Shivani Pau - How To Stay True To Yourself While Following Your Dream

0:01I am so glad you could join us. I'm your host, Mo Gaudet This podcast is nothing more than a conversation between two good friends sharing inspiring life stories and perhaps some nuggets of wisdom along the way This is your invitation to slow down with us Welcome to Slow Mo

0:33Welcome back. My guest today is Shivani Pau. Shivani is the host of an incredibly successful global podcast called A Millennial Mind. And she is the founder and CEO and major contributor of a firm called My Performance Planner. A very interesting diversity, if you think about it, because when you meet Giovanni, you feel that there are signs of both of those very, very present in her. One is that idea of exploration and curiosity. And then there is that very disciplined, very organized person that is focused on performance and optimizing every minute of every day. The mix of two makes for a wonderful friend who is intelligent and informative and quite frequently challenging and mind-opening.

1:34So I introduce you to one of my dear friends, Shivani Pau. thank you for being here what a lovely introduction i thought i was gonna cry oh yeah we know that no it is it is um you know that part of me where i know i know i don't know why but i know people almost before the first hug if you think about it and you have that i don't know if you'll allow me to say that but you have that rebel in you really that wants to break every rule, but you don't break them when you instruct yourself not to break them. You're like very disciplined, very organized. How are you a mind reader? This is strange. I'm not.

2:17I'm just old, I think. I've seen so many people, but it is a lovely combination, I have to admit. I want to start from a millennial mind, if that's okay for you, because I wonder if there is a specific mind for a millennial? Are they different than the old people like us or the mysterious Gen Z? What an interesting question. I think there is. I think with millennials, we have been brought up in this hybrid. So, you know, in this digital age, but also not in a digital age. And what that does is allow us, I think, to explore different possibilities. So I think Gen Z now are very quick with everything you know they want everything fast they want to know your answer in one second and as millennials we're part of this slow generation of our parents where you know we grew up with like is you just calling me slow yeah but you know what i mean like their lifestyle was very slow you know it took us 20 minutes to find something on the internet because our internet was so slow compared to now when i can ask chat gbt to write these questions for us for our podcast So we're in a hybrid.

3:23And I think it's confusing as to how we navigate through this life. And that's why I think mental health for us has been such a prominent part of our lives and kind of the first generation to be speaking about it. Do you think that you often millennials will say that we gave you a horrible world to deal with? No. Do you think we gave you a good world to deal with? I never see a world as good or bad because you can't you can't create that label for the world. The world is the world. And you can view this planet as good or you can view this planet as bad. It's all within your control. So I could have come to this podcast today and could have been nervous and stressed and worried and anxious that I wasn't going to get all of my questions right.

4:06Or could I embrace this moment and thought this is going to be four hours of me learning with Mo. And it's a learning curve. And so for me, I don't see that all my parents raised me in this bad way or good way. but that has taken time because when i was younger i used to think you know they did this wrong and they did that wrong they just did what they did they just tried their best and so when people say it's a good or a bad world the world is the way in which you view it right social media people say at the moment is really bad right it's toxic it's negative it's caused all these mental health problems social media has caused this conversation between you and i correct social media has allowed you to share your message with the world.

4:47Social media has given me my job. So you tell me, is it good or bad? And we can't label these things as good or bad. And we can't label people as good as bad either. So when you think about it, there is definitely a good side to it and a bad side to it. And when you use the good side, it's not without the costs of the bad. I mean, we were chatting just before our conversation of how accessible you and I have become because of social media and you know i don't know how many you get but i get around 700 000 uh ways of people saying can i optimize your instagram yep all the time make it better make it better like change the algorithm make sure you do in line with the algorithm yeah yeah you know i respect the ones that really send me a message that says 100 and i'll give you 400 000 followers you know and you know that it's a transaction so i apologize nicely or sometimes sadly i don't even answer.

