Matt Booty on the future of Xbox and Ball and Gun Game Interview

28:33And he does. But in between the time of you having this cataclysmic event happen, this robot then kind of rescue you. You learn what her purpose is or what the reasoning is behind who she is as a robot. Even before you get to those kind of later conversations, there is this feeling that these two are family or trying to be family or that this person is trying to take care of this robot that looks like a little girl and it's just no it's just so unbelievable it just doesn't make any sense like i know that there's supposed to be a level of suspension of disbelief when you go into games like this but the ask for you to have this emotional tie, even as you as a player at home, or as Hugh as the character who is the main protagonist in this game, just doesn't make any sense.

29:34It makes no sense that this person who is seeing all of these 3D printed animal, you know, robots and all this other kind of stuff have this one small humanoid robot come up into his life and be like, I have to really keep this thing alive. I have to really make sure this thing is safe. I am having this emotional connection to this robot when there's no setup. There's no setup. There's no real reasoning behind it. There isn't even an actual benefit to it besides the robot helping you kind of get through this new mission that you found yourself on. And that part was really frustrating as a player, as a person who loves narrative.

30:20this had the potential to have some really dope narrative and it falls extremely short and feels forced and feels like it pulls away from this game getting to its fullest potential now mind you again combat is great graphically this thing is beautiful and stunning i think it does a lot of really interesting things that are good the cut scenes are good there's weird parts that are disparate between the cut scenes and when you go talk to her in the lab, uh, where it's like the lip syncing is really bad in the lab, but in the cut scenes, they're, they're pretty fantastic and good. And it winds up being anticlimactic climactic because all of that potential emotional buildup doesn't really have anywhere to go because it doesn't have any, it didn't even start anywhere.

31:06There should be this connection that is built between characters. There should be this connection that is made in a narrative pieces of a story like this that make you want to care but i wound up being in this space where i was getting halfway through the game and i was like man i want this thing to hurry up and finish i was i was having fun but i was like really bored with the one noteness of a thing that felt very novel at first which is the hacking and doing that thing which again there are elements where it ramps up but it also then starts to feel very one note after that, after a while. It starts to get very, very similar in all the things you're doing, all the things you're trying to do.

31:49There's a ton of collectibles to go find. I had no real purpose in finding any of those collectibles to be able to do that thing because I just didn't care enough. The suits that you would wind up getting and the kind of news cosmetics weren't good enough for me to care about grinding it out. There's a bunch of training sessions that will let you gain some more of those you know, stamps that you would use to make and find those, those new things. There were some new weapons that that wind up coming into the, into, into the playthrough throughout it. And those were good. Those felt great. Those felt fun.

32:24Those are super useful. But like, there was no real reason for me to, to, to try to a hundred percent this game in that way, because of all of those pieces that kind of just fell short. So I'm happy Pragmatis in the world. I'm happy it's a thing that's there. I'm happy that Capcom continues to make weird and new and interesting things. They have been having a good year. And I would say of all the games that have come out so far, I've been looking forward to this. And this was a bigger disappointment than most things that I find disappointing. Only because I just went into it with a really high set of hopes for it.

33:02And it felt very middling in that way. so I think you should definitely go check it out I think you should go play it though I don't think it's a thing you should miss because of the novelty of what they're doing and mashing up this kind of puzzle and action shooter game but I think you should go in with very temperate expectations in terms of how you are going to vibe with it from a story perspective or if you're going to feel very connected to the characters within it so good stuff from Capcom but I think this is their first not miss but this is their first you know not bullseye of of 2026 so far so we're gonna take a quick break uh we're gonna come back with our interview with our friends from ball and gun gamers and we'll be right back after this what if you could transform your body level up your mind and unleash your warrior spirit all by playing a role-playing game well now you can with infinite the world's first science-backed fitness fantasy RPG where real-world progress becomes your power.

34:10Create your avatar based on your goals and level, then explore game modes like the Dungeon, Academy, and Sanctum, using powerful tools and apps to forge real transformation. You ready to combine fitness and gaming to unlock your ultimate potential? then visit fitness fantasy rpg.com and use the code spawn on me for 10 off your custom plan play infinite and become the hero of your own fitness story yo welcome back to the spawn on me podcast thank you so much for coming back to the show uh we have a really dope interview with our friends from ball and gun gamers uh take take a listen to this bad boy because we had a ton of fun talking to them about their origins, what they're trying to do, what their GDC was like, and how it was getting to see their game played by one of their content creation idols in the Black Hokage over from GI Update.

35:05So go check out the interview right about now. What's good everybody Ember Kago, this is Khalif here and we have a very special episode with some very special gentlemen that I have been really excited to talk to because I was at GDC this year. You were at GDC with me this year. And I had this young brother roll up on me. He was like, yo, fam, yo, check out my stuff. He did punch me in the ribs and I was okay with it because he's a little bit taller than I am. And I was like, hey, hey, okay, no doubt, I'll play. I'll check it out. And it was one of my favorite experiences of GDC. So we have the gentlemen behind Ball and Gun Game who are here on Spawn on Me to rock with us today.

35:48Art Grayson and Adam Cooper. Thank you so much for being here today. I have been so excited. Thanks for playing on Mixtape. I mean, look, look, look. It is so much better than getting stabbed with a CD on the corner. I have been cut many times on the Seattle corner going to PAX with cats who roll up on me talking about, like, yo, can you listen to my mixtape? And I'm like, fam, you do know that Spotify exists. Can you please stop trying to stab me with the CD while I'm walking down the street and trying to get a Starbucks? Leave me alone, man. I know the music is in your soul, but I also want to just eat this bagel real quick.

