The Minimalists - How To Let Go Without Losing Out On Happiness

27:34How can I make my life less confusing, less anxiety-ridden, less cluttered by creating the space for more learning, by creating the space for more contemplation? And so I guess you can say I've always been a philosophical minimalist. And if you look at the role that I play on this team, I usually defer to Ryan and Josh a lot when it comes to getting into the nuts and bolts of like, what do I do with my books? What do I do with the amount of time I spend on my smartphone? And I like to go straight to the core of things psychologically and philosophically and help people unpack their baggage there.

28:08Does that make sense? Makes a ton of sense. And it's so beautifully said, but it also inspired me to think about something because you say you've always been a minimalist and, you know, or a philosophical minimalist is an even more beautiful description, I would say. But it just got me thinking because you know how over the years we've genetically modified bananas and apples and, you know, drowned everything in fertilizers and so on. And then eventually we went back and said, oh, let's be, let's eat organic, right? When in reality, before we started to do all of this, we were all eating organic all the time.

28:47You know, and in my lifetime, you know, when you think about it in my home country where I was born in Egypt, we did not know of any of that industrialist farming until probably I was 20, maybe 25 or so. When those large bananas, you know, Egypt's bananas are smaller, they're very, very intensely sweet. And when those large bananas that are highly engineered started to show up, we were like, what is this? Is this another fruit when you think about it? Similarly, when you look at the East, and especially when you look at the lower income profile countries, people by definition are not cluttering their lives with things they don't need.

29:26It seems to be quite a consumerist thing. Of course, I have to say, unfortunately, in the US, that consumerism is being exported to the world in a very interesting way because of corporate quarterly cycles and the need for profit and the need for growth. I think you mentioned that, Ryan, in the documentary, that the idea that we're constantly chasing, we're constantly being told to buy things. It's not because that's what we want. It's because that we, that's what we're told to want. Isn't it? I mean, it's funny that we go full circle and go back and say, let's go organic or let's go minimalist when that's almost the nature of how we should live.

30:05Yeah. I mean, it's, it's interesting because I mean, yeah, that's a great way to look at minimalism. It's a way to kind of help us get back to our roots, to get back to the nature. I mean, I think when you, when you bring up these poor communities in the world, yeah, I mean, by, by definition of things, yes, they're not cluttering their lives, but aren't their lives cluttered with so many other things though, with cell phones and, and, and advertisement in this wanting. Yeah. So it's, it's interesting. I mean, even if uh you know take the take the things out of it minimalism is this philosophy that kind of helps us get back to those those roots to get back to that nature yeah i mean we see in here at least here in the united states we see five to ten thousand advertisements a day no way oh my god yeah and and that is it's uh it's it programs us and like that those ideas they seed in us and they create these desires that we never would have had otherwise.

31:07But yeah, it is fascinating how I've never looked at it that way, but minimalism certainly can be a tool that people can use to get back to that natural state in a way. Yeah. So because I spend more time working with people who economically would be categorized as poor than I do working with people who maybe have too many luxury goods. Here's an aspect of minimalism that I think the philosophical side can really contribute to. So I'm just going to give you one example. One of my inner city students, we were in class in a small group and we're talking about dreams. And this is a young black man, about 17 years old, and he states what his dream is.

31:48And his dream is to be a mechanical engineer. And I thought that was an interesting answer. And I'm thinking, oh, okay, this should be pretty easy to workshop because usually students might say something like a rapper or an actor. And it's kind of hard, right? Because you don't want to contradict their ambition, but there's no clear, easy path for it. And so you got to be really delicate and nuanced with how you talk about it with them. But he says, mechanical engineer, I'm thinking, oh, this should be pretty easy. And so I ask him, what's the hard part? And he says, the hard part is where I'm from.

