Sah D'Simone - Discovering The Secret To Sassy Spirituality

31:57How could I distract myself from feeling these feelings? How could I distract myself from giving in fully to this narrative that I am fundamentally bad, so therefore I should not be here? So I built my life around distracting myself from feeling, and I built it in such a skillful way that people outside really thought I had done a great job. I'm 24 years old. I'm on Forbes. I'm on this, blah, blah, blah, all this stuff that looking back, I'm like, oh, poor thing. Trauma response is really working for you. Good job, trauma response. The world thought you did it. You were doing it. You were okay.

32:35So I just give this kind of like psychological and somatic awareness of my inner world, just so you understand the depth of the rock bottom. So now fast forward to November 22nd, 2012. So end of 2012, I think there was a lot of tribal cultures saying that that was the end of the calendar year, meaning something the world's going to end. I mean, a variety of different things. But that day, my business partner and best friend decides to buy me out of the company that I invite her to be part of. So it was the heartbreak was like enormous. And so I leave fashion and I try to get a job. I was like, oh my God, I've given jobs to so many people.

33:22I've like collaborated with so many people around the, around this industry. So I try to, I try to get another job in a fashion industry as a creative director and no, no, no, no, no. So many no's, nothing was coming up. Nothing was happening. So I said, you know what, excuse me, F this. I'm going to go to Florida, be close to my parents and kind of like reassess. So I get this little house in Madera Beach, like an hour from Tampa, Florida. And that's when I started to research. What is happiness? What is wellbeing? What's the purpose of human life? And I started to research these very simple things that are kind of like the driving force of our life.

34:01But I have to be fully honest, up until I was 27, I never once thought to question, is money happiness? Is success in this exact way that I'm living happiness? Am I happy? But, you know, never really had this like depth of self-inquiry to question the structures that were imposed onto me as an immigrant, as a person of color, as a queer person, the layers and layers and layers, right? So it was that year, 2013, that I started questioning and researching. And then 2014, spring of 2014, I go to India, to north of India, to Dharamsala. Yes. But before going to Dharamsala, I had this whole plan of studying with like South Indian gurus, South Indian saints.

34:46And then my dad walks into the house and says, you should go to the north. You should study Buddhism with the Dalai Lama. He lives in this little town. I was like, dad, what do you know? You know, we've never had like he's never spoken to me about religion in this way or spirituality in this way at all. So it was kind of like, OK. But I went in 2014 and then did one 10 day silent retreat in McLeod Gunge, this little village where his holiness lives. And that just cracked me open. You know, I heard this fundamental truth that we have this basic goodness that this unborn mind. And as Kaverly Morgan was on a podcast recently, this Zen teacher, and she spoke about the unborn mind.

35:31I was like, well, what a great term, this untouchable aspect of our beings that is benevolent and always good and peaceful and at ease and joyful and wise. So hearing that, but out of all these beautiful words, the one that really struck me was like, we are benevolent beings at the core of our beings. We are basically fundamentally good. And it was something that I needed to hear because, as I said earlier, like shame was like such a big curriculum in my life and feeling like something fundamentally wrong was at the base of my being. So hearing that was was massive. And then another big thing that happened was meditating on our own death and doing like a three day.

36:14It wasn't a three long days, but it was like three evenings meditating on our own death. And that really propelled me to just question and, you know, really look like, am I dying filled with regrets? Have I made amends? Have I learned to forgive? What is forgiveness? Can I forgive? Do I need to engage with that? Have I lived the life that I want to live? And all those big questions came, you know, flooding into that. And through that process, I was like, oh my God, I think I found the thing that I'm supposed to be doing is like, this is it. So I did later that year, I did a 30 day silent retreat, the same one that I was just doing in this past December in 2022.

37:00And then during that 30 days, when I took refuge and I really like bought into this view with the premises that if I take refuge and I follow these vows, no lying, no stealing, no killing, blah, blah, blah, all these, like some of these seem very simple, but it's really kind of like edgy to like not lie, not put people down, not put yourself down, not gossiping and stealing. Isn't just the stealing of things. It's like there is a, this energetic, the psychological stealing that happens so often between friends and between communities. So questioning all of that and having that, that view, I said, okay, if I do all this and my life changes for a year, then I'm going to keep going on this path.

37:49But if it doesn't, I'm going to go back and I'm just going to like go back to the old ways because that was at least some fun, you know? Yeah, it was at least fun, you know? And I looked, in my mind, I looked good doing it. So that's the kind of journey was like 2013 and 2014 and then, you know, have gone back to India eight or nine times and kind of, you know, just kind of kept going back and traveling to that part of the world. People wanted to do different things, but that part of the world just keeps calling me to like, there's more here to learn. And, and so that's kind of how it happened.

38:21And yeah, that's essentially, and then came back to New York, like being in and out of India for about two and a half years, that first time, 2016, the fall of 2016. And then it kind of just happened really quickly. I was very honest on social media about like my struggles with suicidal ideation, with depression, with addiction, with anxiety, all the demons that were visiting me and then me befriending them and learning from them and, and, and, you know, having tea with them, whatever language. Befriending them. That's such an interesting word. Well, cause there, we, we have to, right? Cause if they're visiting us, It's like the Sufi poet says, Rumi, if they're here, they're here with a message.

39:05And if we push them away, we are saying no to a guest that we have invited to our house. And it's like massive to think about like these feelings that visit us that feel really like a demon. They're so hard to be with. They're so hard to process and engage and look at. what if we open up to the view that they have been sent, that they have been invited by us, they might have just come at the wrong time in our view, right? But what if we treat every feeling that visits us as a guest that we have genuinely sat down and written an invitation to them to come have tea at our house? So that was what the process was like.

