Gelong Thubten - How A Retreat Can Help You Find Yourself

0:01I am so glad you could join us. I'm your host, Mo Gaudet This podcast is nothing more than a conversation between two good friends sharing inspiring life stories and perhaps some nuggets of wisdom along the way This is your invitation to slow down with us Welcome to Slow Mo

0:34My guest today is one of my favorite people on the planet, Geelong Tukton. I actually never met Tukton before. We met on a Zoom call two and a half years ago during the times of COVID, where he truly changed my life. He doesn't know that, actually. I'll talk about it in a minute. But at the time, I saw in Tukton an amazing soul that truly went through an amazing journey to help the rest of us souls find a path to happiness and enlightenment. We stayed in touch as much as we could after we recorded our podcast episode. And now finally here at Kate Dowdy's, my best friend's studio in London, we meet for the first time and we meet for me to realize that he is exactly what I thought he was.

1:23Tukton has written a new book that he so kindly shared with me before he's about to share with the rest of the world. And it's called A Handbook for Hard Times. Such an appropriate title for what we're about to go through, if you don't mind me saying. It's A Monk's Guide to Fearless Living. I consumed it very quickly, I have to admit to you, and I absolutely loved it. The book is out in just a few days, August 31st, I would ask you to please pre-order it because I would really love for that book to be a bestseller. And you know how the publishing industry works. So if you like our conversation today, please make sure that you don't put your phone down before you get a copy of A Handbook for Hard Times.

2:09And so I'll start first by thanking you for being who you are. Thank you. I get that joy of traveling the world and meeting some of the wisest, but most interestingly, kindest people that most of us don't get a chance to meet. And, you know, I don't know how to say it any other way, but I have a very soft spot in my heart to those who choose monkhood. I think people have heard me many times saying that if I actually had a choice I would probably not be in the mainstream of life I would probably choose the same path myself but when you and I spoke back in 2021 I was it 21 or 2020 I don't even remember anymore during the pandemic was during the pandemic yeah did you tell me you were actually sick when we had that I don't know if I did, but I was pretty sick.

3:04Oh, my God. We'll come back to this in a second, because when we spoke, you taught me that meditation, remember, I'm an engineer. To me, everything is about perfect performance, highly optimized, oiled machines. And you taught me that meditation was all about mind-wandering. It was all about losing your focus to be able to pull yourself back down. Exactly. And you never really know how far a word that comes out of you can affect people and humanity. I took that to heart, completely flipped my approach. Because believe it or not, not that I was struggling with meditation at all, but before you taught me this, I was such a perfectionist and I used a meditation device that measured my brainwaves and I did 97 % calm on most of my meditations.

3:58but that lost the joy of meditation altogether. And so I will hold you as one of my teachers, whether you like it or not, for the rest of your life. Were you actually sick when we were talking? Yeah, I had COVID. I was getting over COVID. I had very, very sick. You didn't look so sick, my man. You looked okay. I had very severe COVID at the start of the pandemic. And I think when we spoke, I was in that long COVID phase and I was still very sick. I'm okay now, but I went through two years of being not able to do much. Is that why the book is about hard times? Actually, I decided on the book before COVID.

4:41I'd already written a book about happiness. I know, yeah. And then I thought, now I want to kind of go deeper and talk about, yeah, a guide to unhappiness. You know, how do you find your way through unhappiness in a creative way? So I wanted to talk about how to work with suffering, work with pain, work with difficulties. And so I had the idea in 2019, and I started to write the book. And I got through one chapter and then went down with COVID. I got COVID at the start of 2020. And so I was very, very sick. and when we spoke I was in sort of recovery but still very ill because my heart and lungs were quite badly affected.

5:25Wow. In which way? I had blood clots in my lungs and I had myocarditis where the heart is swollen. And you were still actively teaching? Well, I was doing, as we all were, we were doing stuff through Zoom. So I was finding ways to position the camera so people couldn't see the duvet around me. No way. Is that how we spoke? I think I was probably, you know, in a bed. Man! Robes from here up, pajamas down below. I didn't care. Now I'm really weirded about that conversation. But yes, fine, fine, fine, fine. But that kind of dedication, I mean, you continue to travel as soon as we came back from COVID.

