The Marshmallow Test: How to Master Delayed Gratification for Career Success

0:00They ran an experiment with kids where they could either eat one marshmallow now or they could wait 15 minutes and then they could get two. And what they proved is that the kids that could delay gratification went on to do better in life. They could hold out for the better outcome. And then actually when you do then start to put this into kind of an everyday life context, you do realise it sort of stacks up in lots of different ways. You probably do your best work when delayed gratification is part of the process.

0:30I think ladder-like careers sometimes have a bit more instant gratification things in there. You know, like get promoted, get happy. You know, this idea that like if I do that, then this is the outcome. I think our days and weeks are full of one marshmallow decisions that we often do without thinking because of habits that we've got into. If you can start just thinking, but what would the two marshmallow payoff be here? With that in mind, what choice do I want to make? Hi, I'm Sarah. And I'm Helen. And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast. Every week we borrow some brilliance from a people, place, object, book.

1:09We go all over the place. But we try to turn that curiosity into some useful action for you and your squiggly career. So, Helen, what are we borrowing from this week? Well, it's kind of a combination of something, a physical thing. And I suppose it's two somethings, the concept of delayed gratification and also the marshmallow. I think we're putting those two things together because there is quite a lot of research that has been done. It's called the marshmallow experiment. And this was this was slightly sort of sparked by a couple of things. I was doing a long train journey to Padstow to meet Sarah to go and meet some lobsters a week or so ago.

1:52As you do. As you do. Standard week in the life of Amazing If. And I was in the train station and I thought, you know, I'm just going to pick up a random book so I can read it on the train. And I picked up the marshmallow experiment because when we were writing lobsters, at one point when we were writing Learn Like a Lobster, at one point there was a chapter on marshmallow. so it's I kind of thought which doesn't sound likely but it's 100 % true it's so it's so fun but it's because marshmallows have been used in lots of different experiments so there's there's quite there's quite a lot learned from marshmallows but specifically we wanted to focus on one particular experiment that was done with marshmallows which is around the concept of delayed gratification which is a topic for today and Sarah would you like to distill in a minute what that research was for people yeah and I think this is one study and the more you delve into this people always have the caveats of like it's anyone's study um but if you have got kids it is quite a fun fun game to play and basically they ran an experiment with kids where they could either eat one marshmallow now or they could wait 15 minutes and then they could get two and i was thinking my eight-year-old would 100 just be like fine i'll just have the one now he'd like that's definitely him um and what they they proved in what is a kind of quite a small sample though like worth having worth having that in mind is that the kids that could delay gratification um went on to do better in life you know like they could they could hold out for the better outcome because obviously two marshmallows is better than one 15 minutes is not that long um great you just sort of need you know sort of i suppose the short-term sacrifice for like the long-term gains and then actually when you do then start to put this into kind of an everyday life context you do realize it sort of stacks up in lots of different ways whether you think about exercise or health any big work things that you're really proud of typically there tends to be quite a lot of delayed gratification along the way so I do think it is a useful skill to learn particularly when almost like at the same time there's a bit of attention it's like you probably do your best work when you've got when delayed gratification is part of the process at the same time there are probably more things trying to distract you from that than ever before more immediate gratification available I guess and I think just in the sort of context of career development I think ladder like careers sometimes have a bit more instant gratification things yeah you know like um get get promoted get happy you know this idea that yeah if I do that then this is the outcome whereas i think sometimes squiggly careers are a bit more about the delayed gratification which is you know like we talk about develop the skills of values you know knowing what motivates and drives you and and use those as a filter for your future that means that you might you might not take a role we talk sometimes we talk about like shiny objects you might not take a job that looks really shiny like because it's got a really good job title or it's working for a really good brand you might not take that now because you know that actually it's not going to give you what you really need over the long term which is your values so you might delay the gratification of moving into a new role because you know that a role that is likely to be better for you in the long term is coming and I think that squiggly careers are a lot I think a lot of it is about developing the self-awareness to make better decisions about your development but that probably means you're going to have to use the appeal of some shiny objects that might be presented to you that are quite sort of you know ladder-like in their appeal for the longer term delayed gratification of something that's probably going to be a better fit for you and that really reminds me of I remember working with somebody and being like so impressed by it where she decided to do a squiggle and stay sideways move into working in digital when digital was kind of not not where it is today so this probably what 10 11 years ago and but at the same time she could have taken a more senior role like more senior role more pay more status much more ladder like and she sort of delayed that gratification because I think she could see her at the outcome that she was like yeah but this is a skill that's going to be really important to me I'm going to be much more employable in my squiggly career if I get these skills and this is one job in the scheme of lots and lots of jobs I'm going to be working for a long time and I just remember thinking that takes a lot of confidence to delay that gratification but also then obviously I've seen how she's kind of squiggled after that and like it's totally paid off but like you say probably in that moment she did the she she took the two marshmallow decision right yes yeah this is what we're going to talk about everyone so we thought we thought that in work there are lots of one marshmallow and two marshmallow choices to be made we've decided we've decided ideas so whether it's about i don't know how you how you build relationships or how you show up in project meetings all these different things or the activities in our day-to-day life there are one marshmallow decisions which are this is going to feel great right now and then there are two marshmallow decisions which is but if i wait that the payoff is going to be better and it is it is a choice as to what you do um and we're not going to say you know always choose two like it's a personal choice do you want the one marshmallow it's like sarah's sarah's little boy max is not bad because he chose the one marshmallow it's just he potentially could have had two if he'd waited and and what we want to sort of present to you is some common what we think are common one marshmallow and two marshmallow decisions that you might have and and help you to possibly be a bit more informed about the choice you're making rather than just defaulting to probably the one marshmallow decision we just want to present the present the choice to you i also think it's really helpful the more helen and i dived into this you can then start to apply this in a really personal way and almost i think you could go through a week and be like right today how many one marshmallow decisions did i make and how many two marshmallow decisions did i make and And the more we started talking about this, the more I think you start to spot them.

