WowCube Is the Ultimate Flex, and Battlesuit Aces Is a Story-Rich Deckbuilder With Heart

0:14Yo,

0:20what up everybody in Bracago, this is the Spawn of Me Podcast with Khalif Adams. I am your host, Kalief Adams. I hope you're doing well. Hope you're having a fantastic end of your 2025. And we have a great show for you today with two interviews coming to you from the teams from the WoW Cube and the folks from Battle Aces talking about their game. And hey, we have some dope stuff coming in 2026. Very excited for some coverage that's coming, some events that I'm going to be going to that'll be able to bring you all some goodies there. So I'm hoping that you're ending out your year with a bang and hoping that you're having a amazing time with family and friends for the holiday.

1:03Yeah, go check out a lot of the other pieces of content that are out on the feeds. Of course, we had our really dope, just like ridiculously good, legendary interview with Big Daddy Kane and the folks from HTC Viveverse to talk about his experiences, his new content that's going into the metaverse in all of those places. And we have some other good stuff. We have a really cool kind of end of year holiday guide with a couple of things I think you should be checking out both from the hardware perspective, from some tabletop stuff, some games as well. So we'll be having that out as well. So make sure you're checking that out for sure.

1:39And word, let's just get into the interviews because we have some really dope stuff for all of you for this episode of Spawn on Me. So without further ado, let's go to the interviews. What's good, everybody in Burkaga? We have a new episode, a new dope episode, because I am joined with the CMO from Cubios Incorporated, Napoleon Smith. And we're going to be talking today about something I'm very excited for, a device that I got a quick demo for a couple, a month ago, basically, and have been clamoring for more of this, the WoW Cube. I am excited to have you on the show. Napoleon, thank you so much for being on with us here on Spawn of Me.

2:19How are you doing today? I'm doing great. I'm excited. It's Christmas time and our cubes are coming into the States and they're actually starting to be delivered to people now. So they're trying to get under the Christmas trees. Yeah, so it's been a long journey. So it's pretty awesome to see them getting under those Christmas trees. That is sweet. I have been so excited for what this device is because I think it's a game changer in a lot of different ways. But I first wanna showcase a quick video that the team shared because I think it does give a good illustration of what we're gonna be talking about today.

2:58So let me go and run the footage right about now.

3:22so that's a lot of cool stuff to showcase in one in one short video i i want to hear give me the kind of quick elevator pitch of what the wow cube is cube is and i don't want to overstate the cool factor of the fact that this is also connected to one of the most widely known IPs in the world in Rubik's. But give me a quick understanding of what the WoW Cube is. So basically, the best thing I can summarize it is if you got Marty McFly, he got in his time machine, went back to the mid 80s because he remembered having Rubik's Cube as a kid, grabbing one of those, going back, going to the future, telling, hey, guys, can you make me a cool Rubik's Cube so I can take it back to 2025?

4:17That's what you get. You get one of these. So you have 24. It's crazy technology because what you have here is 24 screens. You have eight processors, eight speakers, gyroscope. So this thing can do quite a bit. To be honest with you, I don't even know. it's been quite over-engineered. So if you're to get a Rubik's Cube and over-engineer it, this is what it's going to look like. I'm so hyped for this because I think one of the things that I was really enamored with was not only as a fan of the original Rubik's Cube and being a person who had one through multiple stages of my life, because it was one of those things of just like, one, it's a cool thing to remind you of the nostalgia of your own childhood to there's a layer of just like cognitive am i am do i still have it kind of this yeah that goes along with with a device like this but seeing the the way you've tweaked this and made this something so new with a lot of the tech that you just talked about that i really want to dig into the minutiae of some of those pieces too but what was it like to kind of say you know they're the idea of nothing new under the sun and then changing that with a device that is very new and very different than what you've known to come and love let me know what you're what you kind of the team was thinking about when they decided to kind of go in this route well the interesting thing was is that the idea came from a 14 year old kid um him and his father moved from russia here to the states to basically kind of make something like this happen and so you know i um met them at a they came to a maker's fair in san francisco and they had this wonky prototype put together but they had a vision uh they had a vision the kid had a vision to make a modern day rubik's cube with technology so some probably our age would have never thought of but he did because he lives in the digital world so he wanted to see how can we make this match his digital world whereas you know everything we try to make match our physical world and that's how you came up with this rubik's cube and then you know once he was created something so incredible i think the one mission the one mission at that point when i met them was this has to be the next rubik's cube like it can't be anything else so you know we set out on that journey um probably about three to four years four years ago to make this happen and now we're getting it under christmas trees this year which is really exciting man i know the r &d on this thing must have been bananas to try to get this thing to to do all the things that it does because besides the kind of uh normal configuration that you see okay again it spins on all the axes it's supposed to you talked about the the touch functions you talk about the sound functions but like each one of those squares is an individual computer in its in its own way show me show us a little bit of kind of the walkthrough that you would give someone when you're showcasing this for the first time to folks and say you know yeah so i mean yeah it has eight so it has 24 screens and then it has um eight processors one in each it has eight speakers eight gyroscopes so the thing is you know it's it's pretty overbuilt and then what we set out to do is that, you know, now that we have the digital, let's see what kind of games we could put.

