How to read with a learning mindset

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1:03Helen:That's O-L-L-Y dot com. So are you ready to read like a pro? I would like to read better. So, number one, yeah.

1:15Helen:I think sometimes books meet you where you are or in a moment of need. Yeah. Great books are like a great conversation. This week, we are borrowing brilliance from Ryan Holiday and a video that he did called How to Read Like a Pro. Oh, I bet you loved that. You were like, click. Yes. I love making a mess of a book. Yeah. I like folding over pages, filling it with post-it notes, putting highlights everywhere. Writing in the margins. Yeah, I absolutely love it. I feel like until I've done that, it's just a book. We'll create our own rules. Yeah. If you're listening to this and you're like, I haven't actually read a non-fiction book in ages, is start off with, well, what am I almost trying to get better at?

1:52Helen:Or a problem I've got? Or what do I want to achieve? If you're going to do one thing differently with your reading after today, what's it going to be? Going back to something that's resonated and rereading, I will do that. Mine is to keep going with my new system. Of course it is. Hi, I'm Helen. And I'm Sarah. And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, where each week we borrow some brilliance and turn that curiosity into action that can help you in your career. And this week we are borrowing brilliance from Ryan Holiday and a video that he did called How to Read Like a Pro. Oh, I bet you loved that.

2:26Helen:You were like, click. Yes. Though I was like, oh, the irony of watching something about reading. I was like, wasn't lost on me. Well, so I think you are one of the best readers I know, if not the best reader I know. I'll take that. Because you read a lot, so quantity, and you read broadly. um breadth and then you connect the dots and you share like you're just you're just a really good reader so oh so from his video what i've done is i've picked out points that i think are particularly useful if you're reading a non-fiction book okay with the motivation to learn remember and apply what you are reading because i do think there is a difference between that and what i would call relaxing reading because I do read so much as you said though sometimes I don't want to remember and apply I just want to enjoy it and I just want to get lost in a book if it's fiction but actually sometimes some non-fiction as well not not every book we read we want to do what we're going to do today with yeah I mean watching Ryan's video I was like wow he you think yeah yeah if you think I read a lot I mean watch video and you're just like he has surrounded by books and he's like I read hundreds of books and I still do all of this stuff.

3:43Helen:And he's like a machine. A reading machine. Yeah. But I sort of believed him in his approach. And this is a bit of a special episode. So long-time listeners will know we've always been a big fan of the Post-it Note. We love it. We do. And they've even created some special lobster ones for our book launch, which we gave out. And honestly, we saw some people get more excited by the lobster Post-it Notes than they did the book. I've taken them to events and people have looked at the end. I'm like, I want to ask a question. I've got some post-it notes. And they're just like straight to the post-it notes.

4:16Helen:Well, I did something the other day where you had to ask a question. And if you did, you like won a pack of the lobster post-it notes. And I sort of forgot to say it up front and it was a bit quiet. And I said, oh, as a reminder, don't forget you'll get the post-it notes. And honestly, suddenly all these hands went up. They were like, oh, yeah, we just do it for the post-it notes. And I was like, oh, OK. Not the learning. Not the learning. so we are doing a few episodes in partnership with a post-it note brand where we've had the chance to play with lots of their products what a dream yeah when the box arrived at my house my partner was like why have you got so many post-it notes and I was like why not because I'm living my dream I'm living my dream um and so this is the first one of those and you'll just see as we go through we're going to show you like how we've used them and how we think how we think it's helpful.

5:03Helen:So are you ready to read like a pro? Yes. Okay. Because I'd like to read, I would like to read better. I would like to read more intentionally. I just, you know, like a bit of a reading reset. I love reading and I feel like my aim in listening and learning from you is to have a bit of a reading reset so I can maybe do it a bit differently. So number one, build an anti-library. And I liked this idea so this is read about things you don't know so I have just read Unreasonable Hospitality which has actually been out for a while honestly I'm gonna it's a bit embarrassing I think I've been slightly put off by the cover because it's funny right well because it's all in capitals it's very shouty it's a bit like those books that tell you to yeah often save your money or whatever I don't like a book title with a swear word probably because of how I was brought up um but I was like, oh, it's a bit shouty.

