Zach Zimmerman is Not Evil

13 Nov 2025 · 1 h 10 min · 28 chapters

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In short

Zach Zimmerman is not evil; the episode centers on boundaries, consent, dating/sex norms, and moral capacity (conflict vs abuse; “tell a man no”; whether people have “great evil” in them). It also includes a long story about being targeted by sextortion scams and a debate about ethical dilemmas and power.

Guests (and backgrounds)

Zach Zimmerman (comedian; writes about queer life and family dynamics; grew up evangelical/religious; author of “People in Trouble” is discussed as Sarah Schulman’s work, while Zach’s own first book is referenced as “untouched” on a shelf). Caleb Heron (host/interviewer; comedian; discusses therapy, family, and boundaries).

Key claims

  • Boundaries protect you from people with “impure intentions.”
  • Saying no reveals character; don’t personalize anger.
  • Conflict isn’t inherently abuse.
  • Everyone has some capacity for good and evil; “great evil” correlates with power.

Notable examples

  • Portland dating app catfish/sextortion: scammer sent a countdown threat and a fake penis image to Zach’s family; he blocked and didn’t pay.
  • Grinder bots and explicit “plug-and-play” nudes reduce imagination.
  • “Tell a man no” leads to “song and dance” reactions.
  • Zach confronts his mom over “love unconditionally” being conditional on partner gender.

Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.

Chapters

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Understanding Boundaries

1:32 to 2:18

Zach discusses the importance of setting personal boundaries.

“It's all I want to talk about are those 10 things.”

Trust and Naivety

2:18 to 3:40

Exploration of trusting others and the challenges it brings.

“But we're the kind of people, I think most comics in general, but we want to talk about everything that's ever happened to us.”

Cultural Identity and Humor

3:40 to 5:08

Discussion of cultural identity and humor as a coping mechanism.

“Yeah, the striped shirt, the shoes off I'm a baby Just learning about boundaries last month Really?”

Dating App Experiences

5:08 to 6:54

Zach shares a shocking dating app encounter that turned into a scam.

“You're referring to the concept of oscillating, yeah.”

Privacy Invasion and Responses

6:54 to 9:48

The impact of privacy invasion through technology and apps.

“This scammer has sent a report of my name.”

Nudity and Imagination

9:48 to 12:18

Discussion on the implications of sharing explicit images online.

“I was like, well, that's a funny headline.”

Saying No: A Summer Revelation

12:18 to 14:00

Zach reflects on the reactions of men when faced with rejection.

“We wonder about what's going to be going on.”

Navigating No: The Art of Saying No

14:00 to 14:50

Learn techniques for effectively asserting yourself through rejection.

Understanding Conflict and Abuse in Relationships

14:50 to 17:40

Explore the nuances of conflict and how it's not synonymous with abuse.

“Just because of their oversized emotional reaction to that no.”

Personal Growth and Parental Relationships

17:40 to 21:00

Discuss the impact of family dynamics on personal identity and growth.

“You don't have to read the books, just let them.”
Show all 28 chapters

Coming Out and Conditional Love

21:00 to 23:00

Unpack the complexities of coming out and the reality of conditional love from parents.

“I noticed from afar, you've given a lot to your family.”

Reflecting on Childhood and Education

24:28 to 28:04

Examine the influence of childhood experiences on adult relationships and education.

“I was like, oh, it seems like the level of your love is conditional based on the gender of my partner.”

Reflections on Childhood and Teaching

28:10 to 29:18

Zach shares his experiences growing up and his relationship with teachers.

“why do I not relate to any of these people?”

The Spectrum of Teaching

29:19 to 31:02

A discussion on the diverse qualities of teachers and personal anecdotes.

“and half of them are the biggest reject losers who like miss high school and middle school and wish they could do it over again so badly.”

Memorable Teachers and Their Impact

31:03 to 32:48

Zach recounts stories of significant teachers and how they influenced him.

Dating and Personality Insights

32:49 to 35:04

Exploration of dating, personality traits, and humorous exchanges.

“I was giving room for a further bit, but I like that.”

Ruminating on Human Nature and Happiness

35:05 to 37:20

A conversation about happiness, human behavior, and societal expectations.

“I do think dating apps should have videos.”

The Complexity of Doing What Excites You

37:21 to 41:43

Discussing the concept of acting on excitement and its implications.

“Because they don't worry because they're animals.”

Moral Dilemmas and Decision Making

41:44 to 42:03

A playful debate on moral choices and ethical dilemmas in hypothetical scenarios.

Moral Dilemmas and Buttons

42:03 to 43:00

Exploring a hypothetical scenario about moral choices and money.

“I'm like, Zach, you have not set up a dilemma.”

Debating Good and Evil

43:29 to 45:57

Discussion on the concepts of good and evil and personal ethics.

“There have to be two buttons because a choice has to exist.”

God, Jesus, and Morality

45:58 to 48:47

Analyzing the contrasting views of God and Jesus in the context of morality.

“Like if you're willing to make the evil choice on a micro scale, like you'll do the same.”

The Nature of Existence and God

48:48 to 51:48

Exploring different perceptions of the universe and the concept of God.

“And so God is this, like, angry, toxic guy who picks favorites, Cain and Abel.”

Comedy, Personal Stories, and Boundaries

51:49 to 56:00

Discussion about how comedians decide what personal experiences to share on stage.

“I haven't, I don't, why would anyone want to be a part of, no offense, the toxic legacy of masculinity?”

The Balance of Comedy and Authenticity

56:00 to 58:12

Explore the nuanced relationship between personal authenticity and comedic performance.

“Within a set, I do think there is a little space for a frayed edge or two, but don't make it the whole thing.”

The Power of Noticing and Love

58:12 to 1:00:01

Discuss the impact of small acts of kindness and the importance of noticing others.

“You don't get to ask questions of the barista.”

Nudges and Social Interactions

1:00:01 to 1:02:34

Delve into how small nudges in social situations can foster community and connection.

“Love is, I use the bell hooks definition, commitment to one's spiritual growth.”

Trivia Game with Zach Zimmerman

1:02:34 to 1:08:26

Engage in a fun trivia game that tests Zach's knowledge on random statements.

“So, I'm going to read you 15 statements.”
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Transcript

Automatic transcript. May contain errors.

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2:01Yep. It's called boundaries, baby. I'm learning what they are. I'm really happy for you. They're very hard to do. I'm really happy for you. It's all I want to talk about are those 10 things. Yeah. And so that's, oh, I get it. So this, yeah, the reason you're having to be so intense about not talking about it is because you're dying to talk about it. Oh, of course. It's the headline of my summer. It's hard for us. But I'm processing those things. It's hard for us. But we're the kind of people, I think most comics in general, but we want to talk about everything that's ever happened to us. Oh, yeah.

2:27And that's nice in that it's vulnerable. My friend said, like, that's what she loves about me. I, like, open up and I share my innards so people can, like, poke around. Yeah. But I'm realizing, like, oh, not everyone has, and I'm sort of violating my own boundary now, not everyone has the purest intentions. Like, hey, this is how to love me is also like, hey, here's how to emotionally abuse me. And so I need to be a little more mindful about who I let in. Well, you're giving them the code to the safe. I gave him the code to the safe because I trust people. Yeah. I'm so naive and immature. I thought people were good.

3:03I still think they're good. I'm very Anne Frank Jesus Christ in that way. And what happened to them, you know, says something. Do you feel positive about referring to yourself just now on the So True podcast as very Anne Frank Jesus? Does that feel good to you? Because I'm a mere humble interviewer and I'm happy to. I believe people are good to my detriment. Yes. That's what I mean by that. And so did. I'm not saying that I'm Jesus. I'm not, and I'm also not Jewish. I realize both those people were Jewish. Both those people were Jewish. And I'm not. What else do they have in common? That is so funny.

