SED News: AMD’s Big OpenAI Deal, Intel’s Struggles, and Apple’s AI Long Game

0:11Hello and welcome to SED News. I'm Gregor Vand. And I'm Sean Faulkner. And for anyone that's joining us for the first time on SED News, this is just a slightly different format to the SE Daily podcast, where we take a spin through tech news, we go through the headlines, we have a main topic kind of in the middle, and then we look at some hacker news highlights and some predictions ahead. But as always, nice just to catch up, Sean. We're doing this a little bit earlier than our usual end of month recording. So it's coming a bit earlier to listeners this month. But as usual, there's easily enough for us to cover.

0:46But what have you been up to since we last caught up? Oh, just heavy travel schedule this fall. Actually, our big annual conference for Confluent is next week in New Orleans. So I'm gearing up for that. So I've been very busy getting ready for all the big product announcements and stuff that we're going to be doing there. should be a fun week but a very tiring week as well yeah nice and how about you i've started a new role but um i'm not going to say which company yeah but yeah it's uh fun so far i was also at a to the big cyber security conference here called govware doesn't sound very tech with gov in the name but it is but yeah just the usual names and faces showing off their products i wouldn't say i've seen a lot of like change to last year i feel like last year was the first maybe cyber security where ai was like really being pushed this year i would say it's kind of just more of the same but i guess that's sort of what we're seeing maybe across the board with a few of these sort of bigger enterprise areas we should really talk about our predictions from last month because yeah let's go through what we did predict or try to predict and then we also missed one so yeah your prediction i think sean was to do salesforce developing a model of their own any word on that no i knew that was a little bit of an out there reach prediction at the time with dream force coming up.

2:00They made lots of big announcements at Dreamforce, but nothing in terms of launching their own model, at least at this point. Yeah. And my one was, if you did catch the last episode, there was a Hacker News about hosting a web server on a disposable vape. And I thought maybe we'd see something that like one up to that on Hacker News. Can't say I did. So that just shows maybe that project was a bit of an outlier for the last few months. But we sort of implicitly predicted something which was around AMD. We're going to get into it in our main topic, but why is AMD important? Well, we were talking about NVIDIA, Intel, everything that's kind of going on in the chip world last time.

2:41And Intel is getting some attention. They got some funding essentially from the government. They got investment from some other big players in the market. And then we raised the question of like, what's going on with AMD? And we kind of bantered about like, well, we haven't really heard a lot about AMD. I wonder what's going on with them. We should follow up with that. And then a couple of days later, suddenly there's all this news about AMD investment in AMD, big deal that they signed with, you know, open AI is taking up to 10 % stake in the company. All this is going on. And we really missed our opportunity to have an accurate prediction for the first time where we probably could have said something about AMD making their move in the world of AI.

3:20Yeah, for sure. So as I say, we're going to get into that. The main topic today is really looking at the when we say chip makers we don't just mean fabs but like anyone who is able to ultimately create a chip so like that includes apple for example we're going to get into that we've got a bit more detail on what's been going on there i think sort of last month we were postulating on a whole bunch of things we've got a bit more info now on some of these deals and what's being on behind the scenes so that's going to be interesting to get into but we're going to hit the main headlines. These are things that, as it sounds, they hit mainstream news.

3:54So whether that could be like Wall Street Journal or like Reuters or Forbes, etc. So yeah, I think a couple of things have come up. Security AI has just been bought for 1.7 billion. What's that about, Sean? Yeah, so I saw this actually announced today. Actually, since you're in the security world, are you familiar with security? Yeah, you know what? I'm not. So that's an interesting, it could be where I am in the world. Maybe we just haven't seen them over here. But yeah, so what are they about, Sean? Yeah, so I've never used their software. I've seen them around, especially in my prior role when I worked for Skyflow, since we were in the privacy and security space.

4:30We would see them at a lot of the same conferences that we were at. They are focused on doing security, sort of privacy compliance, discovery of sensitive data across wherever you're storing data and then being able to actually protect it. And they just sold for $1.7 billion, a sizable amount of money, to a company, I think it's called VM Software, which they have a whole bunch of different parts of software, like data protection, backups, recovery solutions. I think they're owned by private equity. But big Chuck going into this kind of shows, I think, there's still a tremendous amount of momentum in the world of security, but also, I think, specifically with what's happening in AI right now.

