Claire Ghabrial - How Resilience in the Ring Inspires Empowerment Beyond It

0:01I am so glad you could join us. I'm your host, Mo Gaudet This podcast is nothing more than a conversation between two good friends sharing inspiring life stories and perhaps some nuggets of wisdom along the way This is your invitation to slow down with us Welcome to Slow Mo

0:33Welcome back. My guest today is the Australian boxer, kickboxer, karate, so many things. So she started at age 12 with karate, then transitioned into kickboxing, where she won five out of the seven fights she fought and then found her true calling in boxing. I'm very curious about that because I would surely not find my calling in boxing. And then basically had a remarkable record of 41 wins out of 51 fights, including seven state titles, five Australian titles, three Oceanic titles and two international gold medals. And so many accomplishments for a female in that sport. When we got in touch on social media, Claire told me her story very quickly.

1:21And I thought there is so much in this that's behind the spotlights that we all learn to ignore when we look at the glory and the wins rather than the suffering and the losses. Claire Gabriel is truly an example of what sports will tend to teach you, but what you don't see in the background of being what Claire became, a renowned sports icon. Claire, I am very grateful that you're here with me today. I had to read actually because of the number of wins and medals and disciplines, which I have to say, you know, as I said in the intro, I wouldn't do. I would never choose boxing as a reason to be in my life.

2:12I hate pain. I hate pain for me and I hate pain for others. So what made you do that? Why would you pick up karate at 12 and then end up beating so many people in your life? Well, just for the record, I actually hate pain too. I'm actually known as probably one of the toughest wusses going around, like ask my petition. I'm crying when she plucks my eyebrows, I've got tears rolling down my face. I guess it's a different adrenaline. The fact of being punched doesn't actually hurt. So yes, I have no pain tolerance either. It doesn't. it's yeah I can't explain it everyone asks me this and I guess unless you have experienced it it's more the adrenaline of it's a little bit of a shock obviously the first time you cop a punch it's it's not nice but it doesn't hurt like I've got a few tattoos they hurt more getting my eyebrows waxed that hurts more it's I guess you're taught to block defend so you know it's coming whereas all the other pains it's oh yeah I can't explain it I can't explain it So is that only when you're under the influence of all of the adrenaline, when you're in the fight?

3:20No, even like at training, you don't have the adrenaline in sparring when you're in practice, but it still doesn't hurt. And does it hurt afterwards? Sometimes. If you cop a really big punch, then yeah, you can obviously have that whiplash feeling in your neck. But yeah, it's a different pain. It really is. You know what you're doing here. You might be making me change my career choices. There are quite a few people I'd like to punch. Maybe if I learned how. So how did you get into it? So, yeah, I was in high school in year seven. And a friend of mine at the time literally said to me, my dad's karate instructor, you should come and do karate.

4:06And I went, okay, and went home and said, Mom, can I do karate? And she said, karate? Okay. okay so and that was that was literally it and obviously you know my parents are also egyptian so having a background where that's not the norm the mum was just always supportive i was always a tomboy though i literally played every sport under the sun but for some reason when i started karate i just i kept going and i did it for seven and a half years and ended up getting my provisional black belt but just really enjoyed the the fighting side of it but not so much from a violent aggressive side. I love the art of the sport.

4:44So boxing is known as the sweet science. I love the making the miss and counter fighting as opposed to standing toe to toe and punching on. I don't like doing that. I love the art of it. So. So tell me about that. Okay. Treat me like a total ignorant with all due respect, but I know nothing. Okay. I don't know. I'm not a spectator. I don't know who the world champion is. I don't know who lost all of that. I don't understand it. No, and that's fine. And most people don't. Yeah, you're in the ring. And it looks at least to the spectators that the objective is to make the other person bleed. But your objective is almost exactly the opposite.

5:24Well, let me just break it down first, because most people that understand anything about boxing look at professional boxing, which is no head guard, smaller gloves, longer rounds. whereas what I did which was used to be called amateur boxing now it's called elite Olympic boxing was head guard bigger gloves and looking after the fighter a lot more because we would have to fight in a tournament as opposed to train for one one fight so all the big professional fights you see it might be 10 or 12 rounds but they go into a camp and train for that one fight whereas if we go to a competition it's like tennis if you win you go through to the next round if you lose your out.