32:20And I say, well, what do you mean? And he expresses to me a firm conviction that the number one reason he doesn't believe he can become a mechanical engineer is because of the neighborhood he has grown up in and that he still lives in and because of the life of his father, who is now in jail because of a life of crime. And so here is someone that's having a really difficult time imagining him ever making it out of the hood and ever being able to fulfill his dream because he has a story going on that says, I can never do what my father did not achieve. I am destined for a life in jail like my dad.

32:58I can never be bigger and better than the neighborhood I grew up in. Now, that story is not his fault. That's a story that has been imposed upon him by the reality of his harsh circumstances, by cultural elements and so on. And in addition to that, there are aspects of that story that have some very strong sociological and economic arguments, right? That give him every reason to believe that. But when you're talking to someone like that, you don't have the luxury to sit back with a glass of wine and just say something that sounds virtuous. You've got to speak into this young man's life in a way that helps him unpack that baggage so that he can be able to create some options for himself without blaming himself for the challenging circumstances that he's in.

33:49And so we begin to have a conversation about what it means to have parents that live a certain way and what it does and does not say about you. We begin to have conversations about what it does and does not mean to grow up in a certain neighborhood. And we have to approach this sympathetically, understanding the things that are beyond his control, but also in a way that encourages him to believe in his possibilities, pointing him to the resources that he didn't know about that his mentors never showed him because he doesn't have the mentors, right? And so this is just one example of how we can have baggage in the form of stories, in the form of self-defeating beliefs, in the form of self-condemnation, in the form of having people who told us you aren't anything and you'll never be anything.

34:31And that can be as powerful as the baggage that comes from having too many things. It's so beautifully said, Ryan. Oh, yeah. I mean, I don't know how else I could say that any more beautifully than TK just said it. But I totally agree with what he's saying here. Yeah. So, Ryan, when you were when you were speaking, you said 10 ,000 ads a day in the documentary. You said the average American household has 300 ,000 items in it. I fell off my seat, but then I actually looked around me. I mean, if you count a pen or a Sharpie as an item, I opened my drawer and there are six of them. And then you start to count those things and there are quite a few of them.

35:17But just as TK said, there are stories and beliefs that make us do that, right? Not only are we bombarded with those stories all the time in the form of advertising, Coca-Cola is going to make you happier. That phone is going to make you more better within society. It's going to get you closer to your loved ones, da, da, da, da, da, da. But there are also stories within us that things or more, let's not call it things only, more in general is going to make me more, bigger, better, happier. How do you combat that? Yeah, I know. You would think with all that stuff, we would be beside ourselves with joy, huh?

35:58having more than 300 ,000 items in our home. Isn't that an interesting observation? Yeah. I mean, because from the outside looking in, especially like I grew up in a very poor household and government assistance was always a thing in our house. And I thought that having all those things would bring me happiness. And I thought money was this thing that created so much discontent in our lives. And when I realized as I got older and started to make more money. And as you realize this too, it's like you can make all the money in the world, but a bad decision is still a bad decision. It doesn't matter how much money you have.

36:37And I definitely had to learn that the hard way. But when it comes to those 300 ,000 items, I think these physical items, whether it's a third screwdriver or whether it's a second Lexus or whatever it is, these are things that seem like shortcuts to feeling fulfilled. And the problematic thing with that is that it works sometimes, barely, just for a little bit. But when I was buying a new fancy new car every couple of years, that first couple of months, it was great. And I'm feeling good. I got a nice car and I'm enjoying my ride. But guess what? that third car payment, fourth car payment, fifth car payment, like it starts adding up and it starts to, uh, it starts to weigh on us.

37:26And then I would repeat the cycle. Okay. Well now I got to go buy something else. And I think that intellectually, we know that these things aren't going to make us happy. We know that money isn't going to buy happiness, but we all just want to try it out just to make sure that, you know, that's not the answer. And, uh, yeah, I mean, when it comes to those 300 ,000 items in our home, I would posit that that's the easy thing to do. Meaning the easy thing to do is to hold on to all these things, especially when we give a little bit of our money for these things, because now it's worth something to us.