36:27Can I eat the bagel? I'm hyped to have you on the show. I've been very excited to talk to you both. I have been enamored with the energy that you both bring to this space. And I've been super, super happy to see that ball and gun game has gotten so much love in the space over the past couple of weeks gentlemen I want to hear the origin story because I think the what a lot of folks don't know is that when you go to GDC for the first time it's it's it's a little bit daunting to be able to go through the process of having something to show going and talking to folks who you might not necessarily know and getting that first impression from folks in that space but before we talk about GDC specifically, I do want to talk about how you two met and how you two began to build this dope studio that is now bringing something that I think is specifically and really, really for the culture in a real way.

37:19Talk to me a little bit about yourselves and how you both met and how you kind of crafted this dope studio to bring Ball and Gun Game to life. For sure. Well, I'm Aaron Cooper. Of course, that's my brother from another mother, Art Grayson. We met in college, actually, freshman year. I walked right in. What do they call it? Bright-eyed, bushy-tailed. Saw this brother, and then we've just been kicking it ever since, man. Like, as close to family as family can family. That's my brother. And then we go back a long, long time. As far as games go, I'm the gamer. Gaming since, I think, Street Fighter II on the Commodore 64.

37:59It's the first game I ever saw. And every time I say the Commodore 64, they're like, the Commodores? I'm like, no, no, not the common.

38:08Ever since then, in my neighbor's garage, we played that, and I've just been hooked ever since. So I'm a tobacconist in the day and at night. I get my game on, and we make some games. My brother here is a nuclear engineer, a tech wizard, just the man knows no stranger. Like you said, he'll pop right up on you. Hey, man, what's going on? And then immediately in your life forever, man. Love that dude. And like I said, we go way, way, way, way back. So, Art? Yeah, no, I mean, that's literally the same. I mean, I just remember meeting Aaron for the first time and being like, yo, where are you from?

38:45And he's like, Cali. And I was like, same, you my brother.

38:52And just from then on, just literally been pretty much inseparable in all the adventures. He's right though, man. I mean, who doesn't grow up gaming, right? I mean, but for me, it's all the stuff that like, that just feels good for me. I'm like the feel good gamer. Right. I don't necessarily get into the weeds of things, but I think with all of this, the origins of art and Aaron, it is all about this creative dynamism. We're always crafting stories. We're always thinking about, yo, what if we what if this what if this? and then that'll take us on a nice little journey. And that's just fulfilling as an individual to have somebody that you've grown up with over 20 plus years that you just can continually reinvent and reinvent and do new things.

39:45And there seems to be no balance to that. So, I mean, that's just a little bit of it. But obviously you could tell we're a bunch of goofballs. Just to say the least. I mean, to say the least, you know, case in point, we ain't come empty handed, man. Nope. the culture. You don't walk up in somebody's house invited and come empty-handed, man. Do you think we could leave? Would it be all right, brother, if we shared some things that we brought for you? Oh, I'm here. I'm ready for all the goodness. What you got? You got some goodies? We do. We do. We do. Before we got too deep into things, we wanted to just give flowers and give credit where credit is due.

40:26First up, I just wanted to say this made a big deal in our lives as gamers. Can I hold that up? This made my life as a gamer. And I just wanted to enshrine this. And Aaron and I wanted to do a quick call in and say, Brother Black Hokage, we want to get this to you as our thanks for literally being the highlight of our lives as gamers. Because I was standing in TSA checkpoint, like screaming my head off when I saw him saying screaming this is a thank you oh my goodness so I want to give a little bit of background to this part so for folks who don't know in the space the term ball and gun gamer which is one of the funniest things on the planet and I do have to give again TBH the black okage who's a who's a friend of mine and and one of the dopest people on the planet his flowers and kudos for for coining this phrase that has actually i feel like gotten into the culture in a real way of gaming in the gaming space where the the premise is folks who don't have a vast array of games that they play play oh it's like that's me uh who don't have a vast array of games that they play play things that are just with a ball or just with a gun so you are playing a game that you just shoot in or a game that is involving a football basketball baseball or just a sports game in general and the idea around that has been really funny because you know for folks who are doing this work there's been a lot of discussion about like the people who say they play stuff and then the people who actually play stuff um and the ball and gun gamers have been in this very interesting sliver of that gaming community who talk a bunch of shit, but don't play a lot of stuff.

42:26So, so, so TBH had made this. They had, they had a really great article that got up into the Washington Post with the homie Gene Park, featuring him and the rest of our friends over at Gaming Illuminati and talking about the phrasing of this and what that means for, for the culture. So when Art rolled up to me at GDC and shared, my mixtape, my mixtape, literally made a game with Aaron that is ball and gun game I started to crack up because I had one gave you massive props of love because I was like that's some smart shit right there good job capturing the moment um and bringing this to life in a real way but also then you have the phrasing of getting a chance to see Black Okage play your game on stream and share that sentiment.

43:21If you are familiar with TBH's content, there has been a long drawn-out conversation around the community manager of the NBA 2K franchise, Ronnie 2K, who, no matter where you are and whatever your personal opinions are of the djent, has given something else to the culture as well. I will let that be what that be. But TBH shared that moment on his stream, and now he's been immortalized in a shirt that is now framed that we will figure out a way to get to TBH. But that's not all. Oh, my goodness, more? That ain't all. That ain't all. So, like I said, when y 'all were at GDC, I was the man in the chair.

