Gaten Matarazzo Loves Pizza

2 Apr 2026 · 1 h 16 min · 25 chapters

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In short

Caleb and guest Gaten Matarazzo talk about making the Hulu pizza-movie “Montgomery” (including a hot, intense first-day makeup/costume experience), why Gaten chose the project after Stranger Things, and how fame/attention has changed his life—especially handling strangers asking for photos and setting boundaries.

Guest backgrounds

Gaten Matarazzo is 23 and booked Stranger Things at age 12. He finished filming the final season in December 2024; “Montgomery” began shooting June 2025. He’s known for being professional on set (on time, knows lines) and for discussing safety and boundaries for young performers.

Key claims

He hated the forced downtime after Stranger Things and was “antsy” until “Pizza Movie” came through. He chose the film for “right place, right time” and low-pressure fun, with high challenge. He rejects visibility-for-its-own-sake and says cultural pressure can seep into his thoughts. He rarely says no to photos, but sets boundaries when cornered (especially in bathrooms) or when chased.

Notable examples

the trailer’s “heads exploding” sequence; filming in a no-AC hot warehouse; being cursed at for refusing a photo at a convention; getting shoulder-tapped at a urinal; Kansas City interactions being respectful; his “So True” pick: Zemeckis’ A Christmas Carol (Jim Carrey, Robin Wright, Gary Oldman).

Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.

Chapters

Tap a time to open that second in VO

Behind the Scenes of Pizza Movie

1:02 to 3:08

Caleb and Gaten discuss their experiences filming a movie together.

“Something happened at South By, did it not?”

The Challenges of Filming

3:08 to 5:54

Gaten shares the challenges and stresses of making his new film.

“And so I was in such a I mean, I wasn't I was trying to show it, but I was in such a bad mood.”

Choosing Roles After Stranger Things

5:54 to 10:10

Gaten explains his choice to transition from Stranger Things to a new film.

“I think it became a thing where we knew if we were going to try to go, for as broad of a reach of like, let's see if we can get as many people to enjoy this as we can.”

Reflections on Career and Life Goals

10:10 to 14:01

Gaten discusses his aspirations and reflections on life after the show.

“The head exploding sequence when I read it, oh shit, it spoiled.”

Navigating Fame and Identity

14:01 to 18:11

Explore how early fame impacts personal identity and career goals.

“It's a weird situation to jump into my 20s now.”

The Pressure of Visibility

18:11 to 22:32

Discuss the societal pressures of fame and the desire for visibility.

“or even careers that are involved when people become famous through them.”

Growing Up Fast in the Spotlight

22:32 to 23:49

Understand the challenges of maturing quickly in the entertainment industry.

“You're super polite and nice to everybody.”

Normalizing the Abnormal

23:49 to 28:00

Investigate how abnormal experiences can become normalized in childhood.

“that just do not have your best interest at heart and to develop the skills and tools to recognize what that looks like and to let that hurt your feelings because that's a good thing and then move on from those people.”

Navigating Fame and Boundaries

28:00 to 33:00

Explore the challenges of fame, personal boundaries, and public interactions.

Navigating Fame and Boundaries

33:08 to 34:13

Explore the challenges of fame, personal boundaries, and public interactions.

Show all 25 chapters

Navigating Fame and Boundaries

35:21 to 37:08

Explore the challenges of fame, personal boundaries, and public interactions.

“use offer code so true to save 10 % off your first purchase of a website or domain.”

Experiencing Fame and Its Impact

37:19 to 42:00

Discuss the varying experiences of fame and how public perception influences interactions.

“Well, but again, though, that to me is an illustration of that thing of like this is, again, someone who has not experienced that level, a level of attention at scale that we might call fame.”

Understanding Audience Connections

42:00 to 43:30

Explore how public figures perceive audience interactions based on their roles.

“Like, if they love me from Z-Way, they want me to be kind of mean to them.”

The Terrifying Nature of Christmas Carol

43:30 to 45:30

Discuss the haunting themes of Zemeckis' Christmas Carol and its impact on viewers.

“Dude, I have to tell you, do not feel any way about it.”

Analyzing Zemeckis' Animation Style

45:45 to 47:40

Delve into the animation choices in Zemeckis' Christmas Carol and their effectiveness.

“Jim Carrey plays Scrooge and all three ghosts.”

Star Wars Viewing Order Discussion

47:40 to 49:50

Unpack the preferred viewing order for Star Wars films according to fans.

“It's just like the most like fun space adventure vibe.”

Reactions to Spoiling Historical Events

49:50 to 52:20

Explore the complexities of discussing historical narratives in modern media.

“How do you think that that family would like just...”

The Intersection of Faith and Loss

52:20 to 55:50

Discuss the influence of personal loss on faith and family dynamics.

“I'm pretty pessimistic about this thing.”

The Importance of Understanding Family History

55:50 to 56:00

Learn the value of engaging with family histories to deepen connections.

“This is why we're not connecting on this.”

Exploring Upbringing and Family Dynamics

56:00 to 57:28

The hosts discuss contrasting family backgrounds and how they shape perspectives on life and parenthood.

Optimism and the Decision to Have Children

57:29 to 1:01:16

A conversation about the complexities and optimistic outlook required for considering parenthood in today's world.

“Do you feel generally happy and optimistic about the world?”

Finding Happiness in Work and Relationships

1:01:17 to 1:06:06

Hosts reflect on sources of happiness, balancing work with personal relationships and how it affects their well-being.

“I would like that to be normalized Optimism?”

True or False Game Segment

1:06:07 to 1:10:01

The hosts play a fun true or false game with various statements to engage and amuse the audience.

“it was the first time I've been around long enough now and made enough things that, just barely, that I ran into people I knew from past projects.”

Cheezosaurus Rex and Nostalgia

1:10:01 to 1:12:42

Explore the history and significance of Cheezosaurus Rex in pop culture.

“Anakin Skywalker's mother's name is Shmi.”

Promoting Pizza Movie

1:12:42 to 1:13:08

Gaten and Caleb discuss their involvement in 'Pizza Movie' and encourage viewers to watch.

“Fully his film and they allowed me to show up for a couple days.”
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Transcript

Automatic transcript. May contain errors.

0:00Sierra has all the best active and outdoor brands you need. From athletic stuff, like a full-court pickup game, swish, to athletic-ish stuff, like a half-mile stroll. Get those steps in! And from morning hikes up the mountain trail, good pace, to nighttime ghost stories from the camping chair. What a twist! Whatever level of active, Sierra loves it all. Head to Sierra or Sierra.com for the brands you want at the prices that let you do it all. From athletic to athletic-ish, Sierra's got it.

0:33I also don't want to discount or imply that I am like rolling my eyes or scoffing at people who are very intensely faithful or spiritual no because their money is green still stream pizza movie yeah please please if you're a devout catholic still stream pizza movie I'm not rolling my eyes at you. For sure.

0:58Today's episode is presented by Intuit TurboTex. Now this is Texas. Keaton, how's it going? It's doing very well, Caleb. How are you? Dude, I'm so glad you're here. Me too. This is a delight to me. This is a delight to me as well. How did this come about? Something happened at South By, did it not? I think so. Oh, it was Billy. It was Billy. We were sitting in the hotel and Billy goes, Caleb, you have to have Gaten on your podcast. I said, Billy, we'll sort this. I wanted to be clear. He brought it up. The way he brought it up, it seemed like it was such an awkward way of bringing it up because it seemed very much like I was like, will you say something?

1:42Can you please stand up for me? Stand up for me. I swear I didn't, but it seemed like the way he said, he was like, oh, Caleb, you should have a... You should have been on the podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The thing where you're like... It's kind of like when you were a kid and you wanted to ask to sleep over at a friend's house and you'd be like, my mom's not going to go for it unless you ask. Yeah, yeah. You'd be like, what if Caden stayed over tonight? Do you guys think... I was so embarrassed. I was like, you blew up my spot for no reason. I didn't even say anything. Not at all. No, I'm thrilled to have you here.