37:58So we can't let that go because we paid money for that. I'll tell you one of my favorite rules that Josh and I came up with, we've got a rule book. It's 16 rules for living with less. And one of them is called the spontaneous combustion rule. And I love this rule because like you could take any item in your house, any of those 300 ,000 items, you could pick one up and you can look at like this coffee mug, for example. And I could say, all right, if this coffee mug, if it's spontaneously combusted, like how would I feel about this? Would I go replace this or would I just kind of let it go and not worry about it?

38:33Now, the answer to this is I think we have like four mugs in this studio, maybe six. So we'd probably go replace it because we don't have very many. But that litmus test can really help us get clear on which of those 300 ,000 items are actually adding value to our lives. Because if you pick up that third screwdriver, I mean, Mo, if you asked yourself, if that third screwdriver spontaneously combusted, I mean, what would you do? Would you run out and replace it? I didn't even notice. Exactly. Exactly. It's quite interesting. But once again, I mean, I keep getting bombarded with people telling me, oh, but look at this one.

39:10This has a 80 watt motor and, you know, the battery will last two and a half minutes longer. And then, you know, and you have, I love coffee, for example. And yes, I'm still as much as I am a minimalist. I still every now and then look at those coffee machines as if I'm looking at a porn site and say, I will make the best coffee in the world with that manual machine that I can control the pressure with my own arm when I'm doing. It's like, what are you talking about it just it's crazy really yeah i mean there there may be a benefit to a nicer coffee machine i mean i think about how i make coffee every morning it's it's like it's a little pour over it's a filter it's coffee grounds it's a little craft you should be ashamed of yourself you should be ashamed of yourself i'm telling you but that's that's how that's how i really enjoy my coffee and like when it comes to espresso i can appreciate a good espresso but like for me it's that filter coffee that I really, really enjoy.

40:06So if I went out and got the nicest espresso machine out there, I might be able to make a really good espresso, but I still prefer that filter coffee. And I think the problem is we hear these stories. We hear someone say, oh, this makes the best coffee ever. And we tell ourselves that all of a sudden, we're not enough. We're not going to be happy unless we have the best coffee ever. And there's this fetish that we have with perfection. We want the perfect version of something. And it's interesting because when you look at the word perfection, like the Latin root, perficere, it means to be fully complete.

40:40It has nothing to do with the ideal version of something. And for me, when I think about perfection, this is the context that I try and hold. It's not a matter of, is there going to be something bigger and better and higher quality out there? Because the answer is yes, of course, or always is. And as soon as you find the best one, guess what? They're going to invent the next best one so they can get you to buy another copy of it. So instead of looking at the perfect version, the perfect coffee, my question is, is this complete? Is this something that satisfies my coffee desire? And the answer is yes.

41:18Like with that little$20 setup that I have with the filter, and I'm not recommending this for everyone. I'm just saying for me, I look at that, I'm like, it's a complete cup of coffee. It tastes good. I get my caffeine. I'm not embarrassed if I have to make a cup of coffee for a friend or a family member. It's still a very perfectly fine cup of coffee. But yeah, I think this philosophy has helped me come to terms with things like that. Instead of me talking myself into buying the next biggest thing, it really helps me. If anything, it helps me talk myself out of it. Damn, I hate it when you convince me of stuff.

41:53I hate it when you do it. Oh, I'm not trying to convince you. I'm sorry. I'm not thinking of that coffee machine. Thinking of that coffee machine. He's right. He is right. Seriously. TK, you were going to say? I was just going to say, you know, you could think about minimalism as the philosophy of mindfulness applied to the material side of life. Because when you step back and you think about it, it's our instincts that make us human, but it's our intentionality that makes us virtuous. What is it that gives us that capacity to be creative and to create civilization? It's that ability to rise above animalistic impulse.

