What’s the Snark on My Favorite Murder?

17:31Georgia Hardstark:It's dystopian almost is what it feels like. Like it feels like it's something out of a dystopian future. Stay sexy and don't get murdered.

17:41Karen Kilgariff:And I think even that catchphrase, don't get murdered, it feels to some people victim blaming.

17:48Georgia Hardstark:It does. It's like, oh, this person couldn't avoid being murdered like it was their fault that they got murdered. Right.

17:56Karen Kilgariff:And I think that tagline in and of itself, murderinos like myself, you would just say it at the end of every day. Stay sexy. Don't get murdered. Every live show, they would end it. Stay sexy and don't get murdered. People will be cheering that on. But it just feels when you actually construct that sentence, it is kind of problematic.

18:12Georgia Hardstark:Yeah, I really don't like that.

18:13Karen Kilgariff:People, of course, no one wants to get murdered. These victims died from murder and they didn't want any part of it, but they couldn't help it. Something happened to them that's super traumatic. It's just it's very dark. But let's talk about their rise. So I legitimately remember where I was when I discovered My Favorite Murder. I was on a flight and Serial had recently released and I was kind of just looking for podcasts. And I went to the top charts on Apple and I found My Favorite Murder. And I noticed one of the first episodes was JonBenet Ramsey. And I've had a hyperfixation on this case since I was a little girl, to be honest.

18:42Karen Kilgariff:And I remember thinking, huh, this sounds kind of cool and interesting. Let's listen to it. And then becoming absolutely obsessed. I went to one of their live shows in Oakland one year. Me and my friend Courtney got one another merch for our birthdays. Like, I was just so obsessed with them. And a fun fact as well, Georgia and I, like, went to the same high school. She's a couple, you know, years older than me. But I was like, oh, this girl grew up in my town, went to the same high school. That's kind of cool. By 2020, so just four years after they started this show, the show was pulling 35 million downloads a month.

19:16Georgia Hardstark:Wow.

19:17Karen Kilgariff:They did 40 live shows in a single year. Wow. Can you imagine, Sophie? 40 live shows in a year? Nope. We did three live shows. And it was exhausting. It was literally. It was a lot. It was a lot. So I can't even imagine basically 15X-ing what they did. In 2020, they also signed a Stitcher development deal worth at least$10 million. They had a 55 ,000-person paid fan club called The Fan Cult, where it's basically like a Patreon where members would pay$40 a year to access exclusive episodes that weren't put on the main feed. So 55 ,000 people,$40 a year, that's$2.2 million in gross revenue just from their fan cult.

20:01Karen Kilgariff:According to Forbes, the podcast duo were raking in an estimated$15 million in 2019, making them the second highest earning podcasters at the time. I'd imagine like Joe Rogan was probably just right above them. And when I think about A-class podcasters, I'm like, okay, Joe Rogan, armchair expert, crime junkie, call her daddy. Those are always on the top charts. But I think that we literally forget because it's been, you know, over 10 years at this point. They really were the first to do it, to rake in so much money, especially to female podcasters. I mean, besides Joe Rogan.

20:31Georgia Hardstark:Are they still, like, at the top of the charts? I need to check.

20:36Karen Kilgariff:They definitely are still top charted, but nearly as much as they were between, like, the years of 2017 and 2019, which is what I like to call their heyday.

20:43Georgia Hardstark:Right.

20:45Karen Kilgariff:Their fandom was called the Murderinos. and they had many a Facebook group. They had this main Facebook group called, I don't know, My Favorite Murderer, Murderinos or something like that. And it was legitimately a cult.

20:56Georgia Hardstark:Wait, I'm just going to say that I'm scrolling through the top podcasts. I'm scrolling, scrolling, scrolling. And they are not in the top 100 podcasts.

21:06Karen Kilgariff:Wow. Okay, so they had a serious call from Grace because I would say the heyday was 2017 to 2019 and they were at least like top 20 constantly. And these Facebook groups, they became communities for people, for people to, you know, share their interests in true crime, tell their own hometown stories on the page. I was even a part of it at one point. And the irony is not really a loss on anyone. They would have many a catchphrase on the show, for instance, fuck toxic masculinity, fuck politeness, you're in a cult, call your dad. Do you remember these catchphrases, Sophie?

21:38Georgia Hardstark:Yes, I do. Okay, wait. Also, I didn't see them in the top 100, but when I go to their page, sorry, I'm just trying to see where they're ranking these days. It does say number 66 in top podcasts. So maybe I missed them when I was scrolling, but still. Still.

21:50Karen Kilgariff:At one point, I feel like they were always in the top 20s.

21:52Georgia Hardstark:They were in like the top, yeah, top 20, top 10. Okay, sorry.

21:55Karen Kilgariff:No, no, no. It's relevant because it really shows just how their relevancy has waved. They're still doing great for themselves, but not nearly as well as they have them.

22:02Georgia Hardstark:Oh, I would love to be number 66 in the top 100. Can you imagine?

22:06Karen Kilgariff:Listen, okay? So, so many people were so obsessed with being a part of this murderino community. People felt as if they found a community. Because I think before Serial, before MFM, we would consume true crime. At least I'm speaking for myself. My sister and I would watch like 48 Hours Mystery on Saturdays on like ABC. You would consume it in isolation. But then you realize, oh my God, there's this whole community of people that has this weird interest in true crime. and murder like I do. And now there's a community online where I can talk about it. And we all listen to the same podcast. It felt so almost freeing.

22:45Karen Kilgariff:Like you felt not alone. You didn't feel isolated anymore. And people were so obsessed with the show that they ended up getting tattoos to show that they were murderinos for life. And we'll get into it, but some people felt really betrayed and conned after so many scandals came upon them. I think things started to really break when Wondery, which is a podcast production that was a subsidiary of Amazon ended up acquiring the rights to distribute the show and sell ads on My Favorite Murder. We'll get into that. But I think that was the first time people were like, oh my God, I got a tattoo that's now for life.

23:14Karen Kilgariff:And now I just, I can't stand these women. There are sellouts.

23:18Georgia Hardstark:That's also such a problem, I feel like, with podcasters that are very anti-establishment or anti-whatever it is. And then they end up getting signed with Amazon or Dear Media or whatever it is. And then everyone is like, you're a hypocrite.

23:34Karen Kilgariff:No, I know. I know. It's kind of a catch-22 because when Karen and Georgia started the show, they were not making a lot of money. I remember when they started the show, they would record in Georgia's apartment in Los Feliz, this tiny little apartment that she lived in with her husband, Vince. Karen would come over. They didn't really have two nickels to rub together. And people found that to be very refreshing and relatable. They're like, there are these two queens, liberal queens, white women, that congregate, talk about true crime, and they're not rich. So we relate to them. But as soon as they started earning a little bit of money and then they became acquired by Amazon, it was like, who are these women really?