7:48So, you know, there's, there's hundreds of, there's over 500 games and apps and things that you can download to this. And we're having a lot more as we just came out. So we're, we're really focusing on getting a lot of cool games onto this device. But I got to say, it's the ultimate peacock. You go out with this device, you put it down anywhere. It's like this. And I sometimes count, you know, one, two minutes, boom, everybody's on you. So I've never seen any other device do that where you just put it down the table and everybody's like uh what the heck is that that is that even supposed to exist so it's definitely it's definitely a fun fun device to have what's the kind of because i know a lot of folks when you see a device like this you think of the traditional ways to kind of interact with it what what are some of those and i don't mean to to use the pun but what are some of those wow moments that you wind up seeing initially when someone gets past that first layer of, oh, this is not just the cube that lights up.

8:51This actually does a lot of different functions. What's the first thing that people kind of interact with when they get the device? Well, they first interact with the typical Rubik's game, which is matching colors. But what's cool about this, you can match characters. So, like, for example, I'm into Marvel, and you can match a character, you know, Thor. That's not Thor. That's Thanos. Yeah, you can match Thanos, and then he comes to life. So there's a lot of cool different things you can do with that. We have some manga-type games that are black and white to your own adventure. And when you get it to where you want it to go, it goes to color, and that's the direction you go.

9:34We have little aquariums on it. And what's cool about it is my favorite feature that in the app you have the WoW Studio. And the WoW Studio is cool because now you can put your own images. It takes you like a split second to just put your images right onto the WoW Studio on the app within a minute. And it goes right to your device. And now you're playing a Rubik's-type game with your own characters, your own pictures, your family. Me, I have my favorite cars on there and stuff like that. you know stuff like that um i put on there so uh it also has devices where i can do my stock quotes on there my uh my text messages what's the weather so it can have that all on there too because you have 24 screens so it's not just a gaming device a lot of times i use it to wake up in the morning it's my alarm clock and it has my little aquarium on it and everything so it's it's really pretty uh multiverse type stuff here so when you i love the fact that you're already working with some other established ips like marvel and other folks in that space to really bridge out the the software kind of components for what this is going to wind up being yeah well don't tell marvel we haven't gotten them yet we're trying to get the marvel one but so give us no i'm kidding so yeah we're working on some cool what's great about working with uh rubik's cube and Spin Master is, is they're so rich in different licensing.

11:00And they've been, I mean, I got to say, they've been such a great partnership to make this happen and allow us, like, think about it. What company would allow other people to license out, you know, a new product for them? And it was nice they trusted us to allow such an iconic brand to be put on a device. And then that allows us to get all sorts of other cool characters in IP. I mean, we live in an IP-rich world. So you're going to definitely see a lot of your favorite characters in IP coming up on the Rubik's File Cube. So you talked a little bit about kind of your favorite ways to use it. When folks are brainstorming new ideas within the company to kind of poke at, again, don't tell me any secrets because I don't want to know.

11:45um but when you all are brainstorming like use cases for a device like this what are some of the wild things that kind of didn't make it and kind of hit the cutting room floor but gave you some inspiration for new avenues to kind of do cool stuff what was some of those kind of stories i mean i wanted to put my netflix on it you know i wanted to there's all sorts of crazy stuff i actually wanted to put um sea monkeys on it and let them grow like crypto monkeys and let people, you know, I go trade with other people and we bump each other's cubes and we can trade sea monkeys together. I know I'm dating myself, but things like that.