44:07You know what I'm saying? I'm looking. I'm watching this brother. I'm watching you pop up your video. That cannot be overlooked as well. So I actually went out. We have a bracket tournament in our game. We made a trophy. We actually have a ball and gun trophy. We want to deliver that to you, sir. Oh, hell yeah. We do appreciate you. So we can definitely get this whole entire trophy to you. It's got the whole ball and gun. It's the bracket champion, but I said we got that made. But you will be the first one to get that ever. Collectible, one of one. I will have to find a way. Because first of all, that is beautiful.

44:40and I appreciate y 'all for that because that's fantastic. I love stuff like that and having being immortalized in games. Some of the detail of it, the ball and the gun. It is fantastic. But I tell you, we are nerds. But I tell you, we are nerds. You got the gun there. Got the ball down here. You can remove it. You can take out. It's got an LED light so you can have the flashing lights going on. What? It's all for you, brother. You brought some fools in your house. these niggas don't know how to stop oh my god that's the best thing on the planet that i that's going on the mantle mantle that's not even going in the studio that's going in the crib in the living room mantle oh my god first of all i have to thank you both um because you know i wrote this on uh the you know when i was sharing more information about what you know the the video that we shared of you getting me showing it i'm sorry of you showing the game to me at gdc went viral it's probably over two million views now at this point uh and and that was that was a blessing to everyone in the equation but for me it really spoke to again why i love going to gdc i think as a person who's been going to that conference now for probably eight or nine years or something like that covering the show what bubbles up from those moments is these kinds of of incidents where you get a chance to see young brothers who are really coming to a space and saying someone look at this thing that i've had in my mind for so long and how do we figure out a way to get this out into the world it makes me so happy to see that that is kind of pushed towards you know this vortex of dopeness that you two have brought to the world and giving more of this good energy to the space.

46:33That gives me a space to talk a little bit about what the reception was at GDC. But before we do that, I do want to show the trailer of the game to the folks at home who may not necessarily have known about this. And now this is the first time you're hearing about it and being on your radar. So we're going to run that right about now.

47:02Thank you.

47:32So that's fantastic. That's awesome. So give the folks at home. Stop jamming. Hell yeah, you got it. I put some dope music in the background. So give the folks at home again, like we've talked about the kind of ethos of the, you know, the origin of the name. Yeah. But talk to me specifically about what we saw in the trailer and what is encapsulating the gameplay here. What's the gameplay loop for the game here? Got that, brother. Yeah, so in terms of gameplay, it's like you're coming in, you're a brother on the court, you're hooping, and the whole all hell breaks loose, right? And it's you trying to play basketball, trying to survive in the zombie apocalypse.

48:16And that's the whole premise of the game. You got a ball, you got a gun, get to it. Trying to make your shot and stay alive. I love the fact that you added... I'm not going to go into the whole social commentary. You mean this is not the CNN of ball and gun games? This is not going to show up on World News tonight. But I love the fact that you have added intricacies of the basketball game into something that is so very different. And you would think that these two genres would not mash up well. but i like the fact that you added so many interesting intricacies of like i'm gonna cross up this zombie while i'm trying to score on him and shoot him at the same time talk to me a little bit about i want to i want to talk to you to aaron on this part talk to me a little bit about like when you were concepting this out when you were both kind of thinking about the what is the main loop here what was the first kinds of things that we were like all right we want to really bring this together in a way that feels fun and feels interesting while also being a little tongue in cheek in terms of referencing exactly what the the conversation was talk to me a little about what that was when you were kind of napkin you know a brainstorming this thing out exactly i think it actually was on a napkin when we started so that was uh it's kind of how we got into that but it literally started from our conversation that we had we we were tinkering we're starting to get games.

49:48We don't have any professional gaming background. Like I said, it's just personal gaming background. We've done a lot of things. So we tinker with some tech-based games, like Hugo's House of Horrors type games and stuff like that. And then we got into this where, you know, Art was like, you know, has there ever been a game with a ball and a gun in it? And I was like, I think so, but there's about to be if there isn't. So we immediately We immediately got to it. And the whole first person aspect was basically I was trying to, we were trying to meld 2K with like Goldeneye or something like that.

50:22Have that kind of low poly, you know, kind of potato graphics in it. So you can do what you want in this world. You know, you're taken through to this ballpocalypse, right? You're just a brother in the gym. And all of a sudden the basketball gods just choose you as their avatar. And you get shot into this world. and now you got to survive and you got a ball and you got a gun and you're getting bestowed with all these powers as you go so the whole progression of survival horror mixed with a single-player roguelike so as you're getting better as you're getting more points you're getting more powers you're getting better guns so that kind of progression system was important because you know i play a lot of roguelike games as well i was like oh we can make a roguelike has there been a basketball roguelike i'm sure has there been a basketball roguelike that's first person probably not but literally it is about to be so we just really really got on to it and it was really fun just starting to delve into that world and seeing what we can do and mesh around with 3d assets um and stuff like that and uh it's it's turned out really really great and i'm so glad and i'm so happy with the uh reception we've got it's just amazing so so art i want i want to go to you i want to i want to send it to you for a second and say so what was the impetus to go to GDC with this?