2:08Me too. I'm glad to be here. I'm so glad we met making pizza movies. Yes, indeed. For Hulu. For Hulu, indeed. And that weird little hot warehouse on your first day. Weird little hot warehouse. I showed up. I had such a funny experience meeting you for that because I filmed my HBO special the night before. Went out, like celebrated with everyone. You're a trooper for doing that. Filming a special is like a fucking crazy undertaking. I had also thrown, not thrown my back out, but like I'd gone for a really long bike ride the day before filming the special. Oh. Because I wanted to like move and feel like get some stress out and I hurt my back really fucking bad.

2:43Where was it? Where would you? It was in Chicago. Oh, cool. I filmed in Chicago at like a DIY music venue that we like turned into a venue. Katie Birmingham, who designed this set, designed this like black box DIY venue to make it look so cute. But then I filmed the special with a really fucking hurt back. And then the next morning at like 7 a.m. I had to fly to Syracuse and get off the plane and come straight to you and start filming this fucking movie. And so I was in such a I mean, I wasn't I was trying to show it, but I was in such a bad mood. because i got there they hadn't told me this comes out after the movie comes out the movie comes out tomorrow okay so i won't spoil i won't spoil anything that's very nice okay comes out tomorrow from this episode okay not okay um we but i got there and had to get into this crazy get up that i wasn't aware i was going to be wearing i felt so bad when i found out when i found out you didn't know i had my heart sank into my stomach i was like i just felt terrible because I knew you were coming back from the special.

3:40Everyone was making a whole deal of it. Everyone was talking about how excited we were about you coming by, especially under the circumstances. And my first question to Nick and Brian was, what's Caleb's first scene? And then they told me, I was like, he's going to be so pissed. And I was not pissed. I was just like, I was tired and confused. And when you guys see the movie, you'll understand what I had to do. But day one, they were like, yeah, it's a really intense makeup that we need to do. and then we got to get you in this crazy hot costume in this warehouse in the summer with no AC. And I was like, I'm usually very like on set.

4:16I'm usually very like trying to play music and keep the energy up. And when they started putting the costume on me, I was like, all right, let's get this quick. So Nick and Brian was like, let's get this shot. Let's get the image that we need. Wasn't there an established time frame in which you had to be in and out of the costume because it was so hot? They were very kind to do that. They were very kind to do that. Yeah, they were being very, very sweet because that was the only thing I had to do that day, thank God. And they were very sweet to be like, hey, it's really hot, we should do this quick.

4:45Yeah. Which was nice. Which is nice. But it was so fun making that movie. It was so much fun making that movie. Do you love it? I had a blast. Oh, it was great. I loved seeing it. The first time I saw it was at South By when we were all seeing it together, which was really, really exciting. And I was stoked for it. I think for a while, Nick and Brian know this. I feel comfy saying this, is that I was terrified of it. Like during the filming process and then during the edit, after hearing how things were just developing and it's their future debut. And so they would update me very, very consistently on what the ins and outs were looking like when it came to just getting the trailer figured out and even working out what the title was going to be and why it ended up being named what it is.

5:24And that was a weird thing to be in the loop of, which I hadn't been used to. So that was a little bit more high stress and I felt really good once we saw it. I feel like it was, it felt like chaos right up until everything worked out. Because they were still editing things like two days before it was going to be in the theater at the festival. Yeah. They were still working out little, I think, like probably audio things more than anything. But so that it was pretty stressful hearing about it. But I was choked with the way it came out. It's really, I think it's so fucking dumb and funny. I think it's really dumb and funny.

5:58I think it's so fun. I think it was a lot of fun to make. Yeah. I remember I said, because there's so many swings involved in the movie specifically, that one thing that was really fun to come to terms with over the course of making it was that if it's going to be as successful as this movie, if this type of movie is going to work, it's always going to be for a very specific type of person who enjoys these types of movies. And that's a success story as a whole. I think it became a thing where we knew if we were going to try to go, for as broad of a reach of like, let's see if we can get as many people to enjoy this as we can.

6:36It probably will not be a very good movie. Right. We have to just kind of be very assured in, in this, in the type of movie that we're making. And I think that it's better off for it. I think this was a really interesting choice for you. And I wanted to ask you about, cause you and I have not gotten to talk about this actually, but like you're coming off of obviously this, uh, little known indie show called stranger things that most people haven't seen or heard of. but you're in this interesting position where now you're like making to me it's a really interesting choice for you as an actor to come off of something like Stranger Things and go do a movie like this why did you do this movie what was the reasoning it was a lot of right place right time and I'd finished filming the last season of the show in December of 2024 and this movie shot in June of 2025 is when we started filming and we shot, was that like through the whole summer pretty much?

7:30Yeah. I'm trying to remember when we wrapped, but we shot in the summer of 2025 and I remembered that the early months of 2025 being, the whole thing that everybody around me was talking about was to relax as much as possible and to just like let it sit and reflect on the year that it took to make the show and hear about the edit and stuff and just enjoy some time off. And I just, I hated it. I hated the time off. I'm not kidding. I did it and I fucking hated it. I hated not doing anything. And there was a conversation that came where I was begging, like, please, please, please let me. My managers and my parents and my family, my friends, I remember saying, I'm like, I just want to jump back into something because I just felt so antsy and I didn't know what to do with spare time.

8:24Well, you've said your biggest fear is solitude. Yeah. This is like a thing about you. This is actually a thing. I just don't enjoy it. And this is the first time my girlfriend was filming her show. So she was in Vancouver and I was in the city in my apartment without a job actively happening. Yeah. Didn't know what to do. Yeah. I mean, it's probably a valuable lesson. I'm like, I would like to learn how to, you know, go about a day-to-day life without necessarily having a deadline or having anything to kind of dive into work-wise. that's probably a healthy thing to try to figure out. But I did not feel good doing it.

8:59And so I remember I was just begging. I was like, please, can I just jump into something? Please, whatever comes through, let me jump into it. And they were like, no, take your time, please wait. And so I just let it simmer until Pizza Movie came through. And I was still taping and auditioning for things. And they were like, okay, do something if it feels like you have to do it. And that's kind of weirdly what this felt like because it was something that came up. and I've always said, no, I have to be okay with, if I read something and I'm like, okay, I will never be able to do something like this again if I pass on this.

9:33And if I'm okay with that, great. But I have to be aware. Because there are some things that come through. I'm like, I saw this last week. And that's fine. Something like this or something that I think is adjacent to an experience like this will come through again so I can hold off. It's like a type of thing that's going to continue to come up. Right, sure, sure, sure. And this one was, I had to say, okay, I know I will never do anything like this ever again if I pass on this. And for some reason, I just wasn't really okay with that. I don't know why. I just saw it and I was like, yeah, I really just, I was like, so let's do the tape.

10:06And then I met Nick and Brian over the phone after taping. You taped for it? Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah, I taped for Montgomery. Yes, I do know this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I taped for Montgomery. summary i think they had a very different idea of what jack was going to be which made sense they had a really good i think idea of what jack was originally supposed to be and i think they wanted the one thing that came through by the time they were finishing up the casting process was sean and gaten look identical to each other the whole thing is that it's like a dynamic duo comedy buddy comedy and there's usually like a contrast and like a crazy like look difference that like kind of sets them apart and sean and i are in for the same things constantly we look we just yeah two short curly haired Italian boys and it's like the funniest thing for us to play polar opposites but that's kind of what they loved about it so we were both in for Montgomery and he had been attached to Montgomery for a long time and they were just like exploring the world of it and then I was like can I just try Jack and they're like fine and then I went in for the chem read and yeah that so on and so forth and then it kind of just fell into place but it was just just felt like summer camp instantly and that's kind of why I became obsessed with it.

11:15Yeah. It just felt, yeah. The head exploding sequence when I read it, oh shit, it spoiled. That's fine. It's in the trailer. That's fine. It's in the trailer. It's in the trailer. Don't worry about that. It's in the trailer. We're fine. We're good. We're good. That's the trailer. The heads explode. Just watch the fucking movie. The heads exploding in the trailer so you're fine. That's weirdly what sold me because on, weirdly enough, I can't go into it yet. Yeah. Just know that there were things that was thinking about the heads exploding. There were things, Yeah, I just was obsessed with the idea of spending the summer doing something as insane as that.

