What’s the Snark on Lena Dunham?

15:06Sophie Ross:Oh my god, no, I swear.

15:08Christy Noel:I just, I went down the document and saw the photo of her in the bikini brushing her teeth in the fountain. That's so gross and unsanitary. Biohazard.

15:20Sophie Ross:It's gross that she's brushing her teeth in the fountain. Not that she looks gross. Right, correct, correct. Yeah, biohazard. But this caused a lot of uproar around her body. Again, this has been a major theme throughout her career. People are obsessed with her body. Like we said, she is not a stick figure. It's the fact that she is not a conventionally thin person, but she has the audacity to disrobe and show it in videos like, oh my God, the audacity. And she eventually decided to remove the video because there were so many comments about, she said, about how fat I was or how not fat I was. I didn't want you to Google me.

15:56Sophie Ross:And the first thing you see is a debate about whether my breasts are misshapen. Again, this is a theme throughout her career. In 2009, she started a comedy web series called Delusional Downtown Diaries, a kind of low budget satire about the New York City art scene. She actually got a lot of attention for this and took inspiration for girls from this web series. And in 2010, Lena's first feature film premiered, the aforementioned Tiny Furniture. It's a semi-autobiographical movie starring herself and her mom as her mom in the movie, as well as Jemima Kirk, her classmate, and Alex Karpovsky, who plays Ray in Girls.

16:36Sophie Ross:It was actually, like I said, filmed in her own family's Tribeca Loft. Another reason why having resources is important for starting a career in the entertainment industry. And the success of Tiny Furniture earned Lena Dunham a blind script deal at HBO, basically trusting her to write whatever she wanted for the network. They set her up with veteran showrunner Jenny Connor, who became her longtime creative partner until they're falling out. Judd Apatow was also a huge fan of Tiny Furniture and reached out to Lena because of it. Let's take a quick ad break to talk about Lolo blankets. One thing about me is that I'm literally always cold, which means I always need to be wrapped in a blanket when I'm home, day or night, rain or shine, July or January, and as soon as I first got my hands on one of the famous Lolo blankets, I was hooked.

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18:34Christy Noel:but as someone who has never watched Sex and the City, and I know you guys roast me, please, I deserve it. How would you describe, like, obviously both shows are set in New York City for girls, for friends. Sex in the City is based upon, like, dating, relationships, female friendships, the audacity that men have. What is girls? What's their shtick?

18:59Sophie Ross:So Lena actually has a good quote on this. She says, Gossip Girl was teens duking it out on the Upper East Side, and Sex in the City was women who had figured out work and friends now want to nail romance and family life. There was this hole in between space that hadn't really been addressed. So it's supposed to be about the millennial experience, like girls figuring it out. And back in 2012, the economy and the job market were not great. I mean, when are they great? Let's be honest. But it was - When has it ever been great? Exactly. It was this moment in time. And it seems like for a lot of us, it captured that moment perfectly.

19:37Sophie Ross:And like I said, as a massive girl, super fan throughout its entire run, I feel particularly qualified to speak on it and why it was such a massive success. And I feel like it really just captured this millennial zeitgeist in the early 2010s. It was also like right when I started interning in New York city, the summer of 2012 was like my first internship in New York. I remember them seeing them filming girls in Greenwich village and freaking out. I was stalking the set. I was so obsessed. So it stars Lena herself, along with Jemima Kirk, like we said, Joja Mamet. I never know how to pronounce the actress who plays Shoshana.

20:17Sophie Ross:Alison Williams, daughter of disgraced news anchor Brian Williams. The Brian Williams thing is like my Roman empire. Do you remember what happened with him? No, that's not ringing a bell for me. He lied. He like embellished a story about how he was like, on a helicopter during the Iraq war and made it seem like he was almost shot and his helicopter was shot down. And then it came out that none of that was true.

20:44Christy Noel:Oh my God.

20:45Sophie Ross:So anyway, yeah. Brian Williams is tangentially related to girls as well as Adam driver's breakout role. Wow. Yeah. She like basically discovered Adam driver. Like he was so perfect for this role and so good in it. I mean, everyone, I think everyone was really good, honestly. Audrey Gelman also played a, she had like a brief guest appearance and she is, you know who Audrey Gelman is? No. She's one of Lena's childhood friends and she is the very controversial founder of The Wing. If you remember The Wing. Wait, what's The Wing? The Wing was that like women's only working space that kind of went out of business during COVID, but it had some racism scandals.

21:29Sophie Ross:And remember, it was the millennial pink. You could go there with your laptop and you could touch up. And do you not remember this? No. Is this like an East Coast thing? Maybe it was just East Coast. I thought they had locations in LA. They probably did. And I just didn't know. Yeah. Let's you guys. I wrote this down when I was like working on these notes, I was like, we need an Audrey Gelman slash The Wing episode on Patreon because there is so much lore. Yes, please.

21:58Christy Noel:This sounds very enticing to hear about. Yeah,

22:00Sophie Ross:there's a lot of lore. It's just like one of those crazy female founder stories that has really captured my heart, like Elizabeth Holmes and the like. Anyway. Oh, yeah. And also, thank you, Jordan, for flagging this. Lena has stated that Audrey is actually the inspiration for the girl's character, Marnie. That's not a compliment. It's not not a compliment at all. If you watch Girls, you'll understand. So Girls followed the 20 something group of girls navigating life and love in New York City. It was partially inspired by Lena's real life, partially inspired by sex in the city. I remember watching this premiere live and it genuinely was groundbreaking to see someone who was not your average TV star or movie star physically get buck naked on TV, like full frontal, it was almost shocking, even though it shouldn't have been.