3:43Ann and J. Seuss. I don't know. I'm empowered by this. By what? The shoes off? Yeah. And I feel like a little kid. Yeah, the striped shirt, the shoes off I'm a baby Just learning about boundaries last month Really? I thought you told everybody everything Me? I thought one did Oh, one, that one should Yeah, one Capital Royal U No overshare Yeah, well, I think it's fun to share I like to share I think I share a lot But I keep some things for myself But very rarely What do you keep for yourself? See what I'm doing? I'm testing his own boundary That was wrong of me No, I was just talking to somebody about this yesterday that like in work, I'll talk about absolutely anything.

4:26I don't really have much fear around any topic. I don't have fear around any topic. I exercise some boundaries in my work only around a key couple of specific like familial relationships and not my dating or sex life, but my romantic life. Oh, you talk about fucking but not falling. Yeah, exactly. Zach, you are such a poet. Stop. You are such a poet. no one to know you also you make me want to you make me want to embrace my my southern poet side stop we do where's the midwest south no i'm stolen valor over there some people talk about uh missouri as the south but the truth of the matter is there's really two missouris and one of them is southern one of them is midwestern i am from squarely from the midwestern portion but there's it's a spectrum yes because if you're down in the boot hill of missouri that is called the boot hill yeah and it's that's like arkansas tennessee yeah that's like down in the little dip of missouri you're down there and then up in the north it's like iowa is it a pair of heels or it's a boot for sure yeah it's i'm just telling you what it's called you know what i'm realizing these chairs are tell me kind of like rocking chairs it's fun to swivel on a porch isn't it fun to swivel it's fun to swivel i feel like uh one of those fans what you know the fan that kind of gives a little air over here.

5:44You're referring to the concept of oscillating, yeah. Okay, SAT. I know that word also. Don't act like you don't know what oscillation is. Comedy is just synonyms. Yeah, it is. Vacillating? What do you think that you're blocking from me right now? By focusing on the chair and the shoes? I'm keeping things light so you don't get into the summer. The summer from hell. the summer the summer i turned broken oh my god i just love that we were talking before the show about portland and you mentioned a fun experience you have may i share a portland experience i had well i wish this is portland oregon portland oregon i was there having nice fun i was on a dating app and match with a beautiful trans woman and we started messaging and then we she was like oh can i get your number i was like sure we started chatting we were going to meet up uh to fool around.

6:39She shared a dirty pic. And I was like, oh, that's a different pic than your profile picture. And she was like, oh, that's my roommate. She's also a trans woman. I was like, okay, you're a catfish. And I blocked, et cetera, et cetera. Phone call. Do it now. I was like, what? Do it now. I look at my phone. This scammer has sent a report of my name. They have my address, my age, a list of possible family members, some of which are true, a picture of me, and then a picture of a penis, which is not my penis. I never sent this penis. Are you lying right now? No, it's literally not my penis. They sent a penis, which isn't mine.

7:21I don't know whose that was. No, it was bigger than mine. They always are. They always are. They always are. I know. That's why being bi is nice. Gay men need 10 inches to feel anything. No, I have been on record about this. A big dick is such a... It's cumbersome. Don't bring a big dick around me. It's cumbersome. It's cumbersome. It's like, why do you even have that thing? Yes, but I have to finish the story. Well, then get back to it. I forgot where I was. He said, do it now. Yes. They built this report, not my penis, that they're like, I'm going to send this to your family and ruin your life.

7:58I was like, what? And they're like, I'm counting down 10, 9, 8. And I was like, you don't like texting this like 10, nine, eight, like do it now. And I'm like, what? He's like, send me$500. I'm going to ruin your life. I was like, you don't have my family's phone numbers. And then he's like, all right. And so a couple of minutes go by. My sister texts me like, hey, did you get that text? I was like, how is this scammer like pretending to be my sister? That's insane. So I call her like, Hannah, what are you talking about? he somehow sent this report to my immediate family and my brother's ex-wife their numbers must be online with like this guy does gay and teenager and they send the dick pic not gay and teenager gay and teenager to be fair i was talking to an of age trans woman yeah when the allegations aren't even yeah like basically and i'm just texting my mom like that's not my dick mom that's not my dick and i think she was most offended by just being reminded that i'm queer um in her inbox i was gonna say it's it's it's not great for your mom who has like maybe uh some some questions about queer for her to get a text it's like here's your son's dick he's doing teenager it's like okay worst case scenario really yeah and she she was probably just like send him the 500 sacrifice just do it no but that was quite a quite an afternoon it was quite a rush actually because I wasn't going to give into it.

9:23I knew it wasn't real or mattered, but it does get your heart racing. I mean, this is a horrifying story. Yeah, I do have a habit of going through terrible things and immediately thinking they're funny before actually sitting with the emotions. Oh, it's horrifying that this person did this to you. Yeah. It's such an invasion of privacy. I know. It makes you kind of not want to go on apps or give your number anymore or trust your gut more. I kind of knew something was up. I don't give my number. She was like, I don't charge. I was like, well, that's a funny headline. for your account like okay i was like i do a dollar a minute babe but they they prey on sweet horny tourists yeah yeah that's true i hate that it happened to you thank you so much what app was this grinder.com this was grinder grinder full of bots these days i know it hot people oh hey join my only fans like no i want to meet up they're getting better it too i think for for a number of years there when i was a little bit younger the grinder fake accounts the pictures were so clearly fake yeah it was always like some some man in like a mostly unbuttoned white shirt on the beach with like a pinot grigio and it was like you're clearly not in rural missouri right now and now they've gotten good at finding like multiple pictures of a real looking person from the area they're pretty good my big beef with grinder right now isn't the bots.

10:46It's the death of the imagination. Okay. People in these albums are sharing photos that sort of leave nothing to it. Do you know this is one of my biggest things? It's like graphic. You're showing me a dick in your ass. You're showing me an imagine. There's no, like write a poem. Write something. Like there's nothing. It's so graphically explicit. Like the mind isn't engaged. It's just body. Like plug and play. This is your thing also? I'm with you. I'm so excited to hear you say this because I have been saying I don't send nudes at all. I don't do it. Oh, same. Because I'm like, there's too many people.

11:21I've caught too many people even kind of early in my career. I caught too many people trying to get me to send nudes. They just want to see the goods. And then they don't want to hook up. They just want to do whatever they want to do with them. Yeah, yeah. And I'm not interested in that. Are you on LPSG? I'm sorry? There's a forum out there. LPSG? Yeah. What is that? Large Penis Support Group. it's where people share the nudes of notable public figures that they've accessed in order to determine if they have lps that's horrible it's terrible people are really nasty i have a page there yeah they have nothing on me yeah also i'm i don't whoa i need to check in on that on the size of my penis i need to check in on the size of your penis on the chat no the form I mean, I find that boogie.

12:09So anyway, but the sending of like every angle of your naked body before you meet up with someone. I'm like, the whole fun is that we like meet each other. We make out for a little bit. We feel around. We wonder about what's going to be going on. Yeah. It's like this is the fun of it. Why don't you like you've removed the whole entire enjoyment of the process. Soon you don't even have to meet up. There's probably some weird AI future where you just bloop bloop and then they appear and you don't even. I don't know. Yeah. I really I don't like it at all. It really makes me sad. How do we get back to like a letter?

12:41Okay. So yeah, you and I are... Dearest Caleb Haran. The evening has descended, but my penis is rising. Yeah. If you sent me that letter, there's a less than 0 % chance we'd fuck. That's not how percentages work. Yeah. Well, it is in this scenario. Oh, okay. Welcome to your world. I like it over here. I like it over here. It's good. Everything makes a little bit more sense in my world. Can I tell you the catchphrase of the summer? Yeah. Tell a man no. This is the clip. I already know it is. Clip this. Tell a man no. Get ready for a show. Whoa. Tell a man no. Get ready for a show. Tell me about it.