11:50Yeah. And I knew it was just going to be a blast. And I just wanted to do something really, really fun. And low pressure in the sense of just doing something for the sake of making something fun and having fun doing it. And yeah, I think it was a good weird middle ground of this is going to be very challenging. But also scratching the itch that I had at the time. How old are you right now? I'm 23. You're 23. And when did you start Stranger Things? I was 12 when I booked the show. Christ. Okay. So that's fucking insane.

12:24Okay. I can deal with that. Hold on. I can deal with that. I mean, that's such an interesting position to be in. Chance and I were talking before the episode, actually, that I feel like the only, and I could be wrong, maybe in the entire history of the show, someone will correct me in the comments, but I feel like the only other person we've had on the show that has experienced that kind of thing was Kieran and Shipka. Oh, for sure. I know Kiernan. He was great. Isn't she the best? Awesome. She is so fun. She's so fun. I love that girl. Yeah, she's great. I miss her. We got to do a movie together a couple years ago.

12:52And I, yeah, she's coming. I think Sweethearts is awesome. Sweethearts? It's great. Oh, it's fun. I saw it at Savannah when they showed it for, I think it was like the SCAD film festival. I was there. Me and Caleb drove down, Caleb McLaughlin drove down from Atlanta because Caleb's sister was there at the time. And so we all met up and saw it there. It was great. It is so fun. It's so fun. It really, Sweethearts asked the question, can this very visibly 30-year-old man play a high school student? And we answered it with my character, and the answer was, not really. No, not really. That's so funny.

13:29It's the Lord's work, though. We need to start accepting that as a universal rule. Sometimes teenagers are 30. Sometimes teenagers are 30. I mean, for years, teenagers have been 30 in movies. sometimes 30 year olds need money and enjoyed reading a script I actually turned that when they asked me to come in for that I said no because I was like let's all just get real for a second I'm not playing an 18 year old in any universe there's not enough prosthetics there's not enough and then thank god Jordan got a hold of my team and was like why didn't he come in for this because normally when you pass they're just like cool but thank god Jordan pressed on it and was like we really do want to see you for this and I really really love that movie but Kiernan is the fucking best I love her so much but you've had this weird experience where you were on this huge show when you were like 12 years old 13 years old and now you're out of that that show has ended what do you want like what's the big goal oh man come on i don't necessarily mean in work by the way i mean your life i mean what do you want for your life oh man that's a that's a very fun question i think what's interesting about the process of making stranger things was that it accelerated a lot of or at least it brought questions that people usually have as they're entering their 20s of like what would you think your career is going to be or what would you like your day-to-day to look like what are what's like a five-year plan and those questions had kind of been answered at 13 where we knew what the five to ten-year plan was going to be i'm gonna burp into the mic that's why i'm not talking quickly

15:03I had those little Starbucks egg bites that'll do it not the Starbucks ones though not the pepper ones but they were the generic frozen ones very good it's really interesting to hear that you're on that I find it hard to believe that you're microwaving your own egg bites but that's a beautiful testament you may as well have just told me that you were out tilling the land this morning yeah my ox and I were out working the land this morning so I'm a little out of sorts. Tommy's a little rumbling. Yeah. Which is fine.

15:37It's a weird situation to jump into my 20s now. What's really wonderful about it is that I grew on the show and I got to do what I love for so long and I'm very lucky in the sense that as I did it for a decade I've come out of it with a love for it still with a real deep love for what I do because I know a lot of people who start at 12 or 13 enjoy it at that point and then they reach adulthood and like this is just not what I want to do with my life and that's a such an understandable normal process to go through there's so many things that you invest so much of your time with as a teenager even as a young as a younger kid and it's just like weirdly it's just something you grow out of and something you just you realize you want to go down a different path and sometimes that can be really stressful for younger people especially in careers because it's such a public endeavor and usually people who take a step back or find a career shift or just choose not to engage as much with it there's like a whole public spectacle of like where did they end up like what happened to like the rise and fall story which i think is is unfair and kind of silly but most people who do take a step back like if you talk to them personally they're like yeah isn't that hilarious like when they're really just going off and pursuing so many other great things with their lives that aren't involved in this well because we have this like societal worship of fame which is not a really a status or a process to envy at all because we have this worship for fame and everyone imagines that they would like to be famous even though they probably wouldn't like the the outcomes of that process because we have that cultural imagination about it and because we assume that fame is the goal, we measure so many artists against that metric that they're not measuring themselves against.

17:28Yeah. They go, oh, so-and-so fell off. And it's like, or so-and-so is like building a life and a family right now. And they actually just don't want to be seen by you all the time. For sure. But it's a really interesting thing that even when you're actively not taking a break and you're still working and you're doing things that are just not 100 % identically aligned with the building of more and more and more attention and fame, if you're making choices that are not just about that. It's funny that culturally people, we as a culture are kind of unable to process that because so many people are not famous and imagine that they would like to be and imagine that they would be good at it and sustain it forever.

18:02It's the people who do, like who become famous through the career that they choose to do so. It's not a type of situation or even careers that are involved when people become famous through them. It's not known for its longevity. Even like the people who are the most famous people in the world eventually gets you get it gets to a point where it just it's not sustainable yeah and if you spend so much of your time trying to sustain it you will be so miserable if that's your goal you're not going to ever win you're not going to win and that's weird it's like a weird i recognize that i don't have a desire that's not at all why i enjoy this this show and having been on it for as long as i have the most incredible thing to come out of it is that it has facilitated my ability to continue working where I choose to.

18:51And that's rare and really, really cool. And that's why I'm excited to jump into stuff that is just kind of by me for me. That makes me feel very, very good. It makes me feel like I'm growing and learning more about myself. And that's why I'm excited to jump into it. And there's even, but there is a weird little pull from like voices in your head of, you have to make things that are projectable or you have to make things that are going to maintain this level of of visibility post stranger things and i really don't i'm just i don't understand why i would really want to do that i don't have any real desire to pursue things for the purpose of that because it's not like something i rather enjoy have you at any point during all of this um had a fear that that you would um that people would forget about you or that you that fame would fall off or that you need to maintain did you ever feel that and just came over got over it or did you not ever feel it at all i yeah i felt it and i don't know why i felt that because i think it was a i think it's a weird there's a correlation that you create with those two things i guess being mutually exclusive or the only the way that for things to feel the same and the way for them to feel satisfying and and be seen as as you doing your job to the best i mean to to the greatest extent that you can is in relation to how many people see it or how visible it is and it really the day-to-day doesn't necessarily really change for me either way if i get to make things that i really really like that nobody sees and i think that's like the best case scenario for me personally i think for like other people it's like i it would be nice for people to see what it is that i do but really for me that it doesn't change a thing and that's cool to get used to, but there is, I think especially when you do it as a kid, when you're kind of instructed on what to value, it kind of is instilled over time.

20:46So there is a process of breaking that down and kind of coming to terms with the things that I was told to value aren't necessarily what I truthfully do. And that's been fun to unpack and discover. And it's just getting rid of the idea that if I don't engage with the attempt to be as visible as I can, I think... Like visibility above all other things. Sure. Not being the goal. Yeah, if that's not the goal in the slightest, then I think I'll be probably the happiest that I could be in doing this. And I think that would be, yeah, that'd be lovely. But there is a weird little self-conscious, like, oh no, but other people I know and like are being seen more, why not me?

