Rachel Schofield - How to Find Your Dream Job in 5 Steps

27:00And if I'm honest about it, one of the reasons why I was struggling to leave Google was what am I going to be known for afterwards? How did you work through that being such a familiar face on the BBC, delivering, being in people's homes every day, basically? Hmm. That is a really great question. And if I'm totally honest, I think I'm still working through it, actually, because don't get me wrong. You've been very kind, Mo. I'm not I'm not a sort of household name here in the UK. I did do news presenting, but I'm not sort of one of the bastion of really well-known people. But, you know, people would sometimes go, oh, I've seen you on the telly.

27:41And I had that cloak, as I refer to it in the book, of I work for the BBC. I'm a BBC journalist. And, yeah, absolutely, there was Smigo there. There was some safety there of being a kind of having a job that was known and respected. And I think having stepped into a different space and having to almost start from fresh and reestablish yourself and become a slightly different person who's known for something different, I think I'm still definitely working on that, actually. The book, you know, I'm really mindful. How interesting to play with this idea with you. Yeah, I'm really mindful that the book has given me some of that sort of credibility that perhaps I felt I was missing because I was a relatively new coach.

28:29And it is odd. And if you've been a particular thing for a long time and you're known for that, it does make you feel a little bit naked to go back to basics and say, OK, I'm new at this new thing. I'm learning. I'm having to carve out a new identity and set up a new set of credentials and show that I can do this and I can help people. So yeah, you've got me thinking. I think ego is a big thing in career change. And it's something probably that still deep inside my mind still bangs about a little bit. I ask the question, honestly, because when you talk about reflection, I have to admit almost every change, not just career change.

29:08Sadly, we define ourselves with what experiences or what titles or what we have possessions. and it's frequent, for example, that somebody is in a relationship that is not working, but they would consider what would I be without her or what would I be without him or people who would be in jobs that are really, really very draining for them. But it's such a nice title on LinkedIn. And what would I do without that? And I think that's I bring it up not to find the answer, but I bring it up because I think people will struggle with the ego side, big or small, you know, advanced in your career or not.

29:49There's always that kind of defining yourself by it bit that we need to overcome. Yeah. And conversely, I don't want to take us off on too big a tangent, but it just got me thinking about the starting space of my career coaching was a lot to do with women who have stepped out of work to raise a family and who are then returning, maybe as their children get a little bit bigger. And they almost have the opposite problem. Correct. In that they feel, and this is a big issue, but that years spent as a mother, as a mum, often, I think, certainly in the Western world, rob you of a lot of that identity and strip it back and give you a sense of what have I been doing for the last five years?

30:36You know, you know, as a mum, you've been working so hard. You've been learning so many new skills. You have stretched yourself to your very limits, but there's no title that goes with that. There's a kind of, oh, you're just a mum. You're just at home looking after the kids. So you've been robbed of all of that easy title, that easy, I can hang you on a hook and it means you're an impressive person because you were at Google or you were at the BBC. And for a lot of women, that is devastating for their confidence because in our modern world, there's so little currency attached to, I want to say motherhood, probably parenthood generally, but it's an issue that affects far more women.

31:15So for them then trying to step back into work, they can feel very small and lacking in confidence because they've had all of that lovely label and safety stripped away. And they feel, what do I have to offer? Because people say, what have you been doing? And they say, oh, I've been on a career break for five years or 10 years or 15 years and feel that that has no weight in the professional world. People are just like, oh, you mean you've got a big gap on your resume? And so that conversely is devastating to people. And it just, as we're talking about this, Mo, it's making me think we really need to, I don't mean you and I, I mean society as a whole, we need to be ready to play with this idea of what work status really is for people and what the ways that we spend our time, whether that's in paid work or the unpaid work of caring for children or elderly parents or whatever it is, how we want to weight the relative importance of those things.

