Zoe Lister-Jones is Carrying Secrets

27:30Oh yeah. Um, that's really interesting. So yeah, the codependent friendship in your twenties can really, it's a cock block. Well, it's a cock block and it's also a very confusing. Yeah. I'm, I'm just glad you had yours with a gay man. Who was yours with? Well, I just mean that most of the women I know have had that intense psychotic codependent friendship with another woman and they are varying levels of queerness and god help you if two straight women get into a let's just say lesbian codependent friendship yeah it gets really fucking confusing very fast and having to be on the perimeters of that and like i feel like do you know in movies after something big has happened there's always that one non-speaking character who runs in with one of the blankets and wraps it around the person that's me with lesbian codependent friendships i'm just waiting with the blanket like whenever you're ready you know what i mean yeah yeah yeah i have had to i've had to bring the blanket to so many girls yeah yeah yeah that are like that she's just my friend it's like okay if you say you're really upset she couldn't go to dinner you know what i mean so something more might be going on but i'm glad yours with a gay man because it's very clear it was very clear still bad but clear bad but clear and that's sort of the theme of my life bad but clear hey i understand what's going on and i don't like it um yeah yeah but it but you know and then i um i started dating uh i started dating yeah men who were or i started dating a boy in college he was sort of my first boyfriend and and um yeah i'll say it it was like he had he had attempted suicide and um then went to the psych ward and that's when i decided you're the one for me yeah yeah you said hey because he had a crush on me before that yeah before the suicide yeah attempt sorry yes yes before the attempt yeah um and then i it took i mean it really speaks it's a lot of what we're unpacking it's like i i yeah was attracted to the chaos i think you liked you thought you were like this is fun that he's gone to the ward i didn't think it was fun i was very concerned for him yeah okay but i but it's interesting that that was like that's the guy that's what flipped the switch that's that's what flipped the switch yeah yeah um and and that yeah yeah and i think then that's something that i sort of continued to repeat yeah to varying degrees of like yeah being attracted to probably the chaos of my childhood if we're really getting into it and i've been in enough therapy if you want to talk um if we really want to talk about where this is from just down the block from here starting around four it was really chaotic yeah um yeah so i think that anyway um but but then he was like my first boyfriend and treated me pretty poorly and set off sort of a chain reaction of toxic dysfunctional relationships yeah yeah and um how are you doing now how's it how's it going now the way you wanted to get out of that i don't um no no no One thing about me, I will stay in it for as long as you'd like to.

30:43It means nothing to me. That's the scary part. You know what's sick about me is I actually had to stop myself from asking, why do you think he tried to kill himself? What happened? That's where I really wanted to go. And I decided for your sake not to. I'll be in it all day. Yeah. He's thriving now. So he's doing well. Nice. Just wanted to say that for the listeners out there. He's in the Senate. Yeah. He's the senior senator from South Carolina. He's James Tallarico. go um but i no i um what was your question how are things going now do you feel like you've made some progress on this are you sexing love addiction has that ever entered your situation okay cool just checking i mean not i've not been diagnosed totally but it's definitely something that uh i'm intrigued to explore once i get the time because the calendar's pretty bad once i get through the once i get through the treatments i'm in now i'd love to walk in on love and sex Lock in on that kind of stuff.

31:36Well, I mean, I do think that most, many people are afflicted without really, you know, by definition knowing what it means. Totally. I think, yeah. Especially like at one point or another in one's life, there has been an addiction to sex or love. I think most of our problems, most of what people refer to as like dating sucks or dating is so hard. my feeling is that most of the time that is like undiagnosed things going on in the community like you're you're around a lot of people that are going through stuff they don't even know about i think if everyone knew more about their stuff dating wouldn't be so hard but so many people in dating don't know what's wrong with them what they're looking for what's wrong with the person they're with and wrong i i mean like just really what's going on yeah like why are you behaving like that why do you why do you get turned off when someone is interested in you does anyone have an answer to that?