24:12Karen Kilgariff:Do we really know them? And I kind of get the parasocial relationship that a lot of people share. And I think like, I mean, I've even heard it in our reviews too. Like people will call us sellouts, even though we've like, Sophie and I are the same damn people as when we started the show. It's like so funny when I read things like that. I'm like, wait.

24:30Georgia Hardstark:Sellouts? Selling out to who? please please someone someone buy we can be bought oh i tell somebody that all the time we can be bought so right please tell us who we're selling you guys we still i say it all the time we're still working our fucking full-time jobs dude i know if we were sold out to anyone i wish we could one time i read this thing and they're like you know their live shows they're just

24:57Karen Kilgariff:looking to make a buck i'm like dude we were so in the red it's not even funny we we were so in

25:02Georgia Hardstark:the red. We did not profit at all for live shows. I say that too when people are like, oh, so like, how much did you make from the live shows? Like people in my life. I'm like, oh, we owed money. Oh my God. But it was so worth it to like meet. That's not what it was about. Totally.

25:16Karen Kilgariff:We knew we weren't going to make a profit at all. But anyways, it's so funny when I read this because at some time when I'm reading some of this, I'm like, oh my God, I even read about us like this on a smaller scale. So I can completely imagine how weird it was for Karen and Georgia to be kind of nobodies with very little money to skyrocketing into fame. And you have to remember when they started this show, Karen was 45. Georgia was 35. So they have been adults, quote unquote, adulting for years now. Right. And so to kind of come up with very humble beginnings for the majority of your adult life and all of a sudden come into a lot of wealth, stark.

25:52Karen Kilgariff:Also a lot of wealth with a lot of attention. That's really, really weird. And I don't envy that necessarily of having to feel like your life is under a microscope, but you're also trying to wrestle with like having money now and fame. And it's very odd. Right.

26:07Georgia Hardstark:Because it's like, how can you, when you put yourself in their shoes, how can you turn down Amazon money if you are a struggling, you know, podcaster? I mean, at the time when they got the Amazon deal, they weren't really struggling anymore. But still, it's like, would you turn it down? I don't know. Yeah.

26:22Karen Kilgariff:And I just have to say, like, genuinely, I couldn't. Like, I could not because it's life changing money. It creates generational wealth. I mean, and people can say on their high horse that they wouldn't. But I think at the end of the day, I personally wouldn't.

26:38Georgia Hardstark:It's hard. Yeah. I mean, it's hard to say unless you're literally in that in that position, you know and you can have you know your your morals that you stand on and in your soapbox or whatever it is but if you're actually in that position how could you say for a fact that you would turn down life-changing money you don't really know so it's like I find it hard to but I but I also get it I also totally understand the criticism at the same time so of course it's

27:05Karen Kilgariff:like you said a catch-22 right and I think because their whole shtick was going against the man it almost felt like the antithesis of what they were standing for the entire show. I think that's where the frustration really lied was like, you said one thing and now you're doing the complete opposite. Right. So in 2018, two years after they founded the show, they founded Exactly Right Media. So they started their own podcast network where they would have shows under the umbrella and they would acquire ads on behalf of the show. They would take a cut of whatever ad their network would sell on their own show.

27:37Karen Kilgariff:And if you guys like are following the toast, they did the same thing where they started Toast News Network before they were acquired by Deer Media. But it's actually a really savvy business move. Like I could never do it to be able to acquire ads for podcasts, sell your show to people. I mean, it's hard. It's a full business part of the industry that like Sophie and I have no appreciation for, which is why we have a great network that helps us acquire ads. But they were pretty savvy in 2018. So they did this. And in January of 2022, that's when Amazon and Wondery took over exclusive distribution rights to the show and to the network.

28:06Karen Kilgariff:a deal reported at over$100 million. And Amazon didn't outright buy Exactly Right, which is their podcast network. Rather, they partnered with it, taking over ad sales in exchange for a release window. And episodes of My Favorite Murder, as well as all the other shows under their network, like The Murder Squad and This Podcast Will Kill You, would drop a week early on Amazon Music and Wondery Plus before going wide to their main feed. And the terms weren't officially disclosed. It's a private transaction, But Bloomberg reported this over$100 million of distribution and ad sales across the entire Exactly Right portfolio.

28:42Karen Kilgariff:Wow. And, of course, Karen and Georgia being accused of becoming corporate sellouts. And there was also a lot of, like, labor and business controversies surrounding Amazon as a whole. It's not like they were signing with, like, I heard. You're signing with Wondery. That is an Amazon, part of the Amazon conglomerate, which is, like, the definition of corporate selling out. So it just felt like such a contention point for a lot of their listeners that have gotten tattoos that were like against the grain, against the patriarchy, only to hear that they sold out to Amazon.

29:12Georgia Hardstark:Well, first of all, if you're listening to this and you have a baby snark tattoo, this doesn't apply to you. Why would you get a tattoo for your favorite podcast?

29:22Karen Kilgariff:Dude, that's what I'm saying.

29:24Georgia Hardstark:Like, what if I got a tattoo with like Ben and Ronnie's face on it? Watch what crap happens.

29:32Georgia Hardstark:Like not?

29:33Karen Kilgariff:No. No, like if anything, that would be the appropriate type of tattoo to get. Right. But why it got awkward was it got even more awkward, right? So the deal with this Amazon deal closes in January of 2022. And there was this podcast that was under the Exactly Right Network with Paul Holes and Billy Jensen, who they were very close with, these two male podcast hosts. and they hosted a show called The Murder Squad, Billy and Paul Holes. And The Murder Squad was explicitly named in the announcement of Wondering Amazon acquiring the rights of Exactly Right, but The Murder Squad was canceled later that same year amid really disturbing Billy Jensen allegations.

30:14Karen Kilgariff:So as if the Amazon deal was not enough for fans to turn on the girls, the Billy Jensen sexual assault allegations were the nail in the coffin for a ton of the fans.

30:23Georgia Hardstark:Wait, this picture of him? No, he's like. I know.

30:27Karen Kilgariff:I was searching for a photo and I was like, this one will do.

30:31Georgia Hardstark:I hate him just based on this picture.

30:34Karen Kilgariff:He's like.

30:34Georgia Hardstark:Wait, you guys, this is terrifying. This photo. We have to post this.

30:37Karen Kilgariff:His really, really fair, pale skin with his piercing blue eyes looking into the camera deadpan like he's staring into your soul is the best way I can describe it. Excellent analogy, Sophie.

30:49Georgia Hardstark:He looks like, he looks like Timu Benedict Cumberbatch.