12:24And then we actually had a very famous rapper we just had a call with today. And he has all sorts of cool music ideas. He bought one. He goes, dude, I love this thing. And he was like, he came to us. He was like, can we do this? Can we do that? Can we do this? And, you know, he's definitely top five rappers in the world. And we're just blown away with his ideas. So what's cool about this device is we have a really pretty cool open system where we take in a lot of cool ideas. So a lot of the ideas don't come from us. They come from people that become fans of the cube. And we even have it to where a lot of entry-level gamers can create their own games as well.

13:03So we're really taking the lead from a lot of our fans that love the device. I appreciate that and also I appreciate you not telling everybody about the meeting that we had about the music that I make and all the stuff don't don't tell everybody about me being a top five rapper I try to keep that exactly I'm trying to give your anonymity you know I try I try to keep that under wraps I don't want people to know what I do outside of this but I but I love the fact you talked about getting ideas from other folks kind of through play right like they're They're giving you good ideas, not only kind of giving or folks having a device and kind of thinking up other ways that they can use it, but having that kind of library across the Rubik's Cube family and Spin Master family to be able to kind of make some of those connections as well.

13:49I also love that you talked a little bit about kind of interactivity with other Cube devices in that family. is there something where you know you're at a level where the cubes kind of see each other and you can interact with each other so if i have a cube you have a cube and i'm like our cubes are near each other we can kind of do cool stuff like what's the kind of use case for those kinds of things too yeah we already have some that are going to be doing that now out of the box you know like where you can do times on your cube and try to beat each other's time so we're already doing that now but we are definitely doing a lot of interactive stuff with the cube and a lot of where your your gaming consoles where maybe it holds your you know your top stuff from your other games and it you know melds with that game so that way you can put some cool stuff on this and take it with you yeah so uh we definitely are though looking at interactive uh it has a gyroscope so you know there's all sorts of ways that you can use this even as a controller as a gaming controller so um that's definitely the direction that we're going it's we don't want it to be seen as a rubik's gaming cube that just matches colors it does so much more than that yeah like i'm excited like when i had the first demo there were so many ideas that i had in my mind because i was like one i'm dying for a simon-esque game like this because that would be super fun um i there's one that i want to do but like oh you always want to make sure you're not dropping the tech i'm like it feels like there's a good hot potato game that you can have in there a good bop it game that you can have in there but i also think of like how um streamers have adorned their studios with so many kind of devices like this and i think of this as like oh wow this would be really cool as something that would interact as a steam deck or something in that respect where i could like oh i want to start my recording on my on my stream let me do that or or if I want to change scenes, like, I can do that, or have some hook, some API hook, where the audience can do something, the streaming chat can do something, and it will change something on the queue, or, you know, if I get a subscription, or some bits, or something like that, it'll pop up on there as a visual device.

16:05There's, like, so many cool things about this that I think are still tapped or untapped that'll be kind of in that space. how has development gone when you get to those conversations is it something where immediately you're like oh this is like an immediate brainstorm session for folks to kind of jump in a room and talk about how do we do this while also doing the other part of getting the word out about the device those are simultaneously happening how are you thinking about that we had to separate the teams to be honest with you or we would have never got this out. So, you know, one of our main founders, Max, he's, we have him out in Shenzhen, just making sure that this product comes out by the time for Christmas, because we kept coming up with different ideas, and this idea and that idea, and we started realizing that, you know, we need to just stop and focus on getting it out.

16:58But what's definitely cool is we do usually act on a lot of these, a lot of the cooler ideas, just because that's what the cube's about and i don't i don't think we can have enough content we want more so we the whole thing is about content generation of this thing so uh we've been going out to a lot of gaming conventions and have a lot of the gaming developers love us and so the whole key is we've been working instead of internally creating our teams we've been working a lot of gaming publishers to be seen as a platform to them that they can they can create games for this or games they already have that they can um you know bring onto this platform i mean one of the things that i and i know you just had a really good showing at new york comic-con a couple months ago as well to kind of showcase uh the kind of debut of the device and things like that what was the reception at the show did folks just like it was yeah it was pretty wild i mean we we you know we we had a massive cube out there that was you know it's just the size of a one-story building and um we just had crowds around us and everybody was just kind of all like what what the heck is this so uh you know the attention that we got at comic-con new york was just truly just mind-blowing i lost my voice by day two and we had a lot of cool people in the comic-con world that you know our celebrities the comic-con world come up to us and just loved it um and then we're gonna be at CES this year as well.

