Sah D'Simone - How Community Transforms Your Spiritual Journey

31:46And we're calling that quality time. There's memes on social media showing two friends. Oh, this is how I know she's my best friend. And it's two people sitting next to each other on their phones. It's like we've lost the plot. I'm sure the guys who put this technology together, this is not what they wanted for us. But somehow we went in a really far off place that it's kind of insanely hard to pull ourselves back. But the book is a call to action. Put your phone down. Research shows that we pick up our phones an average of 10 times an hour. And I'm like, that's very conservative research. Very conservative to me.

32:26I think 10 times every 10 minutes. You know what I mean? So it's like, it's way more than that. And every time we pick up our phone, what if our choice to go on the phone was actually a call to address loneliness, visiting our body. and we understood that going on the phone is like eating Wonder Bread, empty calories or eating sugar. You're going to feel good for a second, but it will pass and there's going to be a crash. What if you actually chose to say hi to a stranger? What if you actually chose to engage with someone at yoga class next to you? What if you actually like went to a coffee shop and you're not on your phone the whole time or computer?

33:06You actually said, hey, what are you working on? You look, I like your shoes, you know? Like we've lost that. We've lost the social integration capacity because of our insatiable thirst to be distracted. And what's underneath distraction is loneliness knocking our bodies. And we don't know how to feel. And because we don't know how to feel, we want to distract ourselves from the call to action, which is, I feel lonely. What can I do about it? It's not I feel lonely because I'm a bad person. I suck at this. I don't have any friends. Blah, blah, blah. It's like, no. loneliness is urging you to get out of your own way, stop overthinking, stop overidentifying with your stories and reach out, engage.

33:52You see, this is spot on. I did a bit of work in Unstressable on the idea of why is it that we reach out to our phones so frequently? And, you know, distraction really is the result of emotional discomfort. There is a reason why you're escaping that feeling that you have right now. And most of the time it's because you're underwhelmed with your life as it is. And most of the time, the biggest reason for that is because you don't have human connection, right? And so the funniest bit and the disgrace really is that to cure an emotional discomfort that's stemming from your loneliness, you're reaching out to your phone, that's making you more lonely.

34:37Yeah. And we're screwed. And I ask a few questions at the end of that bit in the book. And I say, so what happens when you feel lonely and you escape your loneliness to the phone? You end up with more loneliness, right? What happens when you feel underwhelmed? And so you try to fill your life with more by reaching out to your phone. You get less and you're more underwhelmed, right? And what happens when you have a fear of missing out? so you reach out to your phone, you end up missing out on the one thing that matters most, which is to live, right? And it's so interesting when humanity starts to miss that because the device is designed in such a way, the entire entertainment industry, I would say, is designed in such a way that basically says, no, no, no, no, don't take your time away to connect to real humans.

35:28Just stay here. Let me advertise to you. A lot of people know that I spent a bit of my life probably a very defining bit of my life a year and a half i worked for british american tobacco which at the time taught me you know first recruited me by saying this is adult choice right we give adults choices just like you know porsche gives them a fast car and i was like yeah i'm all for adult choice right and then eventually very quickly you recognize that the objective of the industry is not to give you a choice at all because if you have a choice you wouldn't smoke as much. And believe it or not, the biggest threat to that industry at the time in the Middle East was people smoking shisha, you know, hubbly-bubbly.

36:13Oh, yeah. I used to love that shit. Exactly. Because what ends up happening is that you're spending so much more of your time in one smoking session that you don't go back to your frequent drug of cigarettes, which during a typical smoking session of shisha, you'll probably smoke eight cigarettes or six cigarettes during that time. And that's like, you know, a good 40 % of the revenue, 30 % of the revenue of a day. And I think that's what our technology is doing to us. It's simply telling us, come here, let me distract you a little so that you don't think about your real issues, so that you don't go out there and find a friend, right?