5:43But I don't like the ones that come and say, hey, Mo, I love your work. And so I respond and say, thank you very much. And then they go chat about things for a minute or two. And then eventually they say, do you want me to optimize your Instagram? Oh, come on. Be straight. Yeah, exactly. How many of those? So it's a very difficult place to navigate, I have to say your world as a millennial is the world where it became too overstimulating, I think, over engaging. You're right when you say that our world was slow. You'd be amazed if you see my dad's world. My dad's world was just, he was a genius, but his world was much slower than mine.

6:29But yours is like at the edge of annoying. How do you deal with all of that? I always feel there's so much noise and I always feel that I'm never doing enough. And this is something I'm struggling with at the moment, which is why I said it was so great we're having this conversation. On my story I wrote, I'm going to use this as a therapy session to ask you all my questions. But I do always feel that no matter what I do, it is never, ever enough. And that's because when you're growing online, and unfortunately, the downside to doing this online is you're looking at the numbers. I don't. I know you don't.

7:05And that's why I find magnificent. But I also think that you don't have to look at the numbers because you have the success. Yeah. And that may be my perception, right? And this is where I think I'm always going wrong. Because when I was doing the podcast, I always thought if I have a product, then I will be reputable. Now I have the performance planner. I think, well, only if I sell a million units will I be reputable. And I've just said to you, well, you have the success. You were the chief officer at Google. So you have the stamp and I'm always looking at what I don't have all the time. That's so interesting.

7:39All the time. And I think that it's difficult to navigate because you're always seeing everyone else doing so much. And I don't even think it's social media. I think it's this overstimulation. I have to post on LinkedIn, TikTok, YouTube and Instagram every single day to grow my podcast. Right. I say have to. It's my choice. but when I'm going on each of those platforms I'm seeing I got funded for three million pounds I got 10 million more followers than you I am hitting the TikTok algorithm and this is how you can grow and then YouTube shorts is this is how you can get more subscribers so I'm constantly overstimulated and how do I cope with that and it is really just to take a step back and think what am I doing this for and I constantly have to remind myself that question what are you doing this for Yeah, I mean, and what are you doing it for?

8:30I think it's a very good question. We'll come back to that for a second. But I actually found it is a very confusing thing because I constantly found, and some of my dear, dear close friends are masters at doing this. They'll tell you, oh, but if you do this and do that, and then hashtag this and like it's an absolute science, right? You'll get more followers. And I thought to myself, they're right, because between you and I, if my message reaches one more person and makes them happy today, it's absolutely worth the effort. But then the price I pay for that is my essence. Because if I go into those daily engagements and as a result behave in a way that is what the social media algorithm is forcing me to do, then I'm not me anymore.

9:21Exactly. And is that the right price to pay to get one more? Maybe life doesn't want me to reach that one more person today. Have you thought about it this way? I talk a lot about value over virality. And with all these platforms, there's new things you have to do. So Instagram once was a photo platform, and then it changed to video. Then it changed to reels. Now it's changed to carousels. And now it's changed to post five hashtags, post at this specific time, post seven stories, make sure you're engaging with every single message. and TikTok has then come about and you should do dancing reels and you should jump up and down and you should point to no do you no yes thank you because the thing is look there's a difference between optimizing on each platform and then there's changing who you are to fit in and conform with the narrative I am not a dancer nor am I confident at pointing at 15 different things in the sky and saying this is going to save your mental health these are five tips you can do it's just not who I am and when you watch that video of me you will feel embarrassed for me because it doesn't align with me and so one of the things that I always talk around is focus on providing value instead of chasing virality my video last year when I started the podcast I would start the podcast and I would say um welcome to the podcast be very softly spoken and you know speak very calmly that is not who i am i'm not a calm person and you know you've known that from the one minute of meeting me today right i'm very outspoken i'm very strong i want to ask you difficult questions and in the beginning i was scared because i thought no i should stay within my lane podcasting is about asking a question and getting the answer no the conversation should be around getting to the bottom of something that no one else has discussed the conversation should be around providing a value to you that you at home feel less alone in whatever situation i discuss whether that's breaking stereotypes or taboos or talking about performance or productivity whatever it is i want you at home to feel less alone and once i figured that out of i have to learn to be myself that is when my podcast setting started getting attraction because i became fearless and the one video that changed everything with me was stop asking me when i'm getting married and the reason why i think that video did well is because i was showing my expressions if you watch that video i'm saying how am i going to know i don't know instead of saying how am i meant to know i'm not sure i was being myself and that's why i always say to people is it's there's nothing wrong with optimizing yourself on these platforms posting out whatever time you think is right doing the hashtags i don't know if any of those work i post whenever randomly but i do think that there is so much more value in being you because that's what's going to make you go viral not copying someone else yeah i never really go viral anyway it's quite interesting yes you do no i don't all of your videos are reaching like a million i feel but not not when i when i produce my own content oh okay for slow with mo okay yeah so slow mo is not me at all.