5:55Helen:And I don't know. I think I just got some preconceptions, which just shows you, obviously you should challenge your own assumptions. So were you browsing online with this book or were you in a shop? No. So I saw it recommended by somebody I trust. Okay. You know, like, oh, that's interesting with books. And so somebody, Rob, who we know well, had said he'd read it and he shared a few of his reflections. And I thought, that does sound interesting. Ordered a copy. And it's absolutely brilliant. I know because I've heard quite a lot about this book. You know a book is brilliant when you then start sharing it, which we'll talk about later.

6:32Helen:But I think what it reminded me of was, you know, the whole thing about our podcast is about borrowing brilliance. I don't know anything about hospitality. It's also not naturally something I'm drawn to. I like food, but that's slightly different. and there is so much in it that I found really easy to relate and apply and felt really relevant to us to the work that we do to squiggly careers it just really stood out for me as just because you don't work in a restaurant for example he this the guy who wrote this book he sort of runs restaurants so he's not the chef he runs sort of all like the front of house and like builds restaurants and all the service around restaurants and you think oh that's so different to squiggly careers and what we do turns out it's not and you're going to get lots of i'm going to read out lots to you today but um it was brilliant how about you what's in your anti-library at the moment i was just thinking the concept of an anti-library because so i guess it's what could make it anti is you could be turned off by the title yeah to your point you could be turned off by the cover you're like oh i just don't like that looks a bit boring or i think you could be turned off by the size of a book yes you know like actually i've got a very big book that's brilliant um it's empire of pain which someone had told me was brilliant i think i think i've got the title right if i had seen that in a bookshop there is no way i would have bought it because it is massive principles ray dalio yeah it's a very big book but they're brilliant yeah but you could you could be turned off couldn't you so i guess it's like it's if your first reaction is that's not for me that maybe that means it is for you anti-library okay so i don't think i've done this very well but I was thinking when was the last time I read a book that I wouldn't it would not have been like one that I would have chosen and that's because it was an accidental read and so I was doing a bit of research on Richard Feynman because he is a scientist that's kind of known for his approach to learning and I picked up a book that had a very misleading title it was something about like how to be more curious something like that and I was like oh yeah that is a book that would go in my actual library and then I started realising it sorry and then I started reading it and realised that this is basically a book about science and I failed science at school.

8:47Did you? Yeah. And then I reset it because I didn't want to have a D. Did you pass it next time? I got a C. Well done. Sufficient. My C was sufficient. My D was no, not acceptable. But I did that off my own back, like in my summer. The summer of 16, I went and reset it. The summer of 16, the summer of science reset. A revelation the summer of 16 for my life. For many reasons, we won't go into it. I have heard about that summer quite a few times. We won't go into it on the podcast, but it was a revelation. Science is the least of it. Anyway, reading this book about science and me going, absolutely not.

9:19I cannot. But then I was on a plane and I had nothing else to read. So you're trapped. I was trapped and I don't really like watching the TV on a plane. So I just needed to keep reading it. I actually learned quite a lot from it. It was kind of funny at times. There's interesting things about how we communicated complex topics. And so I can see the benefit of reading something that you wouldn't ordinarily do. I think you'll learn things that you might not.

9:47Helen:What's that book you bought for me that I've been reading? And this is definitely part of my anti-library that we saw. When we went to see our book be printed, there's that beautiful book with the gold cover on. The almoner. It's about the seasons. So you bought that for me, right? because when we saw our book being printed, how do you say it? Almanac. Almanac. Yeah. And I remember saying, oh, what does that even, what does that mean? Because it's a really popular book. Yeah, it's beautiful. And it's beautiful on the cover. But I would never pick up that book because I would think, oh, like, I'm not that interested in the moon.

10:15Helen:There's quite a lot of chat about the moon. There's a lot of moon chat in that book. There's a lot of moon chat. And I'd probably be like, oh, how, yeah, how useful is that going to be to me as like a non-fiction book? There's a lot of information about trees in that book. Oh, I'm really into it. So I have it like downstairs where I like sit and have a coffee, buy some plants. I have it there because it also looks beautiful. And it's because it's done by months. At the start of every month, I just read just for that month. I know quite a lot about tides and the trees. Yeah, I thought that about tides.