51:41Because that's a big jump. Dollar and a dream? Dollar and a dream, right? In a real way, right? Was that the worst? Was it more complicated than that, Aaron? No. I think it was literally a dollar and a dream. Woke up from a dream with one dollar. Let's go. And what... Okay, so going to GDC, because my thing is, like, a lot of folks who are not game dev don't think of the biggest game developers conference on the planet to be like i'm gonna go and showcase my thing in this way because that's very like to be fair well i love it man if there was that much thought for a thought that's giving us credit khalif that's giving us credit but here's the thing though which which is the reason why i love your story so much is because it is a very old school thing that you did like you may not even know it but like when i first started going to GDC, when I first started getting into this thing, God, the show has been here 13 years.

52:39I've been doing it in this space for 15 years. When I first used to go to conferences, that was the way you got your stuff in front of people. You would literally walk up to somebody. I've met so many folks now who have graduated to putting major games on consoles and things like that, where they walked around with their iPad and they were like, yo, check out my thing. so it was really refreshing to be able to see you kind of doing that in that way and finding that thing you know we had our interaction but when you went when you went to go kind of talk to other people during your time there what was the kind of vibe for yourself because you know it takes a lot for someone to just roll up on somebody who's like hey check out my thing that's a lot of confidence and aspirational boldness, which I like to think of in that way.

53:27Talk to me a little bit about, what was your thought process when you were kind of in that space? Because that's not easy to do for a lot of people. There are people who don't do that anymore because they're scared to do it. Talk to me about what that was like. You know, I used to have, my oldest sister used to say, in a lot of ways, some people don't walk through the fire because they don't see the path. You know, and all I feel like Aaron and I are the kind of folks that only see the path where we just don't see the fire. And then you have folks on the outside like, why would you do that? And we're like, what do you mean?

54:04We just went from here to here. So, you know, and that's not to make light of the seriousness and gravity of the conference and its history and what it presents in terms of the opportunities and why folks go, all of which we find out after the fact, thanks to community that has come and really put their arms around us you know and loved us and brought us in folks like you folks like you know blacks and gaming um that have really that have really really like stepped out and been like are y 'all serious though we're like i mean as serious as you'll let us be i mean we know this in our lane but like we love this we would love to do more and and then it's it's been the like all right all right here's a plate you know i'm saying Like that's the cookout vibes.

54:47Right. And and so so I think that's been sort of what it was felt like in terms of what it was like to go. It was sort of like, you know, mind you, we both had tickets to go. So, you know, exigent circumstances and whatnot. And my brother couldn't make it. So that's why he fell back to man in the chair, which turned out to be such a blessing in another way. blessing in disguise because in so many ways i couldn't see the forest for the trees right it was meeting folks like you and and being like hey what's going on uh i've got a game i'd love to just get some feedback and you know would you would you take a look uh and just having that happen and then aaron hit me up being like who are you just talking to being like uh somebody i just Meanwhile, he's seeing numbers tick.

55:42He's seeing shares happen. And he's telling me, you know, about how this is developing. And I think it just wound up being a long series of very unusual, potentially unusual, like, in the broad sense. But it seemed natural to me. I met so-and-so. They were like, you should talk to so-and-so. They deal with, you know, games like this. And I just figured it's like, ah, you know, someone over here likes silly games like that, too. They're into Flash games. You should go talk with them. and I go talk with them and we have a great chat and they're like, I'd love to help you guys out. You know, we're going to have a thing later today.

56:17And then you wind up at Big Fest for the first time without even realizing there was a whole community of folks out there for us doing this kind of thing with folks who would just be more than happy to commune with you and tell you about this story and just make sure you feel like, you know, whether or not something you've done is exceptional or unique you're not alone in doing it right and that that was huge that was huge right um so so yeah i think i think one of the things that and i love to hear you talk about it in that way because i also understand like i'm sure i probably know the folks that you were that you ran into and then how that transitioned into into big fest stuff and one of the things that i that i find in this space and i think a lot of people don't know is um that level of camaraderie is there within black game dev in a way that i've not seen across other space i know it happens across other groups as well like our latinx and gaming fam are are super connected in that way our indigenous folks in that space are super connected in that way and we all have pieces of This much larger puzzle that we're all trying to figure out within this space.

57:28But what I what I find is that when you do have folks who come to it with a real genuine energy of wanting to learn, wanting to get more connected, you know, the fact that you are both kind of outsiders kind of coming into the space for the first time, it is very much a welcoming space because we're all trying to lift each other up in the ways that we possibly can. because we know that there are a ton of avenues for us to be able to do this work in the ways that we used to and the way that we want to kind of continue to do this way now so i'm happy that you met a lot of those folks because that was that's the that's the best part of going to gdc is that you will find beginner friends that wind up becoming lifelong family in those ways which is which is great um aaron i do want to go back to you because i think you know once we once we share the information out i love how art kind of talked about it you kind of being the man in the chair kind of you know in Cobra command uh watching everything in the background uh kind of happened what were the conversations between you two when it started to kind of blow up well in between all the screaming and stuff we were doing just the excitement right guys it was really um and then uh art did a very good uh very good job of making me feel like I was there you know we were on the calls we were on speakerphone pretty much the whole time I got to talk to a lot of people hey hey yeah you know i think gordon bell and i got to speak to him and a few other folks um which i really appreciate so kind of almost in a way lived vicariously through him i felt like i was there um but most of it was you know general excitement for what we were doing trying to get people to have as much fun with what we were having fun with and um you know having fun making that and just the ease and uh you know to get it to people like you said to walk right up to people, hey, it's just ballandgun.com.