32:11So it's a big one, I know. No, but I think it's pivotal, honestly, because define a career. What is a career? Is a career a series of jobs associated with a certain pay increase over the years? Is that what a career is? Or is a career a set of skills that you learn? Or is it a set of experiences that you gain? Or is it a set of contacts and people that you get to interact with? What is a career, right? I mean, if you measure a career by impact, then I will openly say I think my wonderful ex's career, raising Ali and Aya, is much more impactful than my career building technology. I think she did so well at it.

32:55I always say, best mother I've ever seen. And the kids are incredible. And you have to admit, especially where we started, you know, where there was no internet, but also no books on parenting, no courses you can go to. The only source of information is your mom, which, you know, in many ways has destroyed you anyway. I mean, my mom didn't. And it's actually quite interesting sort of from an impact point of view, what matters. And I have to admit that definition of a career is actually missing. I'm going to ask you the question, but I think the question in my mind is, is someone that works for three years, then takes two years off to experience the world frequently, like three years, two years off, three years, two years off, does this count as a career, right?

33:46Is it a career choice? Is it something that we should consider? I don't have a definitive answer, but I love the idea that that counts and that we can look more holistically. I mean, obviously, the old school approach is, oh, that person's flaky. They can't stick at something. They keep moving on. But I think what we're seeing, and my kids are 16 and 19. And I think that generation is looking at work in a much more holistic way as part of their life. I think historically, we've kind of thought, I mean, the traditional work-life balance, you know, the idea that these things are binary. I think we're looking to almost try and find a way that we can live our lives where work, but also the other things, family and our own interests can somehow intertwine more.

34:39And that may be naive. I know, obviously, if you're a big company, you don't want half your workforce sodding off, you know, every few years to do something different. But can we start to see that they gain something from that, that they come back fresher and more creative and more inspired and with new ways of thinking and being and acting? I don't know. It's hard, isn't it? There's the sort of philosophical angle, which I'm really excited by. And then, of course, as often happens in life, we're like, what do we do with that practically? Yeah, I think the idea is if we're going to reflect, I think people are allowed to extend the meaning of the word career beyond just my job, beyond just my title, beyond just my pay.

35:23You know, I had a company that I worked for once that basically gave me a career planning guide. And the first few pages were about jobs and skills and what have you. And then they started to say, where in the world would you like to live? And where do you want to send your kids to university? And what languages would you like to learn? And I'm like, why are you asking me those questions? And it was actually quite interesting because simply they were saying, look, you know, if we need a general manager in Brazil and you said you want to learn Portuguese and your kids are going to go to university in Mexico, maybe it's better to be in Rio or in Sao Paulo than it is to be in Dubai, right?

36:05And it's an interesting way of looking at it. And I think people need to include that in their view. Let's go to step three then, which I think is my favorite thing in the whole world. Imagining and designing. What is that? So imagining and designing is all about generating ideas. And one of the first things I do with all of my career change or career clients, we don't have to call them career change, not all of them, I should say, end up making a big career change because the reflecting shows them a few small tweaks will do it, actually. That's why it's so important to reflect periodically regardless, because sometimes it can be nuanced.

36:43You don't need to run off and join the circus. You just need to change some of the things you're doing. But yes, what I get all of my clients to do, right from our first session, even before we get there, is to start collecting their ideas for careers. Wild, obvious, mad, you know, the ones that you'd need a million pounds to do, the ones that are obviously connected to your job at the moment, and build a list and write them down. Because the problem we also have is so many of our ideas we let just kind of float around in our heads. And they hit us every time we go on holiday, and we finally have time on the sun lounger to think, what would be my dream job?

37:21But we never actually really engage with them, And we just kind of let them sit there. So I say, let's collect these ideas and let's do something with them that allows us to properly explore them, even if they're bonkers. Because sometimes what seems like a bonkers idea is not as stupid as you think. And not because you can go and run a speedboat company on Lake Como and meet George Clooney every day. Maybe that's not going to happen. But putting that idea in the list allows you to actually be curious about it. I'm big with curiosity, Mo. It's, okay, what's behind that idea for you? You know, is it that you want to work outside?