6:07Yeah. Your monasteries are in multiple places around the world. Yeah. So the headquarters is Samueling Monastery in Scotland. And that's where I became a monk 30 years ago and where I've been doing my training. But we have branches in other places. And one of my roles is to help out at some of the branches. Okay. And so you travel to visit? I travel to branches. And I also give talks outside of that setting. I do a lot of talks in hospitals and schools and even prisons. I like to bring meditation into all walks of life and to really take away the idea that it has to be a religious thing or it has to be Buddhist.

6:46For me, it's just a human experience. You can take it anywhere. Have you always been a Buddhist? Yes, in that I grew up in a Buddhist family, but my parents never particularly pushed it onto me. It was just there in the background. But as I was growing up, I didn't really think about meditation. and when I was a teenager I went quite off the rails. I became a bit of a party animal and I became very wild and living a very kind of hardcore party lifestyle, which made me very ill. I got very ill and that stopped me in my tracks. Sickness seems to be a theme in my life. I was just going to ask if you don't mind me saying it.

7:25And I feel that looking back, whenever it comes up, it's almost like my body's way of telling me stop and go deeper because that first sickness I had, which was also heart-related when I was 21 is what took me to a monastery. I had a very severe burnout. And I think probably because my parents had told me about Buddhism, I already had some kind of faith in it. And I heard about a monastery where you can go to be a monk for a year. And I went to this place, and I was only going to stay a year. But then I stayed, I stayed, I stayed longer and longer, and finally loved it so much I took lifelong vows.

8:03but the initial... How old were you? I was 21 and the initial idea was just to stay a year and get my health back together, get my head together and then I was going to go back to my old way of life but things got under my skin in a really good way. The Buddhist philosophy, the thinking about compassion, meditation, all of those things and I stayed longer and I met amazing teachers. I met my teacher there, Akan Rinpoche, who sadly passed away now But I had many, many years training under him, which was just incredible. How does that feel like, to train under a teacher? You find that it's not what you expect, because you expect to meet some kind of wise, old person who is going to impart very formal teachings to you.

8:52And there is that, you get that, but you also find it's about the moment-to-moment relationship of the teacher showing you where you need to tighten up and where you need to, you know, to your mindfulness is too loose or where you're not being kind enough. They're kind of teaching you in the moment. So I worked together with Akan Rinpoche as his sort of attendant or assistant for many years. And that gave me a lot of time to study under him. But in a way of studying in life, through life, through working together, through traveling together, through doing projects together. Observing. Yeah. Yeah.

9:29I mean, normally the image we have of a teacher from the movies is either Yoda or like, you know. Long white beard. Yeah. Exactly, yeah. Actually, one of my teachers does have a long white beard, Akon Rinpoche's brother, Lami Yeshi. But it really is, it's not what you think. It's not like you're sitting at their feet and they're kind of saying, now, my child, I'm going to teach you to open the secrets to the universe. It's not like that. It's that you work together and you learn by example and you talk. And sometimes you even talk about your own emotions and your own problems and they talk to you about how you can find solutions.

10:07You navigate them, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, so as I said at the beginning, I have that addiction to spending time with monks and I know quite a few of them. Well, you already have the haircut. I do. I wish I was further there. I attempted, you know, last year. Yeah, I think it's never too late, but I think with my current vows, if you want, my current vows are focused a lot more around the rest of the world than myself. and I think a big part of my value is not because I teach anything new at all. It's because I am that modern day warrior. I'm the Google executive. You can be a monk and do that.

10:49I can. I understand. I'm very much out there and giving talks and writing books and out in the world. But I've also had the good fortune to have time in the monastery. We need that, don't we? We have time in retreat. Whether you're a monk or not doesn't matter. It's about going in. And so I've had enormous support in going in and spending time in retreats. There is a lot of spiritual faith, not just Buddhism, that will tell you that this time alone, you know, sometimes Moses walking the desert or, you know, Muhammad sitting in the cave or, you know, Buddha sitting under the tree or whatever, that this is really where the enlightenment happens or at least the reflection happens if you want.