59:15Here, you can play it here, or you can play it on your phone. You can play it at home at the hotel. You know, it's just, I felt that was, we both felt that was very important. But most of our conversations were about that, how we can improve, just how we can learn. This isn't an industry I ever thought I'd ever be in. It felt more like a hobby my entire life. I never thought this would ever happen. And it's happening so fast. And it's just exciting. So it was a lot of excitement, and it continues to be. So that was mainly with our conversation. And if I could say we were coming on the heels of Blurred Con, man.

59:48Oh, yeah. You know Blurred Con, man. It's a hang. So we were coming with that energy, too. That's actually really, really telling, too, because I think when I think of the conferences right now where we're really seeing the culture kind of have its best moments, Art Blurred Con Dream Con that's coming up very soon and I'm hoping that you all are going to Dream Con because that would be a fantastic look but I think the yeah man I mean hey I don't know them cats but I know cats who might know them cats so we'll figure it out that's a perfect time to actually go to TBH and crew because they might know those folks but I think from a cultural standpoint I think it was really important to have this moment but also So I think I want to give you both some flowers for and some kudos for is, you know, you talk a little bit about kind of throwing yourselves into the fire with GDC, but you came prepared, which I thought was really, really impressive to me.

1:00:49I think there's a lot of folks who, when they first debut their game or showcase their thing, they don't have infrastructure ready. They don't have tournaments and brackets ready. They don't have those elements of their game kind of ready. You can play asynchronously with different folks, have leaderboards already ready to go. How important was it for you to all have that layer of infrastructure kind of ready to go when debuting it and showing it to folks for the first time? Because that is the thing that a lot of first-time devs at this level haven't thought about. They're not even thinking about this subject.

1:01:26They're just like, here's the prototype, right? So talk to me about what that was like to have a fully fledged, ready to go game in this way that you can showcase to people. Talk to me about what that was like. Yeah, Aaron, you want to roll?

1:01:43So first, I didn't know that was even a thing. I thought, you know, we just need to be as prepared as possible with as much content we can put in this game to get in front of people. And it was sleepless nights of work just trying to get it from, like I said, concept and ideation to actually playability. And then now it works. Now it's fun. Now make it even more fun and then see as much stuff as we can add to it while staying in this, you know, ball and gun realm. You know, so adding these brackets and it just happens to be March Madness and stuff right now. So, you know, tying all that stuff together and trying to be as basketball centric and for the culture as much as possible.

1:02:23But it definitely felt like, like I said, trying to put all that stuff together and put something out as that's as good as we can make it. you know and just to hear you say that um it's like a lot of people just come with uh you know maybe even concepts and stuff like that it just blows my mind because i never never imagined i kind of thought we didn't have enough because i was like it's not enough yeah it's not enough we need more yeah maybe not maybe not yeah i think that kind of took me aback as well too i don't think i i i really knew that um and not to say that we took that for granted or anything like that but scope creep is a real thing um and in terms of keeping the scale of a project manageable um and keeping what you expect to deliver achievable um you know we we definitely worked really hard on reining in our but we've got years of practice in doing this because we've done so many different projects but we definitely reined in our creative ideas we have an insane ice box full of backlogged features and concepts and other things we've got builds on builds on builds waiting for maybe future releases and other concepts and ideas that we just feel like, this is essentially, let's table this.

1:03:38It doesn't feel core to what needs to happen first. But yeah, I don't think we ever thought like, oh yeah, we definitely have like a fully fleshed out thing. We were saying it was tech demo for the long time. Literally tech demo. I think we felt comfortable of calling it Alpha the day before we got to GDC. We were like, let's start calling it Alpha. I think, you know, we still call it Alpha. We had a lot of fun. Not single bug. It didn't crash. You know, it was great. It was a smooth experience. And we were like, we can call it Alpha now. I mean, yeah, man. But it comes to the scale, scale of architecture.

1:04:16I mean, if you want us to talk a little bit about that, I mean, that just felt like natural. Also, I think in terms of concept, like the blessing there comes from Aaron because he understands like the sense of player experience. And then for me, I'm like, what supports that experience? And I don't think twice about that, right? And then we just build for it. You know, I've got this old adage, make it work, make it better, make it beautiful. And we went back and forth through those things, iterating in a very agile process, working on what was functional, what was rapidly prototyped, you know? And I'm a nut, right?

1:04:57I got an idea five minutes later, I want to put it in somebody's hands. Yeah, Warlock. So we were like in a very agile way, honing in scope and also rapidly prototyping, getting feedback fast from friends and family, going back to, you know, back to the lab, letting Aaron drill deep on what the player experience needs to be. And then me just like saying what needs to support that and then go show it to somebody again. We just did that literally until the day before we went to Bluricon. And then I think it was what, March 8th? Went to sleep, woke up and then got on a flight to San Francisco. So there was no, oh, I think it's polished enough.

1:05:33It was just like, we'll work on this until we can put it in somebody's hands. And we were just constantly putting it in people's hands who were not at shows and conferences until the day we went to one. Yeah, because when you showed it to me initially, the first thing I thought was, oh, this does feel like the initial MVP. but also when we had more conversations about, you know, how you're thinking about what you currently have, the tech stack that you were currently working on, and then thinking about what you were looking to do in terms of expanding that. And then again, I was blown away by the fact that you were like, oh no, we got leaderboards ready.