18:28So we are definitely getting out there. Because to us, you got to play with this thing, you know, the second you get it in your hand, you play with it. It's, it's, it changes, it changes the world right there. Yeah, I think when I was in the demo, and the gentleman who was kind of showing it off was like detaching the pieces from the cube to kind of showcase the individual screens and the connectivity there and why that mattered. And again, like the technical prowess of making the device do that and it still be operable and also be a part of the use cases of how you use it. I thought it was super, super cool.

19:11Are there other kinds of thoughts about, you know, once you've kind of launched a thing, your roadmap of how you're thinking about what's the next thing you're kind of doing in that space and kind of show yeah we have two different teams we have one team that's just focusing on hardware so you should see i mean yeah the next one after this is just it's mind-blowing like it's it's next level and then we have whole teams working on the content as well that will be we'll work on this device and they'll work on the devices coming after it but we're looking at having multiple skews so we're not looking at just this this skew and this even form factor we are looking at different we're looking at different form factors and different skews um and price points there you'll see some things that are even a little bit more than this and some that are less you know depending on the audience but we're we realize that there's a real need in the market for something physical that you can move and touch physically and then also take advantage that we live in a digital world now.

20:14So we see ourselves as that cool bridge that we like to play in both. So it's kind of cool. You have a pretty cool programming team that's always focusing on incredible content. But then we have really mechanical engineering techie geeks, and they're inventing things all the time that we have to go out and get patents for to make sure. Just the technology for this to talk to this talk to this sorry about that no you're good uh sorry about that no worries just for this to talk to this after this um hey i got a good guard dog over here you know hey come here trust me say hi my my my my little my little girl she she runs up and tries to lick my head every time i want to call uh so i i totally get it but no so the technology on this is cool like to figure out how this tube to talk to this device to this all all to talk to each other we have these little balls in there yeah and i call that a flex capacitor because it has to change it has to get from this to this has to communicate you know what this is doing so it has to communicate data but also it has to transfer power so it's it's just something that's just evolutionary you'll probably see in many physical devices in the future from legos to whatever because that was the biggest thing we had to first solve is how this can touch to this to this instantly you know how those all talk to each other instantly and that's not easy technology to create no and and for the the kind of movement of the pieces of the cube to feel smooth and to feel sturdy and to feel like you know like all of those parts are you know just really really smartly done in in demo that i saw and it kind of brings up you know you talked a little bit about like this being the first iteration and potentially um new form factors and and new partnerships and things like that i immediately was like oh can we get a wow cube hellraiser edition for the adults for for the for the adult adults but one of the things i thought was really interesting and cool too was the fact that you know i think of these devices also as um vectors for education which i thought was really well thought of and there's a i think there was a classification that winds up coming on the box about like how this device is classified in terms of its its scope in terms of education can you talk a little bit about towards that yeah stem certified you know we're really going into the stem space the original rubik's cube was created uh for that and so us being digital and all that that our big component of the company is about kids education and stem so we're we're um doing a lot of partnerships and research and stem gaming uh to make sure that we are educational device as well i love that we're not just all fun and games away here but uh i've definitely like there's games on here to learn your presidents learn places in the world to go and then it twisting that tells you all about the city and then we have mathematic games on there so there's a lot of cool games that have a lot to do with education are there i know you talked a little bit about the the app and the software of kind of getting games onto the device and getting and getting apps onto the device do you feel like this is also going to be a device that is going to be really cool for tinkerers like how open is the the ecosystem for folks who are looking to put stuff on it and to kind of add their own flavor to what's what's the conversation look like for you all there yeah we have an open uh api sg a platform for any gamer guy to create games for it you know physically no but digitally apps software wise yes you know that's what we're striving for so we definitely want those gaming tinkers to come up with new ideas i've been at some gaming ones and guys that already have these devices have come to us and showing us their games that they've created and it's just next level that you know we didn't didn't even think of at all so So we definitely want that type of mindset playing with our cubes.

24:24Yeah. So Christmas is coming up. The holidays are coming up. This is definitely going to be a big stocking stuffer for a lot of folks. I know I want to showcase one of these bad boys to a lot of my younger nieces and nephews because they saw me looking at the video and they came over and they were like, ooh, what's that? And I was like, you'll definitely be the coolest uncle. Yeah. I was like, go away. I don't know yet. I don't know yet. I'll let you know when you get a chance to get one and play around with it. But when you're thinking about, of course, the age groups that are going to be kind of in this space, and it feels like that is a much broader group in what we usually thought of for a device like this.

