SYSK TRENDING - The Surprising Upside of Imposter Syndrome

0:00Jill Duffy: Do you want to hear about visionaries creating a better world? People working in conservation, exploration, science and tech, alongside storytellers imagining and creating a better future. I'm Alex Honnold, professional rock climber and founder of the Honnold Foundation, bringing you season six of Planet Visionaries. This season, I speak to guests like National Geographic photographer Tom Pesek and Anna Rathman, Executive Director of the Jane Goodall Institute USA, in partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative. Watch Planet Visionaries on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

0:32Jill Duffy: Have you ever had that feeling that you're not nearly as smart or capable as people seem to think you are? And sooner or later, they're going to figure that out. That's often called imposter syndrome. And while it sounds like something you definitely want to get rid of, maybe you shouldn't. Because those feelings of self-doubt may actually be telling you something useful and could even help you perform better, connect with people, and grow. That's why today's SYSK trending topic is The Surprising Upside of Imposter Syndrome. So why do so many successful people feel like imposters? And what's the good news about feeling like a fraud?

1:15Jill Duffy: Jill Stoddard is a psychologist and author who has studied this extensively. And in our conversation, she explains why imposter syndrome may not be the problem we think it is. And we'll get to that right after this. I imagine most of us shop for clothes online, at least some of the time. And there's always that little mystery. Is what shows up at your door actually going to look like what you think you ordered? We've all had that experience. I know my wife has ordered dresses that look beautiful in the pictures. But when they arrived, not so beautiful. Cheap looking, disappointing. And that's one of the reasons we've become such big fans of Quince.

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3:15Jill Duffy: I'm sure you and just about everyone else has felt that feeling of self-doubt, particularly when you try something new or you're in a new situation or environment. Typically, though, those feelings of self-doubt tend to fade away after you start to get more comfortable and competent in what you're doing. But then there's something called the imposter syndrome, where you feel like an imposter, that if people really knew how incompetent you were, they'd never let you do what you're doing. You don't feel qualified. You feel out of your league, even though you are qualified and you're not out of your league.

3:54Jill Duffy: That's the imposter syndrome. And it is an experience a lot of people have. And usually when you hear discussions about the imposter syndrome, the discussion is like, how do you not feel that way? But what if feeling that way is actually a good thing? What if feeling like an imposter will actually propel you forward? Here to talk about this is Dr. Jill Stoddard. She is a mental health care provider and author of a couple of books. Her latest one is called Imposter No More, Overcome Self-Doubt and Imposterism to Cultivate a Successful Career. Hi, Jill. Welcome to Something You Should Know.

4:33Michael Arterberry: Hi, Mike. Thank you so much for having me.

4:35Jill Duffy: So as somebody who studies this, how do you define the imposter syndrome?

4:41Michael Arterberry: It's a general feeling of inadequacy or phoniness that exists and persists despite evidence to the contrary. So in other words, people who have these thoughts and feelings are typically bright and successful, but they don't see themselves that way despite having many accomplishments. So they question their legitimacy. They question whether they truly belong if they're part of an elite group. They believe that other people overestimate their competence. And then all of that causes this fear of being found out or exposed as a fraud.

5:19Jill Duffy: And if you're never found out, if you just keep that doubt inside, what harm can it do?

5:26Michael Arterberry: I think the answer to that is twofold. I see this play out in two actually completely opposite ways. So one is the way I think we would more obviously think of, which is if I doubt my competence, then I might hold myself back. I might not go for the promotion. I might not write the book or apply for the TED Talk. These big things that seem way out of my realm. And so the cost is missed opportunities. I think the other side of it, though, is that we jump on this ladder or this hamster wheel, whatever metaphor you like, of achievement of if I just do this one more thing, this one more thing, this one more thing, then I'll finally feel legitimate.

6:08Michael Arterberry: Like we try to outrun it because it's painful and uncomfortable. And then, of course, the cost of that is burnout and potentially taking you away from other things that matter to you. You know, if you become a workaholic and you're missing out on time with family or recreation or your health is suffering.

6:25Jill Duffy: Is it typically in professional settings or do people feel this in all kinds of situations?

6:32Michael Arterberry: I think it's typically talked about in professional settings and that's where people are the most aware of it. But it can absolutely play out really in any context, especially a context that matters to you. So, for example, if you're a stay-at-home dad where most people that are staying home with their children are women and mothers, you may feel like an imposter. I know I feel it as a mom when I look at sort of what I call like the Pinterest moms, like the moms that make the amazing birthday cakes and throw the amazing parties when I'm buying the plastic box of cookies from the grocery store, you know.