12:33Slow-mo is you. So if slow-mo goes viral, it's you, it's not me. But also, it's funny because the stuff that goes viral for me on social media is basically I'm stuck in Heathrow Airport and I'm like, oh my God, that's so funny. And no wisdom whatsoever, no preparation, no nothing. And people love that. And I'm like, maybe I should stop trying, honestly. But then I have all of those very deeply, you know, analyzed concepts that define my life that I put in little squares, basically, of text. And I really, really put a lot of my entire being into analyzing those things and nobody sees them at all.

13:16It's quite interesting, actually. I mean, when you really think about it, if I take this whole idea of being out there logically, I would definitely not put a minute in it. Literally not a minute of my life because the logic basically says this is the worst ROI on the planet. As you rightly said, if I start dancing because of how horrible that will look, I think people will go viral. Should we do a TikTok today of us dancing? Yeah. I think that would go somewhere, but it wouldn't add any value to the world. Can I ask you, I have a lot of questions about what you just said, and especially how people give themselves the right to ask you, when are you going to get married?

13:56But let's first tell everyone how you got to where you are. Why did you start the podcast? Why did you start My Performance Planner? Why do those things matter to you? I was never someone in life who believed that I was clever. Oh, is that true? Yeah, I still believe that to this day. No, you're kidding me. Deep insecurity I have. No, you're kidding me. Yeah, I do. Is that parents? Yeah, I think so. What did they tell you? But also life. When you're younger, you're defined by two things. How much of a good kid you are and the grades you get in school. And you were not a good kid. I was actually.

14:27You behaved like a good kid. Exactly. And this is why I found it weird that you said this. Because I've always been somebody who has done what my parents have told me to do. I've been obedient. But I've never been happy doing it. Yeah, you're 100 % rebel. I'm not a rule breaker. You're a rebel inside in your heart. I think so. I think of course if we if we let you you're going to go around smashing things you know I swear maybe it's funny because it I have I think I've got a conflict personality and I've never understood it you know so when I was younger my parents would tell me to do something and I would do it but I would always somehow this you're raised here I was raised here so yes so I actually went to school in Hammersmith and British system very informative very okay the Pink Floyd stuff basically exactly yeah and then i moved school and in my school i was actually bullied i don't think i've ever shared this online my headmistress bullied me seriously yeah she was racist she's actually in prison at the moment because she was so racist to so many people yeah oh my god and um weirdly i've really traced this back to my childhood i don't remember it much apart from her pulling me and shoving me against the wall that's the only thing i remember but my mom used to tell me that when i went to that school i was six or seven very young and i used to be really scared and my parents used to tell me every day what's wrong with you why do you keep calling your grandparents to pick you up from school and I wouldn't say anything I was a very shy child by the way I wasn't so confident like I am now and um my mom said one day I threw up in the morning and so she said you can't go to school today and suddenly I became happy and I was happy all day with her and she said from that moment I knew that there was something going on but you never told us and so she said we never knew until one day you know we asked the school we sent me to the house of the headmistress.