39:45It was like a really big, vulnerable share. People on social media felt like they were reading my journal because that's what it was. I think putting stuff out there for me at that point was keeping myself accountable to being liberated and opening myself up to change. And so that's kind of how it happened. And then one thing led to another, you know, you get asked to write a book and you get asked to do this. And then, you know, it just all kind of goes from there. It's going well. I mean, when you really think about it. It's going really well, surprisingly well, and also so wild to have responsibility to this level, you know, where it's really wild to have this amount of responsibility to help people.

40:33I don't think of it as responsibility at all, as a matter of fact. I mean, I struggled with that for a very long time, believe it or not. And now I'm like, no, it's a gift. I think we both agree, right, to find a path to somehow just make one person, you know, one person feel better. That's amazing, right? And then I realized at a point in time that perhaps I'm just relaying messages that are not really mine. I probably think you feel the same. You know, it's either we learn this from someone else or, you know, it's being sent through you to someone else. And I don't know. I think that feeling of responsibility, I take it seriously, very seriously.

41:18I still believe it or not, sir. I still answer every single message. I mean, no, I can't say every single message, but probably 98 % of all the messages I get on social media. It's a nightmare of a job, I swear to you. But I absolutely love it. And I don't think of it as a burden. I just simply say, oh my God, someone wants to talk to me. That's such a privilege, right? It's quite interesting when you think about it. But then your approach was quite refreshing, I have to say, right? So if you don't mind me saying, being queer and being very open about it, being so flamboyant and artistic. I mean, the first time we met, I was like, oh my God, like this guy, look at this, right?

42:04And we're talking about deep Buddhist topics and artificial intelligence. and you're like totally, totally colorful and wonderful and laughing. And it's just amazing. And I think something caught up there. Like people were like, yeah, I can follow that guru. I like that guru, right? Did you feel that? Yeah, I mean, look, I think that, thank you for naming that and for celebrating that. Yes, all of that. And I just wanna say like the responsibility piece is just to make sure that I'm genuinely keeping my heart and my mind and my body and my words and my actions in the right place, really constantly in that orientation of what we say in the Mahayana Vajrayana Buddhist path, the Bodhisattva path, how can my life be of service to other people?

42:58Every orientation of my inner and outer world be of service to others. and taking that vow really kind of like it's a it's a heavy lift and a big sort of thing to carry you know so that's the responsibility is just kind of keep doing that because sometimes you know I I kind of just want to veg out and just you know do nothing or look at other people doing different things with their lives and I'm like wow remember when I used to get like drunk and high at the club Wow, I miss that. I miss just like being like a mess in that way, you know, and then I'm like, okay, I have a different mission in life.

43:39So the responsibility is just like that constantly remembering to remember that I this life I have devoted to helping others while helping myself to truly become free. So it's, it's a it's a big lift that you understand. And, you know, to go back to the kind of like, I just wanted to point that out. So the queerness, I think it's a big thing because when I was, it's a big thing to see people celebrating this sort of path that we're, this community that we're creating together. Because, you know, when I was at those early years in India, I was trying to be like everybody else. I was very like, namaste and beautiful.

44:19And I was like, oh, that's beautiful. Something was sad. I was like, oh, that's sad. It was like there was not a lot of I wasn't very expressed. I wasn't very alive in the ways that I that I am alive today. And I, you know, that I've been for a while because I was afraid that that was not acceptable in the in the spiritual space. I felt like I needed to do the things that people were doing in order for me to fit in. And essentially the same thing I did before trying to like play into the normalcy of society and kind of pass as as heteronormative and all the things that queer people have to do.

44:54Now I was doing it in the spiritual space. Like, how could I pass as normal? So people would and I did air quotes for everybody who's listening. How can I pass as normal? Because there's nothing or there's no one who is normal. Normal is, you know, as Gabba Mante says, it's a myth. Right. Yeah. Um, so essentially what I'm saying is I, it took a while for me to like unleash my own true authentic self. It took a while for me to like celebrate my wildness, my queerness, my flamboyant is my true inner artists. It took a minute for me to arrive at this place where I'm like, this is who I am. I am talking about deep things in a, in a, in a, in a playful way.

45:33And that's my brand of liberation, like it or not. That's what I'm doing with my little corner of the world. But it was a lot of pushback, a lot of these holy places, a lot of these ashrams and monasteries and people. I write about this in my work, too, having been like humiliated, you know, at a Dharma center in Bodh Gaya. Yeah, it's like people are afraid of authenticity. It just triggers their inauthenticity. It triggers all the ways that they're not living out their truth, you know. So when I walk into a place and I'm being, I'm living out my truth, my expression, my queerness, my artistry, it shines a light and all the stuff that they're not willing to look at.

46:16So it became this thing and, and his holy places. So that was initially it was like, oh shit, I shouldn't do this. I should stop. I should try to like fit in more. And then I was like, no, imagine all the young queer people of color who are looking up, who are wishing that they could arrive at these places and see someone that, they felt represented in or to listen to a dharma that they can find themselves in you know historically the dharma that has reached the west or even when you go out to the east a lot of the dharma centers are packed with uh you know hetero cis white people so it's a very sort of we have to realize that the buddha was a brown man and it's a it's a lineage of the of of historically a brown people.

47:00And in the West, we have sort of whitewashed it and through a lot of good has come from, you know, westernizing it and the bravery of the white folks who went, who ventured into India and Nepal to study this. And also we have to then teach a Dharma that's way more inclusive than the ones that have been, than the Dharma that's been taught before by mostly white folks in the last few decades. So my work is to really just clarify the Dharma and like make it more playful and artful and keep the depth of it, obviously, and the profundity of it too. But it has to be delivered in a way that people like I was, the person that I was, young seeker, can hear and can relate to and not feel alienated and feel like, okay, here I am running away from Christianity.