10:45Helen:But it's quite a relaxing, it's quite a relaxing read. And that would be a very anti-library read for me. Another one, and it's funny, like this is definitely then got a permanent place on my bookshelf, is How to Break Up With Your Phone. oh yeah which i've not read but i remember you saying that i really hope i'm not getting her name wrong um and that is one of those books you know you see in like gift shops and i i'd be judgy of those books let's be honest i'd be like well that's not that's not you that's not going to help me that's just a show book yeah well you know like oh maybe that's it's not gonna be that helpful for work would be my starting point and then you framed your judgment yeah and then otherwise i'd rather read a fiction book yeah but that book is brilliant so that's another good example of you know like again you could judge a book by the place you're in yeah the cover yeah um and that book is so helpful and it's almost maybe you judge it you said about long books that's quite a short book yeah but it's just short and really good yeah and really like really well written so the i'd like the anti-library it's making me think about be more intentional about it i like it okay next one read with a pen and my build here and a post-it note got it or post-it notes, plural and index tabs and just you wait.

11:55Helen:So we have both done this. Just you wait. Do you start to see these? So should we get our books? Because we have actually this bit we did prepare. Okay. Yeah, but yours is so much tidier than mine. I honestly, I feel like I should, this is a while ago. At least you genuinely use them. Yeah, this is very, this is so genuine. But yeah, do yours because yours looks brilliant and neat and I'm envious of it. Okay. Well, Ryan's two points here was if you're not reading with a pen, you're not really reading. so I don't agree with that for every reading like instance because I'm like well I am really reading yeah it's just back to that if you want it to go sink in yeah and I do understand that um and this bit I really liked because this is where the using the post-it notes has made a big difference to me he says great books are like a great conversation and I was like oh I don't think I had reflected on reading these kind of books in that way before so do you want to know my system yes because later on he talks about reading critically and a bit like a spy is this just before you tell me your system is this a new system because you've got lots of post-it notes to play with and you're like how can I use them to help me read better yeah okay and it's worked yeah okay right go on then what's your system new system sorry my new system and I'll describe it in case you're not even in case you're listening rather than watching so um as I went through I've used the transparent post-it notes which are new to me yeah um in a page okay so the transparent post-it notes are the so what does this mean for me maybe hold it I know most people are listening but we have lots of people on YouTube um okay I was I was I like those I got very excited about transparent one and I think you can probably I think people listening will probably get what a transparent post-it note is a post-it note that you can see through onto the page yes so those have gone sort of in the book okay then i've used like the index like when you say gone in the book what are you writing on those i'm writing my reflection on something i've read on that page what does that mean what does that mean to me okay um so sometimes i'm just looking at this one this is a this one is a question sometimes it's related to our team sometimes it might be our workshops then the flags my index flags have been because there's something i want to come back to okay then i realized a flaw in my system so that was the first attempt at my system and then my flaw was oh but when I see like the index flags I just don't know what they are right so then I went back to the original post notes like right well I see them as like the OG ones um and they have kind of I've created almost like a filing system so I've got you can choose one if you like language yeah blue spoons okay next level noticing yeah language again okay i mean i feel like you're leading with language but i'm going to go blue spoons sarah blue spoons okay so now because of my because of my handy filing system i'm actually quite proud of we can turn to the blue spoon page okay well there also is a transparent note the question the question is yeah what's our equivalent of the blue plastic spoon well i don't know what's a blue plastic spoon well let me tell you move the post it like a tiny bit so he was running you know MoMA in New York the art gallery yeah so he was running the kind of like the cafes and the restaurants in MoMA and they had a posh like ice cream cart in the garden bit yeah um with this amazing ice cream he'd like track down this guy that was like incredible at ice cream and then they sourced these blue plastic spoons that were incredibly well designed and really unique um and really expensive these like tiny like beautiful blue spoons and his point is like you know spend 90 of your budget or 95 of your budget obviously has to be sensible prove return on investment all that kind of good stuff yeah but he's like but you have to have like the special touches still and you'll never be able to justify them on a pnl you know like the blue plastic spoon you can't there's no business case for a blue plastic spoon yeah but he was like but it's the it's the experience it it's what it adds up to it's the intangibility of what that represents um and people like love them and that ice cream cut did really well and he said it's like you should always know what your equivalent of a blue plastic spoon it reminds me of virgin atlantic and the they used to have little airplane i think they still do have these actually a little airplane salt and peppers when you're on flat on the fly and people used to steal them because like they were so cute yeah but then virgin knew that they did then obviously you know nine percent of budget is going on the actual plane and the fuel and everything but they they still spent money on these because they were shareable and stealable and so yeah they're so distinctive oh i like your question i'm trying not to ponder it too much because it's going to distract me for the rest of the episode but i would like to come back to that question so that's my system okay do you want to talk to me about Well, look, so this is a book.

