The Real Story of Take Us North — Direct from the Developers

0:01Spawn on Me is the premier podcast spotlighting people of color. Every week we talk news, what we've been playing, and tell you who's invited to the cookout. Our show is all about talking about gaming through a prism of blackness because we are the culture. Welcome to Bukako, y 'all. Yo, what's good, everybody? This is the Spawn on Me podcast with Kahlief Adams. I'm your host, Kahlief Adams. Hope you're doing well, having a wonderful week. Hope you are getting it in and making things happen. We are doing the same here in Burkago with another banger episode for all of you at home. If you have been checking out our content, please make sure to share it out.

0:39We are doing some dope things over on Spotify, on YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, all the places that you know. We do great content is where those places are. And we are always on there making it happen. We have a really, really good episode today talking to the team from Take Us North about their fantastic Kickstarter Around a Game, discussing really important topics like immigration and the conversation about what does it mean to come to this country and try to find a new life and try to find ways to make a better one in a time where we're seeing a huge pushback against the conversations around immigration in this country and discussion points around why it is important to be able to get to the world.

1:23to tell that human story in a very big way. So we're gonna have a really dope interview with the team coming up in a second, but first check out some of the good stuff that's really out there for us on the feeds. We just did our Gamescom recap, which is really great. I'll be putting up a Gears review in the next day or two. I wanted to make sure that I included some thoughts about multiplayer, but it wasn't really available. There weren't a ton of people playing during the same times for us to get some multiplayer sessions in. So I'm gonna hold off a little bit and get those things in together and make sure that that's included in the review.

1:56So hold off on that. I just got a code for Hell Is Us. So I'll be checking that out as well. Super excited to go check that thing out after playing the demo. And man, there's some really good stuff out on the feeds. Helldivers just dropped today, which is really exciting on Xbox. So I'll be squashing some bugs at some point as well. So without further ado, I'm gonna kick us to our interview with the team. And then we'll have a couple of quick thoughts on the back end. So check it out. Here it goes. What's good, everybody, Merkaga? We are here and I'm rocking with someone who I've been dying to get on the show because there is a really, really cool project that they are working on that I think is super important for all of us to be able to rally around and make sure that we are paying attention to.

2:38Coming to us from Anima Interactive, founder Carla Reyes, how are you doing? How's everything going? I'm well, thank you. I'm actually feeling pretty relaxed right now, which is nice. and slightly atypical in the world of indie game development, but feeling pretty chill. Thank you. How are you? Feeling chill is the most like, is that an actual thing in indie game development? Does that actually happen in the real world? How does that work? I am doing well, but I am super excited to talk to you about your new project and the project that your team is building together called Take Us North. It is an amazingly interesting game around the conversation around immigration, around folks who are looking to find a new life in different ways.

3:29And I think in the current state of the world, we are finding so many different discussions that are coming up and that are really important. And the fact that you're taking this on head on is super, super cool. And I'm so excited to talk about it today. For the folks who are at home, who are hearing this conversation for the first time, getting to meet you for the first time and the work you're doing, talk to us a little bit about what this project is in Take Us North. Sure. Thanks, Khalif. So Take Us North is a narrative driven, interactive experience that immerses players in the journeys of migrants and asylum seekers crossing the U.S.-Mexico border.

4:10So as you said, it's a very relevant and urgent topic. Although it's, you know, even though it's really urgent and relevant now, this is kind of timeless and the notion of migration and immigration are universal. And that's what we hope ultimately resonates with people is this ability to connect with this topic, especially with people around the world who might be getting a specific perspective right on the news or even within the US. And I think this is one of the reasons why we're focused on this topic is to really capture the nuance and complexity of it, because unfortunately, it's often reduced in mainstream media to statistics or divisive rhetoric.

4:50And we're really just trying to get to the human stories behind these journeys. And so that's that's really the goal of the game. But, you know, especially now, we're trying to make it even broader and catalyze a social movement. Right. It's we need to change. the narrative around this topic. One of the things that you're really nailing is this level of humanizing this journey, humanizing the folks who are making this journey. Can you talk a little bit about what the kind of, again, impetus for this was and what the kind of foundation of when you were like, we have to tell this story. This is a really important thing that we must get to get across to folks, especially in the game space.