38:04Is it that you love speedboats? Is it that you have a thing about beautiful, environmental, sustainable businesses? Is it that you actually, it's nothing to do with speedboats and lakes. It's all about George Clooney because you're crazy about film. You know, let's unpick it because there are elements of that that may have something for you. It may be you can't run a speedboat, hire a company on Lake Como, but maybe you can run your own business in some way. If it's actually more about I want to do something of my own, I want ownership of something. Or is it I just would love to have a spell working abroad, you know.

38:39So you can take these ideas and learn something from them and take bits that feel meaningful, and you can then work out for you what's realistic. And you can also generate more ideas if you need to based on the real key principles that you start to see emerging from this ideas list. Because what can look initially like a really disparate list of ideas, often you can cluster them either with the help of somebody else's eyes, or even just looking at it yourself going, I start to see the themes here. There is a link, like there was for me, there is a link between being a journalist and being a coach.

39:16There are these threads that join these jobs that seem on the face of it that they've got nothing to do with each other, but actually the underlying skill set of questioning, listening, curiosity, analysis, communication, you can use those as a journalist, you can use those as a coach. And there are other jobs that exactly when you start to cluster in that way, you can say, aha, I'm seeing that the key skill set, the key drivers here are this. And where does that lead me to ideas that become then viable? And that's then the next step is thinking, okay, I've narrowed this down to some ideas, but I still don't really know what that job looks like.

39:52I still don't really know if it is possible. I still don't know what it would be called. I still don't know if I would like it. And then you have to start taking action. Can I stop you before we talk about action and ask you, but when people imagine the tendency of the human brain is to be afraid, right? So they'll probably a lot of the time, if you start imagining, people will start imagining, oh, but I will suck at it and I will have no money and then I will be stressed. So my husband will leave me and then I'll be homeless on the streets of New York and right, you know, how our brain can create drama.

40:29What would your advice be? I mean, is there a methodology that says imagine, but imagine only nice things or? What a good question. I think you're right. I think first of all, even just knowing that your brain is not your friend is a good start. And I spent some time on this in the book saying, you know, your brain is hardwired for certainty. The human brain is a prediction machine. Its job is to collect information and create shortcuts. And it wants everything to be predictable and obvious and clear. So when you start throwing things in, that you don't really know anything about, and that seem a bit wild, and, you know, potentially unknown, the brain says, this is risky, don't do that, we don't know anything about this.

41:14So I think almost knowing that as a starting point, that that is just your brain's natural inclination, it may not really be based on reality. So let's lean into that and be curious. When my brain offers me a thought that if I do this, my husband will leave me, what real evidence do I have for that? How else could I look at it? And I know that's a flippant one, but it will offer you lots more about like, no one will take you seriously. You will have to go and do a master's to change this job and it's going to cost you seven grand. You will have to go back to square one and take a 20 ,000 pound pay cut.

41:47You know, is that true? Let's find out. So I think knowing that your brain is likely to try and sabotage you for lovely, kind reasons. Thank you, brain. It's trying to keep you safe, but it's offering you odd thoughts. What else do you have to do? I think it actually leads back to that next step, which is all about taking action, because you cannot think your way into a career change. You cannot decide on what would be a possible next career for you, sitting on the sofa, eating Pringles, Googling. And that's what so many people try and do. And oh, well, what a surprise. They never get anywhere.

42:25They just get hit by the klaxon of like, you can't do this, you can't do this. And they Google and they get no real information and they just sit there doing nothing. So the taking action is the really important step, actually. of career change, that you've got an idea, you've got lots of uncertainties about it, you've got lots of questions. Will this work? Will I like it? Is it possible? How much would I earn? Okay, here's the challenge. Go and find out. And I give lots of methods for this, but my favourite one, and I think in a way our meeting, Mo, is a lovely example of this, that for me in so many areas of our life.