30:54Karen Kilgariff:Yes. He wishes. Oh, my God, he wishes. He's an unsettling guy. He was accused of sexually assaulting and harassing several women. He would get drunk at company events and grope women. And an employee from the Exactly Right Network was one of the accusers against Billy. And the employee immediately reported this incident to his or her supervisors, and I don't know who this victim is, and really exactly right, did nothing, and just continued to make this person, oh, it's a woman, continue to make this victim work with Billy. Rolling Stone reported at the time that Billy Jensen had a history of touching women inappropriately, and Rolling Stone had reached out to Jensen about the manner, to which he replied with an apology and told Rolling Stone, quote, he had a drinking problem and coupled that with mental health issues that was like, basically a storm.

31:42Georgia Hardstark:Oh, please. That's not accountability.

31:44Karen Kilgariff:I'm sorry. If I get drunk, I'm not groping men grabbing their asses at bars. Give me a break. Yeah. Karen and Georgia offered only the, quote, end of an era tweet as the public statement about their decision to let Jensen go, and they were ending the Murder Squad podcast under their network.

31:58Georgia Hardstark:That's all they said. They just said end of an era.

32:01Karen Kilgariff:Yep. But they did not respond to Rolling Stone's request for comments, and they just simply removed him off of the network. And to this day, the girls have never mentioned anything about the Billy Jensen situation or what happened to the murder squad.

32:14Georgia Hardstark:That's bizarre. I'm sorry. That's bizarre.

32:17Karen Kilgariff:It's so bizarre. Again, considering that they are very liberal women espousing women's rights, very liberal views. They were the poster, not even poster children, poster adults for ultra liberal, kick-ass, successful women. And all of us thought, aren't you better than that? Someone on your network was literally assaulting. Credibly.

32:38Georgia Hardstark:Credibly accused. And in so few words admitted it in a statement full of excuses. Right.

32:45Karen Kilgariff:And the silence to their listeners was deafening. So if you think about 2022 not really being their year because exactly right, being acquired by Amazon slash Wondery, the Billy Jensen allegations. And two years, like it was just not a good year for the girls. And two years later, they had a come to Jesus moment and they decided to part with Wondery. So on January 4th, 2024, in episode 409 and on Instagram, they announced they severed ties with both Amazon Music and Wondery. Karen Kilgara said that they no longer wanted to work with Wondery and Amazon, so everyone would just listen together like the good old days.

33:19Karen Kilgariff:And yes, this framing is nice. You're kind of acknowledging the fact that we felt a little bit betrayed by the fact that you signed with frickin' Jeff Bezos' company. But okay, great. We're kind of back to our roots. and they actually ended up signing in February 2025, so a little over a year after they parted ways with Amazon with iHeart. iHeart got exclusive sales, marketing, distribution rights for all their 14 exactly right shows, plus co-production of any new shows. And I'm willing to bet they try to frame it like, oh, we hear you guys, we're going to part with Amazon. I bet you they just got a sweeter deal with iHeart or they were just like, they couldn't meet with terms and they decided to part.

33:58Karen Kilgariff:Like, I have no doubt they were doing this on precedent. Rather, it just the deal wasn't working out probably monetarily.

34:03Georgia Hardstark:Right. I have a question. When did you stop listening regularly?

34:08Karen Kilgariff:You know, I probably stopped listening in like maybe 2020. It kind of was a tapering off. It's I was lightly following the allegations. And admittedly, I didn't necessarily stop following because of all this. I think I just stopped enjoying the show as much. And it's as simple as that. I kind of was like, I'm not enjoying the show. I find myself skipping a lot of episodes. I find myself leaning towards Crime Junkie. Honestly, that's when I started really leaning into Crime Junkie. Yeah. Less on MFM. So it was like a slow, slow roll for me. I haven't listened in years.

34:41Georgia Hardstark:I feel like that was the same with me where I just discovered other true crime podcasts that were like scratching that itch better than this podcast. I have a question. Did you ever, this is kind of like a sidebar. Did you ever listen to Sword and Scale? No, but I know that was a huge, huge part. Oh my God. And the host of Sword and Scale, you guys, I, oh my God, I'm blanking on his name, Mike, I think. Oh my God. He is fucking crazy and super, super, super problematic. And it like ruined, obviously, this, this podcast for me. I haven't listened in years and years and years, but that is another one that I feel like would be worth digging into.

35:17Georgia Hardstark:He's like a horrible human being.

35:19Karen Kilgariff:Oh, my God. Okay. I have not even heard. I mean, obviously, I'm very familiar with Sword and Scale. That was always top charted.

35:24Georgia Hardstark:Mike Budai. And I loved Sword and Scale. I remember this was like my favorite. This was probably like 2017. Like, I stopped listening to My Favorite Murder. I was obsessed with Sword and Scale. I would listen constantly. Wow. And then I realized that he is a horrible human being.

35:39Karen Kilgariff:Yeah. The scratching the itch from me was Crime Junkie, and now it's Morbid. I'm obsessed with Morbid. And I know people have a lot of bad things to say about Morbid. I haven't really dug into it. I'm a new-ish listener. over the last probably seven, eight months. But we could do a whole other morbid podcast because I know that people have some interesting things to say about Elena and Ash. But as of... Okay, so Netflix and iHeart announced an exclusive video podcasting partnership just like honestly eight months ago, December 16th, 2025, where Netflix gets the exclusive video distribution rights and iHeart keeps all audio rights in distribution.

36:14Georgia Hardstark:Wait, they're one of the Netflix podcasts?

36:16Karen Kilgariff:Yes, yes. I didn't even know that.

36:18Georgia Hardstark:Wow, Netflix has not been pushing them on my Netflix for you page.

36:21Karen Kilgariff:But they sure as hell are pushing Octopus or whatever. Jake Shane.

36:24Georgia Hardstark:They're sure as fuck pushing Jake Shane. That's for sure.

36:27Karen Kilgariff:Enough.

36:29Georgia Hardstark:Enough.

36:30Karen Kilgariff:Enough. I don't want to see him on my screen. I don't want to see him on my FYP. I don't want to see him on my Netflix.

36:34Georgia Hardstark:Every clip, every clip I see, and I know that we're beating a dead horse here because you guys know we hate him, but every clip I see of Therapist, he's like, what?

36:45Karen Kilgariff:He's always shaking in his chair.

36:47Georgia Hardstark:He's always shaking and freaking out at something normal that like his celebrity guest says. That's every clip I see. Okay, sorry. I just had to say that.

36:54Karen Kilgariff:So let's move on to the controversies that they have been accused of. And I think all this is very, very fair criticism. So let's talk about their racial insensitivity, the criticism of the ethical treatment of their victims or victims that they cover, insensitive merchandise, and fan moderation issues in terms of their Facebook group. So let's talk about first the overall ethical criticism. So their kind of way of trivializing violence, like we said, they're a true crime comedy. So they blend comedy with really graphic descriptions of real murders and victims suffering. And they seem to be very hesitant or resistant to criticism, feedback, and change.