36:55The thing though, which I think is the reason for my opening question for you is that you so casually say, when you go to a cafe, look at someone and say, I like your shoes. How many people do you know can do that? I mean, it's actually a very difficult skill. This is what we need to do, Mo. We have to break the ice. Like people ask me, where do I meet friends like you? Where do I meet cool people? Where do I meet people who are on a spiritual path where we're creating impacts in the world? My answer is very simple. Be where you wish to be found. So if you're wanting to be around, you know, around people who are practicing happiness or practicing well-being, who are developing their mind, opening their hearts, you are not going to go to happy hour because you know that two for one drinks is not going to give you happiness, you know?

37:43No deep connections there. Yeah. Nothing. It's so fickle. It's so vain. It's superfluous, you know? And instead of you saving up your money to go on that drunk cruise that you go or to the Tulum vacation or to the whatever. Like, see if you can go to a spiritual retreat. See if you can go on an impact mission. See if you can go build homes in a country that needs support. Or you can go dig a well in that country. Like, one thing I say to people, if you want to meet really down-to-earth cool people, go volunteer. You're always going to meet cool people who are so at ease with themselves, who know that suffering is kind of endless, but they're still trying to do something about it.

38:23And they live in integrity, easier to engage with those people because they've already done a lot of the work to understand that it's really hard to be human. And unless we do it together, it's impossible to do it alone. And I think the truth is, is for you to say, I like your shoes. Yeah, it may feel like an impossible task. It may feel like a really tall order to say to someone after yoga, hey, I really like your practice. You really strong, beautiful postures, you know, or whatever. Maybe there's so many ways that we can compliment people. You have to start. You have to start. And one way for you to test that, it's called social integration.

39:05Do you know your neighbors? Do you know you're the person who makes your coffee at the coffee shop every morning? Do you know the person who cleans your house? Do you even know the person who cleans your house? Do you know that their daughter is going to music school in New York City and they're about to become a fucking icon? Like, do you know that's happening? Do you know that your doctor actually goes to Paris every summer because it's his wife's favorite? Whatever. We're not socially integrated. We're like, it's the disassociation has become so normalized. But you have to break the mold. I had a little experience here.

39:42I just moved into a new building not too long ago. And I teach a somatic dance practice. So there's loud music twice a month. And it's just one hour twice a month. And I played music. I taught the class here. And then after the class for that hour, I had a note at my door. Hey, we're working next door. Can you please keep it down? And I was like, okay, cool. So before I knocked on the doors, I created a little peace offering. What did I do? go to the local grocery store here, bought a vegan gluten-free, sugar-free chocolate cake, because I feel like chocolate is a norm. Everybody likes chocolate.

40:20And I got without all the things to make sure they fit the bill for everybody. We have so many restrictions on how we eat these days. Bought two of them. And I knocked on the door to the left and no one answered. And I knocked on the door to the right and someone answered. And it's like, oh, the neighbor on the right said, oh, Oh, no problem at all. I actually didn't even hear. And I was like, okay, cool. Here's a chocolate cake. Thank you. And, you know, just so you know, I do this a couple times a month. He's like, yeah, no problem. And do you want to take my number so we can have each other's numbers since we're neighbors?

40:52And I was like, absolutely. See, that experience. And then the neighbor on the left, I didn't get to meet them. But guess what? I came home and I wrote them a letter explaining the work that I do, explain that this happens twice a month for one hour each day. And I got the letter, taped it to a bag, put the chocolate cake inside and left it at their door. Did they ever reach out and say something or text me because I put my number on? No, but it doesn't matter because the point of contact has started. And most importantly, I have dissolved the barriers of connection from my body, from my heart, from my spirit.