47:54and now I'm finding a punitive God in all these people. Like here I'm running away from this punitive approach to liberation, aka, you know, this God that punishes into the Buddhist path. But now instead of having a punitive God, I'm seeing that punitive God expressed in all these people who are saying that they're holy and saying that they're practitioners. So that's it. This is where I'm at. It's that expression. I love you for that. I have to say I absolutely adore you for doing this. I think religion goes wrong at two levels, right? One level is they sort of try to build a mold for someone and say that someone is simply the way we want you to look, the way we want you to behave.

48:39And if you're not behaving that way, then good luck. You're not one of the crew. You're going to either burn in hell or you're going to end up with a lot of bad karma, right? And I don't believe that to be true at all. I had a conversation once without sharing names with a Muslim imam, like a scholar. And he came to me and said, I can't go back to my home country. I can't. And I said, why? What happened? And he said, I'm supposed to teach the Quran there. People pray behind me and I'm an imam and a leader and so on. and I suddenly realized that I like men. And I was like, it was the first time I was given this as a conversation and I said, you know, in my immediate heart, I was like, and what's wrong with that?

49:31And he said, Islam doesn't approve of this. And I said, but it also doesn't approve of lying. It also doesn't approve of usury and so on and so forth. and everyone who will ever judge you is doing one of those things, right? And by the way, those things are actually wrong. They hurt others, right? You have a choice in life to tell yourself, do I want to lose my entire connection with my spirituality because I feel a certain way or do I also want to be spiritual when I feel that way, right? And then the second thing that religion sometimes does is it says, and by the way, if you're that person, okay, you can't even talk about spirituality anymore because you don't represent us.

50:22And I'm like, is this a football team? Like, what are we talking about here? There are so many people. I mean, statistically, I don't know the numbers. Of course, it's very hard to measure. But you know, we're talking about a good portion of humanity today that makes that choice, right? So what do we prevent them from talking about spirituality, if we ask them to talk about spirituality, they'll reach others who want to listen to them. Like, why are we preventing people from doing that? Why is it that we can take one point of life and say, look, if you wear a yellow jacket, you're not part of the team.

50:59Where did that come from? And I actually, one of the things that I really enjoyed the first time we met is you're wearing the yellow jacket quite proudly. It's like, you know what? And I know my dharma. I know what I'm talking about, right? And I can make people feel better. And you know what? I can make people that you will never reach feel better, okay? That's so eye-opening. And I think that's really where the change should start to come in. Thank you for naming that. That's so sweet. It is the truth, man. It is the truth. Our world has so many wrong things. It's nice to hear. You have, you know, you have a lot of people listening to you and you have a lot of influence.

51:42And that comes with the responsibility. And thank you for celebrating my little corner of the world. We have to celebrate when things are in alignment with the highest good of all beings. I think we're in the world right now where, I mean, looking at American news, it's, oh, my God. I am like, it's so hard to just have a good day. It's just an ongoing nightmare of things happening. And then I'm just, it's amazing to me. Amazing being simplistic and really like sweet about it. It's like devastating, you know, like I work at a homeless shelter here in Venice, California and Venice Beach in LA. And, you know, just seeing the severity of their situation and neighbors wanting to push them out of the space of the neighborhood because Venice has become this like fancy shishy neighborhood where everyone, you know, is$5 ,000 for a one-bedroom apartment now.

52:47So then in this area of Venice, they have this like really, you know, massive parking lot that's turned into this living quarters for people who are unhoused. And just seeing the kind of struggles that that community goes through to keep that place going. Everyone who's marginalized, I feel like it's heightened. We're in a time where things are heightened. It's like there's more light and resources and potential. And also the shadow, the darkness is being exposed in such a, you know, massive ways that it's really hard to like go through a day where you're like, okay, cool. Today was sincerely a good day all around.

53:29It's like saying that is so selfish, right? Because when we tune into the pain of the world, we tune into the pain of being human, we look at the pain that's around the corner. And I'm going a little bit of a rant here, but just hear me out for a second. And this is something I've been talking to a lot of different spiritual teachers come on on my podcast talking about self-care and personal development and feeling better about yourself and achieving your dreams. And I'm like, F all of that. If your spiritual practices and your self-care practice are not leading you to become an activist, then it's not spiritual.

54:03It's not spiritual at all, my dear. Personal development and spirituality, there's a big line in the middle. Personal development is about me, mine and I. spirituality is about we how can we do better feel better create a better world so i'm just in this other season of my life with my mom's death where i have no tolerance for people talking about manifestation in my life and my needs and me me me me i'm like enough look at every single genuine ancient scripture the common denominator in all is compassion what does that mean care for yourself where it can for others. Care for others where it can for yourself.

54:40Lift someone else that will help to lift yourself. And people don't want to hear that because we want the pity party. We want to stay intoxicated in our own spiral. And I can only say this with audacity that I have to say right now because I've been there. I have wanted to unalive myself for a long time. I have been an addict. I have experienced depression. I've experienced anxiety. I've experienced the depth of the Valley of Shadows, I've been there. And through the work of being there, you learn to see in the dark, your eyes reacclimate and you start to be able to see, you know, that it isn't as dark as we thought it was.

55:16It might just be a little shoelace in the corner. It's not a snake. That kind of thing starts to be a revelations that we have on the path. And then when we have these revelations, if you're not helping other people have these revelations, it's not the spiritual path, I'm sorry. And I'm just constantly saying that. And I have Zen teachers come on the show and they're very diplomatic, right? And I'm like, I'm not diplomatic. I'm just tired of the diplomacy that we're going about. Liberation is not working. It's doing harm for a lot of people. And it's keeping people with a lot of privilege and a lot of resources, feeling okay about keeping all the resources to themselves when that is not spiritual, period.