42:35It's that ability to rise above the instincts and to make decisions from a place of purposefulness. It's that ability to say, oh, I feel like punching that guy in the face, but I'm going to choose to respond in a different way. I feel like giving up. I feel like sleeping all day. I feel like eating solely for fun without any regard for what is healthy, but I'm going to choose something that incorporates the best elements of what feels good, but that takes me towards a future that I value in a way that I might not be able to feel right now. And one of the challenges with the kinds of things that we're talking about right now is that it's so much easier to be impulsive, right?

43:19It's so much easier to make our decisions based on what looks good, sounds good, and feels good in the now moment. And advertisers know this and they appeal to that side of us. And so one of the things I try to remind myself of is what I call the casino technique, which is there's nothing wrong with going into a casino, but you got to remember what you're getting into. When you go into a casino, there are no windows because they don't want you looking outside and thinking about the outside world. There are flashing lights. There's bright music, beautiful people, free alcohol, and all the entertainment in the world.

43:58Why? Because everything that's happening in the casino is designed to keep you in the casino so that you can keep gambling all of your money, right? And so in order to play the casino game effectively, you have to decide what it's going to be before you walk in. Nothing wrong with going into the casino, but you got to say, all right, what's my number? Because I know when I get inside, I'm going to feel like I got the hot hand, right? Because I'm as subject to that illusion as anybody else. What am I comfortable losing? $20? $200? You name it. You know where you're at financially. No right or wrong about it.

44:29What can you afford? And that's the price of fun. You go into the casino and when you hit that number, you stop and you get out and that's just the ticket price that you paid for a fun time. And minimalism is about having that attitude with your purchases. Nothing wrong with upgrading your espresso maker. Nothing wrong with getting a new car. but are you getting it because you were minding your own business, living your life, and then somebody shoved something in front of your eyes and they did a little dance and you were captured by the siren song of the latest commercial promising you happiness?

45:04Or did you deliberately look in that direction because you made the decision to create a certain kind of life and then you went after it and made the proper choices? That's the difference there. Wisdom, absolute wisdom. Do you think it's only because we're chasing happiness or also because we're sort of, I mean, Ryan said it was perfect, comes from being complete. And I think advertising is constantly telling us that we're not enough. Is there a bit of that in it as well? Yeah, I mean, you know, happiness is like, I don't know, it's like, it's a drug in a lot of ways. Like it's something that I spent most of my life chasing.

45:46and arguably I would get it every once in a while, but it's so ephemeral. It's so fleeting that once you have a taste of it and it's gone, you just, again, like a drug, you just want more and more of it. And there's nothing wrong with happiness. Chasing the happiness, that is where it can become detrimental and can really create the opposite of happiness. I mean, for me now, it's not about trying to live at this constant peak state of happiness. It's about really figuring out what my priorities are. And I talked about that a little bit earlier. But the thing is, is when our short-term actions, when they align with those priorities, when they align with our long-term values, when they align with our beliefs, then you know we can start to shift from that chase of happiness to this state of living a meaningful life and the beautiful part of living a meaningful life is happiness is this byproduct that will happen but when happiness is the goal it's almost like the closer we get the the further it is out of reach so yeah happiness is a very i mean we could probably just do a whole podcast on happiness and what that means.

47:07I do that all the time. It's my whole life, basically. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But my definition differs slightly, Ryan. So I define that fleeting joy more around dopamine, around the reward hormone, around being rewarded by something fun, possessions, pleasure, and so on. Happiness itself is a lot more about this calm and peaceful contentment, to be okay with what you have rather than seek more to give you that rush. And in biology, that feeling comes with serotonin. It basically is more of a calmer. It's a hormone that's telling you, hey, by the way, life is great as it is. It's okay as it is. You really don't need another coffee machine, Mo, to feel happier, right?

47:52It's actually quite an interesting, I mean, I support what you're saying completely. It's that fleeting bit that comes from dopamine, comes from I'm buying a new car and then I feel a little bit rewarded. And then two months later, I start to go like, I need another one to feel rewarded. You know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think what you're talking about, and I think where our thoughts are intersecting here is really when it comes down to that feeling of excitement. Like that's when we get that feeling, that dopamine hits us, we get that feeling of excitement. And I think that we confuse happiness with excitement.