41:31I'm more open. Every time we engage, when we are uncomfortable, every time we reach out, what we want to stay in, we're dissolving the barriers that are keeping us stuck. We're changing, to speak your language, we're changing the neural pathways in our brain. We're becoming better at saying, nice shoes. I like your yoga practice. I think that's really, really the crux of the matter. Really the core of this is what you just said there is definitely a fear of rejection when you speak to people will they open the door or will they not will they be kind and nice and exchange numbers or will they and i think that the trick is does it matter this practice is your practice it's not theirs you know it's the idea of you being able i make it a point i mean not always but i call them low stake conversations right you know the most awkward place where people really for some reason feel like they're repulsed from each other is an elevator okay and there are a few standard lines you can think of that you can use in an elevator most of them would be fun and most of most of them would start an interesting conversation i'm in a hotel today and i can guarantee you in the morning when i'm going down to breakfast everyone will just take a corner and stay in the very furthest end from each other and I'll say something like I know it's eight o 'clock nobody's had their coffee and I'm not supposed to talk but hey good morning everyone right and what would happen like if they ignore me like none of them what if two of them look at me strange like is that going to end my life I'll tell you however I've never had one of those whatever the comment I said in an elevator where someone didn't talk to me right and you know yesterday there was someone but you have to put your card to get to the correct floor.

43:22And I just said the simplest thing. Lovely lady. Actually, I met her husband today in the morning. They're from New York, flying all the way to the Middle East. And, you know, she's in the fourth floor. I'm in the 15th floor. So I put my card first, pushed 15. By the time she pushed, you know, put her card, she was already in the fifth. So I said, yeah, too slow. That's all I said. Like, yeah, too slow. It's just something that comes from your heart and she smiled and she said so what I'll go up and see the view from up there and you know yeah don't do that to strangers anymore whatever she said and it's lovely like you know in the morning you know her husband comes to me and says yeah she she tells me you spoke yesterday I know your work and so it's lovely right and it's not that difficult which really is quite the issue it again I go back to your the topic of your book is it because we're afraid of rejection or is it because we're lazy or is it because we're distracted and we don't recognize that we're killing ourselves whichever way it is i think it's all that mo i think it's all that i think it's that the little pot right there that stew that people are drinking yeah and it's what it's a it's a weird way of living honestly it really is unbearable in many ways my daughter always talks about good vibes, the idea that you need to find the right people.

44:46I think her early 20s really taught her to be very, very picky and selective. And she's very international, like I am, lives everywhere in the world. And more and more, she comes back and says, oh my God, there are so many amazing people everywhere. Like it is the truth. It just is the truth. It really is. And one thing I want to name too, there's a chapter in a book called turning on the lights. Maybe it's a subchapter, but it's about this self-awareness. When we enter an elevator or we're feeling awkward and we can pick up in the room, everyone is awkward. Nobody, you know, it's this tense energy in the room.

45:25Bring your awareness inside. Where's the tension in your body? And be with that feeling in the body without the stories. It's like, oh, I'm tense because this person's looking at me weird. Oh, I don't like how this person's Like we often are literally turning how we feel onto what's going on out there. And if we actually stopped like doing this outer seeking to validate how we feel and we actually just spent a couple moments with a feeling, we can actually give a feeling an opportunity to run its natural cycle. coming in, passing through, and going out. Oftentimes, feelings don't have this inherent big symbolism, big message.

46:14Oftentimes, feelings are just here to remind us to take a deep breath. You're not in your body. You've left the present moment. You're hovering your life. You're not here and now. What if feelings were here to just call you back into your body, call you back to just be here. So in this chapter in the book, and I love the elevator example, because it's so wild. And we can all relate to what you said, Mo, because it's, it's that place where we come in, everyone's awkward, all of a sudden, we get tense, you know, and it's like, yo, you can be the one to call everybody into a state of relaxation. You know, when I'm leading a meditation, or a breathing practice or a mantra practice to a patient in a hospital, I'm not opening my eyes to see if their practice, you know, I'm doing my best effort to bring myself into a place of deep presence, because I know the presence is the most contagious thing in the world.