43:06And I think career change is no different. The magic is in other people, because other people are interactive, and have real answers for you and can help you. And I don't mean help you like you go out saying, please give me a job. But one of the best ways to find out whether you're going to like being a dog groomer, or whether you'd make a great graphic designer is to find a dog groomer, find a graphic designer, and ask them for a cup of coffee. Don't ask them for a job. Don't send them your CV. Don't be overly annoying and demanding, but just say, I'm really interested in your journey. How did you get here?

43:39What's your job like? What do you do every day? So many of jobs, the problem we've got for career changes is, you know, you know, your own job, you know, the handful of jobs around yours, you maybe know vaguely what your partner does, although often rarely, there's amazing statistics about how little we understand about the jobs of other people in our lives. But so often, we don't know what we don't know. We just think that could be interesting. So let's go and have some conversations with people and just ask them, what does your job involve, actually? You know, how do you measure whether it's fun?

44:12What would you be doing on an average day? What would you expect to have achieved by the end of this year? And all that kind of thing and immersing yourself in these other worlds. So if you fancy being an HR director and yet you work in marketing and you know nothing about HR, well, find a way to go and spend some time in the HR department of your company or ask your neighbours, who do you know who works in HR who'd have a cup of coffee with me or who I could go and spend a couple of hours with and just nosy around what they're doing. So for me, that exploration phase gives you much more information, real information, not Google information.

44:48It gives you the ability to grow your confidence about, is this job right for me? Is it what I thought? Actually, I'm realizing that, you know, I went along, I did groom some smelly dogs for half an hour, thinking it would be my dream job because I love dogs. But actually, I hate wet, smelly dogs. I don't want to go anywhere near them. You know, you've actually then got something to deal with. And the important thing for Matt is as you progress, as you get stuck into this exploration of these ideas, is people worry, well, what if it's not the right one? Well, you've found a low risk, quite quick way to test that.

45:24You haven't invested£5 ,000 to start a course to train a psychotherapist before you've even ever spoken to a psychotherapist, ever visited a psychotherapist. you know, you're finding ways and you can, if you get it wrong, there's no risk because you have just taken a few small exploratory steps and great. You hated it. Brilliant. Take that one off the list. Move on. That's great information. People worry like, Oh, what if I don't like it? Well, if you don't, you know something you didn't know yesterday. So that's all good as part of the process. But the part that puts people off because they get worried they're doing it wrong.

45:59You're not. You've got to get stuck into the muddle in order to make progress. There doesn't seem to be wrong in any of this. Like you can't do it wrong, right? You're trying to do it right by actually knowing more, learning more. As I said in your introduction, this is a very introspective way of looking at a career. You're looking deep within you and then you're going outside and then you're finding out and then you're saying, is that what I want to do? Do I like the smell of dogs when they're wet, right? I love that idea of it's actually so far, believe it or not, you have not once mentioned apply for a job.

46:36That's such an interesting approach to it. It's all about who am I? Who am I? What do I like? What do I know? Is what I know enough? Can I know more? Such an interesting way of looking at it. And if you don't mind me saying, you're such a journalist. I mean, think about what you just did. It's like, I'm supposed to find my dream job and then I'm going to go out and conduct an interview about it. That's so interesting. It's really the right way to do it. And I think it counts as a very valuable action. It's basically almost like going to university to learn about something, but you're doing it in a two hours, wonderful coffee appointment with someone that basically gets you there.

47:19Yeah, or you go and try something. I mean, I have a story. It's a bad story against myself, really. But one of the ideas that I had years ago was I thought I would love to do something artistic and creative. So I signed up. And this is another great way to test an idea is to do it before you sign up for a three year course. You know, do a day's taster, do a weekend course, do an evening class for a term. and I got very interested in printmaking and lino cutting. And I just signed up for a really cheap weekly course at my local adult education college. And I really loved it. But I got to the point that I then started just in my head.

47:57I'd got a whole business in my head, Mo. I'd got like business cards. I've got a website. I've got it all. But it was only in my head. And it was only when I then took another one of these just little exploratory steps. And I went along to a day's session about building a creative business. And I thought, great, I'll go and look at how I'm going to do this. I sat around a table with about 20 other people. And as I listened to their questions, and as we discussed, and we went through the sessions, it became really apparent to me that those other people were already taking their cards or prints or whatever they were doing.