22:57Sophie Ross:And along with Adam Driver, honestly, who at the time, and I think to this day is still not seen as conventionally attractive either. So it definitely felt groundbreaking at the time, even though it shouldn't have,

23:09Christy Noel:But like it did feel like it was like breaking down barriers. Yeah. I think I remember when people would think about girls, they would think about shock value is not really the right word to say, but maybe it is. Like I just feel like I remember people hating on the amount of nudity that was on girls. And then I think of shows like Euphoria that came on over the last five years where all you're fucking seeing is people that are supposed to be quote unquote underage and naked and having sex and no one blinks an eye.

23:37Sophie Ross:Yeah, exactly. And so she did, like you said, get a lot of backlash for being naked a lot on the show. And a lot of people called the nudity and sex scenes gratuitous. But to your point, would they be saying that if she was conventionally attractive or hot? I doubt it. But that's why her body is such a hot topic of conversation always throughout her career. So another and there's a lot of criticism when it comes to girls. And a lot of it is very fair. So another criticism of the show was that it lacked diversity. all four leads and pretty much all of the supporting actors were white. And the fact that it takes place in a city as diverse as New York City, this was a big, I think, mishap on her part.

24:17Sophie Ross:People of color were thrown in and seemed to be tokenized before they were ultimately written off. So after the initial first season, she would start throwing in characters that were people of color, like Donald Glover played a black Republican, which also drew controversy. She told NPR in 2012, I am a half Jew, half wasp, and I wrote two Jews and two wasps. Something I wanted to avoid was tokenism in casting. If I had one of the four girls, if for example, she was African-American, I feel like not that the experience of an African-American girl and a white girl are drastically different, but there has to be specificity to that experience that I wasn't able to speak to.

24:55Sophie Ross:So she basically is saying, I wrote it just based on my own life experience. Which is very fair, I think. It's fair. It's fair. It's also like, I think that she really wanted to create a diverse cast. She could have brought in consultants, people to help with writing those characters, but she didn't. So that's on her. But another criticism was that it really focused on these very privileged millennials and was a very insular portrait of the city in millennial life, even though it was kind of marketed as this deep, unflinching look at millennials, even though they were all very, very, very privileged.

25:34Christy Noel:They live in like nice apartments, too.

25:37Sophie Ross:Yeah, for the most part. And it's not like they were all like wealthy, like upper east side gossip girl characters. It did seem like kind of like your realistic millennial white girl who had parents that could help with rent, you know, even though famously in the first episode, Hannah Horvath is Lena's character. Hannah's parents cut her off. But very fair criticism of the show. She also garnered criticism for casting her own friends and fellow Nepo babies in the lead roles. Like we said, she was friends with Jemima Kirk, who, by the way, Jemima Kirk's sister is married to Penn Badgley. Oh, so random.

26:16Sophie Ross:Yeah. And Alison Williams and Audrey Gelman, her childhood friend. So one thing about girls also is that pretty much all of the lead characters are unlikable and problematic in different ways. And this is such a talking point around the show that there's really not someone you're rooting for necessarily. But I feel like that's kind of the point. They're shallow, selfish, privileged young people who fuck up all the time and have zero self-awareness. But that's something you see a lot where it's like, oh my God, I hate everyone. And it's like, well, I feel like that's kind of the point of the show.

26:48Sophie Ross:And despite the controversy surrounding it, it was critically acclaimed, especially during the early seasons, the first three seasons, especially. It was an award show darling. Lena was nominated for several Emmys in Golden Globes and acting, writing, and directing. Girls itself was nominated for 19 Emmys during its run and won two. In February 2013, Lena became the first woman to win a Director's Guild of America Award for Outstanding Director in a Comedy Series. While I agree with a lot of the criticism, like we just talked about. I do think the show was deserving of all of its awards and success.

27:27Sophie Ross:I think it's brilliant. I think it's hilarious. It's just, it's so crazy to see this recent resurgence with Gen Z appreciating it. I just think it's a very, very well-written show. And although Lena Dunham has worked on a lot of other projects that have not garnered as much critical praise. In fact, some of them have been panned. And I think that Girl cements her as one of the greats when it comes to TV writing.

27:54Christy Noel:Not going to lie, the way that you're describing the show, it's something I definitely want to watch. I may just now binge this show.

28:00Sophie Ross:Oh my God, I'm so excited for you to watch it. Please, wait, can you please and we can, I don't know, do like a watch party or something.

28:08Christy Noel:Absolutely. No, this is definitely speaking to my soul. And yeah, I'm going to do it. Oh my God, I'm so excited.

28:15Sophie Ross:The show ultimately ran for six seasons and concluded in April 2017. From 2015 to 2018, Lena Dunham ran, I don't know why I keep saying her full name. I'm like LD Lena Dunham. I'm just looking at my notes. Lena ran a feminist newsletter called Lenny Letter. I actually subscribed, but it shut down after not being able to grow subscribers or momentum very quickly. In 2018, Lena and Jenny Connor released another show called Camping starring Jennifer Garner. Do you remember the show on HBO?