37:39Karen Kilgariff:And you can imagine this to be a very horrific story I'm about to tell. So they would do this segment called Hometown Murders, where they would have listeners email them of anything that happened in their hometown of a murder, abduction, what have you. Karen and Georgia ended up reading a story about this true crime case on their show. It was about some murder, or no, excuse me, a survivor story. What they didn't realize is that the girl that submitted that story was actually the daughter of a police officer in that hometown. It was actually not her story to tell. She was not the victim, but she was cosplaying as a victim in this email.

38:11Karen Kilgariff:You can imagine the shock of this victim who ended up hearing that her story was being talked about on a hometown MFM episode. So she ends up emailing Karen Georgia and was like, hey, that hometown story that some woman said was hers, that's actually mine. And this is kind of the ethics of talking about hometown murders without any validation. Anyone could go in. I could email and talk about a case that I hyped for Fixate on thinking that I'm this survivor, when in fact they're not double checking whether or not this person is actually the victim or anything like that. It ended up being, I think, okay, because the editors took out that segment of the podcast episode and they ended up putting in exactly what this victim story was word for word.

38:59Karen Kilgariff:And the victim ended up kind of exchanging emails with Karen and Georgia back and forth for like weeks. So she said she ended up being fine with it. But again, it kind of calls into question the ethics of telling random stories that you get via email. Right.

39:11Georgia Hardstark:If you're not going to verify, it seems like there's no, I don't know. Like diligence. There's no diligence. Yeah. They're so like laissez-faire about facts and details. And I feel like that in the true crime space is a little irresponsible.

39:31Karen Kilgariff:Yes. Yes. And you just have to take this with so, so much care. another thing that they do is like at live shows and again i've been to a live show before so i can attest that this does happen audiences laugh or react very oddly to very tragic details so for example in a fairly like typical moment from an early episode karen rehashes the story of larry singleton who in 1978 trigger warning this is like a very violent violent story larry singleton raped a teenage girl, cut off her arms, and left her beside a road to die. I remember the story.

40:10Georgia Hardstark:And she miraculously survived.

40:12Karen Kilgariff:Yes. The victim's name was Mary Vincent. She ended up surviving. And Larry Singleton served eight years of a 14-year sentence and then went on to commit a murder for which she was sentenced to death. So Karen has talked about this story, this horrific story on the podcast. And I guess she rehashed it on a live show and talked about how Larry Singleton, when he was incarcerated for a second time for the other murder that he did, he ends up dying of cancer in a prison hospital instead of being given the electric treatment. And obviously, like, they're talking about these cases so flippantly. And yes, we're talking about the death of a man who was a murderer.

40:48Karen Kilgariff:So we don't really give a fuck about whether he lives or dies. But I think to talk about that in a live show setting, people in the audience are cheering when hearing about like someone dying. And it just, the crowd will go crazy when they're talking about murders, either dying from natural causes in prison or being killed by execution. Like they just go unnecessarily wild and screaming. And it just doesn't feel appropriate.

41:12Georgia Hardstark:I would cheer about that guy dying. I kind of would too. I know it's a little weird. I think that's not that, that doesn't sound like an issue to me. It sounds more like an issue if the if they're talking about a victim and a victim's death or injuries or whatever it is and people are getting rowdy in the crowd reacting to that i think reacting to a horrible murder dying is like fine yeah i guess if it's when it comes to larry singleton who

41:39Karen Kilgariff:chopped a woman's arms off yeah like you're a monster so you actually do deserve to die that's a good point another thing that they get criticized a lot is about a lot of the catchphrases that they use during their episodes, a lot of what they say comes from a very privileged point of view. It's a very class and race privileged approach to speaking with law enforcement. And it actually can be very harmful to women that are Black, Indigenous, people of color. So they have this catchphrase on their show that they always say, saying, fuck politeness, which what they're basically meaning and intending to say is that if someone is making you uncomfortable, you shouldn't feel badly to just walk away from that situation.

42:18Karen Kilgariff:For example, if a man is following you and it's nighttime and you feel uncomfortable, it's not rude. And he starts approaching you. You don't need to be polite to this man. You can run away. You can ask him to step away. Fuck politeness. I guess, yes, in and of itself, I understand the sentiment. But fuck politeness always also carries a very different weight if you're not a white woman. And Black Indigenous people of color folks would read this more, would read this as aggressive, not just a little rude, because it could actually endanger them more. You know, for someone who, if a white woman says, you know, get the fuck away from me to a person that's actually harmless, that's very different than if a black woman were to approach a harmless man saying, get the fuck away from me, because black women are categorized as angry or as not authoritative.

43:05Karen Kilgariff:It's just it speaks a very different tone when you're talking about a white woman versus a black woman. And they also have this other catchphrase called same with pepper spray first, apologize later. That's legally and physically a huge risk for a black woman to pepper spray someone than if Sophie and I were to pepper spray someone. It's just the advice is framed as like universal female solidarity when in fact you're only catering to women who are actually the safest person in the rooms. It's kind of like what we talk about with Giggly Squad. They talk about feminism a lot, but it's like, no, this is like white feminism.

43:37Karen Kilgariff:This is like privilege feminism. Do you know what I mean?

43:39Georgia Hardstark:Yeah, I think with the fuck politeness thing, like I get maybe it's because I just saw a TikTok about how there was a woman who was really like creeped out by a guy in a parking garage. She was like walking in a parking garage and she was like, oh, like, why is there a guy like following me? I got really scared and I, you know, was so nervous about hurting his feelings that I just didn't say anything, even though I was really terrified in the moment. And he really was just parked near here near her. So it ended up being something totally innocuous. But then a week later, she it was reported that a woman was murdered in that parking garage.

44:12Georgia Hardstark:So she was like, do not be scared to, like, make someone uncomfortable if you are uncomfortable, if that makes sense. Like to be like, hey, stop following me. Are you following me? Like, but I understand the the different layers to that. Right. Like if you are not a white woman, you could be endangering yourself more by acting, quote unquote, aggressively. yeah um it's it's complicated i feel like there are so many different i i see tiktoks all the time i'm i'm on like self-defense tiktok for some reason yeah about the different ways that you can um protect yourself when you're alone as a woman unfortunately that's something that we have to think about as women um but i think that fuck politeness is not like the worst advice but i again i understand like the different layers to it yeah i think the fuck politeness is less of an

45:01Karen Kilgariff:issue than the pepper spray first, apologize later. I think pepper spraying is assaulting someone. So if a black woman were to pepper spray anyone, law enforcement will be far less likely to believe that black woman as if they were acting in self-defense than if a white woman were to pepper spray someone.