21:29And so there's like even something you don't want or something you don't like when you see other people like kind of going down that road of that working out in that department. It's a little bit like there's like a little bit of like a sting there. I don't know because it's the cultural it's the societal anxiety that I think I don't think those are your values based on what I know about you and what you're saying. but the there is a it's similar to like internalized homophobia or misogyny or any of these other things where like it does it might not be your personal values but there's a kind of like cultural um pressure that almost can seep into you through osmosis because you're swimming in it like we're swimming in a society that values that and tells us that that's our value and so it gets really hard to be like i all the time will have a thought that i'm like i'm like oh i'm annoyed that that person got this thing and then I go you don't want that and then I go wait that's not your values you know yeah but it's that math of being like wait that's not even me saying that but the voice is still in there and it's like yeah other voices are able to make noise in my head the work the I think the work of figuring out like who we are and what we want is is placing like which voice is your own and which voice is in there from someone else for sure but I feel like watching you I've I've watched you now like I watched you on set I experienced working with you on set that you always knew your lines.

22:47You were always on time. You're super polite and nice to everybody. You're a consummate professional. Thank you. I've watched you handle the festival, and I've seen you handle the way that people approach you. I just feel that you're very mature and capable and competent at all of this. Thank you very much. Do you feel like you had to grow up really quick? Yeah. Yeah, there's a good conversation around it. It's like a weird ebb and flow of it, of prioritizing a maintenance of innocence and a maintenance of childhood, but also understanding that if that were the case, then there will be problems that come up with that, that there will be growing pains there.

23:33And so there are certain situations where growing up quickly and kind of gaining a bit of a shell earlier is beneficial just objectively. Yeah. And I think that's just understanding that learning that there are so many people that just do not have your best interest at heart and to develop the skills and tools to recognize what that looks like and to let that hurt your feelings because that's a good thing and then move on from those people. That's not something you learn until your adulthood usually and that's something you have to pick. In this, when it's an industry that is kind of, I mean, And so much of the conversation around kids in the industry has been dominated by how many adults have tried to take advantage of them through that process.

24:17Yeah. And that's just something that you're – what's really great about it in the context of me and the other kids in the show was that we were told about this the minute we started working on it. It wasn't anything that we had to discover. Anybody around us had to discover. the whole big wave of of everything that happened over nickelodeon and like even like the brat pack days of hearing about even the the little things like lack of education on set and uh lack of child labor laws like that had all been sorted out and then of course there's so much that comes through about understanding that like in this industry there was so much predatory behavior as well to look out for yeah and because we were aware to look out for these things and to have our parents close to us at all times and to understand that as cool as everybody is and as fun as it is to engage in a professional in a work in a workplace and talk to adults it feels like you're going up faster to keep everything kind of at arm's reach was was inscribed very early and of course when you're 13 you ask why and then they tell you why you're like oh okay yeah i'll do that yeah And so that's weird to learn very early, but very necessary to ensure our safety in that type of environment.

25:36Yeah. For sure. But like all the sets that I'd worked on, because everything was so, there was so much emphasis on ensuring safety, they always were. Yeah. Which is very nice. I feel like even just the, like I had to grow up very quickly in a different way because I was poor and my mom was like working all the time. So it was like this different kind of thing. but I relate to people who got like successful at their career really early in this way that I'm like, I see similar traits that I'm like, I knew how to carry myself in adult spaces at an age that I, it was only beneficial to know these things, but I probably shouldn't have known them.

26:11Sure. And I think like a lot of it nets out positive. Like, I think there's so many positive things about like, you're 23 years old and you're like, are running a massive fucking business. You know, you have, you have like your pick of creative projects, you know how you like to work. queue like you show up on time you know your lines like these are things that like a lot of people getting a job at 23 wouldn't fucking do you know what i mean that you would a lot of a lot of us would be like well he's late again and he doesn't know his lines you know what i mean right so a lot of it nets out positive but it is an interesting thing to to get so much attention at the age that you got it and have handled it so positively i just feel like that must have been a crazy experience i think so but it's all it's the only experience i had yeah so it's not like there's any reference point outside of it there's not it's not like i can really compare and contrast because it's just the experience i lived in especially when you're you normalize everything when you're a kid and that's why breaking down so many things that were not normal is so hard to do when you're adulthood because the whole point of being a kid and protecting yourself is normalizing things that aren't normal around you yeah and so that's why it never really felt as much as people told me and all of us how crazy of a situation it was that we were in we were always around each other and we're able to i guess relate to each other or just we never really had conversations about oh man this is weird right because it was just it wasn't to us and it just didn't really i think it was weirder probably for the older members of the cast from the teenagers who started the show at 23 yeah like yeah natalia was like 19 joe joe kiri was like 23 i think when he started the show probably around the same age so they had that lived experience of becoming an adult and then a sudden shift and that i think is probably way more of a boat rock than doing it at 13 yeah weirdly enough what do you think is that i mean that was really interesting what you said about normalizing things that aren't normal i feel like that's a really good thing for all of us to think about in terms of just like a lot of things that are happening in general in the world right now yeah like what we get comfortable with even though we shouldn't be comfortable for sure what do you think is the most abnormal thing that became normal for you during that time is there anything that like sticks in your mind when you say that or you just kind of like general as a I think just uh intense like people pleasing to adults in a weird way um I think there's this mentality and I think it comes from a place of meaning well I people are way more aware of their boundaries now with me in my 20s than they were when I was 13 which seems odd you think that anytime you were interacting with somebody who is a child who is obviously like the first thought is like all right where's your parent can I ask them if I can say hi and talk about your show but there was a weird mentality of like ah yeah get over here kid nah you're fine yeah you want to take this this picture with me real quick yeah uh which is a little bit weird and of course I was like yes of course of course and anytime i'd say no it was always like a little shit mentality i remember that happened once or twice i remember i was in like denver for a convention and i was eating dinner with my dad and somebody had come over and asked for a picture and i remember i was like i i said i'm not gonna do one right now just because if i take one here then sometimes uh it because it's a very busy place and i've already like been clocked elsewhere that usually when i take one that it's like okay great then he's willing to take pictures so other people come up and i remember like but let me come to you when i finish up my meal before i leave and then i yeah i always felt like because she was around my age at the time too and then her mom came over and just like cursed me out and whoa yeah was like you are not famous enough to say no to a picture who the fuck do you think you are that type of thing my dad did not take light nicely yeah i can't imagine that was received no it wasn't received well at all yeah i've never seen my dad closer to just like drop kicking a stranger in the head and yeah it was so embarrassing and obviously in retrospect they are in the wrong but ever since then for years after that i always said yes to pictures after that yeah and even in situations where i probably could have been like it's not the best time if i even like now i'll be running painfully late to something that i'm already late for and someone will stop me and i think it's very much a good time to be like i really wish i could i just have to keep on running because i'm already late for something and even now i'm like okay yeah and i do i always like to there's not i don't have an aversion to doing it at all because it's the only job and it's one of the only jobs in the world where people actively stop you in a day and say, I appreciate what you do for a living.

30:51That's really cool. It's made a difference in my day to day. And that's something that's incredible to hear. It's very, very rare that because everybody's job makes a difference to everybody, but it's rare that people hear that on a daily basis. And that's really, really special. So I want to acknowledge that and make that interaction special for somebody who may like the show. So I very rarely, I don't usually say no to pictures at all, but like in those weird little times where it may not be the best time to do it, I get so anxious of the idea. I'm like, I really hope that a mom doesn't curse me out of jail.

31:23Well, that's insane. It was so minor. Yeah, that was tough.

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37:19Well, but again, though, that to me is an illustration of that thing of like this is, again, someone who has not experienced that level, a level of attention at scale that we might call fame. They haven't experienced fame. They imagine that they would like it and they imagine they would do it better than people that are doing it now. But they go, I would never, they go, if I were you, I would never say no to that picture. That's what's going on in the brain. And that's the mentality I had jumping in. I was like, oh, I'm being presented with this. And I keep hearing stories about how people are just dicks once this becomes a part of their life.