48:33They were going along to trade fairs. They were going on to craft days. They were selling stuff. They were they had that they've done so much. And I realized that all I was doing was in my head. And that was information for me, because I thought if I really wanted to do this, I would be doing more. I would already be taking steps. But actually, all I'm doing is daydreaming about what color my website should be and what font I want. And again, it's just all information because you need to think I'll try it and I'll see how it feels. perhaps. Again, that's the other thing I think about decision making, whether it's careers or anything else, is there's a lot of information in your brain, but doing everything cognitively is not necessarily the right approach.

49:18Your emotions and how you feel in your body have a lot of data for you as well. That hunt for the energy and the buzz, not because you can expect your job to have that 100 % of the time, but thinking when I go and do this thing, does it does it really bring me joy? Does it have a feeling of something important emotionally for me, whether that's in my heart or my gut and not just in my head? And I appreciate, we started talking about economic climate and things. So some of the work around career, yes, will happen in your head. What can I actually do? What's right for me at this time? But we also need to be alive to other signals from our body about what's right for us.

49:59are you not an advocate of jumping two feet in and saying okay i'm changing my job i'm going to apply for 16 000 jobs and then 1600 of them yeah the job application thing it's the kind of spaghetti against the wall approach isn't it and i think it rarely works but it is most people's first port of call they sit in there always think i hate this it's monday again and i just i can't do another Monday. I know in my lunch, I'm going to apply for 27 jobs that potentially have something connected to what I do or that sound interesting, but which I'm not remotely qualified for because I've done none of the exploration work.

50:37I've done none of the sense of what would I need to show or demonstrate or have to make this change. So you just start throwing stuff out there. And of course, you become very quickly demoralized because that's not a great approach, because you're normally trying to shift into a new world that you don't know much about. Your application sucks. You're not positioning yourself as a strong candidate. You haven't spoken to a human being. So the applicant tracking system on the computer says no, in really big letters. No, you cannot have this job. You hear nothing or you just get rejection letters.

51:12And of course, it's crushing to your confidence. And you soon get back to that thing where your brain says, I told you, I told you we shouldn't do any changing. It's really not going to work for you. Confirmation bias. Don't try and change your job because it's never going to work. But of course, you've gone about it a really silly way to just throw out applications and hope for magic. You've done none of the exploring. You haven't gone along to the conference or the book launch or the workshop that would help you kind of learn about that new world that you're thinking about, that will introduce you to people there, that will help you learn the language that you need in order to move into that world and apply successfully.

51:51So no, please, please do not take the every day I will apply to 15 jobs and gradually lose the will to live. Exactly. That's not a very good career change, losing the will to live. I have to say when you're talking about it, Rachel, in my mind, I'm sort of like wishing I wanted to change my career because it's such a beautiful process to introspect so much and find out what you enjoy. And I have to say, I mean, even if our listeners don't want to change career, there is beauty in that tasting something before you jump both feet in. I mean, I'll say that and I think it will sound weird for a lot of people, but one of my top advices for people going out dating is don't go to bed too early, please.

52:40like, you know, like what you're saying, you know, just get to know a person a little more, spend a little more time waiting to get to that specific day of the month when you're going to be fighting. And so have a demo fight. Let's see how the demo fight will go. See if they really like Indian food or have they been pretending for a couple of weeks because you're so attractive. And, you know, so those things really matter. It's all about do I feel right here? Do I feel that this is me. And you seem, however, in the part five of the book to sort of say, and don't be silly. This is not a five-day process.

53:19Keep going. Yeah. So I call that last step, keep going and how to last the course. Because although you said it's a fun process, and I think if you approach it as an explorer, it is. But it is also a process where you will discover things that are disappointing potentially, or you will reach out to people who say, no, I don't have time, or things seem to fail. And I think knowing that that's normal in a career shift is important, first of all, actually, is to know that it will probably feel uncomfortable, but it has felt uncomfortable for every other person who's done it. So you're normal if you're finding this a bit wobbly.