45:17Georgia Hardstark:Yeah, no, I don't think that's good advice to pepper spray first. No, I think if obviously if you're in danger in a bad situation, then yes, absolutely pepper spray. But And I don't think that that's something that you should leniently, you know.

45:30Karen Kilgariff:Advise. Advise. Yeah. Yeah, that's a pretty big, isn't it? That's assault. That's battery and assault. So also a lot of their stories, as I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, it skews a lot towards white women. So they largely skip over like BIPOC cases. And I think this is why Crime Junkie was such a refreshing listen for a lot of people. And listen, I know Crime Junkie has a whole slew of issues as well. But what I'm just saying is from my recollection, from my experience listening to both, I like how Crime Junkie has done a really, really good job of covering and highlighting so many stories across different socioeconomic backgrounds, different demographics.

46:06Karen Kilgariff:I recall one week they did a whole MMI week, which is missing and murdered indigenous people, talking about stories that you never hear about on the news, primarily like in Alaska, for example, where there's a lot of indigenous folks living there. We never hear about these stories, but we hear about the stories of Gabby Petito all the time. And I'm not saying Gabby Petito's life is less valuable than an MMI person. But at the same time, we don't even know these MMI names. And I like that Crime Junkie has done a good job of highlighting everyone. And I think that's something that My Favorite Murderer didn't really do.

46:38Karen Kilgariff:And I think another thing that My Favorite Murderer kind of does, which is seen as a little bit suspect, is they have a high degree of trust in the competence and good intention of cops. and I think a lot of the time...

46:53Georgia Hardstark:And that's a privileged point of view.

46:55Karen Kilgariff:Exactly. Because I think when you hear from Black people's perspectives, they are taught from a young age you cannot trust the cops all the time. If you're getting pulled over, it's a very different mannerism in which you speak to cops than it would be for Sophie and I if we were to get pulled over, right? They just look at it critically with a very different lens and I think that My Favorite Murder fails to recognize that. You can't just implicitly trust your policemen. You should be able to. And I think that the conversation is, you know, it's changing and evolving, which is great. But it's that's not the expectation that we should all have of our cops.

47:31Karen Kilgariff:And it even praises like all detectives while shying away from a lot of corruption. For instance, the Golden State Killer. Are you familiar with that case, Sophie? Yeah, of course.

47:40Georgia Hardstark:Yeah.

47:41Karen Kilgariff:Did you read the book? Yes. I'll be gone in the dark. Oh, my God. It's such a good book. The Golden State Killer, who was a prolific serial killer and rapist, was actually a cop in the Sacramento area. So you can't always trust cops, but they failed to kind of mention that a lot in their episodes.

47:56Georgia Hardstark:And I feel like there's more often than not, it feels like, that detectives totally botch cases all the time. I remember the case that we just covered on the Patreon. on Kim Moreau. The disappearance of Kim Moreau was totally botched by police and detectives. And cops are very, very, very frequently cops and detectives and investigators love when they get the job done. But very often they are completely incompetent, unfortunately. Yeah. And I think that, you know,

48:26Karen Kilgariff:at the same time, too, it's like I feel like they also don't have great resources to get it done either. It's a mix of incompetency, not having enough resources. Let's just this is why I don't blame people that hire private investigators. At the end of the day, I'll pay you money to help. Yeah. Obviously, this is a very privileged thing to say. I don't have all the money in the world. If I were given that position, I would want I would rather it be handled privately just because you have more resources to it. But in any case, yeah.

48:49Georgia Hardstark:Also, like, look at the Nancy Guthrie case. Totally botched. Yeah. Completely. Like that is. Yeah. Yeah, it's just, yeah, there's absolutely no reason to trust, you know, investigators, honestly. Yeah, implicitly. Because they usually fuck it up.

49:07Karen Kilgariff:Right. And another thing that people get frustrated is the show largely covers white women's cases. And it creates the impression that white women are the typical victims of violent crime and exaggerates how likely any listener is to be murdered. and like actual homicide victimization in the U.S. skews heavily male and heavily toward Black and Indigenous communities. So again, you spotlight as if white women are typically the target of the crime just based on the statistics of the people you cover, when in fact, the likelihood of a white woman being murdered is less likely than against like a Black and Indigenous person.

49:40Georgia Hardstark:It's kind of like the, we talk about this with Lauren Spear, or we have talked about this, And the Lauren Spear case, there was another woman who disappeared from Bloomington, Indiana around the same time that Lauren Spear had named, I believe, Crystal Grubb. And Lauren's disappearance completely overshadowed hers because Lauren was a blonde white woman. And Crystal was black. Yep.

50:04Karen Kilgariff:I mean, it's when was the last time anyone turned on their TV or on their TikTok and you saw a black person's case being I mean, I guess it's more often now. But if I think even 10 years ago, it wasn't nearly as often. And that's just a problem.

50:18Georgia Hardstark:Yeah, it's why it's an example of white woman syndrome is what they call it.

50:22Karen Kilgariff:Yep.

50:23Georgia Hardstark:Missing white woman syndrome.

50:24Karen Kilgariff:Yep. Another thing that we were saying is the say sexy, don't get murdered. It feels victim blamey. So Karen and Georgia would typically, when they cover survivor stories, people that have been able to escape being murdered or raped or what have you, they usually praise survivors. And for whatever reason, it feels like, okay, but you're not praising the victims that unfortunately weren't able to get themselves out of this and were murdered. And it kind of implies that people are responsible for the violence inflicted against them as opposed to like people that by the grace of God were able to escape, which is highly unlikely if you're already put in that situation.

50:59Georgia Hardstark:Mm-hmm.

50:59Karen Kilgariff:Okay, so let's talk about their teepee gate, their teepee shirt, okay? So in 2017, they released a t-shirt for their podcast with a teepee printed on the front with the acronym SSDGM, Stay Sexy, Don't Get Murdered.

51:11Georgia Hardstark:God, I hate, I'm sorry, I hate that catchphrase so much.

51:15Karen Kilgariff:I know.

51:15Georgia Hardstark:It's like so obnoxious, inappropriate, victim-blaming. I just, I don't understand, like, why that even became a thing. I agree.

51:24Karen Kilgariff:I agree. And they, on the shirt is a teepee, which is a structure regarded by many as Native American tribes is sacred. And the girls were criticized for being culturally, for culturally appropriating indigenous communities. And especially, this is a very tone deaf shirt given the high murder rates for indigenous communities and women on reservations. and studies have found that murder rates for indigenous women living on reservations are 10 times higher than the national average and this is just makes this flippant shirt all the more confounding and concerning because putting a thoughtless quote of stay sexy don't get murder with a teepee is in and of itself inexcusable and even just the title so it has my favorite

52:12Georgia Hardstark:murder, which is obviously the title of the podcast, the TP, Stay Sexy, Don't Get Murdered. Like my favorite murder. I just I also can't get past that.