37:52I'm like, I'm not going to do that. And so I spent so much of my time i guess trying to prove to myself that i was not going to do that and that's been a weird adjustment too but like recently i'm like it's okay if someone doesn't necessarily like me in a specific interaction that's fine if it's of course i'm never actively going to try to be a dick to somebody right like ever in a day-to-day it's just i just don't enjoy that that's not that inherently kind of scares me yeah how do you i'm sure that must have been a pretty sudden shift on your end for it becoming pretty intense very quickly yeah 100 yeah it's only getting weirder by the day for sure i uh that you remember of being like oh shit yeah there are like little ones over time because at first it was just like it was kind of like an if you know you know type of thing where it's like if i'm in brooklyn or la or chicago and i go to a place where there's gay people one or two people are going to want a picture cool and that was like i was like cool no worries that's like a that's like a sweet spot Totally manageable 100 % sweet spot Oh this is awesome Every now and again You can kind of turn it on And turn it off It's like if I'm in like Rural fucking Kansas At a gas station I'm safe I'm good to be normal And then if I want If I really want some attention today It's like Just get to Chicago And get to that gay coffee shop You know what I mean When you went home Because you're Kansas City Yeah Right Was it kind of a haven Of being able to It still kind of is I mean people don't fully Leave me alone In Kansas City But it's so Respectful And I will say I was just Trixie Mattel and I were just in Kansas City at the same time.

39:23And I was taking her around and trying to socialize her like a sick dog. Yes, of course. Teach her what it's like to be around people. These drag queens don't know how to act in public. So I was trying. I was like, take the makeup off. Let's shake some hands. I taught her please and thank you. That was new for her. How'd she do? Better. She doesn't bite anymore. That's good. Yeah, she doesn't bite anymore. And the leash training we're working on. But I was taking her out for walks. People were, yeah, it was just like, it was a very respectful, like even when people did, it was very much an acknowledgement of like, I'm so sorry.

40:01I know I'm bothering you. I love your stuff. And then a quick like. And that's 99.9 % of interactions. It was really sweet. I've gotten, I will say as things have upticked in intensity, I have started to set some boundaries and I never thought I would have any. Right. But getting cornered in bathrooms. Bathrooms is tough. Bathrooms is weird as fuck. Bathrooms is weird as fuck. You ever get a shoulder tap at the urinal? Yes. Yes, I've gotten a shoulder tap at the urinal. Dick in hand. Could I get a photo? I love your work. And also, I'm gay, so be careful. You start tapping me at the urinal, I'm like, I don't know what day we're having.

40:35I'm ready to have that day, but we need to make sure. I thought this was the airport. Yeah, truly. Chase down the street is another thing. That's been happening more and more. Yeah. I don't like chase down the street. Please don't chase me. I don't like it. I'm not a fast runner, so it's not like I have enough. You're going to catch me. You're going to catch me. that's what's scary hey you'll get there you know it's like you have the power yeah fully you know in in horror movies where the the killer only really walks at a brisk speed and he can't seem to catch him you will catch me like that you didn't need to pick up your pace at all you're gonna get me yeah that stuff so i've started to be a little like or if i'm having like a private conversation i've started to be a little better about being like thank you that's so sweet i'm in the middle of a kind of private thing right now but have a great night yeah and the thing you said i've i've really uh employed around being like hey not right now but on my way out i'll come find you that's been really helpful to be like i'm not gonna disrupt my whole flow of being in this room right now and like open up a gate but on my way out i'll come over and yeah do it but what you know it's just an interesting it is an interesting thing because the thing you said about people it being the only job where people tell you they like your work it means the world it's awesome that anyone cares about what i do yeah and then also i have to if i i just feel like if you engage with it too much not you not not you roy you caleb i feel like if i caleb engage with it too much and think about the number of people who watch and listen to me too much i will become an insane person and i am trying so hard to maintain normalcy and a connection to the real world that i'm just like i almost view it as like help me out like help me help me maintain some normalcy and if i express a boundary like consider helping me out you know do you do you look at the numbers do you look at the engagement no but i it's known you know i mean like i know like i know about uh how many people this show reaches a month i know about how many people have seen the hbo special i know like you know i know when i go on someone else's show and it's if it happens to be one of their most watched episodes or something i can or i understand even too like when people come up to me my uh approaches are interesting because a lot of them have a different thing they're coming up for sure that they're like i loved you on so and so show right or i loved your HBO special so I can actually tell by what they're saying to me where they're coming to me from that's pretty special do you know what I mean that's really is that not really cool it's cool but it's weird because they're getting different like a person it's funny a person who comes up to me because they loved me on Z-Way is very different from a person who comes up to me because they loved me on Royal Court sure you know and so I'm it's almost like I start to think about the interaction I'm about to have yeah you know that's interesting yeah does that make you change the way that you approach the rest of that conversation?

43:12Yeah, because they know what they want. You know what I mean? Like, if they love me from Z-Way, they want me to be kind of mean to them. They want me to be a little, they want me to be like, nice shirt, you know, or something like that. Like, that's what they think I am. Yeah, yeah, right, right. You know? And if they know me from... It's cool. Yeah. It's cool. What's so true to you? Oh, man. Do you have a so true for this episode? Dude, I have to tell you, do not feel any way about it. There is something about this show. Nobody comes with one. Do you know what it is? I have one that's fun. I think that Zemeckis' Christmas Carol is objectively a perfect movie.

43:50Whoa. Whoa. Gaten, you're going to get canceled. Okay, tell me about Zemeckis' Christmas Carol. This is the one with Jim Carrey. Yes. With the really awkward looking mocap before, I think, It was like the Polar Express style motion capture in context of A Christmas Carol. And most people like it's just disturbing and it looks weird and it's off-putting. And it's just I tried to like introduce my kids to this story and they just left terrified. Like the ghost of Christmas present like disintegrates into like a laughing skeleton. Yeah. And but dude that story is terrifying. Yeah. That story is about how insanely guttingly terrifying it is for this dude.

44:35and that's why he changes his life. Yeah, ghosts visit you to tell you that you're living your life wrong. And that you're going to go to hell. It's not an upbeat tale. That's what it is. It's like if you don't stop doing this, you're going to hell. Yeah. I guarantee that you are. No, no, my kids couldn't get on board with it. I feel like we were like weirdly watered down with the Mickey Christmas Carol. Yeah. And like Goofy coming in with the chains. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, yeah, 100%. That's funny. It's like cute and cool and it looks fun. And like the Muppets one is great. It's a classic story, but at its core, it is an absolute nightmare.

45:09It's literally a nightmare. It's a harrowing nightmare. It's an absolute nightmare. Yeah. And that movie looks like it. And I'm obsessed with it. Sierra has all the best active and outdoor brands you need. From athletic stuff, like a full-court pickup game, swish, to athletic-ish stuff, like a half-mile stroll. Get those steps in. And for morning hikes up the mountain trail, good pace. It's a nighttime ghost choice from the camping chair. What a twist. Whatever level of active, Sierra loves it all. Head to Sierra or Sierra.com for the brands you want at the prices that let you do it all. From athletic to athletic-ish, Sierra's got it.

45:46Jim Carrey plays Scrooge and all three ghosts. Yeah, well, he's a... And he's incredible. Yeah. Does he play Ghost of Christmas yet to come? There's no lines. I don't know if it's his body doing the pointing. You know what I'm talking about? I don't know. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah. It's crazy. There's some things that don't really work. There's like a crazy sequence in the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come where he gets shrunken down and he surfs on an icicle. Yeah. It's bizarre and weird. But it is actually the only time that I think that book scares me and that movie scares me. And so I relate that to me like they did this the right way.

46:26Yeah. This should scare you. The cast is awesome. Who's all in it? I don't think I know. Kerry Owens is in it. Oh, fuck. Yeah. I love him. Robin Wright's in it as well. Love her. Of course she's in it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's awesome. Yeah. Gary Oldman's in it. Gary Oldman? Gary Oldman plays Jacob Marley. Why the fuck did I know Gary Oldman is in this? It's awesome. This movie rocks. And the thing is, is that I thought that I would talk to film buffs about this and be like, all right, let's get together. This movie rocks, right? You're convening clandestine meetings of film buffs. Being like, just so we're all on the same page.