7:10Michael Arterberry: So I think it can really play out in any number of contexts, but most typically we see it show up in professional settings.

7:18Jill Duffy: What is it that you think goes through people's minds that starts that thought process of, I feel like an imposter?

7:26Michael Arterberry: I think you know this is showing up whenever you ask yourself kind of the who do I think I am question. That sense of, I don't belong here. What are they thinking putting me in charge? Any minute they're going to find out, I don't really know what I'm doing, and I'm going to blow this whole thing up, and then it's over.

7:44Jill Duffy: As opposed to thinking, wow, look at me. These people have enough confidence and faith in me to pull this off. Why am I not feeling that? Why am I feeling like a fraud?

7:58Michael Arterberry: Well, this is unfortunately just how brains work, and we can tie this back to evolution. You know, early humans who hunted and gathered and traveled together had a survival advantage. And if you got kicked out of your tribe, it was literally a life and death situation. And so checking your status, do I measure up? Do I add value? I hope they don't figure out that I'm not as good as I need to be or as good as they think that I am, because if they kick me out, I'm dead. And of course, in modern times, we're not worrying about the prehistoric killer kangaroo that might murder us on the savannah. But we do know research has shown very strongly that the most robust predictor of our overall physical and mental health and well-being is the presence of quality relationships.

8:46Michael Arterberry: So even today, if our bonds are threatened, and if you think about this imposter experience, really a lot of it is boiling down to what other people will learn about me. So if our bonds or connections are threatened, you know, this is a deeply rooted concern that does have real implications for our health and well-being even today.

9:08Jill Duffy: As I think about all the times I have felt that feeling to various degrees, it's always gone away. And it's almost as if maybe it serves a purpose because when you feel like a fraud, you're extra conscientious not to blow it. And maybe you need to be to get to that point where you don't feel like a fraud anymore.

9:31Michael Arterberry: So I think it can motivate people in certain ways. You know, Adam Grant, the very well-known organizational psychologist, talks about these imposter feelings can motivate us to work harder, like you're saying, because we feel like we have something to prove. What I think is the most important is whatever it is we're choosing to do when these thoughts and feelings show up, that those choices are not based on avoiding feeling like a fraud, but they're kind of an away move from something we don't want to feel, but more that we're making conscious decisions to move toward the things that matter to us.

10:10Michael Arterberry: So, you know, if getting your message out into the world, like podcasting, for example, if this is something that's really important to you, if this is a contribution that you feel like is valuable, et cetera, then you're going to keep doing it even if you tend to confront self-doubt in that arena. But you won't just keep doing it because you think if I just interview another person who's a little more famous than the last, then I'll finally feel like I'm not a fraud. You know, that's really more of an avoidance strategy that doesn't tend to promote well-being.

10:41Jill Duffy: It does seem, though, that when people feel this feeling of being an imposter, that it does fade, that it does go away, or you give up. But that most of the time, you feel like an imposter because there is that. Maybe you're new and you don't really understand everything as well as everybody else. You're comparing yourself to other people who really get this. that it takes some time to get up to speed and you might feel like an imposter until you do.

11:11Michael Arterberry: The answer to that is pretty nuanced, I think. So yes, I agree with you. But the only way that it's going to fade is if you continue to keep doing exactly the same thing that you're doing. And so there is research that shows that these imposter thoughts and feelings are actually correlated with success. So the more successful you get positively correlated. So the more successful you get, the more you tend to feel like an imposter. And we think the reason for that is the higher you climb, the more you're expected to know. And so if you take what you were just saying, yes, of course, I'm going to feel it when I'm at the start of a learning curve.

11:46Michael Arterberry: But once I get to a certain level of mastery, maybe this will fade. But most people, successful achieving people, which are the people who experience this the most, don't stay there. They do the next challenging thing and the next challenging thing. And so as long as you're continuing to take on challenges in your career, then those thoughts and feelings are not likely to fade.

12:11Jill Duffy: And that's okay?

12:13Michael Arterberry: I think it's absolutely okay. You know, if you look at it as a sign, both that you're challenging yourself, you're learning, but more importantly, you know, we believe that pain is a sign that we should avoid, right? You put your hand on a hot stove, you do want to take your hand away to avoid a dangerous burn. But we don't want to apply that mentality to all of our emotional pain, because our emotions are often a bright red neon arrow pointing out what we care about. Because if you didn't care, you wouldn't worry, right? Like when you think about what keeps you up at two in the morning when the wheels are spinning, we're not sitting there worrying about the fact that Ted Lasso is not coming back for season four, even if it was our most favorite show ever.