13:24What does that mean? All you have to do is tell a man a little itty bitty no. They will put on a production. A little bit of rejection. Yeah. You will see. Do this on an early date with someone. do this with a new friend it it shows everything about the person what do you mean um like like no ask me ask me something okay well i don't think okay ask me a personal question um what's uh what's your what's your idea of a perfect day that's a great question uh i don't i don't want to talk about that well yeah that's really rude

14:02don't you think that's rude that was rude that it would be rude if someone asked you such a benign question to say that you don't want to talk about it oh uh potentially but let me give you a better one yeah um but you also might not be a man in this scenario i have to be a man in this and i want to be a man in this scenario to make your thing work um let's let's go out friday night no thank you yeah there is a better way to do that hey i'm busy i'm busy that's different than no though you want to see how they respond to being told no to yeah like oh can i get the door for you no thank you what do you mean i can't get the door for you like you're gonna see anger yeah you're gonna see playfulness you'll see how they react to a no yeah and this summer i was telling men no i got shows yeah i got they put on little song and dances they got They got angry.

14:52I got shows. They did their little dances. Yeah. And what did you learn? What did I learn? That it's not to hold firm to it. Don't give in. Yeah. Just because of their oversized emotional reaction to that no. Yeah. Like, maintain your no. Don't personalize their reaction. It's something they have. Even you being like, that was rude, is based on your understanding of social etiquettes and norms. like oh i didn't mean to be rude i just don't want to talk about that yeah well i do think yeah i think that's totally fine it's totally fine for someone to say i think both sides are fine it's totally fine for someone to say that was rude and for you to then say oh i wasn't trying to be rude if if i experienced an encounter in dating where i thought someone was rude i would say that was rude and if they said oh i wasn't trying to be rude i'd be like okay that that is perfect interaction that's a perfect interaction i think there is something that like conflict is not inherently i've encountered a lot of people abuse sarah shulman what is that conflict is not abuse it's a book she wrote sarah shulman oh i don't know who that is who is she um she wrote rent and it was stolen by jonathan larson obsessed she's a lesbian scholar um wrote oh my god i feel like a queer elder right now my god what what was the first book she wrote people in trouble that inspired, it was stolen by Jonathan Larson to make rent.

16:18And what did I read of hers? There's a family book about how therapists and people need to intervene in homophobic family units that we celebrate and worship the family. Like, oh, the parents are always right. Let them do. And it's like, no, if the parents are homophobic, the state slash a therapist slash community members need to intervene. Yeah. I forget what the title of that one was. Is that a skill? Yeah, what's the last name? Sarah Shulman. Am I getting her name wrong? Sarah Shulman. I feel like the lesbians are going to be really mad if I got that name wrong. Don't worry, they were mad at me last week.

16:54Oh, what'd you do? I don't know what I was talking about. There's this phenomenon that happens sometimes on this show where if I make any joke about another group, there's like 12 people from that group that are like, why would you be speaking on this? And it's like, because I can and I want to. You need to grow up. And I'll keep doing it as well. Is that your right? Yeah, and it is, and I will. That's my job, actually. It's literally, yeah. Did we find a chance? There's a lot. Was it fiction or nonfiction, what you're looking for? People in Trouble was their fiction work, but the nonfiction was...

17:22There's My American History, Lesbian and Gay Life During the Reagan Bush Years, Stage Struck, Theater Aids, and The Marketing of Gay America, Ties That Bind. Ties That Bind. There you go. And what is Ties That Bind? That's the homophobia one. That's the interview. And then The Conflict Is Not Abuse is her most recent one, which I haven't read. Yeah. With a name like that, you kind of... I mean... You don't have to read the book. That is, there's something I've been... Like the let them theory. Yeah. You don't have to read the books, just let them. Sorry. No. You were saying. That is something I've been thinking a lot about, is conflict is not like, yeah, it's not abuse.

17:57It's not inherently a bad thing. That someone, you're allowed to have your thing and someone is allowed to have an opposition to it. And you can probably both get to a place of being like, oh, okay, understood. In fact, it's healthy and good that you both leave that as still individuals. Yeah. Like with your own ideas and thoughts. my dad god forbid i'm citing him said and i'm citing the dark magic on this one but yeah i'm gonna invoke you brought him up uh you brought him up if two people caleb you want to talk about my dad yeah oh welcome zach stop it frank zimmerman is not here um if two people agree on everything only one of them is thinking yeah oh that actually is really insightful he has And then my therapist has like six or seven things that are just like Bible verse quality things you want to cite for your whole life.

18:45Therapist beats dad. Therapist is dad. Yeah, first of all. Or sort of the non-judgmental, shameless, kind, loving, and supportive father figure. Yeah. Of course he's a 55-year-old straight white man. Naturally. In Chicago, of all places. Gay? Changed my life. Straight. Wow. I've had gay therapists, and it's never took off. Why not? for various reasons yeah one in chicago just would sit there what do you mean just give me something just wouldn't say a word like oh i don't like that like kick us off and then i had one in new york who was like more insecure and anxious than me and i was like that can't be how this works we set up a first meeting and i was like hey like yeah, if this works out, I'd love to keep making another appointment.

19:40He's like, what do you mean if this works out? Of course it's going to work out. Oh, no, honey. Not iron sharpening iron, please. This can't be. It was dull sharpening dull. That's crazy, dude. Have you had gay therapies? I don't really do therapy. God, you really are enlightened from the jump. Oh, I don't think so. I mean, I feel good, but I think I could probably, there's times where I need therapy. I just haven't made the leap back to it. When I say I don't really do therapy, I mean lately in my adult life. I did therapy a little bit in college. It was fine. But I kind of got over my big thing at that time and then everything since then, I got a lot of tools from that.

20:20And then I don't know, I've just felt like I can mostly handle things. From our first lunch forever ago, I was like, Caleb, you know who you are. I do, I think. In a very confident way. And you've told me about saying no to things before. You're just like, You're very sure of yourself, and I admire that. Thank you. Do you feel like you know who you are? I'm starting a process of learning who I am. Yeah. Post putting other people's needs before mine. And when did that process begin? The summer? Is it the unmentionable? I've always been. Like, I process some of the, I grew up super religious, evangelical, thought I was going to hell.

20:54I've processed, like, some of that, but I'm realizing anew that those wounds, by keeping the relationship with my family, those, I'm still receiving some abuse. Yeah, you've given a lot. I noticed from afar, you've given a lot to your family. Yeah, and I thought it was noble. This is sort of on the topic of the book I'm writing. The new one. The new book. It's called Ship Mother. Yeah. I took my mom on a week-long cruise, my conservative evangelical mother, in order to fundamentally change and alter her religious and political beliefs. And we all know how that turned out. And it worked. It worked!

21:31she's she's yeah she's running she's been door knocking for mom donnie yeah yeah yeah she loves that free bus yeah um i uh yeah and so but what i've i don't want to well i mean i'll give it away because the book may never come out or i might die tomorrow um what i learned me being like obsessed with her and trying to understand her was at the expense of me being obsessed with myself and learning who i am like why am i trying to why does this woman believe i'm going to hell and sort of can't accept this queer part of my life, I caught her in a lie. Whoa. I caught her in a lie. What was the lie?