55:57You know, I don't know another way to say it. But anyways, whatever you said prompted me to say this and there it is, laid it out. It's the biggest issue of our planet, honestly. It really is. There was a study once that, you know, in Islam here in the Middle East, people are supposed to pay two and a half percent in charity every year. Two and a half percent of whatever you saved. So whatever you didn't use for a year. It's not your income. But if you had money in a bank or jewelry or whatever, and you didn't use it for a year, you pay two and a half percent of that in charity. And there was a brave person that once said, well, I did a calculation.

56:36And if every rich Muslim paid two and a half percent of their savings as a charity, there wouldn't be a single hungry person on earth. Right. And here's the question. The question is, honestly, I mean, if I told you it's going to cost you 2.5 % of your money next year to polish your shoes, right? Most people will say, yeah, no problem. Or to put my stuff in laundry or whatever. Yeah, I'll do that. People don't think that big of 2.5%, right? And yet when it comes to help others, like just seriously, seriously, just take 1 % or 2 % of your savings, not of your income, and just give those away, most people will go like, hold on, hold on.

57:22They got themselves into this. They are the reason why they're homeless. What difference does it make? Seriously. I very often actually sometimes when people go into debate with me, I go like, okay, keep everything you want. I just want you to spend one night in January on the streets of New York homeless. one night okay and when you're done with that and you've had the experience if you don't feel the compassion I don't know what you are, you must be a rock. But honestly, what's happening in our world is that the single idea of me, me, me, and I need to be better than my neighbor, it's not I need my neighbor to catch up.

58:08And it's so interesting, so interesting how our world is ending because of that. It's really awful. And thank you for speaking to that. And thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak to that too. I think we really have to. What would you ask people to do if people listening to us nod and say, yeah, this is something that I should pay more attention to? I think I love the donating of the resources and I think that's wonderful. And I also need a nervous system upgrade from people. I need a mindset upgrade from people. I need a somatic up level from people, which means none of that is going to happen if you just send in a check.

58:48None of this is going to happen if you just put in your credit card and press enter to that charity, that organization. None of it will happen. You're going to talk about it at the dinner party later today to get some looks and some like, oh, good job. I'm so glad you did that. Or your partner may be happy for you. But that's not giving the somatic upgrade that we need. It's not the spiritual upgrade that you need and the world needs. That will only happen when you put your life in the line, which means go sign up to volunteer. Go put your body in the line. Go get a nervous system upgrade. Go be around people in extreme despair and see what happens inside of you.

59:23Do you revert to a punitive mindset, which is very natural? It's a very natural thing to happen. Like, oh my God, these people are this and that. Like they shouldn't be allowed to this. Like the punitive approach, right? Or do you feel completely scared that your life is more important than theirs? Or do you just completely shut down and run away? all the sort of normal fight, flight, or freeze approaches that we have towards all kinds of random things. If you truly want to get a glimpse of God, liberation, enlightenment, transformation, go put yourself on the line, go be of service, you know, and it's a variety of different ways.

1:00:02You can pack up granola bars in your bag and just hand them out to the neighbors who live on the street, where you can actually sign up to do a two to three hour training and get your fingerprint scanned to see what kind of, it's a little bit of a process, right? To actually volunteer in an institution, but do it or cook a meal. Me and my partner, we're not doing that right now. You know, Ben is traveling, I was traveling, but cooking a big tray of mac and cheese and bringing to the community in Skid Row. So there's so many ways. there's 42 ,000 people unhoused in Los Angeles. That's insanity.

1:00:44That's insanity. You know, that's like, it's really like, it's just, it's heartbreaking that we're turning a blind eye to human beings. Freedom is relational. Like we have to understand that unless we're all free, we're not free. So if you don't put yourself on the line and different schools of Buddhism say different things about that. But again, I practice Mahayana Vajrayana, which is a little different, which means that unless we help others get free, we're not essentially going to unlock our true potential for our own freedom. And there's discussions on that, but that's my view. That's how I'm digesting the Dharma.

1:01:18That's how I am speaking about it. So my ask for everybody would be to go be of service, go offer your time to those in need, and you're going to be surprised. That's going to be the biggest antidepressant dose that you've have her taken. Like literally if you, and I'm not, I'm not demonizing medicine. I love medicine. My mom was in chemotherapy and also doing all the holistic treatments that we can find. I'm all for it. And also we need to know that there are so many ways to find freedom, to, to get free while helping other people to get free too. You know, it's service, service across every religion, across every mystical path.

1:01:58It's, it's service that will lead you there. 100%. So we haven't even started talking about your work yet. So let's just jump in. So you created the SA method, the somatic activated healing. What is that? Thank you. Thank you for bringing that up. So the SA method came, was born out of, the way it was born was, I mean, what is it? It's not, I will just give you the background story, just for context a little bit, I would do mantras, meditate, do breath work, and then I would dance. And I would put the dance video on social media. And a lot of people would be like, oh my God, I'm coming alive just watching you.

1:02:40Something is happening just as I watch you. And then I wasn't really realizing that at that point, there was like all these prerequisites or precursor to the dance. I would do my prayers, my mantra, my meditation, my breath work before I dance. so i was like oh interesting all of these practices together are what the somatic activated healing method is so long story short i'm putting these videos out there and then i get a message from deepak chopra's ceo in 2019 yes 2019 and they invite me to their office and they're like can you teach this and i was like teach this like i'm not teaching anything here i'm just like expressing my own freedom, expressing myself here.