28:46Christy Noel:No, but as I was reading a little bit ahead, I was like, damn, Jennifer Garner, Lena Dunham, 2018. The fact that it was panned really quickly is shocking.

28:55Sophie Ross:It did not get good reviews at all. It received almost universally negative reviews. I actually tried watching it and could not get through the second episode. Lena signed a book deal in 2015 to write a series of essays called Not That Kind of Girl, A Young Woman Tells You What She's Learned. and Christy and I have both read that book. It was published in 2014 and became a New York Times bestseller. It was a commercial success despite mixed reviews. I genuinely remember enjoying it. Like I said, it's been a while, so I can't like fully remember that much from it, but I thought it was a fun book to read.

29:30Sophie Ross:It was like a quick, I remember I read it on vacation. The biggest story to come out of this book is a controversy that follows Lena to this day. And I know that we briefly touched on this during our Patreon episode about our hot takes. To recap, Lena mentions in the book that she used to bribe her younger sibling, Cyrus, with candy in exchange for kisses. And she refers to herself in jest as a sexual predator. And she talks about, quote unquote, exploring Cyrus's genitals when Lena was seven and Cyrus was around one. and she talks about just being curious and like putting rocks in Cyrus's genitals.

30:13Sophie Ross:I remember this. Yeah. And obviously very weird and disturbing. So a lot of critics liken this to sexual abuse, but the majority of sexual abuse experts and developmental psychologists who who spoke on and spoken on this, said this was simple childhood curiosity, not abuse. She apologized for referring to herself as a sexual predator and was like, it was a joke. I know that it takes away the gravity of what sexual predators do and sexual abuse, but she was like, this was kind of poking fun at myself as a child. And she also shared that everything she wrote in the book about Cyrus was with Cyrus's consent.

31:01Christy Noel:I remember this controversy heavily following her after the book

31:05Sophie Ross:Yes, it's followed her for life People still to this day hate her for it I think this is absolutely something that she should not have included in the book I don't, like what's the reason? I don't think it adds anything to her story I also think it was blown out of proportion With how many people were calling this sexual abuse She was seven years old like these therapists have said or psychologists have said that this is normal childhood curiosity. But again, I understand why people are very disturbed by this story. It's followed her for life. It is something that will continue to follow her. I just think it was something that should not have been included in her book because like I said, what was the reason?

31:50Sophie Ross:So another controversy that came out of the book was Lena discussing being sexually assaulted at Oberlin by a cowboy boot wearing Republican and radio show host named Barry. She meant for Barry to be a pseudonym, but the description apparently closely matched a real person who felt publicly identified and threatened to legal action. Lena and Penguin Random House made a statement saying Barry was just a pseudonym. People took her statement as some sort of confirmation that Lena had lied about being sexually assaulted and accused her of making it all up because the accused has never been identified or revealed and people claim he doesn't exist, even though it's like, how do you know every single Oberlin student at the time that she was there?

32:34Sophie Ross:Like the student body is relatively small, but 3000 students at a time. I Googled that. I was like, how many, what's the student body population of Oberlin around 3000 students at a time. That's not insignificant. How do you know every single person that goes to Oberlin?

32:47Christy Noel:Right. That logic does not make sense to me. and that just feels like they're trying to get Madeline in them for anything at that point. That's stupid.

32:55Sophie Ross:Yeah, exactly. Logic makes no sense. Exactly. As a lifelong renter who's probably going to be renting for the rest of my life at this point, it's hard for me to justify splurging on custom furniture or like chic, expensive vintage home finds when I know this isn't my forever home. That's what Wayfair is for. Because even though renting makes me less enthusiastic about spending money on furniture and home decor, I still want my apartment to feel chic and elevated. Duh. I've turned to Wayfair for home upgrades for over a decade now, long before they were a sponsor. From an armoire in our second bedroom to our randomly extremely chic wicker laundry basket that I'm literally obsessed with, Wayfair makes quality pieces that stand up to real life without breaking the bank.

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37:21Sophie Ross:This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. So some of her other controversies, of which there are many, when she projected her insecurities onto Odell Beckham Jr. Do you remember this, Christy? No. In 2016, during an interview with Amy Schumer for Lenny Letter, Lena recalls being seated next to Odell Beckham Jr. at the Met Gala instead of him, and you know who Odell Beckham Jr. is, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. NFL player. She said, I was sitting next to Odell Beckham Jr. and it was so amazing because it was like he looked at me he determined I was not the shape of a woman by his standards.

37:54Sophie Ross:He was like, that's a marshmallow. That's a child. That's a dog. It wasn't mean. He just seemed confused. The vibe was very much like, do I want to fuck it? Is it wearing a, yep, it's wearing a tuxedo. I'm going to go back to my cell phone. She added, it was like we were forced to be together and he literally was scrolling Instagram rather than have to look at a woman in a bow tie. I was like, this should be called the Metropolitan Museum of Getting Rejected by Athletes. She was understandably criticized for projecting thoughts and feelings onto him that he didn't have. He didn't say anything like that to her.

38:24Sophie Ross:She was literally just making up thoughts that he was having and characterizing their interaction in a way that felt very racist. Like him saying, do I want to fuck it? Like what? She first tried to clarify on Twitter saying the story reflected her own insecurities as an quote unquote, in her words, average bodied woman at a glamorous event and wasn't intended as a judgment on Beckham. She later apologized for real and said, I owe him an apology despite my moments of bravado, I struggle at industry events and in life with a sense of being a disappointed little girl who's begging for the attention of the popular kids.