22:09And it's a big lie. You don't want to tell? Do you want to save for the book? I don't want to pressure you into giving away a big good lie. I mean, if everyone listening could go buy the first book, that'll help the second book maybe exist. Okay, so everyone go buy Zach's first book, which sits in my home beautifully. Oh, thank you. Untouched. It's in a mausoleum. everyone prays to it when they come in no it is touched and has a great cover do i mind giving that away yeah i mean it's not i don't know if this will be in the book that she loves me unconditionally was a lie yeah and how did you catch her in that i came out to her as bisexual or let her know i was dating a woman this summer uh and she said i've been praying for this which is funny and hurtful at the same time hilarious sort of awesome i know that she hid it behind humor which is what's tricky yeah oh that's actually really hurtful but hilarious yeah thanks for the content mom um and as i was dating a woman she was asking more questions about it she sent us like a present a game for us to play and i was like oh would you have done that if this was a man you can be honest with me and she said probably not yeah and so a couple weeks later i was like hey how do you show love oh you ask questions you send gifts right mom excuse me i'm not getting choked up that was like a belch yeah they just had a whole variety of coffee yeah we're at like uh i'm at like a 20 chance of crying on the pod nice i'm i would say have you ever have i cried on this pod yes oh have i i think didn't hmm yeah i can't remember what episode i cried on a bonus segment once with Bob.

23:53Have I cried on the main show? I'm trying to think. Yeah. You didn't cry during either of the Kelly episodes. No, Kelly cried instantly on the Kelly episode. My mom. I don't know. She's a crier. I feel like you've gotten choked up or teared up a little bit. Yeah, I cry. I cried to you two days ago. Usually on the show, it doesn't usually go to a place that gets me to cry. Gotcha, gotcha. But I'm open to it. Let's cry on camera. I think it'd be very chic. We're at 25 % now. Oh, we got up. Yeah, I'm feeling a little safer. You got safe. A little safer. Baby, you are safe here. But I confronted my mom.

24:31I was like, oh, it seems like the level of your love is conditional based on the gender of my partner. And she's like, well,

24:42I believe what I believe. I was like, oh, I'm just disappointed in that. And she's like, well, yeah and i just stood stood my ground to co-opt a phrase um yeah let's just stand your ground state yeah let's just stand your ground state i'm doing yeah um and yeah it was just eye-opening to me like oh you've said that for so long i love you unconditionally we had a funny you your mom called when we were having brunch and i all right ask where you got all your confidence and you said my mom yeah she like praised me every day when i was a kid yeah and i was like i called my mom after that i was like hey can will you like praise me i'm sorry that's so sweet i love you that's so sweet is it sweet that is funny she was like you're almost a 40 year old man why do you need your mom to praise you yeah and i was like oh because you didn't when i wasn't 40 yeah because you didn't do it when i needed it most and then the next day i got like you're amazing my amazing son that's really sweet that's effort yeah yeah maybe you know or is there eight dollar short yeah and there might be a word for a person who does that sort of push pull degrade praise right grade praise yeah that i hesitate to say yeah i yeah it's really it's tough it's really tough because i don't know you oscillate sometimes with parents between it's you know the whole like it's their first time on earth it's kind of thing where you're like they're a person who's figuring it out that you're oscillating between like that and then um also being like well i was the child i don't i shouldn't have to have this much grace for you thousand percent yeah my dad i asked him once like what what's it what is a good dad yeah thinking oh he had some philosophy he's raised four kids we're all like reasonable adults productive members of society and he goes i don't know i didn't have one yeah i'm like oh you're trapped yeah you're you're you're 12 yeah you're 60 but you're 12 yeah and it comes back to one of the bible verses of my therapist everyone is a fourth grader this has been a thing that's been coming up a lot lately i've seen i've seen a bunch of anti you're skeptical no i've seen a bunch of stuff online like everyone's 12 now like everyone's we were always 12 yeah we've always been 12 yeah i don't Don't you feel 12?

27:00No, I feel that I've always been 30. I feel that when I was 12, I was 30. I've felt 60 since the day I was born. Sierra has all the best active and outdoor brands you need. From athletic stuff, like a full-court pickup game, swish, to athletic-ish stuff, like a half-mile stroll. Get those steps in. And for morning hikes up the mountain trail, good pace. It's a nighttime ghost choice from the camping chair. What a twist. Whatever level of active, Sierra loves it all. Head to Sierra or Sierra.com for the brands you want at the prices that let you do it all. From athletic to athletic-ish, Sierra's got it.

27:40Fall never arrives all at once. First the air, then the light. And slowly the things you love begin to find each other. A jacket meets a dress. A hoodie slips beneath a blazer. An old cap finds a new scarf. because you don't simply step into the season. You create it layer by layer until it finally feels like fall. Find fall your way at Ross.

28:08And I really do. I mean, I remember being 12 and being like, why do I not relate to any of these people? The other 12-year-olds. And I'm like, God, I wish I was the adult. They seem like so much more on my page. Oh, the teachers and I shared a special bond. Yes, of course. Of course. Every little teacher. Yes. A little straight A. Zach. Of course. My legacy. My poor sister. How so? She was two years behind me. And once the teacher went down and saw Zimmerman on that list, they were like, I had your brother. She was just in my shadow. Oh. Poor soul. I bet that was hard for her. Yeah. She's doing well now.

28:42She teaches, of all things. Trauma-informed education in South Carolina public school system. Wow. One of the most incredible, just doing it for all the right reasons. It's a big... I was actually just this morning thinking about how big of a swing it is with teachers. There's like one end. It's very polarized. There's not much in the middle. Caleb Heron hates teachers. Well, listen to the take. Overpaid. Certainly not overpaid, but half of them are the sweetest, most angelic, like truly in it. Sounds like your sister. In it for the right reasons. Want to change the future and be there for kids.

29:15And all you can do is tip your hat and admire them and ask, what more can we do for you? and half of them are the biggest reject losers who like miss high school and middle school and wish they could do it over again so badly. Miss Bryant. I'm saying it's like a... Name her. It's like ends of the spectrum. Name him. And I think there's more of the good ones, but I'm saying it would be ridiculous to pretend that we don't know that some teachers are just like bloodthirsty, like rejected losers who feel bad because they were bullied in high school. Same with parents or people that just have some vendetta and bitterness and jealousy.

29:45Same with comedians. Yes. And we don't even actually have the angelic spectrum. We're all just shades of demons. It's like, how hurt are you is the only. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm not, yeah, I'm not proclaiming to be above. I'm just saying it is an interesting thing, that profession. One of the most interesting teachers I had was my math teacher in high school. And she was a beautiful woman. And at the senior breakfast, she sang That Don't Impress Me Much by Shania Twain. God love. and would cast the cutest boy seniors. Oh, uh-oh. Uh-oh, hey. She was like, she would come over like, that don't impress me much.

30:24Oops. Uh-oh, not that. Not that. She also, she wrote me letters of recommendation that changed my life. She gave me four of them for colleges and I only needed three. Yeah. And it was wrong of me to do, but I wanted to look at what it said because I'm a words of affirmation girl and I want to see what it is. And it goes, Zach is one of the best students I've ever had in all my careers of teaching. She is sure to excel at whatever she does. Wow. I bet that actually did something huge for you. I was like, she copy pasted, but also she knew. Maybe she knew. But also kind of nailed it on accident.