5:30Yeah. So I have a personal connection to this being a first-generation immigrant. My father's from Guatemala, my mother's from the Philippines, but much of my family from Guatemala actually emigrated this way across the border. And I've always believed in the power of games for good and to drive social change. And was always curious about capturing the refugee experience. And there's a game called Bury Me My Love, which I had played, right, which follows the journey of a Syrian refugee. And then I also did this multi-sensory uh vr experience called carne arena which was done by the mexican filmmaker alejandro nartu um so this debuted at the can film festival in 2017 but then it did like festival museum circuit uh and it basically immersed um the audience members in this uh experience of what it's like to be in the desert um you know simulating border patrol helicopters and they actually would make you go barefoot on a sandy surface so that you could feel what it's like to be in the desert.

6:36And that was a really visceral, powerful experience. And I thought, well, how can you take this and reach a broader audience with it, right, and make it more accessible? And I think, you know, video games are an excellent medium to be able to do that. And I connected with a bunch of game developers in Latin America, in Colombia, a few first-generation immigrants here in the U.S. as well. And we were ideating around how to further develop this game. And it was cool because everybody had a little bit of a personal connection to it and wanted to explore this. And throughout the development process, we've seen some of our team members even get closer to their families because some of these stories start unfolding.

7:18And that's part of what we're trying to do with the game itself when it releases. I don't know if you played the game Venba, for example, but that's also, you know, about, you know, an immigrant family. And I heard stories of people playing with their parents or their grandparents. And that's a vision that I hope we can also, you know, strive towards with Take Us North. And I one of the reasons why I'm excited for this is not only because of the layers that you just talked about, which are, you know, cultural, generational. There are so many layers that are that are in that mix of, you know, why this story is important and why, you know, you as a person who has that has that history is telling the story as opposed to other folks who are constantly kind of getting the information wrong.

8:05right like i think we have these first person stories and these kind of um firsthand uh stories that are that are coming through while also you know removing a lot of the disinformation that winds up happening through a game like this through a project like this talk to me about how important it is to make sure you're getting it right not only for the folks who already have that experience to make sure that that feels authentic but to also learn up the people who are often on the wrong side of the actual issue. Talk to me a little bit about that. Yeah, so this project is deeply rooted in research.

8:40Because it's such a sensitive and heavy-hitting topic, we really want to treat it delicately and with care. And so the most important thing for us is making sure that we are telling these stories authentically and that we are connecting with the experts, right? Because even though I have a cultural connection, I haven't made that journey myself, for example. I was born in the States and I want to understand, especially because it evolved over time too. I think migration, again, depending on specific policies, like what's happening here and now, it's always different and you want to make sure that you're staying close to the reality of the experience.

9:23And so we are collaborating very closely with migrant shelters in Mexico. So we are, I've been going down to the borderlands and walking the trail. So for context, the game is primarily set in the Sonoran Desert, which is between Mexico and Arizona, although we show other aspects of the migrant trail as well. But I've been walking through those places and going with humanitarian groups to do resource drops, for example, because this is one of the deadliest migrant trails in the world. Migrants have to face extreme heat, extreme cold, a lot of the perilous wildlife, encounters with border patrol.

10:04And that is, you know, a lot of that is captured in the game. And we're also collaborating with academics and anthropologists who specialize in migration. So it's a very multifaceted web of consultants and folks who care about this topic and are supportive of our vision. Because I think upon initially hearing that you want to tackle a subject like this in a video game, if people don't really understand how video games can drive social change or positive change, they might be averse to it and think, how could you gamify this that is such a delicate experience for migrants? But contrarily, right, like I think that it's a very powerful tool to heal, just like when you watch a documentary or narrative film about something that is emotional.

10:54I think video games are the most immersive art form and one of the best ways to really foster empathy because you're literally stepping inside the shoes of people who go through this journey. yeah i mean the the reason i love vr so much is because of that ability to literally be in the eyes of you know another human being or another another human's experience to be able to be in that space in a game like this giving more information for uh not only i think a lot of folks when they come into a project like this especially you know folks like myself we have a lot of of stereotypes that we also bring to the table that are wrong right we're also trying to figure out the best ways to be allies when it comes to the conversation around immigration and migration, especially with the country, you know, turning everything on its on its head right now.

11:46I love the fact that you had taken the time to go walk the trails to to kind of experience some of that firsthand. What were some of your takeaways from from those from those moments? And you said you hadn't done that in real life in terms of the actual journey, but being able to have those moments where you were being a part of that walk and seeing what that was like, did that also change some views that you also had for yourself about what that process looks like? Yeah. I mean, when I did most recently go walk along one of the migrant trails, it was actually surprising because I wasn't sure if I would see remnants of migrants having recently passed.