1:06:08That's already happening. We got ways you can play with other people. We're already having some, some, some bracket stuff, which are things that I think, again, And for a person who is still learning how some of the soup gets made, it was really impressive to be able to see those pieces kind of already be not only, again, thought about and prototyped and implemented in the space on a mobile game that then can be played on multiple devices and with multiple input styles as well. you know but getting that good initial conversation and there i was like oh these these brothers are really thinking about this in a smart way and doing it in a way that doesn't feel foreign to trying to do too much because that's also a part of it too where it's like when you wind up getting into a space and you're like oh we tried to throw the kitchen sink in here it winds up diluting the the kind of baseline premise of it which again if you're connecting the culture to the game to the product, it winds up feeling all super, super synergistic in that way.

1:07:11Like it all feels really smartly put together, which I think is was really, really cool. Now we talked a little bit about getting emotional over here, Khaleem. I got to give people props because again, like I think we are all trying to figure out where we get in where we fit in in this industry. And I think the the the work twice as hard to get half as much is still true across multiple spaces. So you You have to come with your A-plus game to be able to do that stuff. And I think when you have something like this, it shows that there is a space to continue to go and move forward while also understanding that the foundation is very solid, which I think is important for a lot of people to understand.

1:07:51That's a thing for potential funding and connections to collaborations with other folks. Because I'm like, the more that I play around with it and see it, And I'm like, oh, this could have some dope secondary branding on this thing. Like, this is a perfect thing. Like, you talked about, Aaron. Like, oh, man, this is a fun March Madness thing. We can go get you some NCAA dollars. Like, talk to these cats about doing some implementations there. Oh, NBA stuff, even better. Get them in some spots. Like, don't, you know, put my nicks in there at least. But, like, you know, get some spaces in there to do more stuff with a really solid foundation.

1:08:29So I think that's the reason why I give you so many flowers on this, because I think it's important to to kind of like give people that that respect for thinking a little bit more about the process as opposed to just throwing a thing out there and being like, maybe this will work. The thing I also do want to talk to you about is we talked a little bit about, you know, the shares part of it and more people kind of seeing it. I saw a number floating around on social that how many folks, you know, post GDC had actually kind of tried it and jumped into the pool with y 'all? oh are we we're almost at 20 000 at this point oh wow um yeah yeah we've gotten we've gotten a very short amount of time i mean when you go with millions of people hearing about your game and seeing it played live on twitch by the gaming illuminati twice in the same week mind you um yeah we got a lot of we got a lot of interest um you know we we we kind of we kind of wanted to really like even you know kind of like take it head on and say like wow like maybe maybe we should do we had a lot of folks being like you know hi tell me more about the game like it would be great to see this played you know where can we go find a trailer and we like yeah we need to go like put together a trailer so we were like what if we just did something wow we did we did um a streamathon like 12 hours from noon to midnight and we were just like it was like basically a 12-hour ama But then when we started talking about it, and we had planned this out, we had like, you know, we had a 14-day, you know, roadmap to get to it.

1:10:04We had a 10-day countdown and everything. And we had folks that we met that just wanted to follow up. And, you know, this is what I mean when I say community just like brought you in. And they were like, I mean, you know, if y 'all looking on any, you know, any my two cents on levels or, you know, encounters or whatnot. Or, you know, I'm like, yes, yes. Are you camera shot? So we had folks drop into the streamathon and literally play live with us, talk about what they do. And it was a way of really just being able to give light to the folks that met us while we were at GDC, talk to Aaron and I, you know, Aaron being on the phone, on speaker, or me being right there in front of them talking about like, you know, just raving about this silly concept that we came up with about how it touched them in some way or how it, you know, harkened back to something that was just felt so nostalgic and memorable to them.

1:11:00And then to have them come on, you know, our humble little stream, you know, and play live with us that that just was amazing. So we tried a couple of things out to sort of take this wave of interest and attention and then shape it into a community. And that's no easy thing. Not that we thought it would be going in, but we had no idea we'd have the opportunity to try. So we're we're really, you know, grab the bull by the horn on this point. And and we ain't ready to stop. So we're going forward. We're loving this. So so I know you talked a little bit about, you know, the features and kind of things that are icebox right now.

1:11:39But you that may potentially see the light of day within the game. Talk to me in the audience about things that you're thinking about for the 1.2, the V2 version of Ball and Gun and what you're kind of looking for to bring to the table for the game coming up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Putting in people's hands at Blur Con, at GDC, just anywhere we go, a lot of people have a lot of input, and that's what I like. I ask people, how can we make this more fun? Because that's one of my models. I've heard you say that, Khalif. Games are supposed to be fun. I don't need to. I have cried during games. I'll admit that.

1:12:21I think I cried during Chrono Trigger. I'm just bawling. I'm just 16 pixels. Whatever, I'm a man. I'm a man.

1:12:31It's supposed to be fun. So that's kind of what we want to do. How can we make this more fun? So just soak up as much as we can. So if it's adding more levels, enhancements, things people can modify the game, just pretty much anything. We can do more weapons, more powers, eventually adding things. But like I said, not doing too much because of the scope creep. And, you know, everybody's like, when are you doing multiplayer? When are you doing multiplayer? You know, I want five on five with my friends and stuff like that. And I'm like, that sounds really good. There's a lot that goes into that that we're learning now.