46:58This movie rocks. And everybody says I'm insane. Yeah. I don't think I'm insane. I don't think I'm insane. Let's put that on the record. I think in this context, I think people don't give it a shot because it's like maybe the animation doesn't hold up. But how many amazing movies don't hold up visually? Yeah. That we don't discount those movies for. Like Empire Strikes Back doesn't look up to par. It's still a perfect movie. Yeah. Well, you love Star Wars. I love Star Wars. You're not kidding around about Star Wars. I don't fuck around about Star Wars in the slightest. Yeah. What is your favorite of the Star Wars movies?

47:33I know that Empire Strikes Back is the best movie. Yeah. But my favorite one to watch growing up is Return of the Jedi. Yeah. It's just like the most like fun space adventure vibe. Yeah. But I remember, did you see David Cornswet talk about this on Royal Court? No. He talked about his order in which he likes to watch Star Wars. And I had this, I agreed with him wholeheartedly. Yeah. And I remember I was like, I've never heard anybody else mention that this is the way to do it. where you go four, five, one, two, three, six. Four, five, one, two, three, six. Some people say you can skip Phantom Menace.

48:08In that order. And which one's that? That's the first one. Well, the first one chronologically. That's Darth Maul, Qui-Gon Jinn. Four, five, two, three, six, then would be the sequence? Yeah, four, five, two, three, six. This is for people who have never seen Star Wars before because you still get the twist in Empire Strikes Back, the classic. Yeah. I can say it's his dad, right? Totally. no i think you're totally safe the window has expired i'm spoiling that it's fine it's been 50 years yeah i think it's fine dude speaking of one time i think during covid i got on a big kick i watched every single minute no phone very focused of the crown on netflix oh it's great okay and i posted about great it's incredible incredible every performance legendary insane and i posted something on instagram about something that happened one of the episodes and someone legitimately got mad at me and we're like, no spoilers.

48:58And I was like, hey, this happened. I'm like, I can't spoil an event of the royal family. This occurred. This infuriates me. Do you remember, like, I know that there's a great community around it and like there's, this is why the show works so well and it's why, like, I love when theater kids engage with shows and make up their whole personality. But I was always so fuming when everyone was like talking about Hamilton and saying, I'm Team Angelica. I'm like, you can't be Team Angelica. These are real people. What do you mean you're Team Angelica? This is a historical event. Yeah. What do you mean?

49:36You can't ship this. You can't ship. There's no shipping. There's no shipping, Angelica. That's so fucking funny. He married Eliza. That's historically what happened. And you can't be like, man, I just wish that they ended up together. What are you talking about? There was no writer's room. That's not how this goes. This is a thing that happened. How do you think that that family would like just... I also think about that, of what do we think founding fathers would look at Hamilton and be like, that's like the story, the way it's being expressed. I think it would give them like an aneurysm. Of course.

50:07You know that that, like the whole thing of what do you show a Victorian child to kill them on sight? Yeah. Is that the saying? Oh, sure. Sure. Totally, yeah. If you showed a... This would make a Victorian child's head explode or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Something like that. Hamilton for the founding fathers. Hamilton for the founding fathers. Dude, I hope I get to come back and see some shit after I'm gone. I want to be fly on the wall It's my girlfriend and her best friend Our best friend's whole Belief in the afterlife They're like I can believe in anything and want anything It's fly on the wall When you die do you want a celebration of life Or mourning I say to be To bring levity I want celebration of life But I'd be bummed if some people didn't cry I want mourning I want mourning if I died tomorrow my ideal is that every person in this room including you who I just met does not recover and I mean ever I mean never recovers I mean if you guys out with me by 50 years I hope on the I hope 50 years from now on this day of the day that I hope you wake up just on a random Tuesday I hope you wake up unable to go to work I hope you are so devastated by my loss celebration of life I don't think so No dancing at my, no dancing, no remembrances, no funny stories, weeping tears, mourning, black veils.

51:31Estate funeral. I want everyone, I want flags at half mass for eternity. This is good. Yeah. It's like in every movie, every like movie when there's a funeral sequence where you see all the black umbrellas like open up and then the rain starts to fall. How many times are we going to do that in a funeral movie? And I want it in real life. And you want it in real life. I want that for Caleb. This is good to know. I want that bad. Please, Gaten, promise me you'll make this happen. I'll make sure. I mean, that's crazy. If you die, I'm the first one to text you like, hey, guys, by the way. Caleb specifically asked me.

52:00I don't know if you remember the episode. Not to be a pain. I know you guys are going through a lot. Yeah, you text my mom. You're like, hey, girl. Saw you posting pretty jovially on Instagram. He doesn't want you to. It's only been a few years since we lost him. Maybe knock it off.

52:17No, I want morning. I want morning. You believe in reincarnation? I would like to. You have a faith? What is your faith? I'm pretty pessimistic about this thing. Thank you. At the moment. This thing?

52:32I'm going to tell you on this thing, yeah. Because also, there is a vibe. I guess I'm an atheist, but that's such an eye roll of a thing to say you are. No. But I also don't want to discount or imply that I am like rolling my eyes or scoffing at people who are very intensely faithful or spiritual. No, because their money is green. Still stream pizza movie. Yeah, yeah, please, please. If you're a devout Catholic, still stream pizza movie. I'm not rolling my eyes at you. For sure.

53:06But I get in this conversation specifically a lot. And also it's an awkward conversation to have because I've lost people who – and that has made people in my family more religious. And I've lost people – like suddenly my cousin passed and he was only 19. And that weirdly – like that ignited some faith and some, I guess, more talk of God and love and stuff like that amongst family members. And then for me, I just – it didn't like spark that. And so that's awkward to kind of when like discussions come up. and it's rarely discussed. I've talked about this in public settings and I'm like, oh man, I hope my grandma's not bummed that that's the way I feel about it.

53:47Were you raised in something? Yeah, I was raised pretty religious. Which one? Generally Protestant, I guess. I went to Methodist churches. I went to a Methodist church growing up but I think because that was closer to where my house was and my mom was friends with the people in choir. Yeah, obsessed with her. She was like, I like the choir and it's close to the house. guess what we just became Methodists she was really just growing up she went on traveling she traveled to Europe once on not a missionary situation she wasn't like preaching but she was with a musical group that would have like Christian based music to crowds of people in like Latvia maybe it's pretty great it's pretty cool I don't ask her about this way, I do not ask her about this enough.

54:38That's a crazy situation. Do you know what? I have advice for you. I have one piece of friend-to-friend advice for you. Do you know the New York Times questions to fall in love? The question set. It's like 37 questions or something. It's in brackets of intimacy. I've done it with many people that I love in my life. It's meant for partners. I have heard about this. It's really good. It's really good. The third bracket, there's some things that like when I did it with my grandma and my mom that you skip because it's meant for partners. So it's like, hold hands and look into each other eyes and like that part you don't do because it's meant for like physical intimacy but you skip those ones with your anyone older in your life that you love grandparents mom the next time you get a chance sit down with them for like two or three hours go on a long drive sit in the house something ask these questions things came up with i am very close to my mommy and my grandma i thought i knew everything about them things came up that i have never heard them talk about oh it's never weirdly that sounds like so much fun it's amazing that sounds amazing it's amazing and i learned things about both of them.

55:35I feel like I understand there have been multiple times since then. This has been a couple years ago that I've done it with both of them. There have been multiple times that we've been in some kind of dynamic that, you know, whatever, we're just in our relationship that I have remembered something they've said and I've been like, this is where this is, this is why you do this. This is why you're like this. This is why. That's so interesting. This is why we're not connecting on this. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I would love to do this with my mom because she's had a crazy life. Yeah? Yeah, for sure.