1:03:24But we want that. Can you do that? And I was like, okay, maybe let me think about it. So then I have like maybe a few months before I'm on stage next to Deepak, whoever like looked up to and I'm like, oh my God, like if you know a name in a spiritual space, most people know Oprah Winfrey and Deepak Chopra. So I was like, whoa, epic. So I prepare what I thought was the method. Little did I know it was going to become this like very structured very sort of this very specific equation for healing, which is now known as the somatic activated healing method. Back then it was dense medicine. Back then it was like the Sa method, but the letters had no, they didn't mean anything.

1:04:06The Sa wasn't, the S wasn't for somatic, the A wasn't for activated, and the H wasn't for healing, which was just like, here's my method. I'm just putting together these four practices that have historically, factually helped people across culture to become better versions of themselves. And I'm just putting them all together in a specific way. There's nothing new. What's new is just me putting them together in this specific way. These practices have research behind all of them to help. So fast forward, I keep, I'm teaching it on Chopra's Global's Instagram account on IG Live every Friday for a year and a half.

1:04:43And that built this like momentum. And I really started to like learn what is that I'm doing? What is this practice actually doing for people? And I started to then create the sort of philosophy and equation behind the method, which essentially is teaching people to be in their bodies, to come home to their bodies, to get out of their heads and get back into their bodies. To the premise of it is that it's, there is a top down approach to healing and a bottom up approach to healing, right? I'm being simplistic here, but a lot of people are adopted the bottom, the top down, which is talk to your therapist, speak about your suffering, talk about it.

1:05:24And by talking about it, you're going to change how you feel. And therefore, if you change how you feel, you're going to change how you think. Therefore, you're going to change how you speak and how you act. Wonderful. That works. but also if you talk to therapists a lot of therapists right now and there's a lot of research that shows where therapy and somatic work begins where therapy ends it's where we have to then go into the body and work with the feelings because a lot of times by talking about our suffering talking about our stories we are activating these memories and these memories have a lot of a lot of emotional charge attached to them so unless your therapist is giving you the exact tools to do somatic work, meaning be with the feelings process, the feelings let go of the feelings.

1:06:05You're walking out of the therapy room feeling like you have a change of perspective linguistically, conceptually a change of perspective, but the change hasn't happened somatically. It's not lived in the body. So it kind of goes away for a little bit and then it kind of like resurfaces again. And then next thing you know, you're back with those same feelings, the same stories, the same memories still have that charge. So that's the top-down approach. Now, the bottom-up approach, it's a somatic approach. It's what we're doing in the SAHM method, which means we're not engaging stories whatsoever, which the premise is that we don't have to remember what happened to us or what we did in order for us to heal.

1:06:43The result of trauma is in our bodies, is in the present moment right here, right now. We don't have to remember exactly what happened, which means that stories are not needed. What's needed is an awareness of what's going on in the body. simple practice. So when teachers who are now being certified in this method are practicing, it's when you're working one-on-one with clients or one-on-one with clients, that's when that kind of context happens. We're only getting a kind of like newspaper clipping of someone's story, never a storifying or allowing them to go into that place because the weight of the past is still in the present if you haven't processed it.

1:07:25So the premise of the work is to get people to track and trace and be with the feelings in their bodies as they arise. And through the breath, the affirmations or the mantras, the meditation and the specific moves that I've created, we are creating a kind of a gateway for feelings to come up and go out. So looking at research, there's research that shows that we have you know way more emotions that i'm about to say but based on research from the the center for for greater good the science center for greater good maybe i'm saying it wrong but this is the one out of berkeley that i love what they're doing there they said that we have an average 27 emotions every human being has so i paired down the 27 to 20 and i created specific moves for those 20 emotions 10 of them being shadow emotions 10 of them being light emotions, the bottom of it being shame and the top of it being enlightenment.

1:08:20And this is also based on the emotional guidance scale. I forgot the amazing dude who created that. So I have developed on specific things that have existed into creating these moves. So each of the moves are here to help people to activate those unprocessed feelings, those unmet feelings, and create the pathway for them to come up and out. So the Saan method is that. It's a way for people to be in their bodies no matter what's going on and to remind people that the way to heal is to not store a fire, conceptualize or think your way out of your suffering is to process the feelings. Because when you process the feelings that are in your body, your memories, which is the reason why you don't consider yourself healing or healed or better because they're haunting you still.

1:09:11And why does a memory haunt you? Because it has emotional charge. When a memory comes up and passes by like every other thought in your mind without an emotional charge, that's the work of the method that we're doing is to process the emotional charge associated with these hurtful, painful memories that we have. So the entire journey is to just let go of these feelings. They're not necessarily associated with the specific emotions, specific memories. And by processing these feelings, you're then changing relationship with those emotions. Therefore, you're becoming more present. Therefore, you can hear the world through your heart, not through your neurosis.

1:09:48You can speak to the world without the poisonous tongue that you may have had in the past, but speak from the heart. You can see the world without the polarized dualistic view that you've had. But now you can see the world through the eyes of love, through the eyes of the heart. So that's a very simple way of explaining what the method is. That's essentially helping people to just be in their bodies and stop scaping the present moment because we have been trained and colonized and indoctrinated. And really, we've become prolific at multitasking because it's a trauma response that helps us to stay out of our bodies, meaning stay out of feeling.