32:34Ask me for a friend. Does anyone have an answer to that? When someone likes you back, why is it such a turnoff to all of us?

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38:13Here's my current theory. And I don't know if this is my so true, but here's my current theory. Is that like, I think in relationships to a greater or lesser extent, many of us are just looking for evidence that we are unworthy of being loved. Say it again. It was too good. I can't repeat it. But no, I think we're sort of all, maybe not all, but many of us are looking for evidence that we are not worthy of being loved. At least that'll speak for myself, not the community in general. He's going to push back and I can sense it. No, I'm really considering it. Do you know what I mean though? Like that it's something that I've come to very recently in my life because I fight really hard for romantic relationships, but I think at my core, I am always kind of looking for the ways in which someone could reject me or the ways in which I might not be lovable because I think that is unfortunately my core belief.

39:25That you're unlovable? Yes, and on a deep level. Oh, I find you so easy to love. Thanks. No, and I appreciate that. I find you so easy to love. You're talking about only romantic love? No, no. I mean, look, I think I am a lovable person. And I love you. And I love to be loved by you. Yeah. But I think that there is something like that's like sort of molten core, like deeper. Deeper than like what I can know. It's like what I can know. You know what I mean? And what's in there? It's like deep. It's like. What's that part? That maybe I, that, that I don't actually believe I'm lovable. The, so the, the really deep molten core.

40:05But down here, do I know it? Huh. You know? And I think that's like, that's why we're in all the therapy is to sort of just chip away at that thing. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know her. I'm not in there with her. I know. I wish I could. She's little. I wish I could tell her. Yeah. I wish I could tell her how easy she is to love. Thanks. And how loved she is. But that's hard. That's really hard. I don't know. I guess I don't, yeah, I don't know how you get her out of there. I mean, it's like, I think, and this is some more therapy talk, but I do think it is like acts of self-love.

40:43I think it's not seeking it from the outside world. It's figuring out how to be really sweet to yourself. Yeah. And that's something that I really admire in you. I think you are very sweet to yourself. I try. Yeah. I try to be. I'm getting better at it. Yeah. I think I was very hard on myself for a long time and realized it wasn't really working. Or not even that. It's like my life is great. Yeah. This is the problem with anxiety and negative self-talk and things like that is like if your life is going well, there's at least some evidence that it's working. You know what I mean? You go like, oh my God, I wish I wasn't so anxious, but fuck if I wasn't so anxious, would I have gotten that done on time or would I be where I'm at?

41:21so there's like some level of like reinforcement that like it's kind of working out you know absolutely but i realized like i think i could get just as much done i think i could show up just as well for my friends if i was doing all the same things i'm doing just in a sweeter way to myself you know i mean just being nicer to myself yes but that realization was hard to come by i think for a long time it was like you have to be mean to yourself in order to get things done yes do you know what I mean well I think because I have a similar um experience as you like in my childhood where I was like I must be successful in order to like right the wrongs yeah of like or just like I had seen how my parents are both artists and they were always like broke and struggling and I was like that cannot be me um and so I think I also put a lot of attention on work and being the best and like perfectionism but perfectionism while it can lead you to success and acclaim can also lead to negative self-talk right because there's such a sense of like do better do better yeah you know so how's it going now do you feel good i do i feel good now yeah nice i think um yeah life is pretty good yeah i mean the world's on fire but i feel like I'm um I've found many things that bring me happiness in my life which is really nice yeah yeah what what do you think I feel like there's so many people who listen to the show that are we're having an earnest episode me and you is it too earnest not at all I love an earnest episode I we're having an earnest episode so I'm curious like if somebody's gotten this far into the episode they're down with the earnestness oh god they're like down with the earnestness because I think we have really silly episodes that I get to about this point and I go like, I can kind of say any silly, stupid, goofy shit I want because if they stuck around, they're here for it.