25:04What's the kind of sweet spot you think for a device like this? I think, you know. Yeah, I mean, it depends on the games. We even have parental controls. So you can give it to a kid. Oh, sweet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we have plenty of games for younger kids. but what I've been seeing the best I can compare it to is with the original Rubik's Cube when I got one for Christmas I noticed that my uncle and my grandmother and my mom and dad are playing it more than I was they loved it just as much so it's kind of one of those type of products where you're going to get the nostalgia of us older guys but the kids glommed onto it right away and it's nice for them getting on something like this and looking on a phone screen or a tablet the whole time.

25:46They're actually, you know, interacting and playing with something. So it's pretty broad. I'd say over the age of six for sure. Yeah. And under maybe under the age of 110. That's probably right about our sweet spot. Those 10 decades right there, I think is quite our sweet spot. I need you to be my CEO, CML2, because that was a great answer. I love that answer for sure. we're almost out of time but I want to give you the floor and tell the people at home all the folks who are watching this in small number land where they can get more information where they can kind of get pre-orders and orders in and get more information about WowQ.

26:29Yeah I mean you know what's cool about this time around is that we're doing direct to consumer for this round and because we wanted to get up to the very last minutes to update the software so the software just got updated the this is you know a whole new cube it's our 2.0 if you will it's being shipped out so if you order it now it will be there in time to be under the christmas tree sweet and you're going to have a device that not this is like the tesla roadster here so you guys are the first type of guys that are getting this kind of device and so it comes along with some cool bragging rights and like i said And, you know, after Christmas, you go out, you know, to take your kids to the mall or to anywhere you go.

27:12You bring this or just even any adults, any adult, you take it to the bar. All I say is watch out, hinge. This is what I say right here. I'm telling you. I'm telling you. Forget that. Forget that. You put this down and you take me around. And they start playing with it. You put a smile on their face. It's over. You thank me and invite me to your wedding. I really want there to be a world where the dating scene is all kind of infused with wow cubes. And it goes from the like, hey, you know, let me try to hit you with my best line in the club. To now being like, if you can solve this, I might give you my number.

27:56That just adds. This is definitely a nerd dating app right here. I ain't mad at it. I ain't mad at it as long as, hey, just remember, consensual cubing is all we have to make sure is out there. That's all we're saying. Safe cubing. Safe cubing. Don't be bumping everybody else's cubes. Use protection. Make sure you do what you need to do to stay safe out there. Make sure you know where you plug it in, too. Don't plug it in anywhere. Again, safety is paramount here on Spawn On. Yeah. Oh, my God. Napoleon, dude, thank you so much for coming on and rocking. I'm very excited for what WowCube is doing.

28:33I want to stay connected with you all to find some more ways that we can talk about it and do more cool stuff together. Because it was a blast having you on and learning more about the device. Everyone who showcased it and everyone who I've gotten a chance to talk to about it has had this same level of lovely energy. And it's really nice to be able to see a device come out like this that is speaking to so many different audiences, so many different age brackets and so many different um uh brackets of ability too which i think is really important as well because i think i have a lot of folks who would be using this as a fidget spitter i have a lot of folks who would be using this in in gaming devices and all the other kind of applications that you spoke of so very excited for for you and and good luck like break a leg with all the goodies that are coming out with this thing because i think you you have you have made something very very cool and very special in the in the space and that's rare so that's awesome i appreciate you letting us on man i appreciate it was very cool thank you brother for rocking and thank you thank you for for for walking through all the technical issues and all the stuff there you go uh everybody at home uh we'll be sharing links to this in the show notes so make sure you go out if you want to get one of these dope joints underneath your tree before saint nick comes down and steals your cookies we're gonna get more of these out into the world until then much love take a break we're gonna have a quick break and we'll be right back after this.