1:10:26Which is very safe, but no healing comes from safety in this way. Of course, we need to enter safe environments to heal, but the kind of healing that we're talking about here requires you to step out of what you deem comfortable and safe, which means you're going to have to feel some shit that is not pleasant. So that's a little bit of it. I hope that makes sense. Even the movement bit, I mean, the dance bit, it has lots of references in spiritual teachings, like the whirling of the dervishes or the ecstatic dance of the shamanic sides and so on. You know, there seems to be, as you rightly said, there is evidence that this works as a spiritual practice, right?

1:11:07Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's all there. I mean, the only thing that I have done is kind of created some like language that feels a little new, but nothing is new under the sun. And that's something that I'm kind of like tired of it. It's sometimes, you know, I was driving to meet Peggy and Jolene, the director of the His Wholeness of Dalai Lama's and Archbishop Desmond Tutu's documentary, Mission Joy, driving to their house the other day. And I was just like drinking a matcha latte and like listening to Gregorian chants, which is what I love to listen to when I'm driving. Very Catholic of me, which is beautiful.

1:11:43They're beautiful songs. They're beautiful hymns. They really touch me in a deep way. But as I was driving, I was like, why do I feel the need to teach my own brand of compassion? Why do I have this desperate need to teach my own brand of liberation? Why am I so hung up on it? And it's so the opposite of emptiness. It's so the opposite of interconnectedness. It's so the opposite of the true path of liberation, according to the Buddhist view. And I'm still doing it, you know? So it's this kind of like weird thing that I'm like, why am I doing it? But then I have to do it because other people, because we need queer Dharma teachers.

1:12:20We need queer spiritual teachers. We need my version of it is working. So it's this, it's this paradox where like, I'm so over this thing that I have to do my way because it doesn't exist, but it already exists. You know, it's already, it has already existed. So anyways, it's, I'm in a, I'm in a, I'm in a thing. I'm in a pickle. It's an existential pickle where I got to keep going because I'm helping people to get free and I'm getting free and also just questioning it. So I struggled with that myself. I mean, first of all, it's so humble of you to keep saying it's always been there. It's always been there.

1:12:58If you're the source of it and it's helping people, then it's there because of you, right? That's the truth, right? I struggled with this myself for quite a long time. As a matter of fact, I avoided social media very heavily. Until 2019, I think, I had 3 ,000 followers on Instagram. And I had 80 ,000 followers on LinkedIn, but that's because of my corporate career, right, at the time. And I insisted that I didn't want to be out there at all. And my team would really push me. It's like, Mo, every movement needs a face, right? Humans don't want a piece of paper that has four words written on it.

1:13:40They want to know who said it and why they said it. And they want to see an example in them. And I still, like you, I really struggle. I really struggle because in my mind, what I teach is just common wisdom, really. It's like, yeah, I may have added a few little discoveries of my own here and there. And by the way, every now and then I, you know, I discover that one thing that I thought was my discovery is, you know, available in this teaching or that teaching or that the Stoics have done it before. It doesn't seem to be new. Right. And yet, yet you somehow have to put yourself out there. and as you put yourself out there, it's quite interesting because specifically for you, Si, I think what ends up happening is people relate to you before they relate to the teaching, which I think is necessary, really.

1:14:37And I got to keep the lights on, you know, and I have a lot of adults who rely on me financially, so I got to keep going, you know, older people who really don't have the means and the energy and the vitality that I have right now to keep going. And I have to keep my lights on, their lights on. So it's a big responsibility. Back to responsibility, Mr. Desimond. Yeah. Back to the responsibility. That's right. Believe it or not, I struggled with that myself. Again, I mean, not for a public conversation, but I have a lot of promises to people who may not have life as easy as I had my life that, you know, next month will be okay, right?

1:15:18And for a very long time, you know, when I go on my silent retreats and so on, I tell myself, how can you do this? You know, you should be out there, you should be working, you should be doing something, you could get, you know, a few thousand more, and that would help more people. And then somehow there was a point at which where I said, do you actually think you're making that money? You know, that money comes to your bank account with someone else's name on it. I actually had a very wonderful conversation with my mom around this. Because my mom, I call her my business manager. So she manages all of my giving effort.

1:15:53Basically, anything that goes for good is basically her work, which I think is the most beautiful partnership we ever had, is that she's constantly using whatever I'm blessed with to help others. And every now and then, she would text me on WhatsApp or call me and say, Habibi, I'm going to spend this much or I'm going to do that thing. And I'm like, mom, why are you asking me? She says, it's your money. And I'm like, no, it's not. If it landed in your account, it has someone else's name on it. Okay. And it's a very interesting way, by the way, when you know how in financial services, when people say, pay yourself first.

1:16:30So sorry, financial planning, they basically say, take some of your money and put it in a savings account before you start spending for the month. and I realized at a very early point in my life that if you take a little bit of your money and give it to a charity account before you even spend it or think about spending it, the rest of the money is more than enough. It's quite interesting. So you can get$1 ,000 into your account and then spend$1 ,000 and at the end of the month you're out of dollars or you can get$1 ,000, send 100 of them to a charity account and then basically at the end of the month you'll spend 900 and you won't even feel the difference.

1:17:09It's quite an interesting way of doing it. But somehow it's not a responsibility. It is, I mean, to me, I think I push back because I feel the same feelings you feel. I keep reminding myself, no, no, no, it's a blessing that I am given the opportunity to be able to express my compassion. But if I, you know, I'm in a wheelchair tomorrow and I cannot do anything, I don't feel bad that I am not doing it anymore. I was just doing it by accepting the gift. Tell me a bit. I mean, finally, finally, we're going to talk about your book, the second book, right? Finally, which is out now. I haven't had the chance to read it.