5:09Yeah, it is interesting. This is what I find, to be honest, sitting over here in Singapore, There are so many companies that just never cross my radar unless someone calls them out because their presence tends to be very US centric. Yeah. And basically unless you set up like a sales office over here, Singapore tends to be the sales hub for at least Southeast Asia. It's interesting that just so many actually quite sizable companies just fly under the radar, pun not intended. So moving on to another well-known company on both sides of the Pacific, Langchain has raised$125 million Series B at a$1.25 billion valuation.

5:48Yeah, what do you think that's sort of signaling? I think it's a good thing for people out there building AI companies or interest in the space, because it is one of the bigger fundraisers and valuations I've seen for a company that's not like one of the model companies or running inference in the cloud, sort of the core infra for building these AI systems or like the base foundation models. They're certainly an abstraction and layer on top of that. They also have good open source roots. So I think this is good sign for open sources, you know, live and well, of course, they have ways that they're monetizing with hosting AI software and agents directly within their own cloud, as well as their observability and eval testing tools and stuff like that.

6:32I do come across LangChain a lot. I think they were one of the early companies that really did made a name for themselves in the space when the early sort of large language models were really coming out. And they've been able to adapt as well with the market change because really LangChain originally was a nice abstraction over top of all these different models where the model APIs were not necessarily that easy to use at the beginning. And then the model APIs have gotten significantly better more and more have been sort of owned by the model companies and they've been able to adapt into things like lang graph and adding additional functionality and become sort of more sticky player all while the model companies like open ai anthropic well less so anthropic but open ai has also made inroads into offering their own sort of competitive products yeah and we've got a episode coming up probably comes out after this episode with pydantic ai so for those that are familiar with Pydantic they now have another product library Pydantic AI that's very much kind of in the same space as this but they also did raise money for that and that is a sort of commercial interest as much as an open source interest so look out for that because certainly Langchain comes up in that episode a bit just sort of compare and contrast like the two approaches that are being taken to kind of the same problem around basically agents so yeah look out for that moving on we've got an announcement that a company called periodic labs has just kind of come out of nowhere but who are they they are one of open ai's most respected researchers liam fedus and his former google brain colleague ekin dogus cubic i probably completely botched those names but yeah this kind of interesting 300 million seed round led by a16z modest seed round yeah i mean yeah i believe as these things happen these days, they're being offered checks before they'd even formed a company.

8:28So investors were getting nervous because they had nothing actually to invest in. So that's obviously a good place to be if you're about to found a company and you've already got that lined up. But yeah, what is Periodic Lab, or at least what are they saying they're going to be doing? So my understanding was they're kind of trying to bring together like AI with the physical world. I think one of their taglines is like, AI gets a wet lab. they're trying to essentially build out a digital scientist in some respects like databricks has like their ai sort of data scientist is trying to offload certain or be a co-pilot or offload certain responsibilities that data scientists might typically have to do on in this world snowflake you have an ai analyst that offloads some of the analyst work this is an ai scientist that can do leverage ai essentially to do some traditional science work in the real world yeah Yeah, very interesting.

9:19So I mean, I think also interesting that OpenAI, so one of the founders, one of the most respected researchers from OpenAI, but even though I believe when he was leaving, he sort of said, I've got the blessing of OpenAI and it sort of hinted that they would be investing, that didn't materialize in the end. Probably for the best on both sides, perhaps we're going to be getting into just a bit of OpenAI's financial web later on in relation to the chip makers. So certainly finance for OpenAI is a bit of an open question right now. Moving on, say we're recording this on the 22nd, 21st of October, we've just had a major AWS outage, which yeah, I'm sure for most of us, well, I think again, I was in Asia.

10:02So Monday, it was my Monday. So it sort of killed the second half of my Monday. But yeah, what kind of actually happened to you, Sean? Well, I mean, it basically took down half the internet, but I actually got some pings from my old company, some people that used to be on my team asking for help with the website being down and Monday being a lot of the teams based in India. It was Diwali. So a lot of people were off. So you had this combination of factors. And I let them know, well, it's OK. You're in good company because half the Internet's down. It's not just you. But what I understand there was, so basically US East 1 started experiencing some elevated error rates sometime in the middle of the night.

10:44They started to investigate. It turned out some of these were related to DynamoDB service, which ends up having a lot of explosive damage across all of AWS because a lot of things run on DynamoDB. Not just client services, but core services with AWS. So you get this cascading effect. If Dynamo is down, it's not just going to be isolated. Dynamo is going to essentially impact all these other services. So you ended up with people experiencing really slow response times from websites, things just timing out, and essentially a ton of services were unavailable for the day. And yeah, there's been murmurings that this is effectively related to a brain drain, AWS.