38:58Sophie Ross:And so I projected these insecurities and made totally narcissistic assumptions about what he was thinking, then presented those assumptions as facts. I would never intentionally contribute to a long and often violent history of the over-sexualization of black male bodies, as well as false assumptions about black men's thoughts and behaviors. I'm so sorry, particularly to OBJ, who has every right to be on a cell phone, et cetera. That's just the beginning, though. There are many, many, many more foot-in-mouth moments when it comes to Miss Lena Dunham.

39:25Christy Noel:And the thing about that statement is, sure, we all have intrusive thoughts, and we all think things that may be insane, but we don't ever speak those intrusive thoughts out loud, and especially to an interview or to the press. I don't know. It just sounds like she cannot, she can't just keep her intrusive thoughts in her mind. Yes, absolutely no filter.

39:51Sophie Ross:Normal people have like a, it filters the thoughts before they come out of the mouth. She does not have that. And again, it's like her explanation. It's like, I am this quote unquote average bodied woman who feels insecure at these industry events and blah, blah, blah. It's normal to feel insecure, but it's not normal to project those insecurities onto an innocent bystander. Also in 2016, she said that she wishes she'd had an abortion so she could better understand women who have. Obviously, this received a ton of backlash for being extremely insensitive and privileged, undermining how serious of a life event an abortion is with real life implications beyond just getting to say, oh, I've had an abortion.

40:35Sophie Ross:It's a real life event. and she later apologized saying, my words were spoken from a sort of quote unquote delusional girl persona I often inhabit, a girl who careens between wisdom and ignorance. That's what my TV show is too. And it didn't translate. That's my fault. I would never ever intentionally trivialize the emotional and physical challenges of terminating a pregnancy. So it's kind of like a cycle as you'll notice where she says something stupid, gets called out, has an apology where she's like, I'm just a stupid girl. and then does it again. It's like just a cycle with her.

41:11Christy Noel:Yeah, and she says the most unfiltered, intrusive thoughts having to do with the most divisive of topics, such as race, sex. Like, Jesus, keep your, like, I don't know. Yeah, this one's kind of tough to even rationalize or what she was even thinking when she said this. Maybe a better way to phrase it would have been, I empathize with women who've had to abort pregnancies and I myself have never had one. I can only imagine what these women have gone through. There's a different way to say this than I wish I'd had an abortion myself. What are you talking about? Yep, exactly.

41:51Sophie Ross:On to 2017, her hashtag MeToo controversy. And this is when she lost me for a while. And there's really no explaining this away. It was a disgusting moment for her, widely condemned, just disgusting. Like I said, like she lost me for years when this happened. And I'm a longtime fan of hers. So I understand why people will never, ever be able to enjoy Lena Dunham's work after this. Do you remember anything related to Lena's Me Too controversy or not really?

42:22Christy Noel:No, I literally got I feel so dumb when it comes to her. I like don't remember anything. No, that's OK. Yeah, that's OK.

42:28Sophie Ross:Let's first note that Lena was one of the first people to come out in support of the Me Too movement, which was very in line with her brand. She has always been very politically engaged. She has been outspoken, outspoken supporter of Obama, of Hillary Clinton. So it was very, very on brand for her to come out and say, she tweeted on Twitter, the women who chose to speak about their experience of harassment by Harvey Weinstein deserve our awe. It's not fun or easy. It's brave. Exactly. But later in October, so she tweeted that on October 5th, 2017, later in October, during the height of this Me Too movement, girls writer Marie Miller was accused of sexual assault by actress Aurora Perino.

43:11Sophie Ross:Aurora says that in 2012, she met Miller while out drinking with her friends at LA's Standard Hotel when Miller was 35 and she was only 17. Later in the night, he asked one of her friends for a ride home and she went with them, somewhat reluctantly went into his house. She said in her statement that at some point I woke up in Murray's bed naked. He was on top of me having sexual intercourse with me. I freaked out and was extremely upset and traumatized. At no time did I consent to any sexual contact with Murray. She immediately filed a police report afterwards, which is sadly the best thing you could do in a situation in order to be believed and should be considered irrefutable proof that it actually did happen, although he was never charged.

43:53Christy Noel:And how much guts it takes for a woman, like you said, to actually report a rape. I mean, the statistics are astounding. Many women, most women do not. So the fact that she went to the police right after shows that something fucking happened. I'm not saying if you didn't file anything, it didn't happen. But she wants there to be written documentation that such an event occurred.

44:13Sophie Ross:Yes, exactly. Lena and Jenny Connor released a statement, a joint statement together saying Aurora was lying. only because Murray Miller was their friend. So this is the statement. During the windfall of deeply necessary accusations over the last few months in Hollywood, we have been thrilled to see so many women's voices heard and dark experiences in this industry justified. It's a hugely important time of change, and like every feminist in Hollywood and beyond, we celebrate. But during every time of change, there are also inc... What's this word? Incidences. Incidences. Why couldn't I read the word incident?

44:51Christy Noel:The way it reads on the paper, it looks weird. Incident, plural. Incident. Why am I reading like incendiary? I don't know. I know, same.