16:16I still remember her perfume. And I don't remember anything weird going on at the house, by the way. But I just remember when I left the school, my parents said, you know, you told us that she was being really not nice to you. And other parents started figuring it out. But from that age, I realized that I never felt safe to tell my parents, you know, this is going on because I never wanted to trouble them. And this cascaded into my life that, you know, whenever I was feeling a deep emotion, I would never tell them. And I said this to my mom recently that you know when I was struggling in school instead of telling you mom I'm tired mom I don't understand this you know I feel like I can't concentrate I just wouldn't say anything so they would think I was naughty they would think I didn't want to learn and so what they would do is just push more tutors on me and instead of maybe understanding that maybe there is something that I have you know maybe I'm dyslexic I still to this day cannot tell my left or right I have to do this every time I still don't know if I'm dyslexic I haven't figured it out maybe I have adhd because i can't focus on one thing i have to do 15 million things who knows maybe i wasn't eating the right food because my mom would give me a chocolate sandwich with a seven up and a chocolate biscuit for lunch maybe that's why i was tired amazing mom amazing mom but you know for me and you know at school you never think that all my diet is important right but maybe that's why i was tired and i think that i would never had this idea of thinking why am i like this it was always I'm bad always that hurts my heart a deep feeling that I have I think I'm gonna cry I still have that now sometimes that hurts my heart I know it's crazy it really is because it's not just parents and it's not just school it's the entire system it's the entire idea of dyslexic is a disease or you know ADHD is a condition we have to deal with and I am so against that i am so against that i think some of the most creative humans i've ever worked with are by definition adhd if you're if you're hyper disciplined yeah then you don't create anything no and i've never got tested because they don't want to be helped labeled yeah and also yeah i don't want to have help to slow down i i'm perfectly fine i'm i'm physically would be unable to manage my podcast, my workshops, my coaching, my planner, anything.

18:36If I was given medication, if I have got it, how would I do it? I wouldn't be able to. So I think that, anyway, my point is, I never thought that I was smart because I never got good grades in school. And because of that, I think that everyone around me never thought that I was smart. And people always pointed to things on the outside and I think we have this belief that you can be either or you can either be pretty or you can be smart and all ever people congratulated me on really honestly all ever people said positively about me was you're pretty and not when I was in school this is when I'm kind of growing up was in school I wasn't I had a mustache and sideburns and glasses I have laser now so thank god everything has gone but um I really do remember when I got my GCSEs I did terribly and everyone said to me, you know, Shivani, you know, what are you going to do with your life?

19:30What are you going to become? My mom and dad would say, you know, you're never going to get anywhere if you don't study. And, you know, you need to focus on your work because, you know, you can never rely on anyone. And that was another thing. They never taught me, my parents, and I love them for this, to rely on a man. They never ever said, you'll be fine because you can marry a boy and he'll look after you. They never said that to me. They always said, you better to make sure that you stand on your own two feet. And I think that level of independence has always made me feel like I can never rely on anyone, which is a good and bad thing.

20:03It's a bad thing. It's a bad thing. It is. It's a good thing because I'm able to work hard. It's a bad thing. Okay, tell me why. It is a bad thing. Why? Because humanity never succeeded by us being reliable or smart, but individuals. The only reason humanity succeeded, the only reason anyone succeeds is because they are willing to open up and become a tribe. Yeah, you're right. If you're not a tribe, you're trying too hard. And this is the interdependence thing, right? Where you don't have to be independent. You don't have to be fully dependent. You can be interdependent. Yeah, I mean, the whole idea is if you have someone in your life that you rely on who doesn't rely on you, then you have a problem.

20:42But if we all allow each other to rely on each other, then we create a society and we create friendships and we create love stories and we create connections that are actually open to the fact that I am nothing alone. And it's, there's so much I have to say on this, but I guess the pushback to that, and I agree with you, the pushback to that is people would say, well, then you're going to depend on me. Yeah. Why is, what's wrong with that? And you won't be able to sound on your own two feet. No, no, it's not an either or, is it? For some people it is. This is my podcast. Don't ask me questions.