6:07So you might potentially have four or five fights, depending on how many in your division to get to the gold medal bout. So the fights are shorter and let's rewind way back when I was in the prime of my career, Olympic boxing was scored with points. So all the five judges around the ring had a controller that had a red and a blue button. So you have, you had to land a clean shot and three out of the five judges had to press your button within one second for you to register that point so it was a lot cleaner and a lot more technical about scoring a point yes it's full contact but it's more about points whereas now they've shifted the scoring to like like the professionals which is a 10-9 round and you see a lot more fighting which is basically fighters standing toe-to-toe and punching on in the center of the ring you do get the odd fighter here and there that likes to move and dance and avoid being hit.

7:05And that's called a counter fighter, someone who will wait to be really good with their footwork, wait for the opponent to attack, make them miss and then counter with single or double shots. And that was what I loved. I loved the art of it and still do today. That's so, I mean, I know this will sound really weird, but that's so like video games, right? It's a, yeah, I guess it is. Yeah. Which is my sport. I mean, if you say it doesn't hurt and at the same time, it's so technical. I don't remember where I read this the other day. The average video gamer in the online arena will need microsecond response rates to be able to compete.

7:47And I'm guessing that is probably exactly what you're doing when you're entering and there is a punch coming your way and you're on your footwork and trying to avoid it. yeah 100 yeah it's all about timing and having great feet and I guess that was actually my biggest asset was my footwork um we used to go to international tournaments and I'd have other coaches from other countries come up and say who taught you to move like that and I would just shrug my shoulders and say no one I just do like that was my asset whereas you can't teach well I don't think you can teach aggression you're either born a mongrel and you want to you get into boxing because you want to kill people or I don't know, I fell into it, I guess.

8:26Yeah, I mean, we Egyptians, we run. So yeah, so we're good with footwork. So I know this is not the proper question to ask in the age of walkness, but when you were boxing, that was pre-women being accepted in Olympic boxing. So I'm guessing you got a lot of pushback on this. Yes and no. it was more so look most people were supportive it just was we had a lack of funding we had no support from say boxing australia back then because because we weren't recognized as an olympic sport and i'm going way back i had my first fight in 2003 and there wasn't very many girls around there were in other countries like there were still world championships um european championships but and they were still big tournaments but here in australia we lacked the competitors, we lacked the funding.

9:20And so to be honest, I actually did a lot of international travel by myself. I just had this thing where I knew I wanted to be good. And when I heard the rumor of the Olympics in 2008, I went, that's it. I dedicated the four years for the debut of London in 2012 and went, if I want to be good, if I want to make it, I have to fight the best. So I just made it my mission and I was so blessed. And obviously till today, extremely grateful for all the people I had in my life that believed in me and supported me. And I had clients who would go here, I'll help you. And another guy in particular, who ironically, I'm using his office today to do this with you.

9:57He was a bit of a manager and mentor for me and held fundraisers in his office to help me get away and fight overseas. And I did it by myself. I actually rocked up without a coach to multiple tournaments and just went to compete because I knew I had to go after it so it wasn't so much the pushback it was more just lack of support lack of funding lack of trips um you know the decision was made in 08 and the funding didn't come in until 2011 so I was one I was the first female in Australia to ever be offered a scholarship with Boxing Australia and I moved back to Canberra because I grew up there um to the Australian Institute of Sport and lived there for full time for six months on scholarship and that was the start so from 2011 May to the, well, I ended up getting injured, but the Olympics was the next year.

10:46Like that's all we had. We had a six-month window of travel and being a full-time athlete. So we were so far behind all the other countries. And you still had that drive in you to be doing it. I mean, what makes one do that? So it becomes very visible in sports, right? And I think if we can sort of visually translate that to others, maybe we can use it in everything else but especially especially athletes so I used to play handball I never really really made it big but you know I was always with the national team and so on and some of those guys completely gave their life to the sport right I didn't I had so many other shit in my mind really constantly thinking of mathematics and and numbers and you know you don't you don't really do very well in sports I did okay but I didn't do very well But those other guys, they had a spark in them that if you apply to any discipline in your life, you would succeed.