11:29And definitely I feel the need that this is really, really what my soul is craving very, very strongly, really. I find that retreat, where you're completely alone with your own mind, you become very honest about yourself. Absolutely. I mean, my experience of retreat was I did a very long retreat. How long? Four years. Four years alone. Yeah. You weren't alone. So there were 20 other monks in a retreat enclosure, but you didn't spend much time with each other. You're mainly alone in your room meditating all day. And it was a very interesting experience because I'd already been a monk for about 12 years.

12:08And I think I had a lot of spiritual arrogance when I went into that room. Kind of pride, like I thought, I'm a monk. I was maybe one of the more senior monks as well. So maybe I was a bit like, yeah, well, I'll just sail through this. This will be, you know. I didn't know. I didn't think I'd sail through it, but I thought I would do well, whatever that means. And the reality is after 10 days, I completely fell apart. And in that retreat, I had the most horrible time, which looking back was very useful. Totally, definitely. But I think it kind of humbled me to myself in that I had to sit there with my own thoughts and feelings.

12:44And there's no audience. There's no feedback. You're just you. And that can be quite devastating at first because you discover your own inner demons or whatever. But it can be also very healing. 12 years a monk and then you discover your inner demons. Can you explain that? Maybe I did a little bit of suppression before that. Maybe I did a little bit of suppression. Because, you know, when I became a monk, I was definitely driven by suffering into this monastery. I was having depression, anxiety, all of those things, and I was looking for a solution. And I went to a monastery to find a solution.

13:26And maybe for me, putting the robes on initially was a way of just squashing all of that down and becoming a so-called spiritual person. So I think I was a little bit pretentious. I probably am in many ways, but I hope I'm less pretentious now. You know, in those days, I think I was just trying to be serene, trying to be calm, trying to be what I thought a monk should be. And it's only when I went into retreat that all of that breaks down and it's just you with you and your own mind. And then all that depression came back. Oh, wow. Yes, full force, really badly. And also the anxiety started to build again.

14:05And I was having panic attacks. The whole thing flooded up in me. Looking back, I can see that was incredibly healthy because here I had to learn to deal with the thing that I hadn't dealt with properly. And that retreat of four years was all about dealing with that suffering and that pain. And it almost broke me. So halfway through the retreat, I thought, that's it. I can't take any more. But somehow I managed to get myself into a mode of practice where I could work with it, work with the pain, work with the suffering and learn how to have more compassion for myself. And that's the topic, actually, of your wonderful book, right?

14:47So it's that hard time that takes us through the thicker walls, if you want. But I want to come back to that. But before I do, I'd like to just highlight what you just said is really, really quite interesting, pretentious spirituality. Pretending to be spiritual or I don't know, I think there must be a term for it is quite common. I mean, you don't have to be a monk, but there are so many that rush into spirituality and very, very quickly go like, OK, I figured this out. I'm going to talk to people about meditation, and then I'm going to say namaste when I meet people. Yeah, and you put that kind of misty look in your eyes and try to look, you know, like, try to look a bit otherworldly and a little bit detached.

15:35And I don't think it's a conscious thing always. It's just you want to be spiritual. So you kind of try to look like you think spiritual should look. And many people do it. I know I was doing it with being a monk. It's kind of tempting that you put the robes on and then you just try to adapt yourself, assume that persona. But then so, you know, is that a bad thing or a good thing? Sometimes a lot of people tell me that they dislike that very much. And normally my answer is I say, look, it's people take different journeys across the path. And it's actually okay if someone at least wants to look spiritual, then that must be better than not wanting to be spiritual at all.

16:16And when you say, is it a bad thing or a good thing? I would suggest that on a spiritual path, there is nothing bad or good. It's all part of the learning. And you have to go through all kinds of ways of trying things and find your own truth through that. So you have to make a lot of mistakes. Interesting. But that's why it's called practice, because you're practicing, you're learning. But isn't monkhood about preventing you from making those mistakes? You're sort of like, okay, let's take you out of the party life, put you in a monastery somewhere. I sort of in my heart know my answer, but isn't that how it appears to be?