45:01Sophie Ross:Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Of the culture and its enthusiasm and zell taking down the wrong targets. We believe, having worked closely with him for more than half a decade, that this is the case with Murray Miller. While our first instinct is to listen to every woman's story, our insider knowledge of Murray's situation makes us confident that, sadly, this accusation is one of the 3 % of assault cases that are misreported every year. It is a true, you know, exactly. It is a true shame to add to that number as outside of Hollywood, women still struggle to be believed. We stand by Murray and this is all we'll be saying about this issue.

45:33Christy Noel:Do you know what I'm thinking of as you're talking about this? Guess what person I'm thinking about in Hollywood that kind of did something similar? I don't know. Tell me. Mila Kunis and Ashton Koshner. Not that they said that the woman, I don't think they were out as outright as saying these women should not be believed, but they were like, Danny Masterson is an upstanding citizen. He's been an amazing godfather or whatever, or like whatever, not godfather, but you know what I mean. Yes, yes. Loyal friend to our children. And you wrote a victim, on top of the victim impact statement, they were like, no, no, no.

46:04Christy Noel:This is a character witness statement and we believe Danny Masterson. And they've never been able to really come back from that either. I still hate them for that. And they were some of my favorite Hollywood couples.

46:15Sophie Ross:Oh, same. And at least Lena said it with her chest, like to the public.

46:19Christy Noel:Mila and Ashton were doing this in a way where they thought that this would never get out to the public. Yes. Right. They even said, I think, when the statement was released, we never wanted this to see the light of day. We thought this was only for the judge. No, that's actually such a good distinction. At least Lena said it with her name to it. She's like, listen, this is what I think. We're not saying this is right, obviously. Oh, my God.

46:38Sophie Ross:It was so, so awful. It is actually the most disgusting thing that anyone could do. It's actually crazy that she has been able to at all come back from this because it's fucking disgusting.

46:52Christy Noel:I agree.

46:53Sophie Ross:Aurora is also a woman of color. So it's like you are discrediting a rape victim. Also, the fact that she was even this 35 year old man was even hanging out with a 17 year old girl. Why the fuck was he even around her? Like, it's just disgusting. It's awful. and Jenny and Lena unsurprisingly got lashed for this. And this ultimately, it's not exactly known what led to their downfall, but this is what a lot of people think is that this is when they stopped being creative partners. They got so much shit for this, deservedly so. Not only were they defending a man accused of rape, but his accuser, like I said, was a woman of color and a teenager at the time.

47:35Sophie Ross:That's disgusting. I think of my friend's kids.

47:38Christy Noel:I'm like, these people are literal infants. That's disgusting. Yeah. Walk them up.

47:43Sophie Ross:Yeah. She'd filed a police report and taken a polygraph test even before the Me Too movement began. And they were basically saying like, this man is our friend and he's nice to us. So there's no way he could be a rapist. That's obviously the worst and most useless argument in the book. And she later apologized in a Hollywood Reporter column and admitted to not having any quote-unquote insider info or insider knowledge because in the statement they say we have this insider knowledge like she's lying she admits they didn't have any insider knowledge they were just acting on blind faith and she admits you know i made a terrible mistake apologized directly to aurora and blah blah blah and her apology was widely condemned the independent said that dunham's apology failed to address racial dynamics and white privilege, calling it more about Dunham's personal growth than Aurora's experience.

48:37Sophie Ross:And the Guardian described the apology as burdened with patriarchal overtones, arguing that Dunham blamed external forces like the patriarchy rather than taking full personal responsibility, etc. Just like so bad, so bad. Just there are no excuses. I, it's just so disgusting.

48:58Christy Noel:And also this, the victim, Aurora, I'm not familiar with her, but you have this woman who is such a high standing in Hollywood, who's speaking so publicly on your rape and your assault and saying with her whole chest that it is not real. How humiliating on top of an already incredibly traumatic and disturbing event that you have this huge Hollywood star saying, we heard what she said. It's bullshit. That's humiliating. Oh, awful, traumatic? Yes, that in and of itself is already another traumatic event on top of the already traumatic event. Like this is, I can't even imagine what Aurora was going through when Lena did not make this statement.

49:39Sophie Ross:Yeah, it's disgusting. Just completely inexcusable. So also in 2017, Lena released a statement that she was sadly giving up her dog, Lambie, who had behavioral issues like aggression, biting, peeing everywhere. She blamed the shelter she adopted him from, a shelter called Bark for not disclosing the behavioral issues in advance, as well as the fact that he was, quote unquote, abused as a puppy. And this was after she had debuted him in Vogue and all over social media in 2014. So her followers and fans were very familiar with Lammy. This was also despite her then boyfriend, Jack Antonoff's dog allergy.

50:16Sophie Ross:Bark, the dog shelter, disputed her account and said, when Lena adopted the dog from us, it wasn't crazy, spokesman Robert Vasquez wrote. I have pictures of the dog loving on Lena and her mom, which is weird if the dog was abused. I don't like how he in the statement refers to the dog as it, but this is his statement. He says it wouldn't be cuddling with her or be in the bed with her boyfriend in the pages of Vogue. We would have told her if the dog had issues. We are no kill shelter. We don't lie about the dog's histories because that gets them returned. And mentally it's not good for dogs. Lena clapped back at that and she acknowledged that their accounts differed, writing that Lammy's aggression, which was unpredictable and his particular issues, which remain myriad, weren't manageable, at least not by me.