1:17:51The title is fantastic. you know so you spiritually sassy and it's it is a very um systemic way so it's eight ways to activate or eight steps to to activate the super your superpower okay eight is very very methodic here this is not the sign no it's like okay you know let's have bullet points and be very accurate no art here yeah tell me a bit about it why did you write it and why do you think it's different well well thank you for for bringing that up the reason why i wrote it was out of this out of that feeling and that experience that i had to like keep fighting my my way into these holy places and i had to like fight my way into every table that i wanted to be at and i said enough fighting to get a sit at the table why don't i just build my own table over here like and i you know put it next to theirs and here's our table and everyone's welcome you know so that was it spiritually sassy is that it's saying that we don't have to keep fighting our way into into the perceived version of spirituality we can create our own version of it which is still you know filled with levity and and profundity and it's obviously playful and humorous but so spiritually sassy is that it's a it's a light-hearted approach to to liberation to freedom we go through several different practices and several different...

1:19:21Yeah, it's a practice book. So it's got a lot of self-inventory, self-analysis, accountability. And on the last chapter, it's about your expression in the world. It's about people not thinking that they have to become a spiritual teacher or a meditation teacher or a wellness writer or whatever it may be, or start a charity or open a hospital. they can do what they're doing as long as they are in touch with their hearts, which means that they have done a lot of self-revelation work, self-analysis work, but their expression in the world is coming from that genuine place, from that selfless place.

1:20:01And I believe if people do things from that place, if you are a jewelry maker or you're making food or you're making or you're building a home, whatever it may be, I think there is a sort of this energetic exchange that happens. If you are a jewelry maker and you make a beautiful earring from that place of like, may this be of benefit to the world, may this inspire the world and let this be like a reminder, a symbol for liberation, for happiness, for joy, for what's possible for people. When someone wears it and that earring has infused that kind of intention, I believe it can unlock symbolically for other people who are looking at it, this potential, this gateway, this path for others.

1:20:42So I emphasize that a lot in the book. And one part of the book that I want to speak about too was the chapter that I wrote that was what sold the book to Sounds True. The publishers really loved it was talking about forgiveness. I think a lot of people are very afraid of that and are very sort of shy away from it. And it's such a misunderstood practice. So in I think it's chapter four, I speak about how vital it is for you to learn to forgive as if you really want to advance spiritually and on your, you know, just if you want to like be more at home in your body and more at home in your life, you got to make peace with your past.

1:21:22So it's, I guide people in this like writing ritual for them to write these letters. And I think a lot of people think about forgiveness. This is one thing I'm going to say is, I think a lot of people think about forgiveness as something to do with between you and the other person, the ones that you've hurt or the ones who've hurt you. but the ways I speak about it it's a process between you and you meaning your mind your body your heart and your past and your perception of it making peace with that so there is this energetic shift that happens on a on a on a field that we don't have access to see with our eyes but maybe you can speak about that field uh it's very it's very on brand for you to talk about that field that I guess they call it quantum field or I don't know something but yeah I say that once we have a revelation between from our side it is on this field where i've seen many times happen where i have people in retreats or in my own life when i have forgiven myself for the ways i've harmed another person or i have forgiven someone else for the ways they've harmed me and then you know months or years or a week or a few days go by and i get a point of contact from that person And so forgiveness is key.

1:22:33In the book, it's at the halfway mark because for you to go to the next levels and the next things, you got to do that deep work of saying stop to the cycle of harm, stop to the cycle of pain. And then reminding yourself and others that what you've done isn't who you are at the base of your being. Trudy Goodman was on my podcast a couple of days ago and she says, there's a lot of things that people do that are unforgivable, but no person is unforgivable. What they do is unforgivable. Well, who they are is not unforgivable. So that working with that view where like guilt shows us that we feel bad about our actions and shame shows us that we feel bad about who we are.

1:23:21So in that chapter, we're kind of dismantling this guilt and shame idea that our actions are not who we are at the base of our being. Our mistakes are not who we are at the base of our being. So kind of dismantling that for people and helping people to just like really name their pain and name their struggles and name their guilt. And through that process, they can have a revelation. So that's a little something about the book. That's a lot of things about the book. I'm seeing a lot of something because it's like 15 minutes of me talking about it, you know? No, no, no, no. It's like a year-long process.

1:23:59That in itself requires a full podcast, I believe. And it's quite timely, I think, with your journey of healing for this year. I think that's definitely something that it's interesting how the world, how life works sometimes. Life gets you to a point where you have that tool. You know, the Middle Eastern religious view, basically, actually more in Islam, I think, it said that you are never tasked with a task that you're not capable of. Okay? That you get the task, it's a little stretching. It's not in your comfort zone, but you can. If you stretch yourself, you'll get there and the tools will be there for you.

1:24:46And so in your case, the tools have been written by you. So there you go. There you go, my dear friend. Do the work. Yeah, do the work. Read your own book. Exactly. You know, it's quite interesting for me how that journey never stops, really. It's quite interesting because now I'm old, you know, and I still sit with myself literally on a weekly basis and say, oh, my God, I did not know that about me, right? Oh my God, I need to do this work. Oh my God. And it's of course, those things are still big in magnitude compared to how far I've come with where I am right now. They're still significant.

1:25:30But in the past, I would have never uncovered the need for them because I had other work to do. And I'm in a very good place. But hey, wouldn't it be amazing if I did this as well, or if I learned that as well, or if I managed to flow with this a little better and so on. I don't want to take more of your time. I think this was such a wonderful conversation. You constantly reaffirm how much I love you. You're such a wonderful human being. And you're so open and genuine and authentic and fun to be around. It's just easy, honestly. You make it look like, yeah, we can all do this. It's not that difficult.