16:58You can't even see the book. What's even the title? It's Atomic Habits. You can't even tell us Atomic Habits because... There's so many post-it notes. There's so many post-it notes, which is a sign of a good book, I think. A sign of a good book. So, yeah, the system here. So there is. So let me just tell you what I do. So I've used the post-it notes for particular... So you've just got headlines on yours of like sections because yours is a filing system. whereas I think are more mine are more I pulled out some quotes and reflections so what does this say too often we convince ourselves that massive success requires massive action oh that's something to ponder and then I appear then for some reason I've also underlined it so I think I probably start with a pen and then I'm like okay that is something to remember it requires a post-it note yes and clearly in this book there's quite a lot to remember so that's part of my not quite sure where I've got some at the top and some not.

17:51I would like to improve having looked at how you've structured yours. But what I do do, I thought this was interesting, is I've also put post-it notes on the front cover. This is interesting. Yeah. And this is because when I'm reading, there are things I want to remember. So that goes on the post-it notes on the pages. But then there's just new thoughts that reading sparks for me, which could be like a LinkedIn post or a framework. So it kind of, I don't know, I create when I'm reading. And so on here, I've got, oh, I've got a career and identity vision board that we should do. I've just created some framework about problem solving, I think, that's on there.

18:30I've got, I mean, I don't know what that is, but there's something here. Wake up, snooze, breakfast. I don't even, I don't know what it says, but there's some other thoughts. Just you creating new habits live. But I think when I'm reading it is also a creative process for me yeah and that's why I love reading days because I think when I'm reading I'm connecting dots and so the more post-it notes on the front of my books I think the more ideas I've got as a result of my reading so we've done the first two build an

18:59Helen:anti-library and read with a pen and a post-it note yeah next one is reread books which I think is quite divisive some people are like never read the same book twice as I read something about um that if you keep rereading books like you've only got so many books you're going to be able to read in your life it's like a waste of time wow and i was like i really like rereading books and there was a quote that ryan shared about like why you should reread which i was like oh this this made sense to me he says you never step in the same river twice yeah you know so like when you read it again yeah you get new reflections um and actually i have read and reasonable Hospitality twice now and I read it in a different way I think the first time I was just reading it with intrigue and curiosity and then you know as probably as I was becoming more and more convinced by the book as I was going through I think the second time I read it more with a that kind of critical spy-like mindset that he talks about where I was I was sort of beyond the story because there's obviously storytelling in the book as well which I was interested in and I'd heard of some of the restaurant so I was like oh this is like just interesting but then I think I was the second time converting the interesting into useful yeah it was the points that I was picking out it was writing the questions I was adding much more of the kind of post-it notes and the tabs the second time around whereas the first time around there was like the odd thing yeah but but it was almost once I knew the book was going to be a permanent book on the bookshelf it was beyond one read that I was like oh yeah this is interesting um so yeah i think that's what that's what stood out for me i was thinking it's the equivalent of like sometimes i'll watch a film once it's not very credible here but like fight club or something like that fight club's a great choice great but you watch it once you're like oh good film and then you watch it again you're like ah now i see you know like it's almost like the second the second time you i guess you would read into different things i have recently i brought it with me um i've recently reread matthew syard's um rebel ideas book which I read ages ago and um which is the power of diverse thinking and I read it the first time because I like his writing and I think we did a podcast on it Matthew was on the yeah you've done a podcast with Matthew yeah and with James on Atomic Habits yeah yeah um but I reread it because of lobster learn like a lobster and um and I definitely was connecting with different concepts in the book because I was in a you know never step in the same river twice I was I was my brain was in a slightly different place.

21:32But I'm going to take this one away because I have such a stack of books I want to read that sometimes I think I might need to challenge myself more to reread because it's not, that would feel, that's almost harder for me than the anti-library. I like that idea. But rereading does, I do get the... Oh, but there's so much new stuff to me. So this is probably the hardest of the three things you've suggested so far for me. Okay. The next one.

21:57Helen:Yeah. books are not precious things yeah it should look like you've read the book yeah um which i think there's zero question about that with your ones and you should take pleasure in folding pages and spilling coffee and actually what's interesting about this i think because probably i do think books are precious like my that's my starting point i nearly bought a new copy of unreasonable hospitality which um will go out who wrote it would probably would have appreciated because I thought oh I've made a real mess of it yeah um that book has been to three or four different countries with me now um it's been in lots of bags and it is starting to get like quite tatty like on the front you know you can like you can see some of it's just from like wear and tear and actually it made me think oh no that's okay I don't need to be embarrassed about it not looking beautiful I think it's because I feel especially with non-fiction and probably because we write non-fiction, I know how much effort goes into them.