11:44Right. What happens within your psyche that makes you want to win so much? So I don't think I knew at the time, but obviously unfolding or unpacking everything now later in life, peeling back my layers and getting to know me as me as opposed to Claire the boxer. I guess it was validation it was I I needed to be seen and that that's another story but that comes from my you know my childhood and dad and not feeling seen heard validated which is when I did get injured sorry I know I'm digressing and going forward but when I did get injured and I kind of hit rock bottom that was my identity crisis that allowed me to peel back all the layers of me and understand who Claire was as opposed to who Claire the boxer was.

12:29And the lady that I saw actually helped me see that. Why I chose a sport like boxing? Because it's individual. Tell me I'm good. Tap me on the bat. It's not a team effort here. I did it. And that was coming from a lack of, yeah, I guess, validation and not love, but yeah, being seen as a child. So let's cover those two in a lot more detail. You mentioned you were injured twice. So tell me that story. So my scholarship finished. Obviously, I was thriving and on path to be one of the first female Australians to go to the Olympics. And we're one week out of the trials. And I had state sparring. It was the last training session for the state team before we were meant to fly over.

13:16The titles were in Tasmania that year. And in sparring, I just had a heavier opponent. She had no intention of hurting me, but it was just one of those freak accidents where she was against the ropes and I was punching. And because she was quite big, she put, lent down and pushed her weight because I was obviously looking down and punching into the body or her weight pushed my head down and my neck went into forced flexion. And I didn't actually think anything of it. It obviously, like you asked, does it hurt if you cop a punch back? Yeah, you get that whiplash feeling, but it went forward. And so that day I was actually with my husband now, we weren't married at the time and he said, oh, did you cop a punch today?

13:58And I went, no. I said, my neck got pulled down, but I thought nothing of it. Anyway, it wasn't until the next day that we attempted to train. And I think just the slight movement of like, all we did was a bit of shadow boxing and some light sprint work. And then the next day I woke up, I couldn't move my neck. So the impact of training just obviously triggered it off and yeah no no olympics just like that gone lifelong dream gone so that's that's not an easy statement to say right you maybe you can say it now but what happened then of course yeah oh no of course i was i was shattered like my i had like i said i dedicated so much of my life and even as a kid like karate was never an olympic sport kickboxing was never an olympic sport and finally i find boxing third time lucky and then finally years later it becomes an Olympic sport.

14:46So, you know, that's your dream. Most athletes, that's their dream, right? To go to the Olympic games. But, oh, at the time, like I said, identity crisis, loss of career, loss of identity. Who am I? Who am I without boxing? And that's, I think, sometimes when things are stripped away from us, we're forced to actually look in the mirror and do our deepest work, which I have. And yes, of course, it's easier to say now, but at the time I wouldn't have been able to say it, But I 150 % believe I wasn't meant to go. And I would turn back the clock and get injured 10 times over because it's made me who I am today and it's helped me find my purpose.

15:25So I thought I was put on this planet to box. I honestly did. But I've realized that I was put on this planet to help people. Even though I found boxing again later in life, that was the stepping stone to really finding my purpose. no i i know this requires us to go a lot deeper than this so so so so so so so help me understand this concept of you say claire and claire the boxer that self-definition again it's so simple for someone like you to see that because it is so parsed out it's so clear that you had a life that was claire the boxer and that all of your identity all of your validation was centered around claire the boxer in the modern world today most of our young people even 30s 40s so basically say the the generations that depend on the internet for validation there are so many little Claire the something in their life right so you know the way they dress the way they'll be influenced by others the way they will try to appear online the toxic positivity all of that stuff right what's the difference between them maybe if you can tell us where why claire the boxer again came into into existence and how did you spot that that was my ego it was my alter ego or as you say becky becky indeed yeah yeah so claire the boxer was becky um but the beautiful thing that i discovered because and again like i could take this conversation in so many different um directions But Claire, the boxer way back was being validated by that.

17:07Fast forward to obviously getting injured, going down a spiral hole of, I don't think I was depressed. I was down. It was, yeah, who am I? I guess just going through that identity crisis. But I was also telling myself for, so that was 2012, I was telling myself for a good eight years, you didn't get to London, you're not good enough. So the whole not good enough from my childhood was playing out in my life tenfold. And don't get me wrong, we're always learning and growing and working out who we are. But I've done a lot of deep dive into me and who I am. And a lot of it makes sense. so I I was actually I'm really fast forwarding here but I was journaling one day because there's a lot of things I've wanted to do with with boxing with life but I've always stopped myself and I think one of my favorite sayings at the moment is get out of your own way and that was me I was literally in my own way stopping myself from doing all the things that I wanted to do and one day I was journaling and I wrote down in big capital letters what's stopping me.