30:22you get a brand new episode. I hope you'll join me. What's good, everybody, Ember Cago? This is Khalif here, and I am very, very excited because I get to chop it up with somebody who we've hung out before in multiple places. We've seen each other. We've seen each other's actual height in actual life. And I have gotten the pleasure of getting a chance to check out one of his, in Trinket Studios, amazingly dope games in Battlesuit Aces. is i am here with president of trinket studios tom eastman how are you doing sir how's everything going i am great it is an honor to be on spawn on me oh please i mean look i'm i'm just trying to to to make a wonderful space for all of my dope friends to come through and come hang out and talk about all the wonderful things that they are five hundred and six five hundred and sixty three of them that's serious man i i had hair when i started this thing it was it was it was nuts same like oh i i actually i actually remember what it was like to do episode one it was madness yeah we're rolling into year 13 uh in january so it's it's a it's a long time coming but that's exactly how old trinket studios is oh look at that see look at that we started at the same time the good old days the synergy with hair i love it i love it we should take a pic i should put that as the show pictures like the picture of us in the for the first time that we did our thing and then now just put them side by side that'd be great um first of all how are you doing how's everything going i'm excited to have you here i'm doing really well it's the end of the year there's a lot to be very thankful for and a lot to look forward to in 2026 hopefully the industry stops all the layoffs and gets back on track and ai just fizzles out like crypto and art is uh is worth money and wonderful so we're looking forward to all sorts of disasters that in a good way it's one of those weird times especially because you know this is a show that's probably going to be our last show of the year for at least for 2025 and you know i think we're all doing this thing we're all kind of reminiscing about the prospect and what's been happening over the past couple of years and seeing the industry do what it does and and kind of trying to figure out like where we are all you know literally getting in where we fit in to try to figure out good ways to continue to do this wonderful work that we want to do.

32:46What I love about what you all have done is that not only have you continued to build upon a really fantastic series of games, but also with this particular game, I feel like you're hitting a bunch of notes that are really, really cool and very special for not only kind of the pedigree of the studio, but also kind of really putting something special into the world that I think doesn't really exist, which I think is a very rare thing to see in these spaces. I do want to play the launch trailer first and then I want to give you the floor to kind of give people the understanding of exactly what ACES is.

33:23So let's run a quick show of the trailer. All right. Three, two, one. In a boundless universe, we're looking for the source of our wonder and mystery. Like a comet in the sky Every choice we make will shine And live on in our memories Cheers, Captain. You want to hit the sim chamber together? Captain, come for a chance. I've got something for you. You and I will soar into the blue

34:08That's the biggest friend scene I've ever seen!

34:16There's something strange about this guy Get me that suit! I hold all of the cards in this situation I've got the order! I'm always looking for new techniques

34:37Welcome to the crew

34:44Let's get our mark. Let's show up what Zeus is made of. Right! Type move, cabaret!

35:10this is it hold position be ready for anything

35:19battlesuit aces that's a banger of a trailer that's dope like again i was grooving i was i was i was dancing i haven't watched that whole thing in a bit and like we're on the steam page all the time so i just hear the beginning and like watching the whole thing through yeah let's go right i love the fact that like the the the energy of this game comes through in so many different ways like i think when i look at games like this i always now at this point in my career where i'm looking and and having a little bit more of an understanding of like how the game making process works the the the ridiculously herculean effort it takes to make a game at these points and seeing the kind of like love and and and vibe that comes through in that trailer was really exciting when i got a chance to play it but i do want to give you this the floor to kind of tell people who may not necessarily have played it yet what this game is what they can expect and kind of give them the the elevator pitch for for what a battlesuit aces is yeah i appreciate that uh so at its core battlesuit aces is like story rich deck builder or a narrative card battler or something like that and this is this is like a huge challenge where it's definitely a mashup of sort of like it's not a roguelite deck builder it is a deck builder but all your cards are characters that participate in the visual novel which is enormous and fully voiced so they're like like 40 to 75 40 like key characters or important characters in the different factions and you recruit them onto your ship on this like big almost like saturday morning cartoon but it's a mecha anime like space opera where you're recruiting different characters in.

37:03So depending on what characters you recruit, you're going to see different elements of the story and have a very different game mechanical card battle or experience. So our goal was sort of like make a mecha anime where your characters or your cards and you're upgrading them and you're seeing them interact. And we were able to go all out thanks to Outer Sloth. And I had Victoria Tran on not too long ago. And like Victoria was, was amazing along with forest over there and like believing in us and letting us make something like, like probably we shouldn't have made such a big game and it shouldn't have been fully voiced with so many characters, but like it was possible.