31:00Kind of got it. Accidental affirmation. Let's go. But then Miss Bryant was the bad end of the spectrum. Eighth grade English. Yeah. Evil woman. Had us do resuscitations. What's that? she had us memorize and recite things but she called it a resuscitation yeah how about a dying yeah weird and she gave me my only zero whoa oh evil the tears are coming 30 30 30 she it was back when instead of like reading a book you had to do like a hundred different activities to do the book or whatever little fun things and she gave one way to earn points was to draw a picture of a scene from the book and she gave us all a piece of tracing paper and so in my book it was a beautiful intricate scene that had already been drawn so i used the tracing paper to go over it zero plagiarism whoa my mom love her to death rabble rouser doesn't love me unconditionally but fights when necessary good fight loves a good fight the 2024 election and january 6th wishes she could have been there uh charlie kirk um she wrote i am charlie in the sand in myrtle beach that's that's that's a fun thing for our listeners to know about patty zimmerman she loves a fight she called the principal why is why did my son receive a zero the principal calls the teacher zach gets another chance the next day i drew the most beautiful picture the scene from that she goes to the beach writes i am zach in the sand

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32:34just be zachary just be zach oh yeah she fought for me also came to school and had me removed when condoms were discussed in sex ed which did lead to me using saran wrap once in an early sexual encounter but which works it i don't have a child yeah i don't know i am not father i don't know if it's my poor sperm or the the clinging power of saran wrap hard to say you know they a sponsor uh saran wrap yes good good yeah they run two million of ads on here yeah this you're doing well yeah saran runs two million of ads on here this is you've really this you like the new studio i love it we have much to do but we're we're really getting there everyone's working very hard on it i i the pod is great you may i praise you uh briefly and we might cut it does it make you uncomfortable you've just you're a good egg who's building something really special and doing it your way and bringing people up with you.

33:30And I don't think you're evil. Why was there a question mark on it? Just playful. Yeah, okay. Just being a little playful. I was giving room for a further bit, but I like that. Yeah, okay, that's nice. Everyone has a little evil. Yeah, I clocked myself at like 3%. I went on a date with someone who said 60%. Them? They said 60 % for them? Whoa. She. Yeah, I said they. Did you like that? That was nice. Yeah, but she. Yeah. But I left a really open door there. Wasn't that nice? Open door. And I let you know what's inside the door. Yeah. Behind door number one. Was she? A woman. Open the door? She.

34:06She. It's three doors. Your children listeners won't know this. The Monty Hall problem. It was on Let's Make a Deal. There were three doors. Yeah. And you would open. You pick a door to win a prize. And then he opens up one of the other doors. Let's you know it's not the prize. And then you can either switch or stay. Yeah. What do you think gives you the best odds? Just stay. Exactly. Yeah. No. Switch. Whoa. The door you picked has a one in three chance. The door that you didn't pick has a two out of three chance. Whoa. Because. I said so. Something math. It's mathy. Yeah. Because Monty opening a door, he knew which didn't.

34:46There was more information. It's not just 50-50. Yeah. There's extra information. All of which is to say there's three doors and behind one's a she, one's a he, one's a they. Yeah. The three genders. Kind of a fun way to date. Yeah. A Doors-based dating system. Door-based dating system. Doors-based dating. We're going to start a dating app called Doors. Doors. I do think dating apps should have videos. Either we should do a Love is Blind dating app where you don't get to see the person. Not interesting. You only connect. Okay. Superficial Sally. No, I just think it's important to see someone. I like to see someone's eyes.

35:19I like to see someone's vibe. I like to see the pictures they choose. That's interesting. I think we should do a little video then. yeah i think videos should normalize video hinge has video i also like the voice note oh voice i know voice is fun oh you get so much information from voice voice is good more than pictures even i think for sure you get like pacing tone personality yeah you can fall in love with the voice oh for sure hashtag love is blind her love is blind is her joaquin did this i know joaquin did this everybody now erotica's on ai now yeah i don't like it we're not leaving the house i am you can just on grinder get all the pictures you need from every angle and then just talk to the ai bot i like grinder but i i yeah the point is to i enjoy grinder i actually i frequently have like pretty fun conversations on grinder i'm like if people are willing yeah i'll chit chat on there sometimes if you deviate from the hey hey what's up sup what are you into what are you into you're seeing like a freak for sure and i get that sometimes you're so horny that you can't entertain like a whimsical little combo.

36:23Been there, been that. What do you think about a bar that lets everyone know how horny you are? Sort of mental state. I think that would be really good. I think that should be on Slack. That should be on every application. Hey, does anyone know the status of this report? Someone reach out to Susan. Ooh, she's at a nine. She's really horny. She's rubbing against her desk right now. Let's give her a minute. They should have it on DoorDash. Like, hey, your driver's really horny. honestly I've had some cute DoorDash drivers that I've been like if I knew I would I'd let you in I've had a UPS or two that there's a vibe never sealed the deal I haven't either never with a delivery driver there was one TaskRabbit once I didn't sleep with him but there was a TaskRabbit that I'm like if I wanted it it's on you know what they say about rabbits they fuck like rabbits they made for life no they have so much sex They fuck a lot, yeah.

37:20They're gay. They make, yeah, they're... Rabbits made for life. They're made for life. And they don't get ulcers. What? I don't know. Is that true? Zebras don't. Oh, my God. Because they don't worry because they're animals. Yeah. We worry. We do. As humans. What are you unworried about? What's making you happy? What are you looking forward to? Oh, my God. I'm going to go on a fall foilage cruise. Fun. It's like a four-hour. It was recommended by another comedian, and it's going to be so nice this weekend. You just look at all the trees. There's beers, but I think I'll just have a coffee. And just nature.

37:54We forget about nature. We as in I. We as in me specifically. Me specifically. You forget. You think like, oh, there's nothing here. And it's like, no, there's everything. Where's the tour? It goes up the Hudson, up the Hudson. Fun. I said that twice to make sure. Just to make sure that it's up the Hudson? Yeah. I think it goes up the Hudson. I'm looking forward to that. And then I'm scheming. I am not going home for Thanksgiving this year. Really? Because it's a Trump dinner this year. Because my sister is going with her husband and her kids to Guatemala to visit his family. And then my other sister and I were like, this drops our numbers.

38:34It'd be like six of us and four Trumpers and just me and my sister. And I was like, I don't know if I want to go through that. Yeah, don't do it. Yeah, so big old boundary. So I'm figuring out what I'm going to do. Yeah, these things are supposed to be fun. Yeah. Yeah, you don't have to do things you're not excited about. Has anyone seen this TikTok of the guy who says an alien's in his body and then a kid is like, what do I need to know? And he's like, I've told you everything you need to know. Do what excites you to the best of your ability with no expectation of the outcome. Missed this one.

39:03I missed this one. Oh. I haven't seen this one. I'll do it a couple more times. Yeah, run it by me. Just let's make sure we got it. Yeah. But it seems so silly. Do what excites you is such a simple idea, but for so much of my life and often for people you're doing what you think you're supposed to do to be a good son or a good employee or a good community member it's like do what is exciting to you because that is infectious and it gets everyone excited and then we're changing the world with excitement yeah yes mostly no oh no I come up with a problem with it because I have said that the world would just be a much better place if everyone yeah did what made them happy if everyone truly just focused on what made them happy that actually, we talk about this sometimes in the tenant union, that like, acting in your self-interest will actually most of the time benefit everybody.

39:52When you're talking to working people, when you're talking to billionaires, you obviously can't talk like that. But that's the issue, is when you say, do the thing that would make you excited, some people are excited by being mean and bad. Unfortunately. And I think it's a small number, but that's why it can't be a universal maxim because even though most of us are excited by good and kindness and happiness and joy, there are some people who are excited by nastiness and that's it's tough it's yeah you forget those people exist or i forget that they exist i think they're like over there on the tv or doing awful things in in other cities but it's like oh no they're your mom yeah they're your friend yeah or could be they're yeah they're around and it's it's or they're you on a really really really bad day.

40:36Yeah. Like we all have the capacity for great good and great evil and what makes choosing good powerful is that you reject the evil. Yeah. Do we all have the capacity for great evil?