21:20I mean, honestly, as a friend, I will say there is a difference between I depend on you and I'm worthless without you. And you're right that it's a problem because I found it to be a problem in my relationship. Absolutely. Because whenever I feel like I'm relying on my partner, I feel that I'm not worthy. That's a very interesting view of it, right? I mean, I would not be with a woman who doesn't rely on me. What's the point? I know. Right? And you have to rely on each other. Yeah, absolutely. In a relationship, two people have to rely on each other. But I was always fear-mongered into being independent.

21:57And this is not my parents' fault. This is really not a bashing session. I don't want people to think it. No, no, no. But this is, I think, society as it is today. And this, I'm going to talk to you around this feminine, masculine energy. But, you know, it was really prominent to me that I had to be independent. and this idea now when I have to ask someone to do something for me or say can I have your help I feel uncomfortable it makes me feel bad and I've only learned now in my relationship because I have the most amazing partner who doesn't ever throw it in my face that I can rely on him and not everything has to be that you know I have to do 50 % and he has to do 50 % I will sometimes be 30 and he will sometimes be 70.

22:36And sometimes he will be 100 % of something and you will be 100 % of something else, which I think a lot of people don't understand. Which is hard because when you are someone who wants to be successful, you always see success as two things as well. I think, or a couple of things, fame, money and status. And when one of you has the money and one of you has the fame or one of you has the status and one of you has whatever, it's difficult to accept. for a lot of people. And those are the conversations I'm now having. So when you went out into the world to try and make the podcast successful, to try and make your company successful, this was in a way to prove people that you can do it.

23:21The reason why I started the podcast is, like I said, I went to school, went to university. I studied law because my parents told me I was so argumentative and I was so strong that I should be a lawyer. And I hated it. And I said to them, I don't want to do it. And they said, fine. and obviously you know my parents are going to hr go into something and it was always just do whatever you can because you're never going to be anything no way they never said that to me by the way they never said you're never going to be anything great but i didn't get good grades so how could i be the ceo of the world i couldn't because in life you believe that if you don't get good grades you're never going to be successful and how do we define success being in a six-figure job job salary i was never going to get that because what job could i go into i couldn't go into dentistry, medicine, law, any of these things.

24:04I just didn't enjoy it. I didn't get the grades. So I went into consulting. And you know, I was lazy. I was very lazy. On my mind, I have to send that to one of my consultant friends. I couldn't do this. I couldn't do that. So I went into consulting. I went into consulting. It was just easy. I went into a grad scheme. And then through that, I went into consulting. I worked at an energy company. and um i was lazy i used to sleep on the way to work sleep on the way back from work i was very lazy as a person i was never like this by the way so i know i was never somebody who would sleep until 2 a.m 2 p.m or you know whatever but i was in a relationship where that person's priorities were different from mine and i was very jealous in terms of if he wanted to go out i said i was going to go out right and i fell into this trap where i remember thinking i'm just not happy.

24:54So I ended the relationship. And at this time, I got into consulting because I was on a graduate scheme. And I was learning about Stephen Covey and Dale Carnegie. And I don't know what it was, but I really found it interesting. I was like, this is fascinating. And at the same time, I did this course at Warwick. And they were talking around leadership and productivity and performance and culture and telling me all these different conceptions. And I found it fascinating. and Jay Shetty was on the rise and Simon Sinek came into my life and all these people and I remember thinking wow I have the ability to change my life so what am I going to do with it and I just started to embrace myself in these principles and suddenly I felt alive and this was a time where my mom's cousin Reshma Sojani I'm going to introduce you you'd love her she founded Girls Who Code which is the largest organization in the world which teaches girls to code and she's oh yes of course so she used to work in the white house with him luke clinton she was really successful i follow her well she's amazing she's amazing and when i say she's my auntie she's my mom's cousin who i met one time in my life who lives in new york she was on a book tour in london and my mom said why don't you come and meet her we're all going for lunch and my response was i'm not coming to meet your stupid cousin i don't care i I want to come.