18:25And I wrote me, I'm stopping me. And the reasons were, didn't get to London, not good enough. No one's going to listen to you. And bless him. My husband actually said, can I have a look at what you've written? And I said, yeah, of course you can. And he looked at it and he said, babe, I'm sorry. Excuse my language. He said, but that's bullshit. He goes, are you going to tell me that I'm going to use AFL, which is our football league here, obviously. But he said, are you going to tell me that any player that's made the AFL that hasn't played in a grand final hasn't made it. He goes, look at what you've done.

18:57And it was literally a moment of slapped me in the face. So then I started writing all the things I had done. Obviously, you rattled them off in the beginning in the intro, which was lovely. But actually owning that, owning the fact, yeah, wow, look at what I've done. And I literally changed the conversation to, no, you're not good enough. Look at what you've accomplished. And from there, I was actually able to own my story rather than focus on the one thing that didn't happen, which was that final destination, focus on the actual journey of what I had done along the way. So that then led me to share a memory came up of 10 years prior, which was in 2021.

19:41a memory came up which was the 10-year anniversary of the first time Boxing Australia took women and men on the same trip. It was when we finally got funding. So I was the only girl that went and there was me and five other boys on the team who were amazing, made me feel part of the team. And that tournament I won all four fights, won the gold medal and won female fighter of the tournament. So I decided to share that memory. I thought I'm going to own it. This is what happened. And that led to a friend of mine who I used to be training partners with, who now has a gym. He commented on the post and said, Hey, Claire, the master's games are in Perth this year.

20:18And I had a laugh and I went, surely I'm too young for the masters. And he said, no, no, it starts at 30. And I, something just lit up a spark inside of me. And I was speaking to Dom, my husband about it. And he said, do it. He said, how much fun would that be? What have, what have you got to lose? So I rang my coach and I said, which who I hadn't seen for 10 years, and said, I'm thinking of doing the master's games. And he said, great. And I said, I'm not training full-time. Like I'm a mom and I have a business. I'll come down to you once a week and I'll do the rest myself at home because I have a home PT studio.

20:50So I've rocked up and had a fight. And then he said to me, the state titles are two weeks later. Why don't you keep going? Meanwhile, I'm 39 at this stage and I'm in the best shape of my life, mentally and physically. and I found boxing again without the ego purely for the love of it and I did it because I wanted to not because I needed validation I had already given myself that ended up having 10 fights in a year and then yeah I'm 42 now but yeah 40 was the cutoff so I found a purpose through fighting again but for the love of it and then met all these young girls along the way who some of them weren't even born when I had my first fight and now I'm mentoring them and now they reach out to me and say are you free I want to catch up and I want to ask your advice and I've not only found my purpose in helping them but I've realized I have so much to give back to the sport and it's just been an amazing journey all because I got out of my way and I guess I wonder how many times people stop themselves from actually doing what they really want or what they really feel in their gut that is right for them.

22:05This is one side of it, but I don't think we should also miss the side of, and what have I achieved? Am I not good enough? This idea of not good enough, the way you explain it. I couldn't count. I mean, I normally remember my intros. I just said, look I'm gonna miss the numbers here let me read them right when you talk about 41 out of 51 fights that's the kind of performance that's winning every fight almost right and yet somehow our minds would allow us to deny all of this and say but because you got injured which wasn't your mistake you didn't make the Olympics you're a sack of shit right and I'm like where like how And it's actually really when you say it that openly, it becomes funny.

23:00Like, you know, honestly, what we do to ourselves in this world, you know, you take anything like relationships and people who would go through relationships and say, I'm really I'm not good enough. This is why it didn't work out. And reality is, as compared to everyone else, you know, you have to learn, you have to go on and so on. and that most of the time the other person was also the sack of shit. And why do we do those things to ourselves? I don't understand. Well, I believe it stems from somewhere deeper. And I know where mine came from. So my dad, bless him, he's passed now. But dad actually used to say to me when I was younger, and I'm sure you can understand being an Egyptian man, that when they bring humor to a situation, but he actually used to say to me, you're the best mistake I ever made.