40:54There's two buttons before you. You're going with that one? No. Already? I'm pointing them out. One kills a man. And one gives you one billion dollars to invest in changing the world. I don't know if this is good or not. So far it seems only really clear cut. You could save a malaria net cost$23 and you could save a million lives. Somebody do the math. Or you kill this one guy. I don't think you got the dilemma right because the question is there's a train the train is the train is going 60 miles an hour right and it leaves new brunswick there's an old lady in the boat right and there's a uh doctor in the boat the but the moral dilemma you posed was there's two buttons one kills one guy and one saves a bunch of lives so what are you gonna do save a bunch of lives well it's money okay why would i do something evil you would kill someone for a billion dollars no you didn't present the buttons right is what i'm telling you you know you're not presenting the problem you think you're presenting present it you said this problem kills them this button kills a man yeah and this button gives you one billion dollars that's not a moral dilemma i was trying to make you take the money right and i knew i needed to say something good to get you to take the money yeah but taking the money is not anywhere equivalent to killing a man that's not the evil what are you gonna do what do you kill the man wait i feel crazy what are you talking about Are you doing a bit right now?

42:30Oh, no. Do it now. No, I'm so sorry. I'm like, Zach, you have not set up a dilemma. I'm crying. No, it's the same button. Okay. One button. There's one button. For a moment, I felt hot. You're welcome. I've been gaslit into... There was always one button, Caleb. What are you talking about? Yeah, yeah. Sierra has all the best active and outdoor brands you need From athletic stuff, like a full-court pickup game Swish! To athletic stuff, like a half-mile stroll Get those steps in! And for morning hikes up the mountain trail Good pace! To nighttime ghost stories from the camping chair What a twist!

43:17Whatever level of active, Sierra loves it all Head to Sierra or Sierra.com for the brands you want At the prices that let you do it all From athletic to athletic-ish, Sierra's got it. Okay, so what are the buttons? There have to be two buttons because a choice has to exist. No, there's one button. You either press it or not. Okay, so that's the choice. Okay, so there's one button. One button kills a man, but you get a billion dollars. No, I would not take that button. But you're going to save millions of lives with your billion. I wouldn't take that button. Okay, then you're good, I guess. I really don't think I would take that button.

43:46I don't think I would. It really depends. You don't think you have evil in you? I think I have evil in me. I think everyone has. I don't know about evil. You don't think you're capable of great evil? Great. Specifically, the great is the thing. Oh, right. And I'm not even asking about myself. I'm asking, do we think everyone has the capacity for great evil? Well, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Do you think if you had complete and total power, you were a billionaire, you could never be tried for a crime? Are you doing only good things? Oh, I think so. Yeah, but I guess I don't know because it hasn't happened to me.

44:13Have you seen Sorry to Bother You? No. Was that Boots Riley who did that? Yeah. Yeah. It's sort of the, he's a, well, go watch it. Just the idea of we all think at this level we will break down the system when we get there. But if you get access to power, do you tear things up from the inside or do you enjoy your access to power? I've had very, very micro experiences of this that are nowhere compared to what we're talking about. Just this week, I was having a crash out to Chance, actually, and a couple other people, about some of the money that we're getting offered at this juncture and who it comes from.

44:52And the money is, it was like a little crazy last year. Like there would be like an amount of money that you're like, yeah, that would be a lot of money. And this year it has been, obviously we'll talk about it off mic. There's reasons I can't talk about it. Sorry, guys. But the specifics of it are like. Saran wrap. It's saran wrap. It's a lot of money. But like a thing that I think is not objectively evil. But like I really don't agree with it and I have concerns about it. Anyway, anyway, there's this very small problem of an ethical dilemma that I've been in this year that has really been tearing me up.

45:22and it's hard because I do good things with my money. Right, right. And so I do go like, oh man, if I took that, I could donate this much to this group and I could take care of this person who needs help. But then also part of the agreement is that I would have to sit here in this chair and tell the people who listen to me to endorse a thing that I don't believe in. Gotcha, gotcha. So it's a very small version, but it's like, yeah, it's a new thing. I mean, is ICE that bad? That's the thing is I'm wanting to run ads for ICE. I want to, but I'm trying to get the number up. I guess to me, the line from small evil to great evil is just like the amount of power that you have.

45:57Right. Like if you're willing to make the evil choice on a micro scale, like you'll do the same. Like the extra money isn't going to, and access to things isn't going to make you a better person. But I think that spectrum is definitional because I think when you're doing small acts of bad, I wouldn't call it evil. Oh. You know what I'm saying? What would you call it? Like a little naughty? Like it's like silly. Silly little girl. I don't know. I don't know. Anyway. Great evil. Look at me. Why would I say that? The button dilemma is one of the funniest things. The button dilemma is really cracking me up still because I'm like.

46:32I can't believe you. Maybe it's the me. I was messing up the meme. There's a meme where there's two buttons. Yeah. And he's sweating, but they're actually the same choice or the obvious choice. I was confusing that with the box with the button. I understand exactly what you mean. Yes. that there's a box with a button. All you have to do is open it and push it and one thing happens or it doesn't. Hey, I was wrong. It's really funny. I've also done, it's like when I try to do, like sometimes when I try to do like spur of the moment, like the moral problems like that, I do get in my head where I'm like, it's like the train is leaving and there's an older woman, but there's a younger person and you press or don't press.

47:10By the way, someone's wearing a white coat off to the side. Oh, interesting. I get them all mixed up sometimes and I'm like, I don't know. I just, I basically get down to being like, what's the white coat guy doing? Are you good or bad? That's what I want to ask. Yeah. And will a bad person say they're bad or will a bad person say they're good? I think it depends. I think some bad people genuinely say they're bad. There's a troll who can never tell a lie. One more time? There's a troll who can never tell a lie. A third time just to make sure we have it? You got it. I'm being mocked. I'm being – I do think my – I do like great evil and great good.

47:44I like big stories from growing up Christian. Like I love God and Satan, these ideas of great evil and great good. I love Lord of the Rings, like Sauron. I love a good villain. Yeah. I just didn't realize they were right there in my life the whole time. Yeah. Also, hot take on God. Say it. You know I love this. I reread Herman Hesse's Damien recently, which comes for the Cain story, saying like, oh, how did that come about? Like maybe actually Cain was a really powerful guy people were afraid of. And so they said they had the mark of Cain, and that's why people vilified him. And I was like, okay, let me do this with another myth.

48:20God and Jesus. Okay. How is it such an act of love to kill your son? Yeah, this doesn't really feel like an act of love. Seems like killing, sacrificing yourself would be an act of love to save your son. And so God and Jesus, to me, feel like very different ideas of how to exist in the world. Jesus preached love and acceptance and inclusion in the Gospel of Thomas, which was discovered at the Nakamadi Library, but not kept in the Bible that we know and love, was about how there's a divine light within us all, not just with Jesus. And Jesus being God was later, too. And so God is this, like, angry, toxic guy who picks favorites, Cain and Abel.

49:04God, to me, is the original narcissist. People like this version better, yes, of course. And so, yeah, people are drawn to God is evil. Jesus was good. Nobody wants to be Jesus and everyone thinks they're God. Because Jesus is harder. Yeah, being Jesus sucks. You get sent to die. Yes. And you have to be doing that, willing to preach that people are good. Yeah. The people that believe to come back to end Frank Jesus and Zach, the people... Can I slip myself in there? Yeah, you can. Marianne Williamson. Is she allowed to get in there? people that are preaching good oh she's still alive yeah people that are they haven't got her people that are preaching the importance of love and acceptance and inclusion are people come for them yeah god yeah so that's my hot take on god and jesus that i'm still mulling over i think that makes a lot of sense i like that take i like thinking about that the difference between the two just pokes a little hole in it and jesus being like why did you forsake me god that feels kind of important yeah like we're kind of we put that in there we're kind of overlooking it yeah so maybe jesus wasn't god yeah i don't think he was yeah okay maybe there is no god you think is that where you're at with it oh i did listen to a clip of yours about this i'm i'm i'm not uh like evangelically atheist i've surrendered to i surrender to the universe i think god is the dead name of the universe we say universe now and just like hey there's vibes out there there are things in this world beyond my comprehension and control and if i put out good vibes i've noticed synchronicities happen i can think of a friend right now claire and i bet i look at my phone after this and she's texted me and you think like oh that was random it's like maybe it wasn't random yeah maybe like you thought of her for some special reason or so i'm i'm thinking of a i'm thinking of a hot sweet man in his 30s that loves his family and has a good job I bet he texts me right after this.