22:53Helen:I don't want someone to look at it and be like, what have they done to my book? Even though I love seeing copies of our books, looking, you know, with loads of post-it notes in or people writing or them folded over. Like that's what you want to see. But I sort of don't want to be rude. Well, I think this is a really emotive topic. So I love making a mess of a book. Yeah. I like folding over pages, filling it with post-it notes, putting highlights everywhere. Writing in the margins. Yeah, I absolutely love it. I feel like then it becomes mine. Almost like until I've done that, it's just a book.

23:23But once I put my post-it notes on it, then it's my book. But I've seen some comments of things on like, I was watching something on social media, I can't remember what, and someone was reading a book and they were folding over the corners. Oh, some people are very anti that. People are very, I'm sure, maybe we're going to get some critique on this. Why are people anti that? Because I think they think it's disrespectful. they would see it as damaging a book whereas I feel like it's owning a book is part of what that is but then some people see you shouldn't damage a book as part of the reading process

23:58Helen:I think I have a different point of view for fiction versus non-fiction so actually for fiction I won't fall down a corner and I won't with my son's books either I wouldn't with the children's books I do what I have with Moomin I wouldn't with Max's books partly because I think I'm also thinking I'm probably going to give that to a charity shop I have the same thought with children's book I give those away yeah and I do give some of my fiction books to charity shops as well sometimes I'll keep I'll keep them um and so I don't want to ruin it because I think I want it to be which is a good thing right I want it to be usable for other people my non-fiction books I don't I don't tend to donate in the same way isn't it who would have thought I I agree I think maybe I do fold a page down but I wouldn't highlight because I'm and you're reading in a different way aren't you and then the last one which i think is a really nice one and we know that this helps learning to last and learning to stick is about paying it forward so this is sharing so tell others about books that you love share your reading list like you have had to hear quite a lot about unreasonable hospitality i think you probably feel like you're like i've sort of read that read this book already through me um but i picked some other ones out that I would both reread and recommend.

25:09Helen:Yeah. Because I think that maybe those two things sometimes go hand in hand. So right, kind of wrong, Amy Edmondson. I think I might read that again. I think I might have read it twice already. But you know, I still look at that and think, I remember every time I've read it, I found it really useful. But I don't think it is influencing our work or how we work as a team as much as it could. I have a sense of like a missed opportunity there. Do you think we both have to read it for that to happen? I don't know. It's a good question. No, I think, I suppose, because one of the things she talks about is intelligent failure.

25:49Helen:And I still, I think I reflect on that and I'm like, oh, would we say that we definitely have mistake moments, but I'm not sure we're as good at intelligent failure, which is something different. I think it depends. You're very good at being open and listening to me. if I say I think I've got a good idea for our company or this this might be useful for our company I don't you probably don't have the need to then read it for yourself to be able to listen to me or to believe me that like I've talked to you about some things from a reason hospitality that have already impacted our business I know I've just let it happen and you've you've not read certain things you've not you've not read the book right you've not felt the need to read the book no um I do think sometimes major you probably would do yeah yeah So that was my first one.

26:34Helen:Uncharted, which is Margaret Heffernan. Probably everyone is better off if you read one of Margaret's books. There's quite a few to choose from. She also has a really good substack. I think it's on substack if you want to read that rather than read a book. and then the wonder box which is Roman Krizneric who has been on the podcast talking about empathy but the wonder box is if you are someone who's just very curious there is one chapter about work that I remember reading 15 years ago and it helped to reinforce that squiggly careers was not a rubbish idea but it goes beyond work and so if you're interested in lots of parts of society and being curious and why we are where we are as a society.