23:45So I heard that as a child. I know, right? He didn't want to. He didn't want, I know. So subconsciously I've carried that my whole life. That's where the I'm not good enough comes from. I'm totally good enough now. I get it. I've worked on it, but that's why people are the way they are because of something that happened or an event that happened, something that's triggered them in their past that they might not actually be aware of until they start unpacking and looking in the mirror. But I subconsciously carried that my whole life that and I actually asked mum one day I'm like what did that mean like when I started really diving into myself but he didn't want any more kids like my sister's seven and a half years older than me and mum and dad were 12 years apart so there was a big gap between them and I guess mum said he was just in that selfish state of you know Monica's at a great age now and let's just leave her at your mum and dad's and go out belly dancing and blah blah blah and yeah I was a bit of a surprise so I guess that's why he felt the need to say it.

24:42That's actually it's if you think If you understand the motives, it's actually a nice thing to say. I mean, you know. Well, yeah, it's bittersweet. But as a child, I'm taking that. And I would just kind of laugh it off. But I don't think I realized how much it affected me until I started really self-sabotaging everything in life and just never feeling enough, always needing and seeking his validation. But I guess I needed to go through everything I went through to realize that the only validation I need is from myself. and you know yeah and like i said 42 now and it's nearly taken me yeah i guess 38 years to work out that i am enough the other side of it uh honestly clear is you know hug that husband for me because the way yes the way he empowers you to to just i mean that's very simple chill answer of yeah wouldn't that be cool it's like you know go yeah go play the national championship that's that That would be lovely.

25:43That's such a real, honestly, and again, I mean, I say that because so many of us hold ourselves back because what's the worst that can happen? Right. It's a wonderful experience. Go, go hike that mountain. You know, no, I'm not that in shape. I'm never going to make it up. And so what if you just do half of it, if you do a quarter of it, where's the issue? Like, why are we preventing ourselves from all of those things? Yeah. So interesting. Of course, because I guess fear of failure. And I think the best part is actually Dom drove me to that fight back. It was the first one. I had been out of the ring for almost 10 years.

26:17So, yeah, of course, I was nervous but also excited. And he said to me, babe, do you know what's different this time? He goes, if you win, great. And if you lose, great. The result's irrelevant. Your life doesn't change. And that was, I think, why I went, yeah, why not? I'm just going to keep going and I had fun with it. And because the result was irrelevant, I didn't care. and I know that's hard because I guess most athletes are competing to win I get that but I had actually never enjoyed my boxing so much when I wasn't focused on the result I was purely focused on the enjoyment of it and doing it because I loved it so yeah yeah hard I know when you're you know competing for a qualifying event I get that but you definitely perform better when there's no pressure and you're just you're just loving it oh yeah i know that which i did have moments of like early days when i said i did the international travel by myself like because we had come from australia we were really nobodies no one knew who we were so there was one particular tournament where i was an absolute nobody and i rocked up and actually made the final so it's it's just i had no pressure on myself it wasn't until you know later on the scholarship set in all of a sudden there's an expectation on you things shift so but but you see what you just said here you said you didn't have pressure on yourself the same external pressure was there like the audience were there the you know the the sort of return on your investment of training and so on the cost that you paid for the trip all of that was there it's just you didn't have pressure on yourself by yourself that's so interesting can i can i ask a very personal question you can skip it if you on who's the boss in this household i mean i haven't seen the husband but unless he's six foot five i think he has to behave right he's he'll tell everyone that it's me but do you know what we are we're a team i think that's the best way that's what that's normally what the boss would say no no no honestly we are a team we we are better people for being together Oh, that's so wonderful.

28:29And how long now? We've been together this year, 14 years. Wow. We've got married seven this year. And there's, like, I don't know where you want to take this conversation, but there's a story there. And, again, the whole not good enough. Dom was actually married previously and had two little boys and his wife passed away. And the boys were four and six when she passed. And I met Dom when the boys were six and eight. So that was right before London. So I actually became a full-time step-mom before I became a mother. And talk about a situation that life's going to throw at you where you're never going to be good enough.