47:07So if I am deeply present, it's going to change the spiritual, energetic, the quality of the room, it will change the temperature of the room, it will relax people will call them back into their bodies, you know. And the elevator is a great time, great place to practice. Thanks for bringing that on, because it's like a huge thing that we all avoid. It has to be low stakes. It has to be a place where you don't fear rejection. It's not like I'm going to ever see that person again or perhaps like you said in your coffee shop in the morning, perhaps you are going to see that person every morning for the next three months of your life, might as well get to know them, might as well say something interesting.

47:55or not interesting. It's like so many choices of coffee. I think I'm going to go with something creamy today. Should I have a cappuccino? Like you're really, you're really not saying anything, but you're just having a conversation. And most of the time they'll answer you back and say, I'm sorry, what's your order? And I'm like, no, I was just thinking it's, I haven't had my coffee yet. Ha ha, whatever. Right. You know, anyway, I have a few when I was flipping through the book, Again, I will read it from cover to cover. You know that. But I just had two days for this. So what is the third truth?

48:34The third truth. Okay, very good. Very good. So it's in the chapter called Conflict is for Lovers. And people are always like, conflict is for lovers? Yeah, because conflict helps to deepen intimacy. Conflict helps us to see where our edges are, helps us to see how much emotional baggage we're still carrying, right? So the third truth is where we are able to see, okay, cool. This is your perspective and it's valid. This is my perspective and it's valid. And then there is a perspective that is beneficial for all people. Third truth is a perspective that is supportive for all, not just for me, not just for you, but for not only us either, but for all people.

49:20It's a perspective that's in the spiritual realm. It's one that has all beings in mind. And we can only arrive there by first acknowledging, okay, I see that this is your perspective. I see that this is my perspective. Our perspectives are based on our needs and our capacity to either meet them or not. And the third truth can only, we can only open the door to see the third truth through presence. He goes back to that elevator experience of like, oh, I feel really awkward in my perspective that this elevator is awful and these people are awful. That's your perspective. Is it the truth? Is it the truth?

49:58No. Like open yourself to know more. Maybe the person across from you is having a really bad day in the elevator. You know? Like we never know. So third truth is a call to opening ourselves up to see more than what meets the eye, to understand that our unseen forces working on our favor. There's so much more to life than what meets the eye. So third truth is a call to come back into your body, realize that your perspective is not the ultimate truth, you know, especially because it's not it's so self-serving. You know, our perspectives are always self-serving. There are always protective mechanisms.

50:36Now, if you do have a moment of insight where you're like, oh, wow, I'm acting this way because I'm acting in a hysterical way. This hysteria is historical from a moment that I actually never took the time to be with many years ago. I got booked and busy. It's a big mantra in the AA, Alcoholic Anonymous movement. It's historical. It's pause, breathe, relax. Okay, you're acting the way you're relating to the moment, the way you're engaging with the present moment is out of context with what's happening in front of you. You're bringing hysteria to the present moment, which is historical. It's something that you haven't looked at from the past.

51:20Yeah. So a lot of times, and I like to define well-being as our capacity to be happy when happy things happen, to be sad when sad things happen. oftentimes people aren't sad when sad things happen or aren't happy when happy things happen and that is mental health when you can actually like your your emotional response to the context of the moment matches you know there's not a discrepancy or a dysregulation or over overreaction yeah overreaction you know so the foundation of third truth is can i see that my overreaction isn't the result of this moment right now can i be with this can i tend to this while still understanding there's more to life than this there's more to this moment than what meets the eye does that make sense makes a lot of sense and i really think most of the time by the way our reactions are not just informed by our present moment if they if they were informed by at the present moment, they would be a lot more mellow most of the time.

52:29The skill of understanding that there is a third truth, however, may I say, is probably one of the most valuable skills in today's world, because sadly, we are so divided. We are so attacking each other. We are so convinced of the bullshit that was poured into our heads or the conditioning that we've been exposed to, that we think that anyone who contradicts our point of view is a fool, right? And I think this is destroying our planet in so many ways, exaggerated by social media because conflict creates views. And, you know, it's really, really sad. Thanks for naming that. I believe the biggest problem is regurgitating the past into the present.