50:58Sophie Ross:And she said, why should this story be subject to scrutiny and anger? It is willfully misunderstanding the truth. I hope those judging can imagine the incredible pain of letting go of your favorite creature on earth because you know you can't help them be healthy and happy, et cetera. Actually in her show, her Netflix show Too Much, starring Meg Salter, and it's supposed to be a semi-autobiographical show about Lena picking up, leaving New York and moving to London after her breakup with Jack Anstoff and then meeting her now husband in London. Hear that?

51:30Christy Noel:That's now Crispy and McCrispy Strips meeting creamy Caesar sauce. Sounds extra crispy. Caesar sauce at McDonald's for a limited time.

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53:43Sophie Ross:The character Zev, that's supposed to be based on Jack Antonoff. is literally a demon from hell, emotionally abusive, awful. Like, this isn't all based on Jack Antonoff. Jack Antonoff is fucking evil because this character is awful. And in the show, she gets the dog, and her boyfriend at the time makes her give up the dog. So it is implied that Jack Antonoff was the reason that she gave up this dog and took all that heat for that.

54:11Christy Noel:Wow. That's kind of shocking. I don't know too much about Jack Antonoff, other than the fact that Taylor Swift is one of his closest confidants and vice versa. That actually shocks me. Also, my sister ran into him and Margaret Qualley last week.

54:24Sophie Ross:Oh my God, were they nice?

54:26Christy Noel:Yeah, she said that she stopped Margaret and Jack was on the phone. But she told Margaret, I am obsessed with you. I love all your work. I love your husband's work. And it was a very brief interaction. But she said they looked fabulous as they were walking around the Hampstead Heath. But yeah, interestingly enough. But that's, I don't know. Well, with Jack Antonoff and his activity when it came to Lorde and Lena, maybe he isn't all he's cracked up to be.

54:49Sophie Ross:And that is, we will get to that. I know that people don't like when we say we will get to that, but we will. Sometimes it's just like a matter of we will get to that. Yeah, yeah. But it's here, you guys. Another controversy. In 2018, Lena was hired to write the screenplay for an untitled film based on the memoir, A Hope More Powerful Than the Sea, One Refugee's Incredible Story of Love, Loss, and Survival by Melissa Fleming. It was the real-life story of Doa al-Zamal, who fled Egypt for Europe and survived a shipwrecked refugee boat along with two orphaned children, with Steven Spielberg and J.J.

55:23Sophie Ross:Abrams set to produce. And she got a lot of flack for this because Daniel Medina, a journalist, can say it better than I can. He wrote, Lena Dunham constantly talks about representation as crucial to enrich storytelling. Yet in practice, she has shown a disregard for actual elevating, actually elevating those voices. Now she's been signed on to write a Syrian refugee story, question mark. So it goes back to for girls, she says, I didn't have any characters that were people of color because I couldn't write those experiences. But now when it comes to writing about the experience of a Syrian refugee, you are taking up space from someone who actually will have the experience to write about this more accurately.

56:06Christy Noel:Right. Whatever she said about 10 years ago. I remember, I wonder how far apart this was. So this was 2018.

56:11Sophie Ross:It was about a six year difference. She made that statement in 2012 and then this happened in 2018. So six years later.

56:17Christy Noel:Interesting.

56:18Sophie Ross:Yeah. Just some miscellaneous Lena factoids. She, like I said, has always been an out and proud Democrat, has openly supported Obama, Hillary Clinton. She's spoken on social issues a lot throughout her career, which is great until it isn't. Hence her many controversies and like foot and mouth moments, like saying that she wishes she'd gotten an abortion. She said that in a way to be like, I support women who get abortions, but then obviously it comes out wrong. She was diagnosed with OCD as a child. And there are a few storylines and girls that hearken back to this diagnosis. All I'll say for the girls viewers out there, Q-tip episode.

56:52Sophie Ross:In 2018, she wrote about getting a hysterectomy due to an endometriosis diagnosis. cysts. Also in 2018, she entered rehab for a benzo addiction and she celebrated two years of sobriety in 2020. I'm not sure if she is still sober, but I know that she was sober for at least several years after going to rehab for her addiction. In 2019, she revealed that she has Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, a genetic disorder characterized by stretchy skin, loose joints, joint pain, et cetera. And then as for some other career things, in 2017, she had a minor role in American Horror Story cult. I love that season. I can't remember Lena in it, even though I know you watch American Horror Story too.

57:35Christy Noel:Yeah. I don't remember her at all. I just remember Sarah Paulson and Evan Peters in their outstanding performance. But yeah, Lena Dunham, I didn't realize she was on it.

57:43Sophie Ross:Yeah. That was a good season too.

57:45Christy Noel:It was.

57:45Sophie Ross:In 2019, she had a brief role in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. I also don't remember her role in that. Did you ever see that movie? No, I didn't. Christy is like anti-Quentin Tarantino, if you guys remember Inglourious Bastards.

57:59Christy Noel:I just haven't seen any great films. Like, I'm too busy watching It Ends With Us and The Map That Leads To You. The Map That Leads To You, you guys, was so bad. I was asking the girls, I'm like, who has seen The Map That Leads To You, anyone? And I said, it's a great romance movie. I watched it on a Saturday night. It was fabulous. And Sophie goes, that was one of the worst movies I've ever seen. I was like, oh, I loved it. It was so bad.