12:32But as an example, we went with a humanitarian group, or actually just one woman who often does resource drops. And she had been walking along that trail just a couple of weeks prior. And she said that she didn't really see much. But then when we went just a couple of weeks after, there was a lot of there was a lot of evidence that migrants had just recently passed through. And there was also evidence, unfortunately, when this is something that we show in the game, too, that sometimes there are nefarious people like there's a group called Vigilantes that will confiscate resources that humanitarian groups lay out for for migrants.

13:16And we saw evidence of that. But then there's this there's this humanity as well. For example, if humanitarian groups leave food and water in a specific location, maybe migrants won't take all of it because they know that there are other people coming behind them that might need it later. And so I thought there was something really beautiful about that because it shows the sharing and the understanding and that it's this shared experience. um but yeah i also just got a sense of again like how there's this interesting juxtaposition of the beauty of the natural landscape um but then the the harrowing nature of the journey and that's something that we try to capture um in the in the game as well i think that when i was reading through some of the description on the kickstarter uh and congratulations on on so far how well it's doing we want to make sure we get you even more money in that and that in the campaign um that there were moments in that as well that talked about the the kind of real lived experiences and pulling in you know folks who would who have been going who have gone through that process and and and having audio or or potentially video of some of those um accounts be in the game too what was that process like to have people kind of come together and say hey we want to share our story with you, especially during a time where it is extremely fraught with a lot of anxiety and a lot of danger of raising your hand and saying, maybe I am not documented, or maybe I am a person who most recently went through that process.

15:02So I have family members who are in that process. What was it like talking to those folks? And how were some of those discussions during the recordings of that stuff yeah it's again a very delicate process because you don't want people to feel re-traumatized right as they're sharing their experiences but um on the other hand it actually does serve as a very cathartic process to be able to talk about it and to know that we are amplifying these stories because it is such an urgent topic and there is such great misunderstanding misinformation, disinformation as well, right, around the topic. And so I think people feel excited about the possibility to amplify their stories and to essentially give them visibility, right, bring them to light, because there's just, again, it's about humanizing it ultimately.

15:58And I guess take it for granted sometimes because I was so close to it and I had a personal connection to it. But as I was going around, you know, we've not just done interviews with the migrants, but we've also done like Vox pop style interviews on the street to get a sense of what do people think about these topics? Like, what do you know? You know, I remember being in New York City last year and just kind of interviewing random people on the street, right? Like, what do you think about this concept of a video game that tackles this topic? And it was surprising to hear some people's perceptions.

16:32Right. And I think that this is exactly why we're doing the work. And I'm, I'm excited about the possibility to incorporate more raw footage because one of the biggest takeaways has been that no, no one can tell these stories better than the people that have actually gone through it themselves. Right. And so being able to honor that, like, of course, I'm here as a facilitator, as a translator, as a liaison. But these are really like the stories of the migrants themselves. And that's, yeah, we're handling that very delicately. I think I'm happy to hear you talk about the kind of taking it for granted layer.

17:12I think as a New Yorker and born and bred and now living somewhere else that is very, very white. I didn't know you were a New Yorker too. Yeah, I'm from the Bronx. I'm from the Bronx. I'm from the Bronx. But I think it, you know, it makes me even recall the, the interactions with folks that I, that I see every day or that I saw every day. And you forget because it is such a, you know, I hate the, the cliche term term of it's a melting pot, but it is right. It's like, you can look in any direction and hear various, everything, cultural languages all the pieces that that make what i believe new york to be great and amazing those those parts of it but you go into that especially if you're born in britain born and raised there like you don't think about the journeys that folks have made even though you can look at the caribbean and say oh well you know jamaicans aren't here just because they like jamaica wasn't here because jamaica like rican's aren't here dominicans aren't here because like it's an actual journey as well for those folks too even if the the migration immigration layers are a little bit um less stringent in terms of the way the public uh sentiment has been towards those groups it feels like when you talk about and when we have that discussion of taking it for granted there is a weird disconnect between what we have been sold as the american dream and what folks who are looking to be a part of what the American experience is, have an understanding of what it may be prior to them coming over and then landing, and then having the nuts and bolts of like, what does it mean to be American once you get here, right?

19:02And I use the air quotes because that whole delineation has changed a lot in the past decade. What are you hearing from those folks when you're having those discussions about that balance between the idea of why we're going and then getting here and living a life? What's the balance in the conversations that you're having for folks in that discussion? Oh, yeah, it's such a complex one. And, you know, I'm just nodding my head because it's, you know, I've heard people say the American dream doesn't exist. Right. Like I actually went to I'm based in Los Angeles and I last year was in MacArthur Park interviewing some local immigrant entrepreneurs and just getting a sense of their journeys.