11:27I saw some, I mean, again, I'm not going to say this is a accurate figure, but someone posted it, that they'd laid off 40 % of their infra engineers, and now it's AI trying to do self-healing, etc, etc. Do you think that's accurate? Like, is that something you're aware of? Or like, was there anyone else talking about this? Yeah, I mean, I read Corey Quinn's article that he wrote about this for The Register. And basically that was kind of sort of the position that he said that like, look, they've had a ton of layoffs. And as a result, of course, good people have also left on their own accord because they're like, oh, this isn't the AWS I remember.

12:01There's been a lot of public messages from some of those people who left sort of criticizing some of the decisions that have been made at AWS. I don't know about the idea of them being replaced by AI and whether that was a factor, But I certainly think that if a lot of your experienced engineers are no longer there and then you have some sort of outage like this, not only is it probably going to take longer to fix, but could have been not happened essentially from the get go because they were experienced enough to recognize either the signs or knew the risks that were being taken to lead to this situation.

12:35Yeah, Corey Quinn, sort of Mr. AWS. So definitely look him up if you're looking for some good analysis of all things AWS. Yeah, I saw a, again, I think the timing was real. I don't think this was just a marketing stunt, but David Hanemar Hansen posted that, so he's Basecamp and obviously big Ruby on Rails, founder of Ruby on Rails and many other things. They've been doing quite a push to move away from AWS. They created their own framework called MRSK. So it kind of sounds like Maersk, like the shipping line, so containers. So they've been moving to their entirely self-sufficient metal server framework and that day was when they had called like a town hall where dhh was standing up on a little mini stage and projecting to the team that they were closing their aws account that day that was like the final final click off and this was literally just a few hours after the outage had started so of course he got exactly what he wanted lots of people saying how smart he was on this one i think it's still gonna be interesting just to see because what are the alternatives to big cloud well just another big cloud basically you know if it's not aws you're going to gcp or maybe azure but if you're not there then you kind of have to take yeah like a base camp approach of thinking about if you have those requirements dhh claimed they were paying like 3.5 million a year to aws and they're not a huge company base camp you know they're very profitable but you know they're not huge they're like somewhere between 50 to 100 employees so So yeah, 3.5 million is a big chunk of change.

14:09And they just said, we're paying that every year. We can invest that amount of money into something that costs way less and is way easier for us to run, basically. So interesting to watch that one. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, and maybe that's true for Basecamp. Maybe they have the existing talent. They can run those servers and that's a good use of that talent and stuff like that. But I think for a lot of companies, is that burden of work really what you want to take on? I definitely think this is an incentive to maybe think about how you protect against such issues in the future of business, like either not solely dependent on a singular region like US East 1 or multi-cloud.

14:47There's a lot of different ways that you could potentially approach this problem that doesn't require you stacking and racking your own servers. That might be a little bit extreme as a result of this. The other thing that I thought was interesting that this, and I haven't closely tracked this, but I remember in the early days of AWS, this is over like 10 years ago, these kind of outages used to happen all the time. It was very common that like, oh, okay, well, like US West is down today. And then you haven't really seen that, or at least from my perspective, I haven't seen it on a regular basis for quite a long time.

15:18Obviously, this is a huge outage. It was like 15 hours. And even if you said that there was no major outages for whatever number of years it's been, And AWS and the cloud providers, companies have become more and more dependent on them. They have a bigger, bigger footprint. So there is a tremendous amount of collateral damage when something like this happens because they end up taking down so many businesses that are ultimately going to be losing probably millions of dollars by not being operational for some period of time. Yeah, and I think just to sort of wrap this up, I mean, the fact it was sort of roughly one region, that's actually quite confusing because you can be sitting across the other side of the world and sort of bits of a product stop working, but not all the bits because it depends like where they're, are they sort of being, are they doing smart region on some things?

16:03Have they just said other things have to go through US East 1? So it was a kind of confusing down period because yeah, sort of bits of products were working and nobody really knew like who, and also, you know, we're in a company Slack, like some people are affected, some people are not. So it just, it causes a lot of confusion as opposed to just saying, okay, well, this is just a outed, like, and it's not like a power cut in a city or something where you just say, well, until it's back on, it's back on. Feeling the AI anxiety from questions to job security to cybersecurity and everything in between, it's easy to feel overwhelmed with the rate of AI innovation.