16:53We're here to prevent you from doing those things. Yes, but then you go into this monastery and you start meditating. And then the very thing that made you go to all those parties starts to come up in the meditation. And then you start using the meditation a bit like a drug. And then it becomes hugely problematic. So yeah, I definitely agree with that. You know, when I first started meditating, I found myself seeking a high all the time. And it was very much pushing. I was pushing myself to get some kind of bliss experience. I wanted to get blissed out. I find that quite interesting how people talk about meditation is supposed to be your joyful moment of the day when in reality it is a practice, right?

17:39Yeah, and if you're trying to force yourself to be joyful, that's a disaster. Absolutely. Because the more you push for that, the more disappointed you feel. The more, you know, the less joy you get from it. Well, you're coming from a place of, I need joy, therefore I'm telling myself I don't have that joy. The more you think you need to be joyful, the more you're telling yourself, I lack that joy. So you're actually somehow shooting yourself in the foot constantly every time you sit down to meditate. And that definitely happened to me. Definitely a lot of hope and expectation that I would feel good.

18:10Yeah. And I had to learn how to work with that and change that. And it does feel good, but it shouldn't be the target. Meditation can feel good, but then if you get stuck with that, you've immediately made it artificial. So this is exactly the learning I got from you, that to stay at 97 % calm was me telling myself that I'm feeling good. I mean, the device I used was cheating, honestly. I mean, it's a great device. I'm not against it in any way. I actually think it gave me a lot of insight into the state at which my mind wanders, right? But the way the device worked is it gave you nature sounds, right?

18:47And if your mind was wandering, the nature is a little angry, so it gives you rain and wind and so on. And when your mind is calm, it gives you birds, okay? And, you know, tricky as I am, of course, I basically said, okay, aim for the birds. Give me more birds, right? And very quickly, you can train your mind to focus on the birds, right? And I have to admit, it feels awesome when you're in that calm, quiet place. But that's perhaps not the exercise at all. I don't know how much that would change the person because would you then become more addicted to the calm? Totally. And also, are you really meditating or is something doing it for you?

19:28That's the question. it's almost as if we lose our own power by giving it to a machine which is a huge topic as we know in the bigger sense do we want to talk about this i don't know if we can go there but you know if you want to it's my biggest topic of the year that is what we do and if we use too many meditation apps and devices as well it's like we give the power to a machine we tell the machine you meditate for me. You make me meditate. And for thousands of years, people meditated with no technology. So it was not like they were missing something and then technology came and made it all better.

20:08I mean, in a very interesting way, were we missing anything at all? No, I missed the days before technology, frankly. Absolutely. Sure. I mean, look, we're using technology now and of course it has great uses, but it's got out of balance, as we know. Yeah. Seriously out of balance. I believe so. I believe there was a, in my personal view, I think it was 2011, 2012. We should have stopped there. We should have just said, okay, this is fantastic. It's like eating. At some point you have to say, I'm full. Yeah. Right? Yeah. At some point you have to say, I've eaten enough. I don't need to overeat.

20:41We've overeaten. Yeah. We're going to come to hard times. I promise we're going to come to hard times, but you teach me so much. When you meditate today with your busy life, how much time do you put to your meditation? I don't time it. I just do a session in the morning, session in the evening. Oh, you don't time it? No, I don't time it. That's interesting. Again, my weird target orientation. Well, I do think it's good to time it. And I often advise people to do that. And when I'm leading a retreat or a workshop, we definitely time it. But the way I find for me at the moment is I just do my meditation every day, no matter what, a little bit in the morning, a little bit in the evening.

21:18And then for me, when I'm giving classes, that is really my meditation work, because as I'm speaking and leading the class, I'm in the mindful state. So I get loads of meditation done in that way as well. And then I also try to practice tiny moments of mindful awareness throughout the day, little drop-ins throughout the day. I get that. I think that probably is more my approach but also i think what's so crucial and you mentioned this at the start of our chat is how to re reframe that idea that you need to clear the mind or you need to have no thoughts that that's a disaster yeah and i really find it helpful to explain to people that is the coming back that counts exactly it's i i liken it to that rep in the gym yeah totally right It's like it's that pushing, doing a biceps curve.