53:16it's just a the people a lot of the people in powerful positions have not done the self-revelation work have not set with their hysterical outbursts and realize it's historical and some of these hysterical outbursts that we have in the present moment may actually be historical in a way that even predates you we know that some of the stuff goes back goes beyond beyond you and i as these versus of ourselves, you know, or it's like mommy and daddy and grandma and grandpa. In our lineages, we have the abused and the abuser. Everyone does. Every one of us in our family tree, we've got both. Have you made peace with your story?

54:00The more peace you've brought to your biography, the more peace you can bring to the present moment, you know, it's a kind of an easy equation there. However, it's a hard one because it requires you to say, to face your stuff, right? and realize, okay, wow, I've caused harm. Oh, wow, I don't like that about me. Go through that process of regret. And in Buddhism, the guilt and shame things are not a part of the vernacular. But the regret is, having regret is part of the Buddhist path because regret doesn't propel you backwards. It moves you forward. It's like, I feel awful for what I did. And I know that this isn't who I am.

54:42it shows me who I'm not, how would I become more of who I want to be? How would I become more of who I already know I am at the base of my being, you know? So it moves you forward. So the process of forgiveness, a big one too, you know, big one, big one. What was that stories, Ananda and the Buddha? Yes. Thanks for bringing that up. It's, this is one of the most exciting parts of the book. Thank you. This is one of the most exciting stories in the book, because when I read, you You know, it's interesting when you have the revelation. Okay, I need to write a book about friendship. And it's so important to have friends.

55:18And you start to do scientific. You start to talk to scientists. And you're like, oh, my God, science shows all this. And then you talk to your teacher, to your Buddhist teacher, in my case. And then they're like, Sa, you realize that Ananda asked the Buddha, how important is the spiritual path? How important is the, excuse me, how important is friendship on the spiritual path? On the spiritual path, yeah. Yeah. And then the Buddha responds, Ananda, friendship on the spiritual path is the whole path, you know? So community, the sangha, the spiritual community is the whole spiritual path. And I was like, oh, my God.

55:54Like, this is so the intersection of science and spirituality come together to offer us this vital point that we must engage. We can't do it alone. And liberation is relational. Yeah, I mean, the reason it came to my mind, interesting that you wrote about it as well, is because today I was talking to my lovely wife, who, of course, chose to read my favorite book of all time, which was recommended to me by my son in a very unusual coincidence that he told someone to tell me about it in a few weeks. and then he died before that someone told me about it. It was quite interesting that he almost was setting me up to read that book.

56:37It's called The Forty Rules of Love. And it's a beautiful book, a comparison between a modern love story and the story of Rumi and Shams, you know, and how Shams' appearance in Rumi's life really creates the mystic that we know Rumi to be. And that before that, Rumi was this very rigid scholar that wanted everything to be done in a very specific way, very, you know, very respected for his knowledge, but not very loved, if you think about it. And seeking from a practice point of view, but not from a love point of view. And Shams' presence in Rumi's life, that community, if you want, that's the entire path.

57:16really when you really think about what made Rumi it was that appearance of another soul in his life that sort of complements alters the path and I think that's why when you choose a title for the book that says spiritually we that was the first thought that came to my mind that that we here is almost the design of what we are as humans, that this individuality of I and you is a very Western concept that actually is not even comprehensible in the spiritual realm of the East, right? And it's funny when you know it so instinctively, if you've been exposed to that side, while in the West, your instinctive feeling is I'm an individual, it's all about my own freedom, my own gain, my own progress.

58:11And that somehow, you know, they call it systemic bias, that the more you optimize for that individual, the more the individual becomes individual, becomes alone, becomes one without the we, which is very, very, I love the choice of the title, spiritually we. Do you cover at all the concept of the oneness of all of us? Yes, absolutely. Every few pages, I bring into the mix our interdependence and interconnection, that there's no such thing that's self-made. And in the world of today, putting on the cover of Forbes magazine, self-made this, self-made that. there's not a single thing on this world that is self-made that it that it exists from its own side independently of causing conditions that there's not a single thing in our bodies that that the blossoms by itself you know everything is a is a is a connection game everything happens because of other things you know yeah we we've we've lost the plot to realize that hey even if you live alone and you spend a lot of time alone and you have all this money and all these resources, you may think, oh, no, I'm self-made.