58:26Sophie Ross:Also, yeah, let us know, you guys, what you thought about A Map That Leads to You and also Madeline Klein, her on and off relationship with Zach Bia, which Christy and I were texting about this weekend. It's just something that we can't we can't get over. We need to do a Madeline Klein episode.

58:41Christy Noel:Yeah. She's my Roman Empire.

58:43Sophie Ross:Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Especially as you guys know, we love Outer Banks. Like we are very passionate about Madeline Klein.

58:49Christy Noel:And we are very passionate about I shouldn't speak for you. I am very passionate about my hatred for Chase Stokes.

58:55Sophie Ross:Yes, you are. And then I'm also very passionate about finding out why Zach Bia is like, gets all these girls. Madison Beer, speaking of Madison Beer, Olivia Rodrigo, Madeline Klein.

59:06Christy Noel:And we're also very passionate about Drew Starkey.

59:10Sophie Ross:Yes, we are. Madeline Klein's on-screen brother. Okay, so back to Lena. In 2022, she released two movies that she wrote, directed, and produced, Sharpstick, which got pretty bad reviews. And Catherine Called Birdie, starring Bella Ramsey, that actually got good reviews. I haven't seen either, actually. So maybe I'm not as loyal of Alina Dunham fan as I have implied. And like I said, this year she released that aforementioned semi-autobiographical show called Too Much, starring Meg Stalter. Her ex-boyfriend on the show, Zev, is largely thought to be based on Jack Antonoff, a fucking psycho piece of shit on the show.

59:49Sophie Ross:And Will Sharp is supposed to be based off of her now husband. The show got mixed reviews. I really enjoyed it. I thought it was fun. Meg Salter did well, I thought, at the beginning. And then as the show gets more emotional, she's like an internet comedian, first and foremost. She also acts, obviously, but I don't know if she really was up to par with the crying and the emotional scenes, I guess. It wasn't really like the writing as much as it was the acting that kind of got criticized by critics. I personally think that Lena stole the show every time she was on camera. She was a supporting, she was in a supporting role, not a main character, but was a regular occurring supporting character.

1:00:37Sophie Ross:And I just, I don't know, like I said, like I just feel like she stole the show every time she was on camera. I was like, she's a star. She just has an it factor if you really watch her work. I don't know. Disagree with me. I don't know. I just, I really think that she is a star. And again, it's like she just, it's not because she has those movie star good looks. And I know we keep talking about her appearances because I think it's really important when it comes to discussing Lena Dunham's career and the criticism around her and the controversies surrounding her. She has a new movie called Good Sex set to be released in 2027.

1:01:11Sophie Ross:So TBD on that. Moving on to her relationships. As promised, we're going to talk about Jack Antonoff. Oh, Jack Antonoff. Formerly of the band Fun. I forgot about that band. What did they sing again? Stomp clap. We are young. Yes. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stomp clap. That song's annoying. I know. It's annoying as fuck. He is famously a longtime collaborator of Taylor Swift. Side note, Lena and Taylor Swift were also very close at one point. If you remember this photo, I think this was during the Bad Blood era. And there's Lily Aldridge, Haley Steinfeld, Gigi Hadid all on stage with Taylor, along with Lena Dunham, who's kind of a short one.

1:01:54Sophie Ross:They're all tall supermodels and there's Lena and it's become like a meme.

1:01:58Christy Noel:Yeah, people think that this love on 1989 is about Jack Cantanoff and Lena Dunham. But we were talking about this when we were in my car. And didn't you say it may not be about them?

1:02:09Sophie Ross:Wait, is it this love? I thought it was another song. I could be wrong.

1:02:14Christy Noel:Let me look on. Yeah, let's fact check. Yeah. One song on her album is about. You are in love. You are in love. Yeah. You're right. Sorry. Not this love is good. It's like, yeah.

1:02:27Sophie Ross:So it's alleged that that actually, yeah, is about Jack Antonoff and Lena Dunham. But that has not been confirmed, obviously. So Lena and Jack began dating in 2012 up until 2017. and I know we don't know the inner workings of any celebrity relationship, but it always kind of seemed like she was maybe more into him than he was into her. Just based on some of the comments she would make, she would always talk about like getting engaged soon and like wanting to get engaged and then they obviously never got engaged. She tweeted famously once, this was on November 2nd, 2017 and this was like shortly, very shortly before they broke up.

1:03:06Sophie Ross:She tweeted, I thought Jack was furtively planning a proposal to me with his sister, and he just admitted I actually caught him talking shit about me. It's like, why would you admit that? Yeah. Oh, my God. It is widely speculated that Jack cheated on Lena with Lorde. There's an infamous PowerPoint about this, although it's never been confirmed. So apparently, Jack was a collaborator for Lorde's album Melodrama, and apparently they were together all the time. they maybe got a little too close.

1:03:40Christy Noel:I forgot when Lord was with that like taller, thinner Asian man.

1:03:45Sophie Ross:Yeah, his name was...

1:03:49Christy Noel:I've totally forgot about that relationship. James Lowe.

1:03:52Sophie Ross:Yeah, James Lowe. Yes. So yeah, it's speculated that they may have had an affair and cheated on their respective spouses. And at the time, Lord was around 20 and Jack was around 32. So again, another gross age gap. Yeah. It's also, I thought this was interesting from the PowerPoint about this, that the Drake song Summer 16 was written about Jack and Lorde hooking up all Summer 16.