56:00She's had, or just like the craziest type of upbringing and one that I respect a ton because there was so much in her childhood growing up that was like it felt like the world was just out to like kick her ass yeah her and her brother and growing up it's another thing you normalize even hearing stories about this about like she was raised by her grandparents because her parents just weren't in the picture and I was like oh that's normal and I grew up later I'm like oh that's not normal in the slightest yeah that's so nuts especially because my dad is like had like the polar opposite situation his parents had him when they were 18 and finished having all four of their kids by 23 wow and are still married today yeah and i have like a lot of cousins and we're very very close on that side so they had like the polar opposite situation and it's so cool to see both sides of that but i know that's also not normal that's also not normal that's like that's not the norm or the so interesting yeah the most opposite types of situations yeah and that's why i think it's so interesting how they connected when they first my parents aren't married anymore but I'm so curious as to how those two opposite situations kind of attracted towards each other you want kids?

57:11I think so yeah yeah I do oh I love that for sure I don't have any plans on it for a good chunk of time yeah like six seven months yeah right enjoy yourself take a break for sure by 25 minutes so I'm going to be, yeah, exactly. I'll be ready in a few months for sure. Yeah, I definitely, I've always said, I'm like, yeah, it's like a given, but I don't want to approach it with the mindset of, oh, that's a given, because I think that's how most people approach bringing children into the world and bringing new lives into the world is, oh, that's kind of the process of growing up and living life, and that's like a stepping stone and kind of just a rite of passage, but I think that there's a lot of thought that can go into understanding, Do I have my shit figured out enough to be able to realistically raise a functioning human being and do it well?

58:07Yeah. So, yeah, I would love to. Not yet. No, not right now. Not yet. Not right now. Not right now. Do you feel generally happy and optimistic about the world? Is that your outlook? What's going on? How are you feeling about everything? Crazy time to be alive. Crazy time to be alive. That's the go-to. That's the go-to. I almost spilled my coffee. I am individually a very happy person, but I don't want to just be like, yeah, life's fucking awesome. Because it's also, I'm a very happy person because I'm in the luckiest situation that human beings are in. Yeah. And I recognize that fully. Like there's like the amount of, there's just an overwhelming bucket load of privilege that comes along with me being able to acknowledge the fact that I get to live happily and feel safe every day.

59:00And I don't think that discounts my ability. I still feel like I can feel comfy being like, yeah, I'm very happy. Many people have that and don't feel happy. For sure, for sure. So it's still an accomplishment. For sure, it's an accomplishment. But I don't want to be preachy in the sense of talking about, like, and you can do it too. Or it's like, that's insane to think about. I am a straight white guy who is financially secure at 23 in the United States. Not bad. Not bad. Not bad, huh? As far as it goes. It's pretty good. As far as the cards are dealt, that's a pretty... A lot of people... Yeah, I recognize fully.

59:43I can't just be like, what are people talking about? Yeah. This place rocks. Everyone, cheer up. No, I'm like, I'm fully aware that it would be insane of me for my life's message to be like, why don't we just smile more? Yeah. Because, yeah, that's insane. That would be insane of me. But like I said, there are plenty of people that have those. There are people that have the circumstances that you have or at least some of them and do not find themselves to be happy. And I know that's not like, yeah, there's that's not the key to the situation being on paper as good as it can get. that's not necessarily the key to being necessarily a very happy person because that does not guarantee that in the slightest.

1:00:22I feel the same way you do. I talk about being happy all the time and trying to have fun and enjoy life. And I increasingly, it's funny because it's taken a turn for me just in the last three years. When I was first talking about that stuff on stage, it genuinely did feel kind of like revolutionary because I was poor and no one cared about my work. So I was like, the fact that I'm happy is crazy. And then as that has changed, I'm like, this is starting to hit a little different, I guess. Yeah. But it is, I think you have to be at some level of optimistic to intentionally want children. Even to say, yeah, I think I'll have kids.

1:00:53Right. And I'm always interested in that because I have so many friends that are so smart and doing well. And they make a good living and they're safe and comfortable. They have a house that has running water and electricity. And these are privileges. And they are like, fuck no. I want nothing to do with that. Wow. So I'm always interested in people who do because I'm like, well, that's interesting. There's some level of optimism involved in that, I feel. I would like there to be a legitimate reason I would like that to be normalized Optimism? Optimism but when it comes I think for sure optimism but I mean in the decision making to have kids but a lot of times it's not a decision a lot of times it's just like oh damn alright we're in this situation we're going for it we're going for it and that's how I came along that's how both my siblings came along was like oh shit whoops here we go and I understand that that's probably the vast majority of how people are brought to this earth is, damn, I should have wrapped it up.

1:01:49Yeah.

1:01:53Well, I wasn't quick enough, so we're having a kid. Which is crazy. So I understand that that's just like a different situation, but in the concept of family planning, of understanding when it is you're deciding to have kids, I would like to normalize there being a legitimate reason as to why I feel that I would service bringing a person here and raising them. Like an intention. An intention. A thought about it at all. A thought about it at all, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a great, I wouldn't know yet. I don't know. I wouldn't be able to think right now and say, this is my reason for why I think bringing a human into this world with another human is the right thing to do for both of us and the person we make.

1:02:35Yeah. And that, yeah, I just, I've got time to figure that out. So it's not a priority for me. Yeah. What makes you the happiest? When are you the happiest? Oh, that's a really good question. What I've started to understand and really love is that I can feel at a really peak level of happiness that I think that I have the ability to feel under very different circumstances. And I think that's been a fun adjustment because I believe I will only be happy if I'm engaging in my life's passion, where I want to do it, when I want to do it, And other than that, I'm not doing it right. And there are times where I'm not actively working.

1:03:15And I just have been weirdly, really in sync with the people in my life outside of work. And that's why I feel super happy. And then there are times where I'm not really feeling engaged with my family or with my friends or my girlfriend. And there's like kind of things that just feel like out of sync for a while. But I'm working on something that I really, really love. And I'm still very, very happy. So that's, I think it comes in waves. and I figure that out as it comes along. I've noticed that I feel happiest when, this is a very selfish way of looking at it because it's just like when all the circumstances are aligned for like the things that I love, I love being able to work in the city where I live when my friends and family are also working and living in that same area as me.

1:04:00Because there are times that's very rare. So anytime I notice that, I'm like, oh man, these are all the things I love about what I get to do with my short bit of time here. And that's a great moment. And that always feels very good. It's the best when you can leave work and be like, oh, I can see someone for dinner. I can see someone for dinner. I can sleep in my bed tonight. I can go and sleep in my bed. Oh, it's lovely. Yeah, it's the best. It's so lovely. And that's the one thing that's hard with this job. It's like most of the time when you're working, it's not at home. Yeah. It's just a job that you travel for.

1:04:25To me, the worst situation is working in New York on overnights. Because then it's like, I'm working 3 p.m. to 7 a.m. I am sleeping all day which is so unnatural and then I'm going straight back to work but I'm in the city where so many of my friends and loved ones are doing things I almost wish I was in fucking Vancouver or like Croatia or something then I could just be like oh the reason I'm not seeing anyone is because I'm away instead of like oh if I slept two hours less I could squeeze in a lunch with someone but then I'll be tired at work like the math even being possible it's rare for that to line up Working normal days in New York is great, especially on a soundstage or something where you get out quicker.

1:05:10Anytime you're working inside, it's basically as close to a 9-to-5 as this job can get. It's awesome. That was Devil Wears Prada. Devil Wears Prada was on a... How long did you shoot on that? Like 17 days. Mine was quick, and it was gorgeous. It was on this beautiful soundstage. Everything ran like a machine in Queens. Nice! Oh, dude. Yeah. That's awesome. It was awesome. And then there were all the other sound stages. Everyone would file out into this one shared street where everyone was eating and reading books and in costume and getting their hair done while they walk. And it was just like, we're making movies, baby.

1:05:43This is what it's all about. We're making films. This is lovely. I'm just watching. Between takes, I would just go sit outside because it was really nice. It was like fall weather. I would go sit outside in my costume and wait to be in the next take because there'd be a setup. I was in the background of a lot of Meryl scenes, which is an honor. That's awesome. But sometimes I'd be framed out or whatever. so I'd have like three hours to kill. For sure. And I'd just sit outside and read my book and talk to whoever was going by. And what was really fun was, it was the first time I've been around long enough now and made enough things that, just barely, that I ran into people I knew from past projects.