19:49and, you know, one of the through lines, I think, was the sacrifices, just continued sacrifices that you have to make. And how, you know, one woman described, she was from El Salvador and she said, you know, immigrants, we are luchadores, we are fighters because we're constantly just having to, you know, it's what a lot of, I think, people of color in the States say about having to work twice as hard, right, or twice as hard um as uh counterparts and i think that that's for my observations that holds true right and um and i think like especially now the the american dream does it exist people have said the american nightmare like of course there are still so many opportunities here and this is where it gets complex like i don't know if you've seen recently um some uh people are not just self-deporting, but actually a lot of people are going back to Mexico and they're calling it like the Mexican dream now, right?

20:50Like, is Mexico a place that is safe for people? But the reality is, again, like there are so many different types of migrants and there are so many different motivations behind migration. But something that we're trying to capture at the heart of Take Us North is the journeys of asylum seekers, ultimately, because there's so many people that don't have another choice, right? They must flee their countries and out of desperation, extreme poverty, fleeing from violence, fleeing from persecution. You know, the the carteles and these complex, like organized crime networks that are driving people from their homes.

21:29You know, it's they either stay in their native countries and risk dying or they have to, you know, that's people say they would rather risk dying in the desert on this incredibly dangerous journey than stay in their hometowns. And I think that's something that we try to capture. But again, like it's such a, yeah, it's a very interesting time to reflect on this now and, you know, what are the potential avenues and how do we improve the conditions, right, for the U.S. to be a place for asylum seekers if that is the case right that's it's a whole you know we can talk about this for hours but um no but i but i appreciate that perspective a lot because i think you know i think we are all in a in a an era of trying to unlearn right we're trying to unlearn the things that we have been given and taught and and and really dig into the experiences of the people who are living in and and uplifting and amplifying those conversations.

22:33I think, you know, from a political perspective and from an American cultural perspective, we have been lied to often about what, you know, America is supposed to stand for as opposed to what it does. You know, the reasons why some of the destabilization that you see in Mexico and in all the places around the world, we've had a hand in in multiple layers as Americans, as an American culture. We refuse to talk about those layers, but also still have people who want to come here and say, we want to try to rebuild a life here because where we were was even more dangerous than the potential of where we can potentially go.

23:11I love the fact you're also working not only with anthropologists and folks in those spaces, sociologists and things there, but you're also working with groups who are doing the work on the ground too, which I think is brilliant and fantastic. Talk a little bit about what that has been like and what that means for the project too. Yeah, it's been very inspiring. And I'm I'm very grateful that I've had the opportunity to meet some of these heroes, right, that are actually doing the work on the ground to support migrants in the ways that they can. And it's been really fascinating to see there's even a little bit of, you know, there have been some documentaries that describe it as like warfare between humanitarians and Border Patrol sometimes, right?

23:53And I'll give one example of an individual who I think is doing some brilliant work. He's an artist who was an immigrant himself. His name is Alvaro Enciso. And he actually what he does is he will create these little shrines in the desert in the places where they know that migrants have died or their remains have been found. And so it's, you know, that's something that we try to incorporate in the game as well to give these moments of reflection and meditation on the fact that thousands of people, you know, are making this journey and not all of them make it. And they're, you know, but they're making these incredible sacrifices because they want to have a better life and give a better life to, you know, posterity to their families.

24:43And I think that that's something that as a first generation immigrant, again, like with the taking for granted piece, right? Like I didn't fully understand necessarily. And I think first generation immigrants, especially from, you know, a lot of my friends that I've chatted with, sometimes there's a lot of there's some resentment or because of the values that maybe immigrant parents uphold. And and there are reasons for that. Right. And you might not really be able to empathize with it until you understand fully what this means. And it doesn't even mean that they had to have gone through the desert and go through this journey.

25:18It's just in general. And that's to your point earlier about immigrants outside of just Latin America. In general, I think many of us, the U.S. is a nation of immigrants ultimately. And so being able to trace that back and connect with your roots in that way is something that we hope we can do. but certainly it's been enlightening to be able to collaborate with folks that are on the ground. I want to talk a little bit about the kind of like nuts and bolts of the mechanics of the game. I know there's a lot of work that's still being done to kind of flesh all those pieces out and get it into a space that you want, but like talk to me a little bit about what the player will experience when you first get into the game and have your first experience with Take Us North.