52:21Karen Kilgariff:I know. Yeah. The title of the show is very.

52:25Georgia Hardstark:God, I just I can't believe again, I just can't believe that like this was seen as politically correct for as long as it was. Right. Right. And the fact that no one was even questioning it until

52:38Karen Kilgariff:very recently, I feel like. Right. A 2019 study found that homicide was the third leading cause of death for Indigenous women in 2017, the same year that this shirt came out. So there was a lot of conversation surrounding the merchandise, pointing out how insensitive the imagery was, and others were defending it, saying, well, MFM is a murder podcast. What do you expect? So we often talk about on this podcast, it's not even the crime, it's the cover-up. And I feel like the cover-up was very bad. So Georgia and Karen vaguely addressed the teepee shirt situation and apologized for the situation, but it was really, it took a while for them to do so.

53:13Karen Kilgariff:They were radio silent for, I think, at least four to seven episodes before actually disclosing, like, and apologizing for the offense that this shirt created. And Georgia was accused of deleting comments about the situation on the MFM Instagram, and she even liked a pretty racist comment defending the t-shirt. People saw that she had liked the comment and then she had to apologize for liking the comment. And she appears to have liked a comment from another user who wrote, look, you uncultured dummies. If you think that the tent image belongs solely to Native Americans as a teepee, then you can just be pissed at yourself for being so ignorant.

53:52Karen Kilgariff:Which is like, oh my God. You listen to people when they're talking to you. Indigenous people are 10 times more likely to be murdered. And you now have a teepee which symbolizes Native American indigenous cultures with a print saying, my favorite murderer, stay sexy, don't get murdered. The irony is not lost on any of us, Georgia. And then for you to like a comment saying that everyone's making it a big deal, like, please. Right. So they had this huge Facebook group, like I mentioned at the beginning. Georgia was, I guess, addressing this through liking different comments. And she finally addressed it on the Facebook group saying, we originally approved the teepee.

54:27Karen Kilgariff:When we originally approved the teepee design, it somehow did not cross our minds that it is cultural appropriation. She also said, In a fit of misguided indignation, I quote-unquote liked an Instagram comment written by someone defending the teepee design. I immediately realized that this was stupid and I took it down, but I understand why seeing that upset people and added insult to injury. It was really a stupid move and I'm truly sorry for it. She goes on to say that we're disappointed in ourselves for not immediately recognizing that it was culturally inappropriate. We're sorry for that mistake and oversight.

54:58Karen Kilgariff:In an attempt to make up for it, we're donating$10 ,000 to the First Nations Development Institute, which is an organization that works to improve economic conditions for Native Americans through grants and advocacy. But people were even more pissed because even after all this apologizing on the Facebook group, the merch stayed up on the website for a couple of days.

55:18Georgia Hardstark:What were you doing for a couple of days? Like, what was the holdup? What was the delay?

55:22Karen Kilgariff:Can you imagine, Sophie? Like, I feel like you and I, we would be screaming at whomever was in charge of our website to take it down immediately. Like, I know what's well enough.

55:32Georgia Hardstark:Yeah, like, what's a higher priority than that, you know? Right. Like, if, yeah.

55:36Karen Kilgariff:You're saying something on Facebook, but you're failing to actually take it on the T-shirt that is incredibly offensive to so many people. Right.

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59:27Karen Kilgariff:This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro plans. So this is 2017, right? When this TPGate happens. Then a year later, probably less than a year later, they realize this Facebook group is getting out of control.

1:00:06Karen Kilgariff:So you couple this teepee incident with a Facebook group and there was this Facebook group had grown past 235 ,000 members and it was run by a bunch of unpaid volunteers, not by Karen, not by Georgia.

1:00:18Georgia Hardstark:What is it with these huge podcast Facebook groups? Because you said this reminds me of the Toast Facebook group. It also reminds me of the Giggly Squad Facebook group. Like they these podcast Facebook groups always completely spiral out of control with racist and horrible like politics and all of that. And then it's like, how is this even about a podcast to begin with when you guys are just posting like racist shit all the time?

1:00:44Karen Kilgariff:Yeah, I feel like before 2020, all of us were on Facebook groups because it breeded a sense of community. But you're right. When you have 200 ,000 people plus in this group saying whatever the fuck they want with unpaid volunteer. It's impossible to moderate. Yeah. It's a cause for just chaos. And I think people were really reasonably so sensitive after the teepee gate, and it didn't stop there. There were a lot of issues going on in the Facebook group. So despite complaints, Karen had persisted in calling any establishment of homeless people a, quote, hobo camp. Georgia admitted in August to using a European pronunciation of an Australian monolith instead of the aboriginal name simply because it was easier to pronounce.

1:01:28Karen Kilgariff:And she let everyone know that the police don't mean to coerce confessions. They just do, which is a very upsetting line to hear at a time when the issue was just so charged. And I think everything really took ahead on August 13th, 2018. A member posted a hometown crime story that described a black man in extremely racist terms. Do you want to read? Just read like, I am from Spokane.

1:01:52Georgia Hardstark:I am from Spokane, Washington. Is it Spokane or Spokane? Spokane. Everyone always yells at me when I mispronounce things, so I just want to make sure. Spokane, yeah. I'm from Spokane, and we associate with a few well-known killers like Robert Lee Yates and the Green River Killer. I'm going to tell you about a lesser-known murder. To make sense of why this murder matters to me, we have to go back about 15 or so years to when I was in eighth grade and had one of my first boyfriends. His name was Edmund Washington. He was black, and my mom used to make jokes about how fancy his name sounded and how big his lips were.

1:02:21Georgia Hardstark:I realize now that she was being ridiculously racist. In fact, she used to joke about how he was probably a criminal. Fast forward to 2008, Edmund and I had long moved on from each other and used to dating a girl named Jacqueline Wortham. Rumor has it that she was pregnant and that her father said she couldn't keep it, but I'm not sure how accurate that is. Anyway, on March 21st, 2008, both Edmund and his girlfriend waited at her father's house for five hours until he came home from work and they brutally murdered him with a wrench, a sword, and a baseball bat. He was sentenced to 22 years in prison.

1:02:48Georgia Hardstark:Guess my mom was right. Laugh emoji. What?

1:02:52Karen Kilgariff:No, this is, this not even is like subtly racist, it's blatantly racist.

1:02:57Georgia Hardstark:Blatantly?