16:41Enter ARIA, the enterprise AI orchestration and security platform built to boost your confidence. With ARIA, you don't have to compromise between speed and innovation or security and governance. Quickly deploy AI without cutting corners on compliance. Give your teams the confidence to adopt AI with ARIA. Ready to eliminate your AI anxiety? Visit ARIA.com to get started for free today. That's A-I-R-I-A dot com. So moving on, last month, we did touch on the private equity buyout of Electronic Arts. And And yeah, there was just a bit more color on that one. This was private equity guy Durban. So he's well known for putting together like these massive deals in private equity.

17:27And it turns out that he was the mastermind behind this. We kind of didn't have that color on it before. Also, given it was the Saudi Arabian Public Investment Fund, also since learned that the leader behind that, he's very into gaming just generally. So we know that that fund is a bit of a pet project as much as it's called the public investment fund it very much does follow how the leader of satir just likes to whatever he's interested in so i think this was a perfect deal where they could get someone who has a lot of money at hand and is actually interested in gaming we have seen battlefield 6 come out it has got pretty good reviews so i think that's kind of smoothed that one over we were obviously questioning whether the hype was going to match reality and was that affecting anything so yeah just a kind of interesting extra color there finally apple they've actually allowed so i'm sure people are vaguely aware that apple had this glass ui which i think dropped maybe a couple months ago and i'm not an iphone user i've got my big probe i'm not an iphone user so this didn't really affect me i didn't really have to think about it too much but i'm aware that a lot of people were not very happy about it and then other people were saying no, no, this is the future.

18:39They're so smart. They're just getting us ready for AR experiences where everything will be kind of translucent in front of your face and so on and so forth. They have announced that they're allowing a rollback though of this. Have we seen anything like this from Apple before? Or is this like actually the first time we're seeing them admit that maybe a design decision wasn't well received? I mean, I think it's pretty rare from what I can recall. I'm not an iPhone user either, but I have been in the past. But I think it's pretty rare that Apple sort of admits that their design decisions aren't one size fits all.

19:13And we kind of know best for the consumer. So it seems like they're kind of learning. And maybe the backlash was just so extensive in this case that they had to admit, or maybe it signals some larger cultural change, but they're kind of trying to balance the aesthetics with accessibility and they're giving users more control instead of forcing them to have a uniform design, at least in this case. Whether that will transcend other products or not, we'll have to see. But I haven't seen them do stuff like that previously. Generally, it's like, hey, remember that port on your laptop that we said was the best thing ever?

19:49Well, we changed it for this new version of the laptop because it's even better and you got to buy all new adapters and new wires and we know best. So just go do it yeah i must say i was very happy when they brought back magsafe to macbook pros at least it was just a very nice piece of technology but the problem that they as you call out they just kept flip-flopping between what the form factor of that was as well as oh we're going to remove it usbc and then put it back again so if they just evolved rather than completely yo-yoed around yeah with the liquid glass they say that you can now have clear or tinted so i'm afraid i don't really know what that means because again i don't use an iphone but if you're an iphone user that's possible now apparently one of the only other times they've walked something back in this realm is safari's address bar moved to the bottom of the iphone screen at some stage in 2021 people got very angry about that and they had an option to put it back to the top again even though the bar at the bottom kind of makes sense your thumbs are there but sure yeah i think a clear background is tough depending on what the background is right like you have a busy picture or something like that and then you have a i don't know a clear notification on top of it like how are you going to be able to read the text i think that's where it starts to become problematic yeah i mean i think to play devil's advocate i do get frustrated on as i think most people do on their phone like icons kind of have all smashed together in the sort of a lot of them just look the same now you know if i'm reaching for say like authy authy and pocket casts look very similar red white circular so it's kind of you have to like be quite diligent about organizing your space or just kind of muscle memory kind of knowing where that app is and you know it's not on the top or the bottom or something but i don't think the glass translucent approach fixes that either it didn't look like it would fix that if i sort of saw screenshots of it it just looked perhaps even more confusing but i don't So yeah, and just to kind of wrap that one up, they did achieve record iPhone sales this past quarter.

21:47So it doesn't seem to have actually affected product sales. It's just that they're sort of at least accepting that a lot of users have pushed back on wanting to take on this new UI. So, okay, moving on to our main topic. So this is behind the scenes at the chip makers, what's really going on with a whole bunch of companies. So we're going to be looking at Intel. We're going to be looking at AMD. We will go back to looking at Apple in this lens, NVIDIA, of course, and then just also kind of looking at where does OpenAI, they're not a chip maker, obviously, but they have a lot of fingers in pies of chip makers now.