59:29I'm doing it. But it's like, no, your computer was built by all these people in this other country. The money in your wallet, the credit cards, this, it's like we're so removed from how interconnected and interdependent we really are. And this separation is a symptom of that. You know, this feeling that we're separate, this feeling that we're individual is a symptom of us not being educated to our interdependence and our interconnectedness, you know? That's a very interesting way of putting it, actually. I've never thought of it this way. I mean, it would be such a useful exercise to imagine what your life would be like if you were completely alone, completely self-made.

1:00:11Like, we put you on an island somewhere and go ahead and start over. Interesting, right? Nothing exists in that realm of the individual. Nothing exists. Yeah, like in Buddhism, they say that the interdependence and interconnection is the foundation of this reality. So when we think about that nothing exists from its own side, you know, even the way we think about ourselves and we feel about ourselves, it's all relational. It's all because of this thing, because of that person, you know, everything that happens inside of us is relational. Like everything is happening. Like our organs are not working independently of others.

1:00:56Everything's working together. We are just so unaware that everything is happening with each other out there in the cosmos, in the soil. You know, like somehow us in the middle plane here, because when we look up, we know it's all connected. When we look down, we know it's all connected. But us in this plane of reality right here that's supposed to be the earth realm, we've lost the plot. So it's a call to decolonize and unsocialize and release the indoctrinated perspective of separation. So it's really, really deep in the book about how important it is that we can feel connected. And one thing I tell people, you know, 10 years of regular disciplined spiritual practice, what's gotten me one of the biggest byproducts is I feel connected.

1:01:52I feel connected to people. I feel connected to life. I feel connected to it all. You know, not all the time. It's not 24-7. But I have many moments of the day that I can actually, like, walk into a grocery store and feel a sense of connection to people. You know, it's like, ah, okay, we're doing this thing together. And it reminds me of something that's in the book too. It's like, just like me, they suffer. Just like me, they want to be happy. A way for you to be connected to people is to just realize our common humanity, that we all want two things, to not suffer and to be happy. So if you're feeling disconnected, walk around and just, you can be even driving because the person that's parked next to you at the red light, just like me, they want to be happy.

1:02:37Just like me, they suffer. everyone you come in contact with you could just remind yourself and slowly slowly with an exercise like this just like me just like me just like me it will start to dissolve the separation we'll start to dissolve the bias we'll start to dissolve this myopic view that you exist you exist from your own side independently of reality independent of the rest of us you know i think that's a beautiful way of putting it. I mean, in a nutshell, just like me is truly the key to connection versus separation. It's to see what is common between you and someone else, not what is different between you and someone else.

1:03:18To see that they will want to connect just like you want to connect to them. They won't want to reject. If they reject, it's because you're rejecting you. And I think that's really the key. Can I ask you one last question? I think, I think there is a lot to contemplate in our conversation so far. So, but you may, you make it seem, rhetorical question here, that it's a choice not to be lonely. That allowing yourself to stay in that well, in that, you know, deep, deep, dark place called loneliness is a choice. I mean, that's a very strong statement. Look, it's a little bit more nuanced than that, right?

1:04:03It's like this too. From one side, that's the reality, right? Because we know it's a biological need like water and food, but we still neglect ourselves of it. I don't know of people who are dying of thirst or hunger, unless they're sick, unless they're older, unless it's like a, you know, unless it's a predisposition, right, that they're rejecting water and food, they're maybe getting ready to go towards the end of their life. But most people who are basically healthy, won't reject themselves from food, won't neglect themselves from food and water, right? You will, you will do the thing you will eat, you will drink, even if you're drinking soda all day, but you're still drinking something.