27:16I just remember reading that and it helps you to collect lots of dots

27:21Helen:from lots of different places. There's definitely like a squiggly careers section. He didn't call it that, but I'm calling it that. But that's a book I do keep coming back to. There's quite enduring ideas in that book. What about you? I think mine, I was thinking about these and actually I thought, oh, actually all of these I'd quite like to reread now, right now, which is probably a good sign but it's because I have quite an emotional connection with the books because they've helped me at different points I've got three Mashup by Ian Sanders because I read that we have both read that yeah and that was back in 2012 2011 yeah 2011 2012 and that was really helpful for me when I was thinking oh I think I'm more than just someone who does a job in a company I think there's I've got more strings to my bow I don't quite know how to talk about who I am and what I want to do and his book gave me confidence and clarity and I really I really did things differently after reading that so I'm a very soft spot for Ian Sanders book there um how to have a good day by Caroline Webb that made a real difference to me when I when I read it at the time and I would really like to reread it um I know my friend Carl Quinlan um has had her on his podcast um and so I was probably maybe I'll listen to that and read the book at the same time and so I want to reread that and another one and again someone else that's been on our podcast Michael D Watkins and the first 90 days yeah it's a classic it is a classic and do you know what I used to read it all the time because I used to start more jobs but I think but maybe I should because I've recently become a trustee um for the Chartered Management Institute which is effectively a new job because I think I've probably gone oh well I'm not doing a new job so I don't need to read that book anymore even though it was such a good it's such a good read for how you make a quick impact and how you build the right relationships when you're starting a new role.

29:05I would highly recommend that to anyone in a new job. And I think I may be ruled out reading it again because it's not me, but maybe, you know, the fresh start effect. Maybe like new job, new year, new job, even if it's the same job. Maybe it's...

29:19Helen:And also maybe it is interesting to read, like you said, maybe if I read it as somebody without anything new, but if I was like, but I am just going to create the next 90 days. You know, almost like with that mentality. Yeah. Because I'm sure you could apply the mindset at whatever point you're at. It's an interesting one. And then we thought, as well as Ryan Holiday, we'll create our own rules. So I asked Helen, and we did talk about this before, if we were creating one rule for reading nonfiction, as we kind of talked about today, what would we add that we've not talked about today? Helen, what would you add?

29:55I think as well as reading the book, is really, well, I find it really interesting to listen to the author talk about the book. So I find a podcast where they are being interviewed and they're talking about the book. And the reason I like it is having read the book, I then really connect with the conversation they're having. And you also hear a few more insights. There's often a story that didn't quite make the book or there's just like a little bit of extra detail. And so I don't do that for all the books I read, but books I, nonfiction books I really enjoy, I will then look for the conversation that the authors had with somebody else.

30:30And I, I don't know, I connect with it in an even deeper way. That's nice.

30:34Helen:And also, I suppose, in a more personal way, because you're hearing their side of it. Their, you know, their view. It's a bit like if someone listened to us, the story behind why we wrote Learn Like a Lobster or what it means to me, in my voice, might be different to what we have written together. In a book, yeah. Yeah. Mine was pick a book that solves a problem that you've got. Okay. Because I think I read nonfiction in quite a pointed way. Probably a bit less curious than I am about, almost like widely curious about other things. And so I really remember reading on a train, I think going up somewhere the north of the UK, to quite a long train journey, a book called Essentialism, which is Greg McEwen.

31:17Helen:And it was at a time where we were struggling to prioritise. And there was like ever, there's always so much like you and I want to do. But you're very mindful if you can't do everything and you want to have an impact. And I think sometimes books meet you where you are or in a moment of need. And so I think it almost like if you're trying to reconnect with reading, if you're listening to this and you haven't actually read a nonfiction book in ages, which I think is loads of people. I don't think, you know, we sort of almost have books as a bit of part of our job and part of our life. But I think don't beat yourself up.

31:51Helen:But if you're trying to reconnect with reading and you want to do it in a way where you're like, how can this be helpful for my job? Start off with, well, what am I almost trying to get better at or a problem I've got or what do I want to achieve? And then often I'm like, there's a book for that. Also, if anyone's got a problem and they want a book recommendation, just email me. That's very huge. I would love. Those are the emails that I want in my inbox. Helen and Sarah at squigglycareers.com. Anyone who's like, this is what I want to read about. tell me and I will reply with a book recommendation.

32:23And not take that joy from your life because I think you would enjoy that. But just somebody who has already done a bit of a shortcut for that. What? Well, I'm thinking Toby Sinclair has those really useful like flow charts where it's like, if you want to learn about this, and he does a flow chart, because I think we featured in it a few times, where he will recommend nonfiction books. So if you follow Toby Sinclair, particularly on LinkedIn. But rather than me on LinkedIn. Well, no, no, I think. Well, definitely not me on LinkedIn. Follow Sarah, message Sarah, she'll reply and it'll bring her joy.

32:52In addition to Sarah, Toby's got some quick flow charts. To be fair, that sounds better than me. Yours, I think, would be super thoughtful and personal, which is very kind. He's just got like an efficient version. His sounds efficient.