43:14Yeah. I feel the same way about earnestness that I'm like, we've had a very earnest talk. So I think there are, I know that there are a lot of people who listen to and watch the show that are, you know, probably in pretty similar positions to the one that you were in when you were maybe at NYU. Like they're like early twenties. Yeah. Yeah. They're going crazy. Yeah. They're fucking people they shouldn't be fucking. Yeah. They're anxious. They're perfectionist. they're they haven't figured a lot of things out yet what like yeah what do you think is the thing that you would tell that version of yourself now knowing everything you know having been through what 78 kinds of therapy yeah uh what would you what would you tell her what would be helpful um maybe someone will get something what would be helpful i mean i think

44:02you know go toward what makes you feel good that and and sometimes that's a learning curve so it's like sometimes something can make you feel good and then makes you feel really bad and that's okay too that's all right yeah and that's okay most of the time those two things are kind of in a venn diagram yeah um but like yeah i would say like go easy on yourself i you know like at every age you are, I feel like it's the oldest you feel you will ever be. You know, like when I was in my twenties, I was like, well, this is it. Um, nothing else to learn. You know, I got to get it really right. And it's like, I would just be easy on myself, enjoy, um, my collagen and sort of the lift, the general lift that's on the face.

44:50And, um, and like, yeah, I would say like, don't just don't accept crumbs that's what i would tell my my my 20 year old self don't accept crumbs you're worth more than crumbs and go after the people that like really see you and um lift you up and make you feel like happy don't chase the thing that is like um going to make you feel going to increase the negative self-talk we have enough of that yeah so i think surround yourself with people and work and experiences that increase the positive self-talk yeah i think also be honest with yourself some people don't need to hear this some of you do not need more positive self-talk you know we got to really be honest correct this is the problem with all like advice and inspiration is like you got to be honest with yourself there are some things that i hear that i hear someone say really convincingly on the internet that some like beautiful older woman with the right pair of glasses is she's like you have got to and then she'll say something that i'm like that is so beautiful and sounds so correct and then i do a little quick self-inventory and i go that wasn't for you caleb oh and that's you don't need that yeah correct do you need part of i think this is part of the problem that we're in right now culturally is not enough people are going was that for me yeah i need to hear that do i need to respond to this was this meant for me do i need to project my life experiences onto that thing I just consumed, not enough of us are taking a second to go like, that one doesn't apply to me.

46:26So just figure out what you need. Cause there are some people that have way too much positive self-talk and they're not having, it would, it would actually be helpful if every once in a while an anxious, maybe critical voice said, do less, do less of that. So I think, and I mean this with love, just figure out which one you need. Yes. And I will say that the algorithm, because you see all these, like, there's so many people giving advice on my algorithm, obviously. And they're all like, if you're seeing this, this is for you. And that's not correct. Not necessarily. No. I agree with you. Some people need to tone it down.

47:04Yeah. Some people could use maybe a little more humility. Some people. Some people. I'm not here to say who it is. I'm just saying. But those who are like too much or whatever, whoever the crowd is that you're speaking to. Yeah. That ultimately just comes from actually being insecure. Totally. Don't you think? But I'm like the solution, if the goal is wellness, peace with yourself, genuine happiness as often as you can have it, the solution is not going to be the same for everybody. and the person, like the egomaniac who hears that, if you know that you have a big ego, there's nothing wrong with that.

47:42We can work with that. That's okay. But if you have a big ego and you know that about yourself genuinely when you're alone with your thoughts and no one else has to know that you know it, if you hear someone say, work on being kinder to yourself, there's a different way to apply that than sweeter self-talk. You're probably already being pretty sweet to yourself. Do you know what I mean? There's a different way to be kinder to yourself. So give me the inner monologue for that person. Sometimes being kinder to yourself means like, hey, ask other people some questions and stop talking so fucking much.