12:56Michael Arterberry: we're worrying about our family and our performance at work and our relationships. It's we hurt where we care is what Stephen Hayes, who's the founder of the type of therapy I do, is called acceptance and commitment therapy. And he says we hurt where we care. And I think that is so profound because if we take anxiety, self-doubt, uncertainty, imposter thoughts and feelings and go, oh, this must mean I don't belong here. Therefore, I should quit or move away. then we're likely moving away from something that deeply matters to us. And instead, those thoughts and feelings are very likely a sign that we're exactly where we're meant to be.

13:33Jill Duffy: We're talking about self-doubt and the imposter syndrome. My guest is Dr. Jill Stoddard. She is a mental health care provider and author of the book Imposter No More, Overcome Self-Doubt and Imposterism to Cultivate a Successful Career. This episode is sponsored by Vinted. You know, I remember interviewing an organizing expert who offered this really clever trick for figuring out which clothes you should get rid of. You go to your closet and you look at the clothes hanging there. And chances are the ones toward the middle are the clothes you wear most often. But the clothes pushed way over to the left or the right.

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16:26Jill Duffy: And here's a great reason to try Native Path Bone Health Collagen right now. You can save up to 48%, Get free shipping, and it's backed by a 365-day money-back guarantee. Now, that's a pretty compelling offer if you've been thinking about doing something to support your bone health. Go to GetBetterBones.com slash S-Y-S-K. That's G-E-T BetterBones.com slash S-Y-S-K. So, Jill, when I started this podcast, I felt this feeling. But rightfully so. I had no idea what I was doing. And so it wasn't, I was feeling fraudulently like an imposter. I really was. I really didn't know what I was doing. Now I think I do, based on the success of this podcast.

17:23Jill Duffy: But sometimes you really don't know what you're doing, and you are a fraud, and you're maybe faking it till you make it.

17:30Michael Arterberry: Yeah, that certainly can happen. And again, especially if we're at the beginning of a learning curve. But I think we start to gain knowledge and skills and expertise, but don't always give ourselves credit for that. We still believe we're friends. You know, I had a friend and colleague of mine who I was interviewing who said, yeah, but what if you don't just feel like a fraud? What if you really are? And I burst out laughing because this woman is a CEO of a large health care company. and she has worked her way up over the last two decades, three decades, really, and absolutely belongs there. But she still, you know, she works with a lot of PhD level people and she, I don't think she even got her master's.

18:13I think she just has a bachelor's degree.

18:16Michael Arterberry: But if you look at her CV, she very clearly has earned her way and is very competent. But even she was saying, but what if I really am still a fraud? What if I really am faking it and I haven't yet made it? So our brains just are not very good at discerning those things in an accurate way.

18:37Jill Duffy: What I've heard this topic talked about before, it's always about like how to get rid of that feeling. But you're saying, no, don't get rid of it. That it's a sign things could be working, going your way.

18:50Michael Arterberry: Yes. And I'm so glad you say that because that, you know, if you Google, if you look up articles, if you look up every book that's ever been written, it's all about, you know, building confidence and thinking positively. And if people are able to do that, that's perfectly fine. But most of us have tried and tried and tried and failed because our brains don't work this way, because we want to continue to challenge ourselves, because we're evolutionarily designed in this way. And so then now we're trying to get more confident, waiting to take on challenges until we feel more confident, failing at building confidence, and then feeling even more terrible than where we started.

19:31Michael Arterberry: And I just don't think that's the best way forward. I think the best way forward is to learn to change our relationship to these thoughts and feelings so that we can be aware of them and observe them, but also not let them be in charge of the decisions that we're making. but to really let what matters to us, our values, who we want to be, how we want to show up in the world, what kind of life we want, to let that be what really drives us. And then that means we're often going to have to do it scared. And that's okay. We can do things when we're feeling anxious and full of self-doubt because they're really just feelings.

20:08Jill Duffy: It isn't like you necessarily have these feelings or you don't. It seems to be a spectrum, like a scale, because sometimes I have felt like a real imposter, and other times I felt a little like an imposter. Like, it's a sliding scale, right?

20:24Michael Arterberry: Definitely. And I think it's context dependent. I think it depends on, you know, as you were saying earlier, kind of where you are along the learning curve in whichever context you're part of. I interviewed one person for my book who had had really significant imposter, imposterism, and his did fade over time. And he attributed that to being in he was in a number of elite universities, he's a physician, and, you know, has a background at Stanford and at Harvard. And he had said that he had he felt like a fraud initially in these places, but ultimately was surrounded by, like leaders who really sent the message, if you're here, you deserve to be here.