22:25And we just want to kind of understand how are they affecting the landscape. So we're just kind of digging in on details of like where everyone's at intel we did touch on them i think we touched them maybe even for two past episodes just sort of they've been doing deals and having to get back up to financial strength but i admit i did actually say oh they're not too big to fail they're just sort of too important not to do well but i think you're much more on the money sean they were actually getting to failure point apparently behind the scenes yeah it's crazy to think about i mean they just were so dominant in the 90s back then it was kind of a two-horse race but they were just almost everything was intel and then of course the early apple computers and laptops were intel now they gone and just started developing their own chip technology and stuff it just seems like more and more both moved away from intel and then of course with gpus and the ai era like they're playing some catch up there so they've been struggling i think even more than certainly i was aware of yeah so they had i mean there was a comment from an ex ceo of intel craig garrett he believes that even today, even after deals that they've done, the US government taking 10 % and NVIDIA investing 5 billion, which obviously isn't actually that much money when you take into account both of these companies, he still thinks that they're going to need about 40 billion injected.

23:49I mean, obviously, he's not part of the company anymore, but he probably has a pretty good idea and has a few back channel information sources as well. So he thinks about 40 billion still needs to be injected into Intel to kind of get it back up to where it should be. Do you have any insights into like where that$40 billion goes to? Is that for, I'm assuming like$40 billion, that's a lot of money. Like there's got to be some physical manufacturing type of stuff that they have to be investing into. I mean, there's R &D and stuff like that. But I mean,$40 billion is a lot of money just of like, hey, we're this far in the hole and we need to inject a lot of money just to play catch up.

24:25Yeah, I mean, I think it's basically because they are been bleeding customers. And so, you know, their cash flows are just down. And yeah, I mean, exactly where would that money go? Well, yeah, they really need to get back up to actually delivering chips that people want to buy. I mean, it sounds really obvious, but they've kind of, that seems to have been the biggest problem that they've basically, the quality of what they produce has just gone down and down. That was also the most obvious, I think, that affected anyone in sort of software is the Apple moving away from their chips. I mean, I had at least two MacBook Pros on Intel Silicon and they were terrible.

25:02Like they just, they were so unreliable and I used to have to get, you know, the whole logic boards replaced. It was just crazy. I mean, that's partly what really hurt BlackBerry back in the day when they were scrambling to try to catch up to the iPhone when the iPhone came out. And then they were just delivering like a really subpar product. So even people who are loyalists to BlackBerry are like, this is just not even functional. Like, I can't use this thing. Yeah. I mean, to maybe you or I, like we would have maybe figured out, oh, it's Intel. It's the problem here. And our kind of perception of Apple doesn't go down massively.

25:36where like so long as they can get a better product out it's apple like we like apple but i think a lot of people at that time started just associating apple laptops as being a bit subpar and like you know the fan was always on you know it's supposed to be like the quietest fastest laptop and it was anything but i mean that's part of the motivation for google to develop the pixel even though they don't really mass produce them to that extent part of it was like they wanted to own essentially the entire phone so they could show that you can make a like a really high-end android phone it's not like just because it's android is like inherently wrong the reason you might you may end up with an android phone that doesn't function very well is because maybe some part of the hardware or something like that that was manufactured was not done at a quality level that should have been done at yeah exactly so just to kind of round out what's been going on yeah pat gelsinger who was ceo he was sort of brought back he was part of the company and then he was brought back in and everyone thought this was going to be like the turnaround of intel and it was kind of the opposite he focused on the chips act which was basically lobbying the u.s government around like more chips needed to be made in the u.s as opposed to made overseas not to say that wasn't important but it sounds like he maybe spent a bit too much time and focus on that as opposed to the company itself because he i think it sounds like he was a bit complacent around where intel was and this is during the time that apple moved away and he sort of spun up a bunch of expensive r &d projects and they've all got can now under litbutan the new ceo and now they're just intel they're having to like sell off assets basically so these like one of the first things litbutan was sell off 51 of the altera programmable chip business that got 3.5 billion.

27:22Again, that doesn't sound like a lot, but I guess, you know, you just look at all the dribs and drabs of billions that they're accumulating and, you know, sure adds up to, you know, 10, 15, maybe 20. It just sort of feels strange that they're having to actually do this kind of stuff, like sell off assets and their Intel, but Hey, here we are. So very interesting. Yeah, absolutely. AMD though. This is, well, I see we missed this last month, but the point was last month, I think quite deliberately, there hadn't been a lot of chatter about AMD probably because they knew what they're about to announce.