1:13:05So, yeah. Just more creativity overall and just improving the game as much as we can. Okay, okay, okay. Because I know that conversation about, like, just do it. And I'm like, that's not the way it works, man. Yeah, man. How many times have I heard me say, ticket velocity, we ain't got that yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Y 'all want a lot. Y 'all got fix-it money? Give me some fix-it money. That's what I'm saying. Who's coming with that? I dig it. so here so here we're almost out of time but i do want to say um one of the things i am really really excited about for you two is i love the kind of tournament style action that you can have here the kind of bracket stuff that's in that mix what's the are you going to start doing anything that's going to be kind of time sensitive or john like not genre specific i guess it was specific but like I love the March Madness kind of potential flair.

1:14:01You got the NBA finals that's coming up, NBA players that are coming up very, very soon. Are you thinking about, you know, even kind of simple integrations like that to kind of not only bring more folks together, but, you know, thinking about what that could be for extra layers of interactivity for a game like this. Have you been thinking about stuff like that? Yeah, absolutely. So we already do have in our development pipeline right now, you know, the sort of next step of the game that we're coming in, like Aaron was talking about in terms of the level variance, enemy variance, you know, like, you know, upgrades in your loadouts and powers that you can achieve and stuff like that.

1:14:45And we're looking at the platforms that we had already earmarked at like, yes, we want to get onto this. And the questions have not stopped. When is this going to get on Steam? It's like, it's coming. It's coming. you know for sure one of the big things is like we just we want ballinggun.com to be the version of the game that is like free you know if possible for as long as possible we want that to be where you find out about it and where you play it instantly i mean one of the things that was so important um during blur con and gdc was just seeing literally like giving someone ballinggun.com and watching them go from a stranger to a player in like two clicks.

1:15:25And we're like, that person's part of our community right now. You know, why would we change that? Let's go figure out how we can make, you know, some coin, but let's not change that right now because that's working really well. You know, we've had our mobile apps in development for like two months, just like testing. We've not had to make changes. I think we're just going to go ahead and release that soon. So the mobile apps will be coming, iOS and Google Play. And for the Steam build, I think we definitely want to say a lot of the stuff we learned for GDC and Blurcon, just being able to walk you through a really good gaming experience, have something that allows you to skill build but doesn't get in the way of the fun.

1:16:12I think all of that is going to wind up being where you find that on Steam. and then that's where you'll be able to love the game and go deep with it for sure. Aaron, did I leave anything out? I think you covered it, man. We would love to, like I said, add small things, maybe, you know, little tickers, like an ESPN ticker on the bottom, something like that. Maybe try to, you know, there's so much things. Oh, we did that for brackets, remember? We actually, we knocked that one out. We did that for brackets. Oh, yeah. ESPN tickers. with the terms of the bracket. Yep. Get with some people and up-and-coming musicians that have music in the game because, you know, I got the music in the game and all the sound.

1:16:52So maybe just trying to get other people involved in this as much as we can because I can't keep doing all the voices myself. Every zombie you hear is me and it just hurts. It hurts your throat, man. Yo, if you need... Look, I'm... Seriously, no bullshit. If you dare, I'll totally do some zombie voices for y 'all. We want some Khalif out of zombie voices. Yo, I... Yo, I'll be like, uh, grits. I'll be like, in the background. Let's go into the game. Let's go into the game. Two more Adelips. Let's go. Two more Adelips. Let's go. Let's go. I need a grit zombie. I need a, what you talking about zombie?

1:17:32I need you to get off my pockets zombie. And I need, and I need, you get off my pockets. And I need a above the rim mode. That's all I need. I need an above the rim mode. where one of the zombies pull out something on you and you'll be like, what? Clap them cats up. Call it balling up for a reason. I'm saying, right? That's what I'm saying. Exclusive rights.

1:17:59That's too much. But before we go, I think this is the reason why, first of all, again, I'm so happy to see the success that is coming your way. I'm very happy to have met you both now and have this dope vibe that we've already convened with and I'm just really excited again because I think one of the reasons this show exists is to showcase the work of folks in our community who are connected to the culture it's a part of every version of every episode of this show it says we are the culture in it And I think this is one of those specific moments in this space where we get a chance to showcase that.

1:18:44And we get a chance to tell the world that like we are we are a group of people that you should be paying attention to in this space. Absolutely. There is a conversation that has been trumpeted through through me and through many of the folks that you will now be connected to. when we talk about video games are marketed to everybody but us except for those moments when they're like yeah that hip-hop track was dope yeah that's that that that that clothing was dope yeah this other thing was dope but like these cultural moments or the hair or they finally get the hair right right and you know you know if i see a zombie with a killmonger cut i'm coming for y 'all but like what no never that but you might see a zombie with some locks i'm not mad with that i'm not mad at that i'm not mad at that we'll figure that out but like these are those cultural moments that i love because it does speak to the very specific thing that we bring to the space that no one else can and i love the fact that you're you're you're honing in on that you're you're celebrating that doing it with fun doing it with a wink and a nod to a very silly thing but made something that's super fun um and i'm really excited for you brothers i'm really happy that we got a chance to meet and chop it up and see that this has now become a thing that will launch you into even more things down the road which is which is super dope um so much before we get up out of here though again let everybody know where they can go check out the game where they can find out more information about youtube because i'm sure folks who will be listening to this will want to connect with you on linkedin and all those other kind of places where the places best places that they can go check out more of the game and more of your work.