29:15You're never going to replace a lost mother or father. But that was a lot for me too. That was unpacking all of that at once, the loss of London, loss of career, full-time step-mom, who am I? So we've done so much work together and individually and the boys have been a major, major part of my growth as well. They're now 19 and 21 and we have a little boy together who's eight and a half. So I have four boys in my life. They say you're only dealt what you're tough enough to handle. There you go. I didn't say this. My wonderful mother, who's recovering well now, she fell unfortunately a couple of weeks ago, you know, was raised with my dad, who's an engineer and, you know, I mean, she lived, raised us, raised my dad, who's an engineer and three of us kids, all men, very manly.

30:17Okay. Yes. Yeah, I can relate. I can relate. Yeah. So So, but it's very clear for me that in a very interesting, I don't know if I have the right to say this, but it's so interesting in my mind, the vision of you being so strong, such a winner on stage, right, in the ring. But then deep inside, you would still feel, I'm not good enough, that image. For so long. yeah and and then and then the idea of you being so strong and then having a man show up in your life and so masculinely i would say uh being able to sort of remind you of the things that you missed out when you were in that spiral of i'm not good enough and and to show you that you you actually are i think it's a beautiful story to think about it oh yeah 100 and look uh as as tragic as it is i wouldn't wish you know anyone to lose a parent at that age or any age is hard but i just i honestly believe i moved to perth for him and the boys because that was my destiny like i had no intention of staying in perth when i came here i came for boxing and i said i'd be back in six months and it's been 21 years this year but i just honestly believe you end up where you meant to and yeah yeah it's it is from from tragedy i guess comes sometimes a beautiful story and we've just both helped each other so much and even the boys like it's funny how like josh the older one who i clashed with the most obviously because he was a bit older and he did understand what was going on cory was like oh cool i got a new mum whereas josh was a little bit but there's a lot of my inner child that was in him so there were moments where we were doing this but he helped me see so much of myself and helped me peel back those layers even more so the whole thing's just been yeah beautiful and although it's so beautiful it's it's hard to say that knowing someone's you know lost a mother like you said can you change it no can i accept it yes and i think that that That quote in your book that I put to my story and you reshared, the one about gratitude, like that one slapped me so hard in the face because that was actually me.

32:42I was too busy focusing on what I didn't have as opposed to what was right in front of me. And what was right in front of me was three beautiful boys that this was my family. But I think sometimes when you are, I'm not good enough, I want my own family, like your head, Becky, Becky takes you everywhere. But I had to go through all of it to really, really understand. Yeah, I can't tell you how timely this is. There's so many people, I think. It seems to me that we live in a world in general where everything's right and nobody's happy. It's quite interesting. Of course, there is so much wrong with the world, you know, in terms of the geopolitics and the economics and so on and so forth.

33:27but in a very interesting way of course your heart shatters in empathy and compassion for those who are struggling but at the same time we forget to have the gratitude for all that we have right all that we are blessed with which is the majority of the i mean if people have a device to listen to slow-mo on in the safety of some kind of transportation or a hike on a sunday or whatever to listen to this conversation, then by definition, they're luckier than 99 % of the world. And yet we continue to forget that. We continue to lack the gratitude and the appreciation for the reality of what we've been given, mostly due to no effort on our side, mostly due to pure luck.

34:16and it's shocking for me because yes, I think our world is struggling but we seem to be a little better. So that is a very big reminder. You said you shifted your purpose to helping others. Where did that come from? So like I said, yeah, I thought I was put on the planet to box but I guess from my own experiences, it's made me aware of how much I have to offer and how much I can help people I actually find I'm doing it every day so I run a personal training business based around boxing but most of my clients end up in my gym in tears telling me that they tell me more than their therapist or like I think when you are living your purpose it shows and it comes out and I just know that this is what I want to do.

35:14And even this, just speaking, obviously I'm extremely honored to be here with you today. And I did a podcast with a friend just not long ago, and it was the first one I'd ever done. And I think at the end of it, I went, I really want to do more of this. Like, this is where I'm heading. I love the training. I love it. It's part of my DNA, but I know that I'm here to help people basically live their best life. And yeah, like I said, get out of their own way because I was doing it for so long. I actually want to, yeah, I want to make a journal and the front page is going to be get out of your own way.