26:12Why would I do that on a Saturday? I don't know what it was. I was in London and I said, fine, I'll just go again. Every time I realized I am a rebel, I will argue and say no. And I will always do the thing my parents asked me to do. So I realized I just need to stop. I either need to stop one or the other, right? I'll always put resistance and then I'll always do it. So anyway, I went and that moment changed my life because I'd never seen an Indian woman who were so strong, who were so confident, who were so kind, and who were so intelligent. When I look around all the women in my life that were in my family, within my community, none of them went to university.

26:49They all are people who are obedient, who conform, who don't say anything. And it doesn't mean they're not amazing in their own way. My mom is the most amazing human being you'll ever meet in your life. She's the kindest, most empathetic, most understanding person I've ever met. But she, you know, has never been someone who's been able to express herself in the way she perhaps wants to. And Reshma, when I met her, was just so confident. And so I said to her, very driven. And so that evening, she had a booked dinner. And she said, why don't you come? I said, okay. So again, I went to this dinner.

27:27And again, now I'm seeing 20 women that are exactly like her. And I walked into that dinner. Bear in mind, I met her for the first time, maybe once when I was seven or eight, but for the first time we spoke. I walked in there and she said to her publisher, she's going to write a book one day. And that made me feel that someone else believed in me. Oh, yes. Without knowing. And only this has come out recently when I've understood why I was so drawn to this woman. And that evening I had a great time. Anyway, as fate has it, that summer for the first time we were going to New York as a family and I was traveling by myself before you know like you said I just want to smash plates I just want to be a hippie and live in Bali and I walked around barefoot and I had no makeup on and I was free and that was the happiest time of my life but anyway when I came back we were going on a family holiday to New York and I said to her can I can I shadow you for a day you know like I want to just learn from you and as I went into her office again she walks in and her team are like good morning you've got this you've got this and i've always been inspired by busy people you know i don't know why they just remind me of i don't know what tv you see limitless you know they're just walking in with a suit and uh she said i've got i'm doing a podcast today now at this time i was listening to tom bilyeu lewis house jay shetty stephen butler stephen butler wasn't alive then sorry wasn't alive wasn't alive no wasn't doing his podcast then but you know all of these high production podcasts and i thought that to do a podcast that is what you have to do so when she said we're doing a podcast and we went into this room with no windows it was just a meeting room and she spoke into a mic and she just talked i thought i want to do that yeah i have so much to say and she said do it i believe in you you have something within you and she said i think you can do it and again it was she doesn't even know this but it was the subtle encouragement of someone successful believing in me because everyone else around me just didn't and it wasn't their fault it's because we are taught that if you don't get a first class honors if you don't get 10a stars if you're not working in the city killing yourself till 11 o 'clock and earning 70 000 pounds you're not successful and you never will be that's what we're taught and that's what i believed and so i came back to the uk and i called everyone i knew and i said get can you ask this person if they'll be on my podcast and the other day I saw my list and it's so funny everyone now says to me do you remember when you asked me to be on your podcast and I'm like no and they're like you did and I'm like oh did I don't remember but I just asked anyone and anyone to be on my podcast and so I started it I recorded two episodes and guess what I did I didn't release them for six months because again I was not good enough yeah so in COVID when a boy said to me are you ever going to do this you always say you're going to do something you're never going to do it again i'm going to prove you wrong so i released them and the podcast did really well it got to number 10 in the mental health charts in the uk on the first day they did and my response as usual was is this a prank yeah is this a joke is this a fluke and i've noticed that throughout my journey every bit of success that i have is always justifiable based on yeah but it's because of this and you know it's because I got lucky and it's hard and anyway my point is is that I started it and I did season one I was in my corporate job I was management consultant I took a break I did season two I took a break I did season three and it really flopped and at this point I thought I just want to give up this is a nightmare and obviously my guiding angel Rashma comes to the UK and she says to me do you want to come to the Oxford Union with me because I'm doing a debate tomorrow and I said yeah of course went to Oxford Union and there was a debate for three hours and I thought I haven't wanted to go to the toilet or eat something or I haven't fallen asleep for three hours because this is engaging and what am I missing with my podcast because the content is great, but the delivery is obviously not.