1:04:47Maybe if you're only eating Pizza Hut and McDonald's, you're still eating something, right? But when it comes to the connection, we are so deeply afraid of being rejected that we rather stay in the muck. And because, as Jennifer Lewis says, when you stay in shit too long, it stops smelling, you know? So you become desensitized to loneliness, you know? So that's one side. Now, another side, we as people have to become better at reaching out. We need to be better at reaching out. So there's another side to this. It's when someone says, I'm not doing so well, and you missed the opportunity to be of service, you're missing an opportunity for you to unsocialize yourself from selfish tendencies.

1:05:41You're missing an opportunity for you to liberate yourself from karmic momentum of selfishness. So reaching out to people is an important practice that helps you then have the opportunity to be of support. Then it helps two people. Two sentient beings are now helped. So when you ask me, oh, is it a choice? from one side yes but from another side we have to do better as society into about reaching out to other people and it can't just be people that we like or we have to actually like engage more frequently than not yeah we so often see people we so often see people everywhere mo and they are you know we easily say is everything okay yeah yeah like it's so like reach out from a place of presence not from a place of rushing and see what happens you may actually change someone's life yeah so so simple when you really think about it it's just that you make it your target you make it your first you you make it your practice and then you make it eventually your style your lifestyle your approach to anything i love your work man i love everything that you do I think you're, I know that you have hundreds of thousands of followers and funny enough, many of them are, of course, on the, in that world of loneliness, the internet.

1:07:10So I'm really delighted that you became this and that you're spreading this. I think it would, and it should make a big difference. So as always, you have my full support. I will read the whole thing and then send you feedback offline between us. But from our conversation today, I think it's truly going to make a big difference. It's a very interesting angle to the topic of loneliness. As always, you bring spirituality into the most interesting topics. So I thank you for that. I'm so honored. Thank you. Thank you so much. Oh, my goodness. I hope we get to do something together at some point, you know, like in person.

1:07:53And I don't know, I was thinking like, what if we did a friendship summit at some point? You know so much about the science and you like it. Yeah. And you have this Middle Eastern approach. It's we can train, we can help people, you know, to do this. Friendship is our thing. Like, seriously, we know friendship. My closest friends now are, can you imagine that? I have friends that I've had for 45 years by now. And man, yeah, these are the biggest treasures you will ever have in the world when you really think about it. Yeah, let's do something. I think it's really an interesting idea. I think the topic in general is really valuable.

1:08:35I'm now working as I have been actually for a year and a half now and failing to get it done properly on what now is called Finders Keepers. It used to be called Finding Love. and a lot of what we spoke about here is also applicable to that. You know, it's quite interesting how it's the same fear of rejection. It's the same cycle of reacting to psychological discomforts that get us to make crappy decisions when it comes to love and romance. Anyway, work in progress. Always a pleasure. I know you have another appointment in eight minutes, so I'll let you go and prepare. Thank you, Mo. I'm very, very grateful for your time.

1:09:19And for all of you listening, I hope you enjoyed this and found a few gold nuggets in it like I did. It really is a choice when you really think about it. It might not be a choice to feel lonely, but it is a choice to connect. And I think what Sao is telling us is that this is truly our nature. It's just like food and drink. So don't resist it. Don't sit back. If you feel lonely, it's your entire being telling you that you need human connection. So go for it. For all the time that you spend here with me, listening to my conversations with my wonderful friends, I'm very, very grateful. You give me the opportunity to host some of the most interesting people in the world.

1:10:01And for that, I will always owe you. Keep doing this. Keep spreading the podcast to everyone you know, because the bigger it becomes, the easier it is for me to get all of the guests that you want to listen to. Whatever you do this week, I would urge you to take a bit of time to slow down. It doesn't matter how busy you are, there's always a tiny bit of time so that you can reflect, you can take some corrective actions to put yourself on a course to your happiness and well-being. I love you all for listening, and I will see you next time.