37:46And we, we went all in on like just making something a little different, a little unusual. And it was, it was a thrill to work on. it's really cool to see not only you know a game like this kind of come to market and have all of those elements like again you talked about almost like four different games or even four different genres all kind of coming together to build this particular game how hard is it during the process of beginning the you know when you're like i want to show the mvp of this game to the to the rest of the team to be like, this is what we're building. This is the direction we're going in.

38:28How do you mix and match all of those genres and have it really be cohesive as much as it is in this game? Like it never felt like whenever I was playing it that any of those pieces were fighting against each other. They all felt very cohesive. They all felt like they were speaking to each other in a language that they could all understand. And it was a way that the player was able to kind of mix and match the things that they like the most while kind of playing throughout the the entire game talk to me a little bit about the process of what it was like to kind of build towards towards that end in that way oh that's a great question and unfortunately the answer is painful iteration like we made so many prototypes a lot of our original work was sort of like we we were coming off of battle chef brigade which was all hand animated also sort of like saturday morning anime kind of thing um except that was like cooking and uh side scroller brawler hunting and all that animation was like really painful to do and so we're like let's make a card game because then you don't have to do any animation it's just individual illustrations it turned out that was sort of like a curse because you're like oh it's just one illustration but like if it's an animation you're like doing a running cycle or something at least the frames are similar to each other yeah but if every card is a unique illustration and unique character that's like a different problem um but that that's sort of weird like let's make a card game and we're very like typically like we made a fantasy game with battle show brigade let's make a sci-fi game um and eric wong our super creative director art director was like uh just like hey it would be really fun to draw a whole bunch of mecha and sort of uh we have different factions so he could draw like each faction can kind of have a different style and and like draw inspiration or pay homage to different anime that he loves um or different styles i guess there's some that are more like battle tech as well but just like mechs and mecha through time um so we're like let's make a card game and for a long time the card games we were playing were a lot of like uh like slay the spire obviously a big one um and sort of getting to that like roguelite mode where you're like have a clear loop um and we made a whole bunch of prototypes that were sort of all over the place one was like on a hex tactics grid with cards that you would play and then we made one that was more like um megaman battle network with cards that you were playing on different mechs to do different attacks and we kept running into this problem where like they just they were like fun but they didn't feel like a trinket game until we finally realized that the cards shouldn't be like a rocket launcher or like a pistol or like a beam sword they should be characters and that really unlocked us like we finally felt like we got we knew what to make where it was a dynamic system where you're you're adding the characters to your ship they're interacting on the ship and on the board like in the card game and but that process was very painful and eventually we are paper prototyping like your cards our characters against the enemy um and playing that paper prototype was really good and that's when we came up with the energy system like each card brings it sort of generates its own energy and you can manipulate the enemy's energy and all that um but then the the final step was like oh wait we're not making a pvp card game and if you just if you're just like playing against each other and like writing out cards on index cards um you end up trying to design something that's very symmetrical and then that final step was like okay it shouldn't be symmetrical at all like the enemy should be making interesting decisions so the player has an awesome time so like the player can only deploy one card a turn but the enemy shouldn't have the same constraint and figuring out like which which things to like you should work the same way like they have energy and they generate energy the same way so you can manipulate it the same as yours but they can deploy more than one card on their turn is a is an easy example of like if if they were only deploying one card on their turn you could very easily overcome them and that's why a system like this the energy system like wouldn't work in magic the gathering um or like hearthstone or something but it works just fine in a single player game where we're designing some of like how the ai works how the ai cards work and they can have abilities that are interesting if they have them but if you have them it would just ruin the game immediately there is a really good balance between that push and pull uh with with whomever you're fighting at the moment and i love the fact that not only did i come away with a better understanding because like i am i am notoriously bad at anything with a card card games like befuddle me i can do reasonable amounts of math i can i can play a game and and talk to people at the same time and do all the stuff but like when i get into the minutiae of a card game it like throws me off for a lot of ways but what i found in in aces was because of the way that not only you built up the tutorial which i thought was really really smartly done um because that's always hard in terms of onboarding new players right onboarding players is always really really difficult and some teams get it right and some things get a little bit wrong and you all nailed it but it also kind of enveloped a really smart loop of while you're also learning the mechanics of the game by also then pulling in all of those these wonderful cast of characters that you're kind of wind up kind of being along the ride with how important was it for you to all kind of sit down and have that kind of sit around the table moment where you're like, all right, who are these characters going to be?