31:38And so I came back and I said, I'm going to give myself one more shot. I'm going to get a studio and I'm going to make it a bit more debatey and I'm going to try. And I did. And then, do you know the Stephen Bartlett story? So again, Rashma, she really is the inspiration for everything. She messages me one day when I'm at work on a Friday. She lives in New York and she said, do you know who Stephen Bartlett is? and I was like yeah obviously you know it's got the biggest podcast in the UK and she said um he's asked me to be on it and I said no way and I said is it in LA and she goes yeah I said what are the dates and that was the first time I was going to LA since I was a child with my boyfriend because I wanted to film some podcasts and guess what the dates aligned no way out of nowhere and so I flew to LA and I said can I come with you she said sure so I went to the podcast and steven as you know is just as warm as you and we got along straight away yeah and he was asking me all these questions about my podcast and bear in mind the day before i said i bet you he's gonna let me reuse his equipment i bet you he's gonna let me film with him and i said this to my boyfriend and i at the end of the podcast i said to him i have to ask you something and he goes yes i'll invest in your business yes i'll do whatever you want you know whatever you want and I said can I please borrow for five minutes right now to do the podcast it was 40 degrees that day there was no AC in there he had just recorded two hours with Rushmore and it was six o 'clock and he said yeah let's do it and I took out my little tiny camera from my bag and I said where should I put this to get the best angle and he looked at his producer and he said let's just use the equipment here and in that moment I remember thinking I knew he was going to do that because I really believe that people want to help people.

33:33And in that moment, why would he not? Oh, many people wouldn't. But what I'm saying is that I knew from the way he wants to help people with the mission that he's doing, that he wanted to help me. He didn't have to. It wasn't an easy thing for him to do. He had to get his team to then work on all the cameras. But I really believe that he was genuine. And that's why I really believe that he would say yes. And then we recorded our podcast. I really, really admire Stephen. I have to say this. I really do too. I think he's a, when I joined Google, most people don't know that. I had a conversation with a friend of mine because I was about to retire.

34:10I had made all the money I needed to. And I asked my friend and he said, this is your chance to prove that people can make it while they're good. Okay. So the whole idea for me was, when I joined Google, was, can I be chief business officer of something that big? While I'm not political, I'm not evil, I'm not money hungry, I'm not driven for power. And I think Stephen is exactly that. Stephen is successful, but he's not successful because, and he does all of the right moves, but he's a genuinely wonderful human being. I agree. Can I just highlight to you, on the other hand, that you didn't succeed because Stephen was kind?

34:52No. I mean, on the other hand, honestly. But people love to say that. Do you remember how many times you pushed me for us to meet? I do. Yeah. You know that persistence where I get a thousand messages. I really do. I mean, and I have to admit, I'm not going to be the one listening to a millennial's mind. It's not my, I don't listen to podcasts in general, but it's not my topic. Right. And you have that way of, no, no, listen to me. I have something to tell you here. and then I look the other way and then you would shake me and go like listen I have something to tell you yeah but I think people forget that so when I recorded the podcast with him people always seem to think that was in April I only had 6 ,000 followers at this time and people seem to think that because of that I got to 100k by November and I always think wait where did that happen what happened to all those months in between and whilst you know Stephen was so kind to me And even when we came back, he wrote a whole LinkedIn post about why you should always ask.