48:11Copy. I 100 % agree. So when you hear someone say maybe like, take up as much space as you need. No. That's not for you. Less space. That's not for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You work on taking up less because your natural setting is more. Yes. Do you know what I mean? A hundred percent. I just want people to be realistic. That's all. Yeah. And I'm trying to do it for myself. I hear things sometimes and I go, that's not for you. like I struggle to keep in touch with people it's a thing I'm really working on do you? yes I keep in touch as much as I can I do okay but it's a huge you know it's a big list of people I'd like to be keeping in touch with I could do better with people that are close to me and I want to do better and so when I hear people be like you don't owe anybody anything turn that phone off I'm like ooh that's already my kind of default I need to let that one slip out of my memory a little bit I'm curious about you.

49:02You respond. I respond. You're not good at responding anymore? I'm kind of in my don't respond era. But here's why, though. I'm a little bit of... Not to you. Because I will say, and here's the deal, you don't ask me for much. The phone has become kind of a nightmare for me where every time I open it, there are 70 messages minimum across platforms and 65 of them, somebody wants something. What do they want? anything can you can you uh can you buy this can you share this can you post this can i come on your show can are you going to be in town can you do my show can you yeah yeah yeah uh hey the this uh this person's waiting to hear back about this we need to schedule a meeting with this person and some some of it is necessary and great yeah i don't want a life where nobody wants anything from me yeah but i'm starting to get a little bit like i'm starting to get to the point where i'm like i'm just really not going to respond to that yeah because i there are times when it's inappropriate.

50:02If you asked me for absolutely anything, I would be like, for sure. But there are people who I haven't talked to in months or years. We're not really particularly close. And they're asking for something. And they're asking for something that's like, that's kind of a big ask. And there's nothing wrong with asking, do your thing. I'm not mad at them for asking, but I am like, I think as much as you get to ask, I feel like I should get to just not respond at a certain point. But I also don't fully believe that is the issue. It's hard because it's not how I operate. You know what I mean? Yes. But I'm also like, it's making me miserable responding to all this shit.

50:34So something needs to change. It's finding a balance. Yeah. Yeah. And prioritizing who you want to respond to. Yeah. But I will say that I do, I admire how you respond. Because I respond how you respond. At least to me. I'm a responsive. I don't leave my friends not responded to. Nor do I. For days, days, days, days, weeks. That's a tough one for me. I hate that. It's a tough one for me. So I am an active, I like a quick response time. That's the thing is sometimes I don't get a response from someone about something that isn't even me asking for something and they're 200 times less busy than I am.

51:09And I go, you mean to tell me you can't text me back? I know it. You've got nothing going on. That's right. It makes me feel crazy. I might. Right now we're going to pause it and it's going to play piano music and it's just going to be a scroll like an in memoriam. An in memoriam of all of your less busy friends. Here's everyone that has less going on than me that should have texted me back. yeah i got it it makes you feel crazy crazy like what do you mean crazy you have you have you're not working right now you don't have a partner you don't have a kid you don't have like a parent in hospice not even a pet you don't have don't have a dog or a cat you run around the house no and you're telling me you can't get back to me about lunch come on something's up yep something's going on that's right i'm calling the cops we need that person needs more negative self-talk well i mean i don't want them to go negative but i certainly want them to go critical it's a fine line start asking some questions yeah yeah yeah yeah no i don't care whatever yeah no i know i really don't care i really i'm telling you after a 10 minute tyrant actually i really don't care everything i just said a big thing a big thing i've been doing lately is i'll go i'll go on like a three minute michelle has heard a lot of this i'll go on like a three minute rant about something and i'll be like that's what i would say if i was someone who cared about that I'm like whatever man I don't give a fuck whatever Whatever forget it Everyone's doing their own thing I need to get on a bike in the sunshine ASAP and we'll sort it That's right That's right that's all I need Remember when I had to kill all those spiders for you That just came to my mind Do you remember that I forgot about it until just this moment That was crazy There were probably 40 to 50 spiders That's not exaggeration, right?