22:14Absolutely. Okay. It's the movement, not keeping the weight up here. That's not, doesn't. It's not like putting yourself in a trance or being in some kind of altered state of consciousness. It's work. Your mind wanders. You bring it back. Every time you come back to your meditation, like come back to the breath or whatever it is you're using, you are gaining strength and gaining more power in your meditation. So that means that the thoughts that took you away are the very thing that bring you back. What do you mean by that? Well, if coming back to the meditation is what makes you strong, you have to have somewhere to come back from.

22:52Ah, yeah, absolutely. So all those... So that's part of the exercise. Yeah, all those thoughts, the wandering mind is what allows you to come back. Yeah. So you don't need to feel like a failure for having a wandering mind. It's part of the process. Can I ask you a very personal question? I mean, as a very high-paced executive most of my life, I find myself, as I go through the journey of life, wanting more and more of the calm and peace and inner work, if you want. Has it ever happened the other way? I mean, is it on the path at all that a monk would come to a point in time and say, I am now ready.

23:28I have found my inner peace. I'm going to go the opposite way. What is the opposite way? just being completely out there in the world? Well, I imagine that there are people who meditate, monks or not monks, I don't know, who must reach a level where they don't need to meditate. They kind of go beyond meditating. I assume that that's where my teachers are at. They seem to spend all their time serving others and helping others. And somebody once asked my teacher, how long do you meditate for each day? And he said, the question makes no sense. and I got the feeling that maybe he was suggesting that he doesn't, he's sort of, everything is meditation for him.

24:08That's probably true. I'm not at that level, that's why I need to practice each day. But I imagine that that is an achievement we could achieve, which is to not need meditation, but to just be the meditation. At the moment, meditation for us is a thing we do. But what would it feel like to become the meditation? where there's no doer or practice, no person practicing no practice. That's fascinating. I'd love to experience that one day. I'm sure you feel it some days, right? No. My practice is something I do. I sit down and I do it. I know where I'm at in that I'm not advanced. I'm just doing my thing.

24:49And hopefully one day we'll... I don't really worry about... You're just humble. I don't worry about where I'm going to get to. I just keep going. I trust the process. Interesting. Hard times. Yeah. So I publicly said that, I don't want to call them hard times, but I publicly said that we're approaching some of the most confusing times known to humanity, partially because of a topic I champion, artificial intelligence, but partially because we held off with climate change for too long, partially because of political, geopolitical economic challenges that might be around the horizon, but partially in my personal point of view because of systemic bias.

25:36We've held onto a system of constant consumerism, constant wealth shift, constant gap creation in power and in wealth and in education and in knowledge and in everything that is feeding on itself to the point where, Like you rightly said, technology is helping in some ways, but working against us and others. And every other part of the system, I think, is getting to that breakpoint. First of all, do you also see that? Yes and no. Yes, I agree with everything you've said. But the no part of me also has a feeling that part of the problem is we hear about it and read about it much more than we used to.

26:19And of course, the way news media is presented is always shocking and arresting and grabbing and clicking to find the ad embedded in the news story. We know that. So yes, of course, things are in trouble. The world is in trouble. But how we perceive that has changed in that it's coming through our phones all the time in terms of breaking news alerts and the negative bias in the way things are presented. Yeah, I mean, I heard that argument before. I don't know if it's necessarily, there is definitely a lot of truth in it that we are much more informed than the 1900s about a child that falls in a well in Morocco.

27:05And that becomes part of our, you know, canvas of events of the day. when the child did fall in the well in 1900. We never heard about it. I think what I'm starting to pay more attention is that that same lens has not changed drastically in the last 10 years. We still had the same amount of access to information, but the intensity of it, I think, in the last 10 years has accelerated a little bit. In either situations, whether it is really changing or not, It seems to feel a little overwhelming for everyone, isn't it? I would say so. I would say that we feel overwhelmed and also the predominant emotion is fear.