35:55And in the Davina McCall podcast, he talked about it again. The point is, is what happened with Stephen happens with every single guest. I have to beg and chase and ask and ask a million times, will you be on my podcast? And asking that question happens in everyone's life. Whether you're asking for a promotion, whether you're six years old and asking your brother to play with you, whether you're, you know, in school and you want to make a new friend. asking the question can be applied in every area and it doesn't mean that when you get someone big that you've done something extraordinary it just means you've continued to do the same thing you've been doing for years and that has always been my message is you always have to ask the worst that someone can say is no and regardless of if he had said no or not I still went to go and watch him record right and so I never had that loss of expectation in my mind I always thought I've one either way with him obviously I was very happy to have recorded with him but I was happy to have done that and when I came back is when I really you know started pushing more and more because on the podcast he said to me if you keep improving by one percent you will be number one in five years and on this still on the days I feel like giving up I just put the clip on and then I watch it and I sometimes get teary and then I go back and I keep going again because what people don't know about the Stephen Bartlett podcast it wasn't oh wow it's Stephen Bartlett it was the number one person within your field telling you you could do it that's what people missed that's why it was so special to me because I had someone telling me who knows what they're doing within the field that you want to excel in that I believe in you so how could I ever give up so that moment changed a lot for me within me and I still am always so grateful and thankful to him and he's such a kind person on so many ways, not just with the podcast.

37:48Do you believe in you now? I still struggle with it. I'm very emotional today. This is the wrong time to do the podcast. It's a really hard years and years of conditioning is very hard to break. Very hard. And I will always doubt myself with everything that I do. Even with you. I had been messaging you for a long time, right? And I spoke about you in a clip, actually. And when you talk around grief and you said acceptance is the last stage, so you should just get there quicker, how you did with Ali. And three or four days later, someone from your team messaged me. and the first thing I thought was oh this is obvious because I did this clip about him I didn't tag I don't think I tagged you I don't think I even mentioned your name I don't know I can't remember and I thought well obviously because I've spoken about Mo this is why they've done it and I said to her oh this is so funny because I've been chasing Mo for months to come on my podcast and she said I had no idea you've been asking him and I had no idea about the clip we just like your podcast so mom wants you to come on and in that moment I thought what that's weird and every time this podcast has been moved right and when it was moved the first thing I thought of course he doesn't want to do with me of course he's realized you know I'm not good enough and that happens every time a guest cancels to this day it's always I'm not good enough they're not good enough for me I mean I'm not good enough for them they realize that I'm not good enough for them and therefore they're cancelling and I've only realized recently that is a deep deep insecurity about what I went through in my childhood about my grades and my intelligence and I've spoken about it for years but I always thought that I've overcome it and it's only recently when I'm recognizing that it's coming through in so many different avenues whether it's someone who says to me well how do you even make money from this podcast and I think oh god do you think I'm stupid and where where is this even going or you know you should try something else and before it was always other things that would trigger me and and now it's well where are you going to how are you going to do this in five years time and someone the other day said you're only successful because you're pretty because you have pretty privileged money and the only reason people listen to you because they like looking at you.

40:19And I remember thinking, this is always going to trigger me if I don't uncover what it is underneath. And so at the moment, I'm trying to figure out why it hurts me. That people tell you that? Yeah. Can I share something with you? That most people, as you know, I don't really understand why people like my voice. I really honestly don't. You have the best voice. Thank you. I mean, it is quite interesting for me because I never understood this. Okay. But now I do. I mean, now I realize that people like my voice. Okay. Right. Which in manhood is considered pretty. Do you understand that? Yeah. Right.

40:58You have a pretty voice. People say it to me too. Yeah. And I also don't think of myself as intelligent at all. I'm very diligent in the research that I do on certain topics. And I'm the most stupid human being on the planet on other topics. Right. This is so funny. I've said to millions of people, you're the smartest man I think I'll ever meet. Watch my story before I come. Thank you. You see, now I learned to say thank you. OK. But that also makes me makes me sapiosexual, which means a lot of women find me attractive for my intelligence. Yes. Right. Now, here's the interesting side. And I say this with a lot of respect for everyone.

41:33So don't please judge me on this. The interesting side is I look at my voice and my ability to show intelligence in certain topics as my duty to advance my mission. So I will use my voice as much as I can in terms of recording my audio books myself, in terms of, you know, it's still not coming true. but I'm working on that idea of a podcast or some kind of recordings that I call bedtime stories, which is to share fables of wisdom before you sleep and so on. So I use those to my advantage. And of course, to my advantage here means to advance my mission. But if I wanted to be a billionaire and make money, I would also happily use those.