52:53We stayed at an Airbnb in Amsterdam on a body of water. Yes. I wanted to swim. Yes, and you did. And you said, can you come up to my room? And I said, what for? And you said, the spiders. And I said, huh? I go up there. There are spiders lining the walls. Living. It was. Crawling. But were you impressed with how calm I was? You weren't. You have a revisionist. I was. You were shaking. No. Zoe. I feel like I went down like this. Hey, Caleb. Can you come upstairs and just check on something for me? Yeah. Do you want to see what I saw? Okay. Okay, you be me. I'll be you. Okay.

53:33Caleb. Can you come upstairs for a second? I want you to check on something for me. Thank you. You know, it's not a huge dip, but people will note the difference. There's a twitch. There's a rattling, radiating fear. Yes, yes, yes. it's basically like if i it's the way i would have expected you to come down if there was a man in the closet i would be like caleb come upstairs real quick um i killed them no i that actually speaks to sort of my general demeanor in my life it's like i believe i'm calm and i'm actually like hey um can i talk to you for a second then i messaged the host you sure did i messaged the and I said, hey, not trying to be crazy or anything, but we've had to kill so many spiders.

54:19Hundreds of spiders. I'm wondering if maybe you send someone. She goes, oh yeah, we sent a guy over for that, but it's a new build and the ecology is still kind of getting figured out. So there's just going to be a lot of spiders. Maybe something we put in the listing. I feel like you pushed back. I did. And you said like, this is absolutely unacceptable. I said, that's crazy. We paid a lot of money to stay here. I don't know that they ended up doing anything for us. I don't think they did anything for us. Yeah, but I at least said my piece. You did, and that's what I love about you. You did, and then afterwards you were like, actually, I don't care.

54:51Yeah, true. I was like, you know what, fuck it. We actually like these spiders. I'm going for a swim. First of all, I have COVID. First of all, our brain fog. There were probably no spiders. First of all, I have COVID. I've killed most of the spiders. I'm going for a COVID swim. If anybody needs me. We were, I mean, I do have a thing with spiders where I sort of like to I don't like to, but I accept them as my cohabitants. Not me. You don't. Not me. And that's why I called you up. They fear me. Because I can't kill a spider. They fear me. I don't care what they're doing. People say, oh, they're eating the flies.

55:26Don't care. No. Zoe, what's so true to you? You didn't think of one. You know, no, I did. Well, it's sort of in line with what we've been talking about. And Rob Rauch kind of, that's the snake wrangler. He sort of brings me here too. I do think it's like the end I hope that for just the community at large it's sort of the end of the era of the fuck boy yeah that's my that's what I that's what's so true to me I believe it is the end knowing your history you better hope it's the end of the era of the fuck they well I was gonna say I've seen the situations you find yourself in fuck boys have long not been the problem the they them's are the greatest offenders they are neither boys nor girls but they do fuck You need to champion the abolition of the fuck they.

56:11The abolition of the fuck they is, I would say it's, I don't know if it's the end of the fuck they. That's the problem. No, the fuck them will continue to be a problem. The fuck them are still fucking them. But the fuck boys, I think they're out to pastor. You think so? I think they might be. I think Timote has sort of like, he's ushering them out. Yeah, but you're a huge fan of his. Huge. Yeah. So it's a hard time for me. I can't weigh in on the discourse about him. We will not. And we will not. We're not getting into it. We will not get into it. but I'm just saying let me just say this I don't give a fuck me neither there's been like five crises lately that I'm like five like big internet moments that I'm like you gotta be kidding me we care about this I know I can't believe it and shout out to ballet and opera but I will say we're not gonna talk about it we're not even gonna go there it's so dumb I don't care but I will say that I think like yeah he was sort of the the flag bearer was he absolutely what did you say I thought he was viewed as such a like sweet artsy boy i didn't know he was you does like a fuck boy oh he's a fuck them he's a fuck them he's they them he's the fuck them timothy shaw may they them reveal my so true i'm so true

57:22um yeah he doesn't win the oscar and he goes you know what fuck it i'm they them what now that's his that's how he gets out of his his soft cancellation yeah i also cancel i mean the bar for canceling. I thought we were past this. I thought we were past canceling people over nothing. He's not canceled. I know he's not, but even the, even anyone caring at all, I just was like, Oh my God. Here's what I need. Here's what I'll say. I mean, it's not about the specific issue. No, I need most of the people on the internet. Yeah. Very quickly to go outside. That's right. And find a real problem. I want you to find a real problem to have.