48:26And yeah, I mean, we could sit here and talk about the definition of happiness. I agree like contentment is probably a much more mild version of happiness. But isn't it interesting how even contentment for me can almost be demotivating? Because if I'm too content, I don't want to ride that edge of creativity, that spark of learning something new. So for me, I mean, even sometimes contentment can be almost a paralyzing thing. Yeah, happiness is really fascinating. What do you think about happiness, TK? So I think the problem of consumerism to me is more about our relationship to fear rather than happiness in isolation from that.

49:11So if you think about how we're biologically hardwired, for instance, we are incentivized for the sake of our own survival to pay more attention to things that are potentially negative. right? So if you hear that rustle in the bushes, you are more likely to survive if you infer the probability of a tiger or some kind of danger than if you're just casual and cool about everything. And marketers know this and they prey on this. They don't create these instincts. They leverage these instincts. So if I'm writing copy, for instance, and I want to write an article about marriage, I can title it in two ways.

49:46And you tell me which one people are more likely to click on. The first article is seven ways to make your spouse happier. Oh, that's nice and positive. But if we're keeping it real, that's boring. Nobody's going to read that article. Seven reasons your spouse is probably cheating on you right now. Everybody's clicking on that, right? Because there's something about us that responds that, uh-oh, seven mistakes you're making that you don't even know you're making. Compare that to seven habits of successful people. You're not reading that article, man. but you're clicking on that other one. And we see this playing out every day on social media.

50:23What are we clicking on? What's grabbing our attention? And so what marketers are really good at doing is leveraging that instinct by saying, hey, you don't want to end up being like this guy over here, do you? You don't want to end up feeling lonely and being a loser, do you? Hey, no problem. Buy this product right here and you'll be good. And they're very smart to not do it explicitly because it's much more powerful to make something look stupid than it is to prove that it actually is stupid. It's much more powerful to make something look cool than to prove that it actually is cool. Because the moment you try to prove something, you're engaging people logically and the defenses are up.

51:05They're going to analyze it. But when you appeal to the imagination and you simply show them their life as it is now and you make it look stupid, they'll be afraid of it. And so I think we're more likely to embrace stories of fear than stories of faith. And that plays a big role in our patterns of consumption. Here's one other thing as well. I don't think it's merely the case that advertisers create a sense of inadequacy. Certainly they appeal to that. But one thing about stories is that it has to resonate with something going on inside of you in order for it to really work, right? You can't tell a story that's just too unbelievable for people.

51:47It's got to connect to something, some real fear, some real concern. And I think most of us simply have not been taught that we're lovable as we are, that we're worthy as we are. And look, Mo, I'm telling you right now, please don't go quote me on social media when I say this because they will eat me alive for daring to say something as obvious and cheesy and inspirational as you are lovable right now. You are worthy right now because everybody's going to say, nobody needs to know that. That's obvious. Any six-year-old can know that. And then I say, go talk to the six-year-olds, man. They get it early.

52:25They get a hold of the idea that they are unworthy very early. And for most of us, we make our decisions about how we're going to defend ourselves against this cold world. Given the fact of our unworthiness, we make those decisions very early on. And so when they tell us, hey, you're never going to be anything, they're appealing to these fears that we embraced a long time ago. That is so, but it's almost unethical what you're saying. I mean, when you really think about it, to constantly torment people with silliness, really, for people to buy whatever your product is in a selfish way that makes you your quarter.

53:07But that's basically it. It's actually quite a, I mean, I think anyone with any wisdom at all should become very aware and very alert to all of this. my wonderful ex-wife used to always say, if someone's advertising something to me, that basically means it's not good enough without the advertising for me to buy it. Okay. So she would become very suspicious of things that are heavily advertised to her on daily basis. I want to close with a couple of quick questions. I actually think this is a very, very valuable conversation and I would encourage my listeners to go listen to it again and to listen to the rest of your work.