54:03and to know that that liminal space, that period of being in between where you haven't quite left one job and you're not quite sure what the next one looks like. You're in this kind of threshold space, liminal space, and that is unsettling. So being aware of those things, first of all, but then really recognising that in order to keep going, you can lean into the fact that by trying new things, by expanding that comfort zone, you will grow as a person. And that's, I'm really mindful as a coach not to sound too sort of trite, because it doesn't happen overnight. But actually, again, if you try things, your confidence will generally grow.

54:49We often wait and think, well, I couldn't possibly go along to that meeting of graphic designers, because I'm not a graphic designer. And I'll just wait till I feel a bit more confident. But actually, it's by going along to that kind of meetup and asking your questions and realizing actually everyone was really nice and I didn't come across as a total idiot, you suddenly feel like, oh, yeah, I feel a bit more confident now. And then they say, well, why don't you come to this session that's happening? And you think, oh, I do feel confident enough to do that. So those kind of tricks around building your confidence, getting out of your comfort zone will help you keep going through the moments where you wobble and also embracing that muddle, the muddle in the middle, I call it.

55:31People often, they start high energy with career change, like, yeah, I'm going to go and do something amazing and different. And then they hit a few setbacks and they can sort of feel like, oh, this isn't going to work. Or in that reflection space, that can be a moment where you have to get to grips with yourself. You have to be quite authentic about who you are. And I noticed with my clients that what can happen first is you get more muddled before you get clear. And again, knowing that that's normal and being prepared to sit with the muddle for a while and just keep exploring, keep taking small steps.

56:07I think that's what helps people keep going. And then suddenly things start to fall into place. The picture becomes clearer. You get more confident about what you want and what's important to you. And then the steps up that ladder or often off that tangent off to that other new pathway, brighten and become clearer for you. Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. Can I ask you why you only focused on career change? When I looked at your work, I thought this would be so useful for someone who hasn't started a career at all. I think one of the biggest mistakes we humans make in a lifetime is you're a jazz player, but your dad tells you to study economics and so you end up being an economist and then 17 years later you go like I hate this what would be different if we were to take this to our youngsters and tell them yeah that's really interesting if I had a someone on LinkedIn put underneath one of my messages or what advice would you have for young people do you do anything with young people it's not a space I work in but you're so right I think a lot of it is applicable and almost again it's it's a thing like can we shake the whole system I don't know but certainly in the UK the idea that you have to decide so early on you kind of we there's a narrowing that happens quite early on in the British system so but at 16 you take a set of exams where you're pretty much still doing everything from kind of maths and chemistry to French and English and history then 16 to 18 you're probably down to three subjects maybe four then someone says what are you going to study at university maybe one subject.

57:46And suddenly you think, how the hell have I ended up with a maths degree and everyone telling me I should be an accountant when actually I just enjoyed, you know, being in the school play or I loved coaching the football team. So I think it's how do we keep our options open and make young people see all the sides of themselves and not get pigeonholed too early. We talked a lot about identity when we started this conversation and how work gives you an identity, but also the subjects you study quite quickly start to box you in, in people's imaginations. But actually, when you look at the statistics, most people do not end up in a field of work directly linked to the subject that they majored in or studied at university.

58:29And we need to keep that in the forefront of our young people's minds, I think. They can feel very weighed down by being asked to make a decision at 18 of like, oh my gosh, if I choose the wrong subject, that's it. I'm kind of laying out this path in front of myself now and I can never get off it. Whereas actually, unless you want to be perhaps a doctor or someone where you must have certain qualifications, things remain so open. And whether we can just do better at communicating that to our young people and modelling it for them. I think, funnily enough, the work hopefully that I'm doing with people in their 30s, 40s, 50s, saying to people, a career doesn't have to be a linear thing.