58:00Yeah. I want you to find a real problem to have. I want you to pick something that's going on. There's plenty to pick from. I want you to pick one of the real problems that exist. And I want you to get as excited about that as you are about this dumb fucking shit that you get mad about, about your little people in your phone that you love. But don't you think that, and this is the gossip in me. Say it. We need frivolous gossip in order to cope with how horrific the actual world is. Gossip. It should be funny and lighthearted and fun. Correct. It shouldn't be like genuine screeds and thought pieces about something like that.

58:37That's not, to me, it's like it needs, the problem is, yes, we do need frivolous gossip right now more than ever. Not more than ever. We need silly frivolous gossip. I'm not going to say what, but there was a really fun one recently that I'll talk to you about off camera that I've kind of caught some heat about. We mentioned it on this show. There's some fun gossip about celebrities that I think we can have a lot of fun with. The couple at the Coldplay concert. Oh, yeah. People were upset. people cared people cared well of course you love cheating I was like I bet they're having the night of their fucking lives I mean imagine cheating at the Coldplay concert I bet they had the fucking time of their lives it's not the point there's a New York Times article about I know it's like this is insanity get real problems now I'm running get real problems now get real problems now yes and Chalamet is your VP I'm Caleb Hare and I approve this message it's insane to me it's absolutely insane but guess what what I have a game for you Speaking of frivolity.

59:32Yeah. We're going to play a game. It's called true false. Guess what, Zoe? I'm going to read you 15 statements. You're going to tell me as quickly as you can. If what I just said was true or false. Okay. If you get 10 or more correct, we're going to give you 50 US dollars. Unbelievable. Yes. You ready? Okay. Okay. As quick as you can. There have been two theatrically released Puss in Boots movies. True. True. The toilet plunger was invented in 1774. True. False. 1874. The CN Tower is the tallest structure in Canada. True. True. Owls have teeth.

1:00:07True. False. Hearing that F was so painful. Edward R. Murrow High School's colors are green and silver. Fuck. I should know that. They don't have colors. False. False. Green and white. Flagstaff is the capital of Arizona. Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh God, people think I'm smart.

1:00:36False. False, it's Phoenix. It's Phoenix. Susan Sarandon is an avid supporter of ping pong. True. True. The Zune is older than the Blackberry. The what? The Zune. The Zune? The Zune is older than the Blackberry. I don't know what the Zune is. False. False. The Grammy Awards got their name from the gramophone. True. True. There are 53 players on an active NFL roster. Oh, brother.

1:01:1053? Answer, Zoe. I can't. You have to.

1:01:21I'm frozen in fear. False. That's true. Identical twins don't have the same fingerprint. Oh my god, I'm interested in this True It's true Lollipops were named after a racehorse I love lollipops

1:01:43Answer the question, are you saying true? True The Amazon River is the largest river on earth True False, it's the Nile Sloths can hold their breath longer than dolphins True. It's true. Okay. NYU was founded by Stanwood Kolsch.

1:02:04False. False. Albert Gallatin. Chance, how'd she do? 11. Wow! Zoe! You're$50 richer. How do you feel? I feel on top of the world. I love you so much. Do you want to tell people where they can find you, how they can support you, et cetera? At Zoe Lister Jones on the gram. and I think that's it. I love that. Yeah. I love that and I love you. Thanks for doing it. I love you too. It's a great episode. Fall has never looked or tasted this good. Sweet Greens Fall Harvest Menu is back with seasonal favorites dressed to impress and made to be devoured. Warm roasted sweet potatoes, crisp apples, maple glazed Brussels and crave worthy flavors in the autumn harvest bowl, maple glazed salmon plate and roasted bacon Brussels side.

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