53:49Look at the three of us. We're three dudes in three black t-shirts, okay? Where I think when it comes to fear, especially if you look at me, I'm an older dude, so I need to do better to appeal for the opposite sex and to have my wonderful girlfriend still feel proud of me and so on. That's simplicity. Hey, you look good to me, Mo. You look good. It's not gonna work, you think? Why is it that some of us are so comfortable? I basically feel this is amazing. And why are others so desperate to wear brands, labels, almost as if they are owned by Cartier or Louis Vuitton or whatever? Why? Why does that happen to people?

54:34I think it's easier to pick a brand to represent you than it is for you to represent yourself. and I know for me I thought bombshell right there say that yeah it's easier to pick a brand to represent you than it is to represent yourself I love that yeah and it's like I wear what I wear because you know black is slimming and like this is what I feel good at yes I agree I mean it's not about making a statement it's not about it's not like my sister she was like is this commentary military on like minimalism and you're a blank canvas. And I'm like, I never looked at it that way. I'm like, but I guess it could be, but it's funny how people read into, you know, certain things.

55:17But for me, it has, you know, there is nothing deeper than the fact that like, I put on a black t-shirt, I look good in it and I feel good in it. And, um, it's, it's a lot, it's a lot less decisions that I have to make each day if I get up and I know exactly what I'm going to wear. But if there's one message that we really try to get out there and for people to really understand is it's that whole love people and use things because the opposite never works. And really what that means is that you are complete. And TK was alluding to it earlier. You are complete at who you are in an empty room. And from there, you get to decide what you want to bring into your life to, to maybe add a little bit of additional joy.

56:06But when it comes to my clothing, like I don't, it doesn't matter what I wear. Like I really like who I am and, uh, the clothes that I wear doesn't represent who I am as a person. It just, you know, makes me look slimming when I wear black. So, so yeah. Um, unfortunately I think that we, we look towards these external things. We feel incomplete. We feel like we're not enough. And then we tell ourselves, oh, if we get that certain logo, if we spend that certain amount on a handbag or whatever it is, well, that's going to make us feel complete. And it's the exact opposite. Never does. Never really does.

56:40Well, I will have to say this has been wonderful. I'm a little fanboy cheering in the crowds. I really appreciate the change that you have done to my life. And I really hope that some of that wonderful joy, by the way, I also love how much friendship is always there in your show and how you play off each other. And it's just a wonderful expression of humans in the simplest form of connection, really enjoying life without all of the extra stuff. TK, I have to admit, I love you joining. You bring so much value and so much wisdom and you're so well-spoken, so well-thought and everything that you share.

57:23I really appreciate you guys and i i love josh so give him my regards and a big hug from a big fan and i really am very grateful that you joined me today oh mo thank you so much and you're right tk is very wise he's got all he's got all the good words stop it he is wise i was i was going to call him yoda halfway through and then i said yeah i can see mo behave don't say that yeah yeah we call him yoda i can get behind I'm not ready yet, man. Hopefully, give me another 30 years and let me meditate a little bit more and we'll see where I'm at. Exactly, and a lightsaber. So, you know, just train a little bit with that.

58:02And everyone listening, I really, really appreciate that you give me the chance to meet my heroes. When you listen to this podcast, you get me to spend time with people that really matter to me, to have wonderful conversations. this one is one that is more simple in its appearance than the actual depths that is in it so I would urge you to go back and listen to those words again I urge you to go to the minimalist podcast incredibly valuable I urge you to watch the documentary to buy the books these guys are on a mission to make a difference and they're very very good at making a difference whatever it is that you're doing in your life, do it with purpose, do it with intention.

58:46Try to do the things that bring you joy. Try to give yourself the time instead of worrying about the money. Because as I always say in this podcast, time is the only asset that you will run out of sooner or later. Doesn't matter how busy you are this week, find a tiny bit of time to slow down and reconsider. I love you all for listening and I will see you next time.