1:02:58Karen Kilgariff:It's genuinely so disturbing of a comment. I'm upset that this person's name was redacted because I want to figure out who this monster is. And many people were astonished by this comment, reasonably so. So they started reposting it to the monitorators and they're like, dude, kick this person out. This person's crazy. And the entire group started, it was a shitstorm. It escalated so many, so fast. This person was not banned. the people that were asking for the mods to remove this person and remove this comment were banned for even saying something.

1:03:27Georgia Hardstark:This is so crazy how this always happens. Like, I know I just said that, but like, it's just, it's crazy. I wasn't familiar with this, but I'm familiar with the racist scandals in the Giggly Squad Facebook group. And like, what the fuck is wrong with people?

1:03:41Karen Kilgariff:They ended up banning 129 people before Karen and Georgia had to step in and they had to force the mods to resign. And you have to remember, Georgia used to talk about this Facebook group so longingly and lovingly. She would be like, when I have insomnia at night, I would turn on, look at the Facebook group and it helps me go to bed at night. Like it once was a very peaceful place, but it had just completely flipped. And the hosts really weren't doing anything about it. And they weren't really like saying anything publicly about how much of a shitstorm it was. So after this super racist comment, two episodes released immediately after and the girl said nothing about it.

1:04:13Karen Kilgariff:They ended up addressing it in late August. and let's see, because this was, so they ended up addressing it like a couple weeks later and they characterized it as being about, they characterized it as being one problematic post. They're like, listen, this was the beginning and the end of the Facebook group. They didn't even acknowledge like how deep and systemic like this comment was and what would even change about the community, the MFM community. They were just like, listen, this was really traumatic for us and we're just going to delete the Facebook group. They like failed to talk about why it was problematic.

1:04:44Georgia Hardstark:I and I also like get it partly that, you know, these Facebook groups were not moderated by them specifically. You know, like there were random moderators of this Facebook group. So it's not like entirely on them to, you know, control it. But your name is attached to it. So it kind of is. It's like such a murky territory, I guess, when you have a Facebook group that has your name on it. But like you're not in charge of it.

1:05:13Karen Kilgariff:Right. I know because it's like anything that you put with my favorite murder, people will associate it to you whether you like it or not. So you are responsible now for every single person in that group, whether you like it or not. That's just how it is because your name is tied to that.

1:05:27Georgia Hardstark:It's a reflection of you whether you like it or not. Yeah. So, yeah.

1:05:31Karen Kilgariff:And it's like they always say with great power comes great responsibility. This is a really good example. Your power and your voice has reached so many people. So now these people in your group are reflective of you, Karen and Georgia. Even though you have no idea who these people are, they are reflective of you and the community that you've built. So now you have a responsibility to tell everyone that you don't espouse these beliefs and that you kicked this person out expeditiously. But they failed to do so. And it took two episodes for them to address it, which is unfortunate. So in 2018, this is when the Golden State Killer, I don't even want to say his fucking name.

1:06:06Karen Kilgariff:He was arrested in April this year. And it was announced at a news conference in Sacramento. know. And the Golden State Killer had been a recurring subject on the show. And I remember, like, I do want to credit a little bit to My Favorite Murder for helping this monster be in prison because they kind of revived the story. This man had been, quote unquote, in retirement for murder for years at this point. But they would talk about longingly this author. Her name was Michelle McNamara. She was a young woman who wrote this book called All Be Gone in the Dark, covering the Golden State Killer. And unfortunately, Michelle McNamara passed prior to Joseph D 'Angelo being captured.

1:06:43Karen Kilgariff:But her book was a large reason why this case was revived and the reason why Karen and Georgia would talk about this so much, this case.

1:06:51Georgia Hardstark:Yeah, and Patton Oswalt is her widow. Widower, sorry.

1:06:56Karen Kilgariff:Right, right, right.

1:06:57Georgia Hardstark:Who helps finish the book after she passed. It's a really incredible book if you haven't read it.

1:07:02Karen Kilgariff:It's amazing. And Karen and Georgia were close with Patton Oswalt and they would talk about him and Michelle and the website that Michelle would maintain about the Golden State Killer. And, you know, I do want to credit them that they really helped get this fucking guy in jail. But when this press conference happened, when the monster was put in incarcerated, a fan said that she actually got into the press-only conference by telling someone that she was with SSDGM. And she ended up tweeting from the inside and she was freaking out because she was wearing her murderino shirt while everyone was dressed super nicely for this press conference.

1:07:34Karen Kilgariff:and she was trying to look all casual because everyone was staring at her because she was clearly underdressed. She wasn't part of press. The host then went on to admire the fan for this. They asked whether she made fake press credentials or did she just walk in confidently? Like, how did you get into this press-only conference? And the fan said, listen, I just had a hat that said press on it. And Karen and Georgia were like, nailed it. And why this is so upsetting is like a press conference about a serial rapist and murderer that's intended to only be attended by investigators and in some cases victims family this isn't like comic con or like crime con this is a serious place where press needs to be involved victims families need to be involved but you're having someone of your own community sneak in yeah it just felt very rather than saying please don't do this don't just walk into like a very professional event they were giving it a shout out.

1:08:28Karen Kilgariff:And it just felt very insensitive on behalf of all the victims' families.

1:08:31Georgia Hardstark:Insensitive and inappropriate. And I feel like this is such a good example of, and I'm thinking of this because there was something that we said at one point where a comment said, wow, true crime brain rot. I can't remember what it was, but they were saying that we had true crime brain rot. And that's why I say that we are not perfect. There are definitely moments where we, you know, our fascination with true crime probably veers into, you know, also inappropriate territory sometimes. Sure. We have true crime brain rot from being obsessed with true crime and being, you know, online for this long.

1:09:04Georgia Hardstark:Yeah. But I think to take it to an IRL press conference is like so a level of true crime brain rot that I can't even wrap my head around.

1:09:16Karen Kilgariff:I completely agree. I couldn't ever imagine Sophie saying, hey, I'm going to try and sneak into this press junket for this specific true crime case where the murderer has now been locked away. Let's just see if I can get in. I would never encourage that. I'm like, dude, no. Like, just stop. I don't know. I couldn't see us encouraging that, let alone to your millions of audience members. Right. It's just it's not appropriate. No. Okay. Agreed. So it doesn't really stop there. Two last things I'll say is that there are these things called CSA dolls. I think it's Child sexual abuse. Yeah. Child sexual abuse dolls.

1:09:57Karen Kilgariff:And these have been used in cases where an adult will ask a child, can you show me where this person touched you inappropriately? Like, show us on the doll. Yeah. So in 2019, Georgia had been gifted these dolls that she thought had been quote-unquote vintage and used during the satanic panic by a fan that attended, I think, one of their live shows. And she posted pics with these dolls and was really gleeful about it. So this is what the caption read with her and Karen with the CSA dolls. Quote, I'm a sick, sick person. When a lovely hashtag murderino named Amanda presented me with these original 1980s and anatomically correct, show me on the doll where the bad man touched you dolls, I almost started crying with glee.