51:10Open your eyes, sweetheart. Man? Gender queer these days. That's what I thought. Yeah, I was going to say. Let's be careful. You put me on Transwatch a few months ago. I put you on Transwatch and I let you know. I have a couple of watch lists in my life. It just makes, as a gender queer bisexual, people have to love me. I just moved a friend from depression watch to lesbian watch. You? I moved her over. Oh, a friend. Yeah. Oh, a lot of overlap. Yeah. I thought maybe she was giving signs of depression when I was checking in. It's actually just lesbianism. Well, I think she, yeah, it might be. We're going to find out.

51:38Oh, that's exciting. We're going to find out, but I've moved her. She's on a new watch list. Adelaide, thank you for clocking my own misgendering of myself. That was beautiful. I was just checking in. Yeah. Happy to know. Yeah. I haven't, I don't, why would anyone want to be a part of, no offense, the toxic legacy of masculinity? That's how I know I'm a man is I'm like, I would not be over here if I had any other. Oh, that's interesting. Right, right, right. You think I'm not humiliated to be a part of the team? This is a humiliating team to be a part of. You guys have done some, tell a man, no, get ready for a show.

52:08That was rude. One of the funniest things you've done in recent memory is that you, I don't know if you will fall in love. Because it's not a drag, but it is an observation. One of the funniest things you've done is come into this podcast and say, I had a transformative summer that I refused to talk about. And it put pieces together in a way that I didn't know was still possible. and then to continue to reference it throughout the episode is a legitimately hilarious bit to be like I had a transformative summer that changed the way I think about what I'm capable of and I don't want to talk about it and I want to do this because I think this is actually a really brilliant and captivating thing to do and I mean that I didn't mean it as a bit but you're right it is quite a funny bit I can feel what's actually happening is that you want to talk about things that you know you shouldn't and I do that sometimes where I'm like I'm not going to talk about this but if I was just know yes oh my god well yeah yeah but it's my own i have healing to do around it and i want to be really intentional about the words i do use when i am ready to talk about i'm supporting the boundary it feels very like i'm yeah on like a talk show and they're trying to get me i'm like i'm not ready to talk about it and i'm not but also i brought it up that's the funny part i'm supporting the boundary fully i will not i will not go into it but i do think i do her name was susan when his name was cory here's a question for you because you're this is kind of on on that topic you're somebody who talks about a lot of personal stuff on stage and you're very incisive on stage you're very insightful you have what i think to be a really beautiful mix of uh funny first and foremost thank god but then also like actually insightful interesting important things to say about the world we live in and the way we exist in it how do you decide when something raw that did actually affect you is like ready to go to stage i i don't know you don't know it's a great i think my my i err on the side of real time share how my day went and that part of that i think is the charge of the comedian like hey tell me about your day you're sacrificing your personal privacy so that we can all have a laugh or gain some beautiful insight but i think i need to learn some boundaries around what I keep for myself, what I don't, how soon, how raw.

54:22I think like some space is nice. I think John Marco said about mentioning his girlfriend in material that like the thing has to be resolved. Yeah. Like it can't be live. Yeah. And so maybe that's the move. And also I've learned to add a little space because I did tweet like, uh like yeah i can't wait me when i don't want to do the thing yeah and when i went on john marco's podcast the producer found that tweet like the day i was going on the podcast where i replied to an email like yeah i can't wait and so you want to add a little plausible deniability between the activities of your day and going on stage like if i go on stage tonight and like went on the worst podcast you guys have ever heard then i that wouldn't yeah that'd be fine oh i would Never.

55:11Yeah. I'm enjoying myself. I know you are. But I do think sometimes people, I found. How do you approach? How do I approach when to take stuff to the stage? I feel similar. It's kind of like electrical currents. Like if a wire is cut and the end is still like sparking, it needs to at least be capped. That's not to say that if you took the cap off, the current couldn't flow again. It's not to say that the thing is completely resolved and I'm never going to have negative emotions about it again. Or that I'm completely healed of whatever thing has occurred. But I think the way John Marco put it is frankly even better.

55:39of like, yeah, it needs to not be like a live wire of a topic in your life when you take it to the audience. Because also, first and foremost, I think you need to make sure that you're in a place to be funny about it. Yes. It is simply not any audience's responsibility to like caretake for you through whatever shit you're going through. You better be making them laugh. Right, stand-up's not therapy. They pay money to be at the show. Yeah. Within a set, I do think there is a little space for a frayed edge or two, but don't make it the whole thing. Although, I feel like one of the great, there's a great set of Tig coming on stage like the day she gets her breast cancer diagnosis.

56:20Yeah. So there is a power and a rawness of being fucking real. And you can smell it when the comic is just doing their act and they're not with you. And so it's sort of your right. You do whatever you want. But you're building a career And if you're, you know, just the guy who comes on stage and talks about, wait, now I want to do a bit where like, hey, everybody, I had a transformative summer, but we can't talk about it. Yeah. I mean, that is a really good bit. Can I have it? For sure. I think throughout the set being like, oh, God, if I told you guys about this summer. Oh, if I were willing to get into it.

56:57Reminds me of this summer. Ma 'am, ma 'am, ask me about this summer. Sorry. I can't. Not taking questions at this time. Yeah, but Tig also, I will say, by the way, this like all other things is a rule for myself. My rules are for me. My rules are not for other people. Other people are allowed to do whatever they want. My rules are for Caleb. I think Tig is an interesting example because Tig as a performer is somebody who's so balanced and so joke-driven to begin with. I trust Tig to go and do the cancer set at Largo. You know what I mean? Trust is the word. Yeah. Does the audience trust that you're okay?

57:32Yes. Yes, and there's also, there's an issue with less skilled comedians trying to pull off masterful stuff too soon. Ooh, a thousand percent. It's like, well, you're not good enough to behave that way. Yeah. And that's okay. There's nothing mean in saying that. You're not Tig Notaro. Tig was a very, very accomplished, like, dyed-in-the-wool, toured, successful, skilled, talented comedian when she did that set. Almost did they. Sorry, Tig. What is the, I'm trying to think if there's a metaphor. or in like painting or another medium for this like, but maybe there isn't. Maybe there isn't. This is a perfect time to ask you, Zach Zimmerman, what is so true to you?

58:14You don't get to ask questions of the barista. Ooh, tell me what you mean by that. I feel like I was, it's mostly in the Pacific Northwest. No offense, I love Portland. But whenever I'm in a rush, I'm always behind someone who's always like, what is coffee? and i'm like and then the priest will be like well we take b and it's like no ma 'am no the thing that is so funny so i think a little but what's hard is i love i love these little like micro interactions that we have that do breed community i do think is important to like have those little moments but not at the checkout line yeah can i praise myself you sure kid i was out uh dunkin donuts and i got my coffee and i saw a woman get her coffee and she had a tiny little grimace when she got it and i was like oh did they mess it up she's like yeah i didn't want this cream on top and i was like let them know they'll remake it for you she's like oh i don't want to make a big deal i was like let them know and she let them know and they remade it for her yeah and i i'm proud of myself for i don't know just those little yeah i think i know Oh, maybe this is what's so true.