59:11We are allowed to go down some pathways, to go and explore some things, spend a few years there, course correct again. I think the more that happens, and it will, partly as a result of our own desires, but I think also because of the way the world of work is changing. Hopefully that will filter down. And I think we'll probably, with my kids' generation, as I say, 19, 16, I imagine they will have a lot more twists and turns to their careers and a lot more different jobs and roles, which I hope is exciting because it means you can keep evolving and keep responding to your own changing needs, your own changing circumstances, whether those are philosophical or practical.

59:52So let's hope that, you know, what you decide at 17 doesn't straightjacket you into something that you are utterly miserable doing at 50. Yeah. And if you're utterly miserable doing it by 27, I suggest you reflect, right? Prepare, then reflect, then imagine and design, then take action, and then keep going. I think the beauty of this model, as I said, Richard, in the introduction, is that you really are not talking about the technicalities of how to write a CV. That's such a waste of paper if you wrote that in a book. This is really almost like a monk being taught how to meditate and reflect and introspect and find insight because insight is what creates a career that is worth living, really.

1:00:43Writing the best CV will probably get you more money, but that's not a career that's worth living, right? Maybe writing the worst CV. I remember one of the product managers that I hired at a point in one of my startup had applied to us at Google X with a search box. So basically, basically she sent a CV that had a type this in Google or something like that. And that was so clever because when you typed it, you got an answer and the answer was basically saying something about her. And it was really clever. She was not saying, I want to work at Google X. She was saying, I want to do something very creative.

1:01:23And that's very, very different. It's not an approach to find a job, it's an approach to find a life that you think is worth living. Can I ask you, so the most common way people look at careers is, I have a career to make money or to get recognition and fame, right? And then, of course, because of the brainwashing that happened after the Industrial Revolution turned into an information revolution, and to get people committed, we started to convince people that work is your life's purpose. It's the only reason why you're here on earth. And so people now work for purpose and impact, right? Any other reasons why people should choose a career?

1:02:06I always want to invite people to just tap into what is important for them. I think the whole debate around passion-led careers, which seems very kind of in vogue at the moment, you find your passion and then you turn it into a career again for some people that's fantastic they want to work because they want to be every day kind of living out this passion they want to monetize it but again i think that can be quite an intimidating thought for a lot of people who are like i don't have a passion what would a passion look like i'm knackered i've got two kids i'm hardly getting any sleep i've got no time left for hobbies or passion or anything i just need to get to work, please, God, finish at five o 'clock so I can get to pick up my kids from childcare.

1:02:50So I feel like we want to just give people permission to lean into what they need from their work at a particular time. And it is different for everybody. And I think the more we try and say it has to be, you know, some people maybe do want to make millions of pounds. Is that bad? I don't know. If we tried to straight jacket them into doing something with purpose, Would they just rebel against that? And similarly, you know, if we say to people, you must follow your passion, does that just make some people utterly miserable? Because actually their passion is surfing, but they don't want to run a business.

1:03:23They don't want to teach their rubbish. They don't want to teach people to surf. They just want to have a job in the week that is reasonably predictable so that every weekend they can get on their board and go surfing and have fun. so yeah I think it's it's back to curiosity it's back to that sense of what do I want from work and whether we try and suggest work has to have a purpose or a passion versus making lots of money and having status I don't know what does it mean to you is the question I always that's what I'm essentially working with my clients on what is work for what will give you the most enjoyment and fulfillment from your work.

1:04:01I had a conversation the other day with a mum. She was not a client, she's just a friend. She was looking for work. She was a super smart woman. She'd had a professional career, but she was busy with her family. She had a daughter who was having some mental health issues. She wanted work that would get her out of the house, would be involved with a team, would allow her to have a different focus, some mental stimulation, just something. And for her, I'm not saying she couldn't do more. I'm sure she'll go on to. But for her at this moment, that is what she needed from her work. And that was what would give her joy and give her stimulation and give her the ticks in the boxes that she'd identified.