1:10:40Karen Kilgariff:These are up there with the dairy drug kits we've been gifted. I love old, awful things. But it's like, Georgia, these were used in child sex abuse cases. Obviously, this drew heavy backlash. And she later had to apologize and donate. And she had to apologize for the post in response. And in response, she donated to the Joyful Heart Foundation, which is a charity dedicated to educating and advocating against child abuse. And on Reddit, people were really divided about how to approach Georgia with this or like, Should we be upset? Should we not? So someone with a username that's since been deleted said, I'm a child rape survivor, and I think these are relics people need to see and talk about.

1:11:18Karen Kilgariff:It's okay to receive something of historical value and be excited about it, while at the same time acknowledging the circumstances of its use if they're less than happy. This post does both. Sure, you can nitpick wording, but really, I'm going to venture that people losing their minds over this post are mostly people invented on our behalf. And someone by the username NYTerrorBJJ says, I think the post was in somewhat poor taste. So I think it's probably a good thing she took it down. A lot of people have trauma relating to these kinds of dolls. So it could be triggering for some people, for some of them, or make them feel like she was making fun of them.

1:11:52Karen Kilgariff:Personally, I was fine with it, but I can see why it would make some people uncomfortable. I think it's more the caption for me when she's like, I love old awful things.

1:12:01Georgia Hardstark:Yeah, and she said, I almost cried with glee. You shouldn't be crying with glee. If you were like, wow, this is a very important artifact and we need to preserve and talk about these things. Yeah. You're not like gleeful about it. Crying with glee, right. You're respectful about it. Yeah.

1:12:16Karen Kilgariff:I didn't even know that these CSA dolls existed. So I think that's a really appropriate way to ask a child in a way that doesn't feel as scary versus like pointing to a human anatomical body part. Here's a doll. Show me where the bad man touched you. Like, I guess that I didn't know about that. So that's educating me. But to put it in this Instagram post, it just feels very shoddy and really gross.

1:12:36Georgia Hardstark:Yeah. And I think that like overall their scandals are, like you said, like they have been on the Internet and podcasting for so long. Of course, they are going to have some foot and mouth moments. And obviously there's there's an element of racism to some of these controversies, too. I think that so much of this has to do with and this is like the crux of their entire show. My favorite murder, stay sexy, don't get murdered. It is like trivializing real violence, which comes from a place of such privilege that you have never experienced that kind of violence. You don't know anyone that's experienced that kind of violence.

1:13:13Georgia Hardstark:Bingo. So and it's just yeah, it's it's like I said, thank you to the person who called us out for our true crime brain rot because now I have that phrase in my repertoire. It is such a level of true crime brain rot that is like astonishing. And this is like a perfect example of this.

1:13:31Karen Kilgariff:Yeah. Yeah. It's I think that when you have a podcast that covers true crime and you have the audience that Karen and Georgia have, you have a responsibility to talk about these subjects with care. And I'm hoping, you know, after having done this for 10 years, them having done this for 10 years, they learned, they have learned now. And they talk about these things far more delicately than they did in the early beginnings of the show.

1:13:54Georgia Hardstark:I'm curious if there are any Murderino baby snarks. Has their tone changed? Let us know. I'm very curious because I obviously have not listened in like a decade.

1:14:06Karen Kilgariff:I know. You know, what I will say is, like, when I did listen to them, I did feel like they advocated for human rights in a way that I felt was, it was good. I didn't think they were ever doing much harm. But, like, after reading these things and, like, actually deconstructing it, I'm like, I can see how these things are very, why they trigger a lot of people. But I don't want to say that they're horrible people necessarily. Like, I remember listening to them and feeling like, wow, they really are advocates for people that don't really necessarily have a voice. They 100 % had missteps. I don't think that's 100 % of who they are.

1:14:42Karen Kilgariff:Like, people are multifaceted. They can make mistakes. I'm not saying they're horrible people. I just think that with the audience that they've had, they have a responsibility and a diligence to just do a little bit better. Totally.

1:14:55Georgia Hardstark:So. Yeah. Yeah. I would agree with that. I don't think that they're bad people by any means. I think that, you know, if you have been podcasting for as long as they have, it is normal to have some, wow, I wish I didn't say that, foot in mouth moments. But, yeah, I think that just the entire, like I said, the entire thesis of their show is problematic in and of itself. And I guess if that's something that their listeners have squared away with, that they have accepted about themselves, clearly, you know, lots and lots of people are okay with that. then right sure it's like I I feel like for me it's the entire thesis of the show that feels icky like we said at the top like true crime comedy is a genre that shouldn't exist in my opinion but uh yeah I mean that's what I feel like it comes down to is that their entire show to me is problematic but I don't I don't think that they're like horrible people I think it's just they found a genre that they thought was fun and a lot of people find fun and interesting like I said, we live in a in a world where millions and millions of women like Christy and myself have become fascinated with true crime.

1:16:04Georgia Hardstark:I don't know how it happened to millennial women, but it did. And they have really cashed in on that. And yeah, I don't know. I'm curious what you guys think. If you are a murderino baby snark, let us know. I'm very curious.

1:16:18Karen Kilgariff:Yeah, I'm genuinely curious to see if their tune has changed at all. Because again, it's been years since Sophie and I have less than close to like five, six years at this point. So yeah, interested in what you guys have to say. Yesterday on the Patreon, we talked about Tila Tequila. Yes, we're actually about to record

1:16:35Georgia Hardstark:that right after this. So I am very excited to walk Christy through the life and lore of Tila Tequila. Speaking of millennial women, a real throwback for those of us who grew up with watching A Shot at Love. Oh my gosh, hilarious. And yeah, that is linked in our show notes or Patreon per usual. We have our newsletter that goes out every Friday with stuff that we're watching, stuff that we're wearing, stuff that we're laughing at, et cetera. Also linked in our show notes. And yeah, we will see you next Dark Energy Tuesday.

1:17:15Karen Kilgariff:Yeah, see you guys on Tuesday. Bye.

1:17:17Georgia Hardstark:Bye.

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1:21:00Karen Kilgariff:Some folks say I'm the best. ABC Tuesdays, TV's hottest PI is back. You sure you're ready to take on a serial killer? It's like a dozen more likely explanations other than serial killer. All right, maybe not a dozen. In Florida, crime has no off-season.

1:21:17Georgia Hardstark:I just heard you were shot at today with a rocket launcher.

1:21:21Karen Kilgariff:Well missed. R.J. Decker, Tuesdays, 10, 9 central on ABC. Next day on Hulu.