1:20:19Plug the game, Aaron. Ballandgun.com. Ballandgun.com. Ballandgun.com. You can also follow us at BallandgunGame on Instagram. We both have LinkedIn's as well and Envision Studios, NVZN Studios. You can find us on there. Like I said, just link us up there, any kind of connection. It's anywhere you can get to us. Like I said, we take as much feedback right now. we're just sponges we're soaking up as much as we can because like i said it's happening so fast and such so exciting and we want to definitely um listen to our community and listen to people and listen to people like you caliphon and just anybody uh just and like i said put our best book forward and just keep going because you know we got a voice we got things we need we want to do we're creative we want to put that creativity out there and i just feel like it's uh it's only the beginning don't forget though yeah we've joined recently um the big uh discord as well so you'll find us there.

1:21:17Or if you're still in the GDC Discord, you'll see our usernames there. And just reach out. We've been trying to just be super, super responsive. We've made friends overseas. We've made friends right in our backyards. What? You're going back to Maryland too? And a lot of that, it has extended that experience from being a Flashpoint viral moment to just being like, oh, man, we might have been a sail on the wind of a change that has been happening long before we got here. And I think what we're really doing is taking stock of that, both in how people have responded to us and brought us in and how they have pushed and pushed and pushed us to go forward and to do more, not just to be like, all right, funny guys, not back off, you know, but to be like, no, no, no, your brother's got something here.

1:22:09and you know you know hey yeah yeah and we're like awesome you know what how can we move forward um and we're still working on it right we we're not resting on the laurels here of a viral moment um you know we're really working on this game we love it and we love the community around it that supports it and you know for some ball and gun gamers that have done something like this i mean at least for one ball and gun game for a real gamer

1:22:37I'm going to try to bug Wale. Wale, you was on the show. Come check out the game. You need to go check out this thing that these brothers did because it's super, super. That would be awesome. His last album is ridiculous, man. I love it. Man, I think the last time I saw that brother, I was painting a mural in D.C. And it'd be quite a full circle moment to have him playing our video game now. I'm going to text him after the show. and be like yo go go go go check this thing oh yeah he'll probably remember the bench chili bowl mural in dc oh yeah it was uh 2018 oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah i finally got a chance to go check that spot out some years ago on a on a on a video game uh preview trips and i was like oh this is oh no kidding what year this was uh this is a while ago this is like when the division two was coming out uh so they took they let us go out to dc and they were like we're gonna take get a Ben's Chili Bowl.

1:23:32I was like, there's like no black people in this group.

1:23:38It was great. It made me feel at home because at that point I had already moved to the West Coast and I had not been in the Bronx and New York in a while. So I was like, I need some Negroes. So it was great. DC will do that for you. Thank you, gents, again, for being on the show. again I don't blow smoke I'm really really excited and happy for you both please let's continue to keep in contact and in touch and anything I can do to help with you gents with any of the endeavors I'm always happy to do so and everybody at home go check out ballandgungame.com that's ballandgungame.com and for the other cats who are out there who are going to shoot the grit zombie I'm coming for y 'all first so y 'all know what's going to happen uh got get our yeah one last thing oh no no thank you just gonna say thank you we're gonna take a quick break for this special episode of spawn on me before we get up out of here we'll all see you soon take a quick break right now hey there my name is naomi and you might know me from internet things like hosting for ign i'd like to introduce you to my new show this week in gaming.

1:24:56It's 20 minutes, short and sweet. And every week I go through all the important gaming news that you need to know. And then we have folks on like Kalief Adams, who shows up quite often, talk about all the important news. And you get to listen to it wherever you get your podcast. So it's easy to find. Just look for This Week in Gaming and make sure to give it a follow. And every week, Monday at 9 p.m. Pacific time, you get a brand new episode. I hope you'll join me. What a fantastic interview from our friends over at Ball & Gun Gamer. That was super dope. I'm happy we got a chance to meet those cats I'm honored and humbled by their statue that they will bequeath me at some point happy to see that they are continuing to push and they're doing something really smart it really does give a good viewpoint on the current state of any development where we're getting to see cats like this find new audiences in ways that they didn't think they would by just going out there and hustling, going out there and checking out the world, going out there and going to events like GDC and having their games be in front of folks who are either connected or looking to be able to kind of help those folks move forward in a direction.

1:26:07It's always really heartening to be able to see people be able to live out some of their dream in real time and being able to do that stuff. And having a small tinge of help in there always feels good too. always want to support people in all the ways that I can. So go check out bowling, uh, bowling gun game.com. Go give them some love. Uh, you can go check it out on mobile. You can play it on desktop, just put a controller onto your PC and go do that thing. Um, but for us this week, we're out of here. We're out of here this week. Uh, we're going to dip out, uh, and go check out some of the wonderful sports activities that are going to be coming up very, very soon.

1:26:43Uh, and go check out more of the content that's on Spawn of Me's feeds. We put out a bunch of stuff, uh, over the past couple of weeks. And I'll be at the icons conference in a couple of weeks. So we may not have a show next week, depending upon what happens later on in the week. I'm sure some things will happen probably Wednesday or Thursday or so. So you may see an episode, a quick episode, pull into the feeds from there. Leave us some feedback. Let us know how we're doing. Let me know how I'm doing. Let me know what folks you want to go see. Come on to the show to come hang out and talk to us about video games and again subscribe to all of our stuff on spotify apple podcast all the places that you go to go check out video game dopeness so until then much love to you all have a wonderful rest of your week wash your hands wash your butt and we will see you all very very soon much love and peace