1:04:41So, you know, people listening, you, me, what are your boxes? Don't let anybody else tell you what your boxes are. I love when truth is told on slow-mo. This is, yeah, this is wisdom. This is career wisdom. I love the way you said this. I'll close with my typical question. I always try to go back to happiness. Can a career bring us happiness? What would be the secret to that? I think it can absolutely make a big part of your happiness. Yes, because it is something that you're going to probably do. As pension ages, retirement ages creep up, you could be doing this for 50 or 60 years, but hopefully this gets to change as you go.

1:05:24So I think it can bring you happiness if you allow it to evolve with you and you keep checking in with what happiness looks like. But also, I think. That total shift that we're in danger of making from the kind of pre-industrial revolution, you know, you just go out to the fields, you do your job. It's bloody boring, but you get your money at the end. You know, that kind of you just work to live. that shift we've slightly made to kind of we need to live to work, work must be everything, it must give us everything. To me is as bonkers as the idea that your life partner has to be everything to you.

1:06:01And you have to expect that they will bring you everything you need. I think it's always about looking at your work and your career within the context of your wider life. And one of the things I notice with clients is that when we spend some time about interests, that reflective moment. And I say, let's do a session on what you're interested in. Sometimes it's not about deciding that because you love art, you should go and take an illustration course and start illustrating books. It's not, that doesn't have to be the answer. Sometimes people just go, I don't want to do that for work. But talking about this has reminded me that I used to love drawing.

1:06:42Or someone will say, my interest is music. And oh my gosh, I used to be in a choir when I was 18 and I let that go once I had kids and got busy. But you know what I'm going to do? I'm not going to try and retrain as an opera singer, but I am going on a Friday night to join my local choir and that will bring me joy. And I don't need to turn it into work, but it has allowed me to see that in other parts of my life, there are changes that I want to make and career is one part of them. But we have agency in other parts of our lives as well. And it's for us to play around with that balance. Yeah, it's that augmented experience, you know, a job that allows me to have that time on Friday nights so that I can go and do this because it's part of what makes me who I am.

1:07:25And it's part of the journey of my life. And I think that's a beautiful definition of what a career should be. That one message that you sent out on LinkedIn, I think that led me to a place of a lot of joy and enlightenment today. I'm very grateful for, I'm grateful that you wrote this. I really am. I'm grateful that you looked at this as a journalist, honestly, that there is that curiosity of why, what should I be, where should I go? Not just, OK, time for a promo, time for another job. Wonderful work, Rachel. I'm so grateful that you were my guest today. And thanks for all that you shared. It's really wonderful.

1:08:08It's been a really interesting conversation. I love it when I come out of these conversations thinking, hmm, Mo's given me something to think about. So it's been great talking to you. Thank you for having me. Thank you. And for all of you listening, I really think this was an eye-opening view for us because really even if you are not thinking of changing your job and if you love what you're doing, as Rachel said early on, that reflection on the frequent check-in on where am I in life? How much did I change? What do I want to be? Where do I want to be? What brings me joy? I think it's something we need to do not only about our careers, but perhaps about where we live and who we live with and what we're doing with our time and hours and everything really.

1:08:54I think it is a valuable view to have that curiosity about who you really are, not just what's out there. Next time you're searching for a job, try to start from what you are, not what's on offer, and what you want, not what they can give you. And I think when you look at it this way, I think your career choices will probably become a path to your happiness and to your fulfillment. I definitely recommend Rachel's book, The Guide to Career Change, and I definitely recommend that you hear more of her work. We'll leave her contacts in the show notes if you want to get in touch. And yeah, maybe as you do what I ask you to do every week and take a little bit of time to slow down, take a bit of time to slow down and think about your career and your life and reflect and see where you want to go.

1:09:49And while you're doing that, maybe, maybe because you are kind to me, you would want to share this, like it, send it to others, tell others about it. because that would make more people aware of what I'm trying to do here to spread those messages that would make everyone's life better. I would be very grateful for that. I thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to meet so many interesting people. And I love you all for listening. And I will see you next time.