1:26:10And I think that's really what's inspiring. about what you do. I always close with one question, your secret to happiness. Do you have a secret to happiness? Oh my goodness, my secret to happiness. Wow. Do I have a secret? No, I don't have a secret. I mean, what I do have is these days, it's like, I choose to be in my body. I choose to remind myself to be in my body. And it's really hard to be present in your body. It could be excruciating to be present and aware of it. Wow, I'm alive. I'm in this body. So that's my secret to happiness. It's like stay in your body, even if it feels like a hell realm and freedom will come from that.

1:26:57That's a very big one, believe it or not. Less spoken about because I think most of our teachers are not even that good at it. Many of our teachers are not even that good at it. I definitely am not the best at it, I'll tell you. How old are you, Mo? I'm now, are we going to say this publicly in front of all my listeners? Is that okay? I'm sorry, I'm always curious. No, no, it's good. I want to age and be, you know, I just, I'm curious. And I want to have you back on my show to ask you so many things about life. And you said, I'm old now. You named it. So then I'm taking the invitation to ask you.

1:27:35That's why. I'm not physically old at all. So I'm 56, right? I'm not physically old at all. I feel 34, okay? And people who are close to me say, oh, no, you're a lot better than 34, right? I'm not old in my mind at all, okay? You're not. I'm very, very liberal and very open and very childish and playful and silly. I'm really silly. Like, I'm really silly. Don't say that to people who are listening to us on the podcast. People, I didn't say I'm silly. I'm very wise. No, but truly, I mean, I think that some of the wisest people I've ever met, His Holiness of Dalai Lama, for example, their inner child is very alive.

1:28:16But I will tell you openly, Sa, I feel I have lived so much. so much it's quite something actually i feel i lived in this life alone probably 70 lives and and actually more and more and more i i have seen so many experiences i have seen every kind of pain every kind of joy every kind of uncertainty and so there is a very unusual feeling of age in me like I feel several hundred years old it's a very unusual feeling and I'm start it's starting to dawn in me more and more and more because very rarely is there anything that feels new okay and it's a very unusual place to be. Of course, the curiosity is still there.

1:29:15I'm very, very curious. But yeah, it just, I think I'm so present in those lives as well that I remember every single one of them so clearly that it feels like several lifetimes. It's a very unusual feeling. And it's been dawning on me more and more in the last couple of years. It's not a health issue. It's not an age, you know, age is not slowing me down at all. As a matter of fact, I'm extremely fast. I just feel that I've lived so much. It's very strange. But it's also very interesting that you ask about what it's like to be aging. Because I remember vividly, I was 42 when I went to my mom.

1:29:58and I said, mom, why didn't you tell me that all of this was going to happen? You know, there is a certain pattern to life, especially when you're in love and at work and in family and so on. We think that all of our lives are different, but there are very global patterns that we all repeat. And I said, you knew this was going to happen. You knew this, you know, that I was going to work really hard and I was going to be successful and then it was going to feel empty. Why didn't you tell me beforehand? And she, you know, in a very typical mom way, she said, she said, and, and where would the fun be?

1:30:34I was like, who wants the fun? I wanted to cut, you know, shortcut those, you know, learnings. And she was spot on actually that, yeah, the fun is in living it. It is experiencing it and feeling it. Even if it's painful, that's where the fun is. yeah wow thank you for saying all that i really appreciate it and i'm just going to reflect one thing and then uh we'll go i love the i feel like i've seen it all and i'm also still curious that is so profound so thank you because that is a lot of people are hung up on i've seen it all bye i'm jaded now what you said in the same breath in the same sentence i've seen it all and i'm still curious.

1:31:19That is so deep. And we could spend a whole nother hour just talking about that, because that paradox is profound. It really is what life is about. We know nothing at all, sir. We've seen nothing at all. Right? There has never been an experience that you lived twice, ever. Okay? Even though they seem the same, oh, I dated the same kind of person, and she did the same thing. No, not at all. You were a different person. She was not exactly the same. the experience was totally different, only if you pay attention, right? Only if you're deep enough to actually recognize what's happening. Every meal has its own subtleties.

1:31:59Every, you know, every time you listen to your favorite song, it's playing on Spotify the same exact song, but it's not the same because it's mixed with your emotions and your current, you know, state and the temperature of the room and the time of the day and your memory. It's never the same. And you can savor every single one of them. It's absolutely mind blowing how rich this life can be. Wow. I love you. I love you too. Thank you so much. I think you're an amazing human being. I'm very, very grateful that you came to join me. And I would love, love, love for us to keep the conversation. You're such a wonderful human.

1:32:40Thank you. Same. I appreciate you so much. Thank Thank you so much. Thank you. And for all of you listening, I hope you felt this. I ignored you this time. I didn't have you in mind. I wasn't talking to Sa for you to listen to his wisdom. I was talking to Sa because this is someone that I truly admired the first time I met. And I just wanted to get to know him. And you happen to have been on the other side of the camera. I hope you enjoyed getting to know him as much as I did. What a wonderful human being. I hope that you learned in your heart that there is no specific mold that we need to fit in to be spiritual.

1:33:18There is no specific mold that we need to fit in to teach someone something. As a matter of fact, for most of us, there is one thing or a few things that are super unique about us. And if we live them fully, then we can help our world. I would ask all of you to find the compassion in your hearts to send wonderful positive energies for my friend here. You don't understand what it's like unless you've lost someone that you love dearly. So I will ask all of you to send him positive energy to heal, to send him positive wishes, to send him positive prayers. this is the least of your compassion is to wish in your heart that another person goes through his journey with ease whatever you it is that you're doing this week i will remind you one more time that life is lived a lot better when you slow down every now and again so whatever it is that you're doing regardless of how busy you are this week find a tiny bit of time to slow down i love you all for listening and i will see you next time