26:02Yeah. So as the player, you play the role of a migrant guide or a coyote, which unfortunately, like, you know, they're often not unfortunately, it's true. They're often associated with the drug trade. It's a very complex thing. But there are good guides, right? There are people who unfortunately just get stuck in these circumstances. And we kind of want to show the again, the complexity of this and what that means. But your objective is to safely shepherd a group of migrants through across the board. border. And then throughout the journey, you get to shift perspectives to play other characters because we have these playable flashback or memory levels.

26:43And that's how we can kind of connect people to the psyche of migrants, but also to other parts of the trail beyond the desert. And it's interesting because the journey actually lends itself naturally to conventional game mechanics. For example, like resource management, you first start out at this border town of Nogales where you have to gear up effectively. You have to decide what you need to pack for the journey. Bringing more water is going to weigh more, but you need it. So it's going to slow you down. So there are these different choices that you have to make. And some of those survival mechanics like stealth when you're encountering border patrol or if you're encountering perilous wildlife like wild coyotes or how do you be savvy about that?

27:28But ultimately, even though these systems are part of the experience, we want the mechanics to serve the narrative ultimately and not abstract people from the emotional impact of the experience. Even though this could be a very complex management game, that's not the heart of what we're trying to do. And ultimately, we want people to feel. And you can do that with mechanics. I think there's a great way to, you know, this is again, to your point of like us iterating and refining that and trying to figure out what's the sweet spot to balance those two. And again, like finding these moments of tension, which is so real, because you're going through this incredibly harrowing journey, but also relief, and we don't want to make it trauma porn, right?

28:17Like this is the, there is, there is humor. There is a spectrum of emotion that you feel there's connection, there's love, right? There are all of these things that are just the human nature and that you get. And resilience is definitely something that we want players to feel because we see that that's something that, you know, the migrants certainly experience. And it's, yeah, I think just being able to translate all of this is it's a, gargantuan challenge right but um but uh but so far with the feedback that we've gotten um i think we're heading in the right direction yeah i mean it's always the hardest part of like when you're talking about something heavy of like how do you how do you land the plane in a way that feels good for everybody and i think you know when you're doing that work you're you're always going to potentially miss a thing that you wanted to get in but if the overall sentiment of of what the good is here is that that you're trying to again continue to be authentic and bring in those those those stories from those folks and have that emotional layer there then i think it really does come through in some great ways i think one of the things that comes through in the trailer too in the teaser was the music and the the cultural leanings in there and the art that's coming through there from the art style as well it's like all of those pieces how did you kind of land on on the visual look of the project so far?

29:40Because I feel like it feels very different than anything I've ever seen. Yeah, honestly, it's really the convergence of the diversity of the team, which I really appreciate because I think when we were first developing the art style and the look development, it's evolved so much like in most things in game dev, right? But we have this hybrid of 2D and 3D art, primarily because the 3D models, for example, they're faceless. And there was something poetic about that that we wanted to keep because, you know, migrants are living in the shadows and they're often portrayed as not having an identity.

30:19But then we do want to show the cultural aspect of things. And so being able to do that with 3D art. So something that's not shown in the trailers, we actually have character portraits. So that shows more detail. And I think that's important. so you can connect and we also have voice acting, which is very important as well, I think, to be able to drive home the narrative elements. But I wanted things to be abstract. And again, like this, the 3D art focusing on the beauty of the natural landscapes. But then the 2D with more detail, being able to show the characters and the cultural aspects of that.

30:59So, again, like it's still it's still in development, but it's just been really cool to see how contributions from our artists. We have artists in in Spain and Latin America. Right. So in Europe. So it's a really global team and they're all coming together because it's it's a it's a labor of love, ultimately. So, yeah. Yeah. I love that. Because, again, it's it showcases just like we are not that different. You know, like I think I think the foundational part that I think comes through with projects like this is it always reminds us of just how we as human beings are looking for all pretty much the same things out of this life.

31:40Like we want safety. We want love. We want, you know, community. We want those things to be in the mix. And everyone is trying to find them in different ways and trying to find them in ways that they can and they have access to. Before we let you go, because we're running out of time, you know, this is the big million-dollar question. When folks are engaging with this and consuming this and really sitting with it, what is one of the biggest takeaways you want them to have after they've come through and finished Take Us North? Oh, yeah. Yeah, certainly, you know, this notion of empathy, I hope, is one that any of our players can take away or even just a little bit more, you know, understanding and enlightenment around this topic and this subject matter.