59:22A little nudge is very powerful. Yeah. A little nudge. My friend, but also careful, because a little nudge can be too powerful if you're unsure of who you are. Like, hey, go in there. My friend will nudge me, and I will listen. So just, we got to look out for each other and give each other little nudges like that. Yeah, noticing is love. Noticing the little grimace is loving. Noticing is love. And then there's an additional act of love. Like, if you had noticed the grimace and just given her a smile to say, I saw your grimace, that would be love. A further act of love is saying, what's the grimace about?

59:55Yeah. Did they mess up your coffee? And even further, you made like six or seven acts of love in that moment. I made it to third base. Yeah. You went to third base with love. That wink. Third base with love. Third base with love. I do think, yeah, love is listening. Love is noticing. Love is, I use the bell hooks definition, commitment to one's spiritual growth. The willingness to extend oneself. That took a little out of my day. it took an extra 10 seconds yeah i guess i did love that woman that was love yeah i am bi i'm deciding that was love you're by um you're by care and love it is funny when you're falling for someone you don't get to say the word love like i care about you like you're shy to tell someone like i love you are you me yeah oh no i girl oh i went on a first day recently i was like i I caught myself because I was like I shouldn't be doing that but I was like I can see a world which is very which might be very similar to this world yeah I fall madly and deeply in love with you could almost be the exact world we're living in yeah might be and then later later did I say I love you I won't say but the idea of someone saying I love you and me saying back I can see a world no I say no I know but could you imagine it as the response that's dark you love me i there are universes in which there we live in many worlds are you familiar with the marvel universe there are planes of existence can i start there yeah um thank you for saying that the are you familiar with string theory right and vibrations yes exactly zach did i i don't think i did the assignment no you did a great job you don't get to ask questions of the barista is a great so true and i'm very if there's no line look it does beg the question who then do you ask but that's not important on this show google right or a friend right a trusted confidant i think i think if i really dove into it i'm team you get to ask the barista questions even though it when there's my morning even though i know i know it sucks i just why i didn't bring it up originally true story i'm in an airport and an old lady is like well is that problematic that i had to make her an old lady was she old yeah well then you didn't make she was like what's a latte and so now i'm kind of charmed by the idea of i was gonna say you're making a 65 year old life and not knowing what a latte is uh i need to invent an argument that makes mine okay um hold on i already said you're behind jeff bezos yeah yeah yeah he's like where do you get your beans from the specific city and county now bitch yeah the bitch would definitely take it over zach i have a segment for you you ready wait this is an act of love this is an act of love So, I'm going to read you 15 statements.

1:02:43You're going to tell me as quickly as you can if you think what I just said is true or false. If you get 10 or more correct, we're going to give you 50 US dollars. Wow. And may I ask? Now, yes. Is it random what is true and not? Or did someone sort of make it so that there's some back and forth? They're objective trivia questions. But then the order of them. Will you deliver them to me in a random order? You're about to find out. They're randomized. Okay. There are two NFL. I have to get 10 right? You have to get 10 right. Okay. There are two NFL teams in the state of New York. Wait, we can't talk about what happened this summer.

1:03:23That's the second one. You went through a transformative this summer. Tell me about it. What's your perfect day? There are two NFL teams in the state of New York. False. False. There are three. Bank of America has more locations in the U.S. than any other bank. false false it's chase uranus is the coldest planet in the solar system

1:03:47true that is true william fleming high school won state men's basketball in 2007 this is where i went to high school we won what state and men's basketball in 2007 i graduated in 2006 i have no idea true it is true every founding member of the band aerosmith is still alive false true Bald Eagles mate for life. False. True. Spike TV is older than MTV. True. False. A group of ladybugs is called a loveliness. Yes, true. Even if it's not. Thank God it's true. The Princeton Triangle Club was founded in 1905. True. False. 1891. Skittles are banned in Norway. True. True. Reddit was originally a book review website.

1:04:35True. False. Oh. The sentence 19 letters long is 19 letters long. The sentence 19 letters long is 19 letters long? Or words? Letters. The sentence 19 letters long. That's the sentence? Is 19 letters long. 19 letters long. N-I-N - Stop doing the math and answer. True. It is true. Lawrence Fishburne is 6 '5". False. False. He's 6 '0". Snapchat was discontinued in 2021. False. That is false. The current mayor of Roanoke, Virginia is Travis Fleetwood.

1:05:13True. False. Joseph L. Cobb. How do you do? Catch and strays. Nine. No! Wait. I want to litigate. Which ones did I get wrong? There's nothing to litigate. That could get me out of a lot of minds. There's nothing to litigate. That could get me out of a lot. Don't tell anybody that. So don't sweat it. I thought one of the questions I'm ready to answer. To answer? The question I refused to answer earlier. Oh, okay. There's two buttons in front of you.

1:05:49One does nothing. One kills somebody. Zach, thank you so much for doing this. This was lovely. You don't want to know what my perfect day is? I would love to know what your perfect day is. I thought you were doing a bit about your summer and I wasn't going to actually push you on it. Oh, no. What is your perfect day? October 3rd. Okay. It's not too hot. It's not too cold. It's really cute. All you need is a light jacket. A bit of a deflection, but really cute. I was thinking about it while I was peeing. It involves coffee and maybe an omelet. Ooh. What kind of omelet? Ooh, my God. Because you know I'm ham, onions, and cheese.

1:06:23Well, I'm a vegetarian because I care about the sentient beings other than humans on the And I don't. We've made that clear. I love cheese. And maybe a little salsa on it. A little creme fraiche. Ooh, that's nice. A little sour cream. Yeah. And sweet potato fries. Yeah. Or really good home fries, like a twice fried, twice baked home fries, English muffin. Yeah. Butter, jelly. And there should probably be some sex. In your perfect day? For my perfect day. Yeah. I think the perfect day starts with a little. We'll get you some. Because I don't know about you guys. I wake up a little ready to go. I do, but morning sex is a chore of all chores.

1:07:02morning sex is like asking me to run a marathon I'm like I need to brush my teeth, I need to shower, I need to stretch it's just too morning sex is like what? no, it's the best I don't like it, and I don't like when someone tries to have morning sex with me without having like brush their teeth and what not oh yeah, you gotta go brush little mints you don't have a little sex corner with mints and condoms and a gallon of lube something like that yeah giant you know at a stadium when they've got like yeah ketchup mustard mayonnaise yeah and i have the little paper cups with it too oh my god just bring a paper cup of loop to the bedroom uh zach this was so much fun thank you for doing it oh i had a blast tell people where they can find you um i live at boundary i live at boundary um i'm on instagram zz double zz that's easy the word double and zz um that's the big place instagram tiktok Twitter sorry and your stand up special which is on YouTube yeah I watched my stand up special called Surprise Me it's about my search for a definition of love and Dunkin Donuts is there and then I have a book that came out two years ago called Is It Hot in Here or Am I Suffering for All Eternity for the Sins I Committed on Earth you can get that on bookshop.com or ask your local independent bookstore to order it for you yeah oh yeah thanks for doing it Zach thanks for having me that was a hate gum podcast

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From the publisher

Welcome! This week’s guest is the hilarious Zach Zimmerman! Zach and Caleb talk moral dilemmas, parental expectations, good vs. evil, praise, so much more! 

Join our Substack for an exclusive post-episode chat with Zach and other bonus content!  https://calebsaysthings.substack.com/ 

Follow Zach! @zzdoublezz

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Follow Caleb! @calebsaysthings 

Produced by Chance Nichols @chanceisloud

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So True is a Headgum podcast, created and hosted by Caleb Hearon. The show is produced by Chance Nichols with Associate Producer Allie Kahan. So True is engineered and edited by Nicole Lyons. Kaiti Moos is our VP of Content at Headgum. Thanks to Luke Rogers for our show art and Virginia Muller our social media manager.

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