1:04:19Christy Noel:What?

1:04:20Sophie Ross:It always comes back to 2016, dude. I know it does. Wait, Christy's face. Oh my God, you guys, I wish if you're watching on YouTube, Christy's face. What did I do? What? Oh my God. Like, I just know Christy's about to fall into a rabbit hole after this. I know that face when I see it. I know. And I'm looking at the relationship map on Appendix B. There's a lot. You guys, this PowerPoint is it's infamous for good reason.

1:04:46Christy Noel:Yeah.

1:04:46Sophie Ross:And shout out to Buzz Killary on Tumblr for this. So when Lena and Jack announced their breakup in December 2017, Lena says they've actually been in the process of breaking up for quote unquote six months, even though she tweeted that she thought she was getting engaged that November. So again, it's almost, I think she was maybe more into him than he was into her. But who knows? We don't know. Lena, after the breakup, picked up and moved to London, hence the show Too Much on Netflix. And she met and married her now husband, musician Louis Felber in 2021. And so as for Lena's legacy, she's obviously an extremely complicated, extremely controversial person.

1:05:30Sophie Ross:A lot of the things she said and done can never be walked back. It almost seems, like I said, it's like a cycle. It's like you say something stupid and then you apologize. And then you say something stupid again and then you apologize. And it's like she never really like learns. Although it's been quite a few years since her last big controversy. And a lot of this is because she was off the grid with health issues and was kind of keeping a lower profile for a couple of years during the pandemic after several years of just blunder after blunder. And all that said, I think a lot of people can admit, no matter how they feel about her as a person, that she is, she's talented.

1:06:09Sophie Ross:She is a very talented writer. She's a very talented director and actress. I think that Girls is one of the greatest shows of our generation. The voice of a generation, literally. A lot of people would agree with you, yeah. Yeah, and that's famously a quote from the show is, I think I could be the voice of my generation or a voice of a generation. I really think that she is the voice of a generation. The fact that it's undergoing a major resurgence with Gen Z, discovering it for the first time, there's kind of been this newfound appreciation for her. Whereas for years from like 2016 to 2020, like I said, it was controversy after controversy.

1:06:48Sophie Ross:She was viciously hated and torn apart on the internet for years. And a lot of it was deserved, completely deserved. Like I said, the Me Too movement comments, especially defending a repus. Like, yeah, fuck you, Lena Dunham. At the same time, a lot of the criticism that she's gotten over the years has been misogynistic and body shamey. But in any case, it definitely feels like she's had kind of this resurgence, this comeback recently. Yeah.

1:07:16Christy Noel:Yeah, I think that with Lena Dunham, she has said a shit ton of problematic things. And it's not like one-offs or, you know, it's stacked on top of one another. And it's like they progressively get more and more egregious and more and more offensive. So I think in this case, because she has such good work, I'm willing to watch girls and separate the art from the artists. And honestly, I've seen even clips on TikTok of too much. And the dialogue seems really quick and really smart and very realistic. I would honestly be interested in watching that as well. I'll probably just start with girls because that's iconic.

1:07:51Christy Noel:and I think that would define probably my millennial experience and make me relive out like my glory days but yeah I think two things can exist at once I think she can be a really strong creator and come out with really intelligent smart funny things but at the same time you don't have to like her I get why she's so divisive I get why people really fucking hate her the things that she said are really really reprehensible and for some unforgivable yeah

1:08:17Sophie Ross:Yeah, exactly. It's like, I completely understand why people hate her. I think, like I said at the top of the episode, would she get more forgiveness and grace if she had pretty privilege? Maybe, but I totally, yeah, probably definitely actually, but I totally understand why people hate her and are not interested in following her work or supporting her work in any way. I totally get it. As for me, it's like you said, it's kind of that separating the art from the artist thing. Do I always like her as a person? Not at all. Do I love and appreciate her work. Yeah.

1:08:49Christy Noel:Yeah. So I don't know.

1:08:50Sophie Ross:It's just one of those things where it's like, but you kind of have to just decide, decide what's right for you. Choose your own adventure when it comes to Lena Dunham. As for me, I just am a fan of her work, unfortunately, and I will continue to follow it. But I understand if you think that I am disgusting because of that. I get it. Like, I get it. I get why people hate her. I get why people think that she is irredeemable, but I don't know. Yeah. I mean, very complicated.

1:09:17Christy Noel:And we can feel personally victimized by some of her statements as well. Like some of the things that she said do actually hit home for Sophie and I, and probably hit home for a lot of you as well. So it's, you can feel personally victimized by a lot of these statements and that can exist at the same time.

1:09:35Sophie Ross:Yeah, exactly. Okay. Well, that about wraps it up. You guys, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for listening. And I just completely, I'm like, what do we usually say? Oh, thank you to Jordan,

1:09:49Christy Noel:our producer, Rachel, our social manager, Olivia, our researcher. If you guys want more episodes from us, we come out with Patreon episodes, bonus content every Wednesday. We also have ad-free episodes over there from the main Tuesday, Thursday episodes. So head on over there if you want more of us. Otherwise, we'll see you guys on Tuesday for another Dark Energy Tuesday. and thank you so much for listening. Bye. Bye.

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