1:06:16Whoa. I'd run into like a PA from three movies ago. And it was so fun. It's so fun. It's so small world. I know people. It really does make you understand how few, I think, people, and relative to like how big the industry seems. Especially on the crew side. On the crew side, the amount of people that just like cycle through. You just keep running into these. And it's so awesome. It's like, oh my God, that fucking, that like key grip that I loved from that movie is now here working on this thing and we get to hang out all over again. It rocks. It's the best thing ever. It's so fun. Yeah. It feels like, I don't know.

1:06:50It feels like starting school. I never went to summer camp. I don't know why I keep on bringing up summer camp and the things I talk about. You're loving summer camp right now. I keep on saying it. Summer camp's on the brain. Summer camp's on the brain. But it would be like almost like you find out that a friend you made at camp is going to your same school the next year. Yeah. It's like, oh, and then it's like you get to pick up where you left off. And you thought, because you did so many goodbyes. And it's like, I really like getting to know you. This is awesome. You exchange numbers. You're like, well, hang.

1:07:14And then a few weeks pass. And then you inevitably work on other things. And like the bummer of it is that you realize it's just like you rarely get around to doing so. And so it's really fun when you jump back onto a set and you get to just immediately. Fall back in. Yeah, fall right back into it. It's just interesting to hear you say that you exchange numbers with people. I asked for your number at the end of Pete's movie, and you said no. That's bullshit. I've had your number for months. I've had your number for like a year. That sucks. I said, Gay News, so much fun working with you. The day we wrapped, I gave you my number.

1:07:41I'd love to stay in touch. And you said, sorry, man. You said, call my publicist. We'll flag it with the team. Yeah, yeah. I flagged it with the team. I tried to walk up to you. I tried to walk up to you, and your security guard went, excuse me? No, I'm just kidding. I'm kidding, guys. I'm playing. I'm playing guys Gaten I have a game for you We play it every episode on this show I can't wait It's a true false segment Amazing

1:08:09Basically what's going to happen here Is I'm going to read you 15 statements You're going to tell me as quickly as you can after each one If what I just said was true or false And Gaten if you get 10 or more correct Don't get too excited We're going to give you 50 US dollars I know Stranger Things is over brother. It's time to get back to work. It's time to clock in. Dr. Seuss wrote Charlotte's Web. False. False. It was E.B. White. The airplane was invented in 1903. False. True. Alaska has the most lakes of any U.S. state. False. True. Elton John's middle name is Hercules. False. True. Goldfish don't sleep.

1:08:45True. False. Pineland's regional high school's yearbook is called a cat tail. False. It's true. No, it's not. It's the cat eye. Oh, Chance. Wait. That's their website. Sorry. You wouldn't be the first to challenge Chance. Passports for U.S. adults are valid for 12 years. False. It's 10. False. It's 10. Wendy's is older than Taco Bell. True. False. The mascot for Kraft Mac and Cheese is the Cheezosaurus Rex. That's not true. That's true. No, it's not. I eat Kraft Mac and Cheese once a week. It's Cheezosaurus Rex. I've never seen Cheezosaurus Rex. It's Cheezosaurus Rex. Wait, show me Cheezosaurus Rex.

1:09:19We'll pull it up. The Property Brothers are not twins. The Property Brothers are twins. They are twins. They're identical twins, so it's false. The New Jersey state drink is cranberry juice. That would make sense. I'm going to say true. It's true. The drowsy chaperone won five Tony Awards. That's got it. Oh, that's true. Yes. It did not win any. Did it? True. It's true. Don't look at me like that. A group of cheetahs is called a pride. One more time. A group of cheetahs is called a pride. They're cats. So true. False. It's called a coalition. It's horrifying. That's so annoying. The original Motorola Razr did not have a camera.

1:10:01True. It's false. Anakin Skywalker's mother's name is Shmi. Shmi Skywalker, that's true. That is true. How do you do? Six.

1:10:14Show me Cheezosaurus Rex. Pull up Cheezosaurus Rex now. There's no way. Put Cheezosaurus Rex right here in the episode. I'm begging. I am a Kraft Mac and Cheese connoisseur. It's kind of shocking. When is the last time they've used Cheezosaurus Rex? I'm assuming, is it not on the box? Chance does this to people, dude. He's a very nefarious actor. He's a bad agent. Chance, you think you want to pull the picture up? It's not connecting to my computer. I guess we could just say it's false. Let's see Cheezosaurus Rex. And I'm going to remember what this guy looks like, too. Oh, there he is. Oh, you've seen him.

1:10:50Since 1993. You've seen him. Look at him. You love him. I don't think I've seen that guy. Look at him. Chance, is it still in use? He's used in select promotional campaigns. That means he's retired. Primarily from 1997 to like 2013, but he still appears on some boxes. That looks like 1982 to 87. I was going to say, if he was going to say... He was afloat in the Macy's Day parade? He's very famous, Cheez-A-Saurus Rex. He is a famous dinosaur. It's cool to be cheesy. It certainly is. Oh, wait, click on that shirt. Do I need that shirt? Go down. Bottom. Right. Right. Right. Oh, my God. That's sick.

1:11:28We need to get that for you. That's a great idea. You need that. I will look that up. Chance, buy that for Gaten on my dime. Wait, wait, wait. If I do get that, though. But maybe can I? That's$145. I don't care how much it costs. No price is too big for my boy. Wait, can I get it? No. So that it can be the thing you display on my behalf here? No, it's too big. It's too big. We should put a Cheezosaurus Rex on the set. Cheezosaurus Rex is a really good, cute little thing. We're going to put Gaten's Cheezosaurus Rex on the set. Don't let me forget. Don't let me forget. Wait, what's that other one?

1:11:54The long-sleeved one. Get him that as well. This looks like a Brian Robert Jones. I love that shirt. Buy every Cheezosaurus Rex shirt you can find and send it to Gaten's house immediately. It's like funny at first, but then you get like seven more Cheezosaurus Rex shirts for me. You start telling people, you're like, Caleb Aaron's kind of a weird guy. You block my number and keep sending it. I never talk to you. I see you in public. I avoid you. I just keep sending the wrecked shirts. She's a source wrecked shirts every day. Oh, shit. Oh, my gosh. Look at that guy wearing it like a little model.

1:12:31We got to put some of these on screen so people know what we're talking about. That Hollister pose. Why would he ever be surfing on water and not cheese? I don't. That's a waste of opportunity for sure. Gaten, thank you so much for being on. Thank you for having me. You are an incredible guest. Do you want to tell people? Watch Pizza Movie. Watch Pizza Movie. We're both in it. Watch Pizza Movie. Gaten's incredible in it. As are you. Fully his film and they allowed me to show up for a couple days. We're so happy you did. Is there anything else you want to tell the people? I appreciate your investment of your time and your energy.

1:13:01Oh yeah. Follow him on Instagram for God's sakes you guys. I don't post. He's not posting his cute pictures on there for nothing. Give this guy a follow. Let's bring Gaten to the top. Thanks for doing it dude. Thanks man. Daydreaming about Fiore soft dream knit fabric? Meet the Halo Essential Wide Leg Pant designed with Viori's softest premium stretch dream knit fabric. Invest in your happiness with some of the most comfortable clothes on the planet. Get 20 % off your first purchase at Viori.com slash Halo 20. That's V-U-O-R-I dot com slash H-A-L-O-2-0. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions.

From the publisher

Welcome! This week’s guest is the talented Gaten Matarazzo! Gaten and Caleb talk growing up in the public eye, weird encounters in bathrooms, the proper ways to grieve, Star Wars, and much more! Watch PIZZA MOVIE starring Gaten and Caleb on Hulu April 3rd! 

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Produced by Chance Nichols @chanceisloud

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So True with Caleb Hearon is edited and engineered by Nicole Lyons. Our social media manager is Virginia Muller. All episodes are filmed in The So Trudio at Legitimate Business World Headquarters in Brooklyn, New York. 

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