah. And she like, quote unquote, hate watches it.

29:46I don't believe in the hate watch. If you don't like something, you won't watch it. If you like something, you'll watch it. If you say it's a hate watch because you're embarrassed about it, not you specifically, Shana, I don't mean to. No, no, no. You're good. I think people like the show. They're just embarrassed. I think that it's not about liking it or not liking it. It's about getting something out of it. All right. So when people say that they are hate watching a show, they might not like it, but they're still getting something out of it. They're still getting some sort of entertainment value out of it.

30:17So for example, some people will hate watch a show that they think is so dumb and so terrible that it makes them laugh, or they just enjoy like yelling at their TV about it. So that's what keeps them coming back and they call it a hate watch. For me, I watched this show because I am invested in these women's lives. I remember in college, I would put this show on when I was getting ready to go out. This was like my soundtrack to, you know, my 20s and finding my way in the world and trying to like, at that time, get to New York. I wanted to live in New York and like be that girl. And there is something about this series that is so ingrained in my being that even through the terrible movies and even through this weird ass show, I can't not watch every episode.

31:09And some of it is, I know I've shit on it a ton, but some of this is really fun. Some of this is great. Charlotte is really funny. Poor Harry can't catch a damn break between peeing his pants, like, you know, having his testicles the size of cantaloupes, having to sleep in a full size bed, which we didn't even talk about. But I have to point out here that most people on this show are in full size beds, which makes no sense. It is hard to sleep two people, two grown ass adults in a full size bed, particularly if one of them is a man. That is too small of a bed for these rich ass people. But like I can't I can't stop watching this show because there is this thing going on, especially right now and has been for the last however many years of this nostalgia cash grab.

31:52And I think everybody has their like nostalgia property that they will ride or die with. And no matter how many reboots they do, no matter how many times they resurrect it, even if we know it's going to be terrible or is terrible, we're still going to keep coming back to it. And this is mine. I can't let it go. I just can't. This is like for a lot of men and women, I suppose, have their like superhero IP, their like Marvel IP. But for you and for many others, this is the IP. This is my IP. I can't let it go. I mean, there are some people who are just obsessed with like Superman, like you said, like Superman.

32:28And they will watch every version of Superman and maybe they will hate it every single time, but they will still keep going back to the Snyder Cut because they just can't let Superman go. I can't let Carrie Bradshaw go. I can't quit her. that's our show for this week thanks to jessamine molly for producing ben richmond is senior director of podcast operations mia lobel is executive producer for slate hillary fry is our editor-in-chief and i'll be back in your feed on saturday along with felix and elizabeth for a regular episode of slate money and until then thanks for listening

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