21:13Michael Arterberry: And I think for some people, they can hear that and not take it in. And they would certainly say, well, yeah, everybody else deserves to be here, but they're going to find out any minute that I'm the one person who fooled them all and doesn't belong here. But for him, he was an example where he was able to take those messages in. And so that did fade for him over time. Now, it's certainly possible that it would pop up again if he were in a new situation where he felt less expert, etc., as you've commented on before.

21:44Jill Duffy: So here's the thing, though. As I said, everything I've ever heard about this is you need to get rid of these feelings. So you come along and say, no, they're okay, but they're really uncomfortable to live with. So how do you make peace with them and not lay in bed at night worrying about what a fraud you are if this is supposed to be an okay thing?

22:07Michael Arterberry: If there were, you know, I know in your podcast you want to give like tips, the thing that you should know, right, to sort of live your life differently. And when I think about if there were one thing that I could teach human beings that I genuinely believe would dramatically change the trajectory of their life, it is very, very simple. It's not easy and it takes practice, but it's very simple. And it is getting comfortable being uncomfortable. Because if you think about everything we do or don't do, especially where we stay stuck, it's because we don't want to feel the discomfort, right? We avoid conflict or other difficult kinds of conversations.

22:47Michael Arterberry: We don't go after big things. You know, there's fear of rejection, humiliation, failure. And if we were willing to experience those feelings, there's like nothing that we couldn't do. And so, of course, easier said than done. But if you can learn, there are lots of different strategies for teaching people how to strengthen these willingness muscles. So for example, if you want, we can even do a really quick one right now where if you and your listeners, if you just fold your hands or your arms the way that feels natural and comfortable and just notice how it feels and now switch it. So cross your arms the quote unquote wrong way, the funny feeling way, or switch your fingers so you're just one over from where you were.

23:34Michael Arterberry: And now notice how that feels. And notice especially the urge to let go or the urge to put it back to the quote unquote right way. And can you breathe and make space and just let this experience that's here just be? It's uncomfortable, but it's not dangerous. It's temporary and you can handle it. You know, we tell ourselves that we can't tolerate these things, but at the end of the day, it's just a feeling. Really, it's just a feeling, right? And so there are many, many different ways that we can practice being uncomfortable in ways that are like benign and playful and sort of strengthen those muscles so that we can work our way up to things that are a little more challenging.

24:19Michael Arterberry: I like to have clients, you know, in the summertime, go ride a roller coaster or in session, we'll watch movie clips like jump scares on YouTube or the last five minutes of Marley and Me when they put the dog down and practice letting ourselves experience whatever emotion happens to show up without doing anything to stuff it down or push it away or avoid it. And it's incredibly powerful. And we can all do that without ever going to therapy.

24:49Jill Duffy: It almost sounds like you're saying that if you're not feeling like an imposter, maybe you're not striving enough.

24:56Michael Arterberry: I think that is very possible. Yes, that you're not. Now, some people, it may not be in some person's set of values to be ambitious, to engage in skill building, to challenge themselves. And that's perfectly fine. This is not like everyone should be striving and doing more. And if you don't feel like an imposter, you're doing something wrong. This is really individually based on your personal values. But if those are things that matter to you and you find that you're not feeling anxious or having any doubt or any imposterism, then that might be a sign that it's time to think about what's next.

25:35Michael Arterberry: And if you're avoiding what's next to avoid those thoughts and feelings, then certainly that's something to pay attention to.

25:42Jill Duffy: Well, this is really great because it's such a different message and it's very freeing because rather than fight it, embrace it, and it's a problem that you don't need to solve.

25:56Michael Arterberry: Yep, exactly. And I think that's probably the most common feedback I'm getting about this book, is this is freeing, and that it's different, and that it feels freeing. Like, oh, I can sort of exhale and let go of this burden that I've been carrying.

26:12Jill Duffy: Well, that's a really refreshing look at the imposter syndrome. I really enjoyed this. I've been speaking with Dr. Jill Stoddard. She's a mental health care provider. She's authored a couple of books, and one is called Imposter No More, Overcome Self-Doubt and Imposterism to Cultivate a Successful Career. And if you'd like to read it, there's a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Thank you for coming on and explaining all this, Jill. I appreciate it.

26:38Michael Arterberry: Well, thank you so much for having me, Mike. This has been a really fun and interesting conversation.

26:43Jill Duffy: And that brings this SYSK Trending episode to a close. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.