27:54And yeah, they've announced that they're doing a big deal with OpenAI. So what are the kind of the terms of that deal? Yeah. So it looks like OpenAI is taking up to 10 % stake in the company. And as a result of that, their AMD stock grew 25%. It's actually kind of crazy how much some association with OpenAI or one of the leaders in the AI space, like dramatically impacts your public stock price, because those companies are perceived to be, you know, essentially, probably the future leaders of addressable market of companies out there in the space, like we have the FAANG companies, and like the next generation could be the open AIs and the anthropics of the world, essentially.

28:36So having any name association with these companies suddenly has a dramatic impact on your stock price. And then on top of that, they also announced a deal with Oracle Cloud. They just signed a deal for 50 ,000 AMD AI chips. So there's a lot of recent news that came out with AMD. We had talked last time, as we mentioned, what's going on with AMD, they seem really quiet. And then suddenly they just came out with a whole bunch of stuff at once. Yeah, there was an interesting live interview with Lisa Su, the CEO of AMD, and I think it was Greg Brockman at OpenAI, I think he's head of product. And it was an interesting dynamic because it's such a huge deal.

29:17And they're sort of having to like talk about what this was even about. And Bloomberg's quite good at that sort of being like, come on, give us real details here. You're sort of, this is all a bit hand wavy. They basically said that they're doing a, this is six gigawatts of AI compute and inference over the term of the contract, which is about, well, I think it's at least three years, for example. But they think that, you know, one gigawatt is only going to come online in the second half of next year. So obviously to get to six is, yeah, that's a bit of an interesting stretch there. It was interesting.

29:48Lisa Su actually used the phrase, we're tied to each other now on Bloomberg. And they even commented on that. They're like, that's quite a strong statement. Yeah. So this isn't just sort of, oh, we're investing a little bit here and there. They're kind of AMD. I mean, that's the CEO saying we are tied to each other now. Like, you know, OpenAI is a part of our future. And she said, you know, partnerships like this take years to get comfortable. So yeah, sounds like they really, as you say, John, like the stock price went up quite a bit. Clearly, the CEO sees like OpenAI as a huge part of their future.

30:19Yeah, I mean, it's valuable from AMD's perspective where this isn't just OpenAI purchasing AMD chips. It's actually a true partnership where they're taking stake in the company too. So that way, in some sense, the switching cost is higher because OpenAI actually has stake in the AMD game at this point where they own shares, they own common stock. So if AMD does well, OpenAI does well. But this also goes back to, I think, one of the things we talked about last time of just like sort of the rinsing of money that's happening in the space right now. It's like OpenAI gives NVIDIA$20 and then NVIDIA gives$20 back to OpenAI.

30:57And then they give that money over to AMD and AMD gives that money back. There's a lot of this kind of repeated transactions that are happening. Yeah, exactly. I mean, there are these sort of circular financing concerns across the whole industry. Yeah, you know, like, you know, NVIDIA invests in OpenAI, but then they use it to buy chips. And that's just going around in a circle in quite a few of these companies. So we'll touch on a little bit more of that just at the end of this segment, just in terms of any other circular things to maybe watch out for. just as a wrap up amd it was interesting they did clarify that you know this inference this compute that's being rolled out you know gigawatt and then in theory up to six this is not coming out of just amd data centers this is amd chips being placed in wherever they can get them basically you know they said oh oracle are probably gonna take a bunch and you know obni AI gets compute from Oracle already, or Oracle data centers rather.

31:57So yeah, this is, again, that sort of adds to the web, if you like. This isn't just sort of AMD able to say, well, we can provide with all our own infra and assets, this compute. So still a lot of interdependence, I think, is what's going on here. There has been some collaboration between AMD and Intel. I mean, seems like more on the technology side. I mean, just taking one example, they just announced it's called check tag i'm not obviously a processing engineer but check tag it says is a set of new and enhanced x86 instructions to detect memory safety violations such as buffer overflows and misuses of freed memory i mean i think yeah we're all kind of vaguely familiar with what that means but interesting that they are actually collaborate like these two are collaborating and i maybe pick up that that's sort of like nvidia is not invited to the party here and they need to, but yeah, I think interesting how, who could be perceived as competitors are actually kind of collaborating on the behind the scenes tech as well.