8:05And I don't think you can, no one's perfect. I sometimes think we need the one marshmallow. I'm like, I actually, you know, just like from, I do think, I do think sometimes. I want a quick win. Just give me the quick win. I need the quick. I think sometimes it is okay to be like, you can't, you know, like no one's perfect. I feel like if you're always doing too marshmallowing, you're too perfect. That's nobody. But I do think there are probably some things where you might be like, do you know what? I could I could take myself away from the one marshmallow here because actually I want the whole point here is you're not just doing the two marshmallow decision just just for the sake of it there should be a really motivating outcome that you want and now for the kids it's they just want the two marshmallows but for us at work if you can connect the two marshmallows with something that matters to you and that you find motivating then I think you stand more of a chance of being able to be like well i'm not going to do that thing that thing right now so shall we talk about the common situations that we think everyone can relate to because i think once you once you've got your head around those you can start to then think about well what what other one marshmallow two marshmallow decisions am i making in in my day at work and i think you can personalize this a little bit more and where should we start let's start with email i think that's the most obvious one versus two marshmallow opportunity probably for everybody okay so on email we think the one marshmallow decision leads to people instantly replying.

9:28So because the benefit that often you're getting when you get an email and then you instantly reply to it and you're in your inbox all day, I think it feels good for lots of people to be responsive. I'm the sort of person who does it and gets it done. And therefore I answer my emails as soon as they come in and I'm responsive. And that's quite a one marshmallow decision because you're being very reactive and it feels really, really good in the moment. So and I'm I am probably the sort of person who does that quite a lot. I think I'm quite one marshmallow about my email. But the the two marshmallow decision is, you know, what if you only checked your email twice a day?

10:06OK, so you just do it twice a day. So you're not doing the replying to everything, getting the instant buzz when you press send. You just check your emails twice a day. So that's a sort of delayed gratification. But the payoff, the two marshmallows that you get is you're likely to be more efficient and effective with the rest of the work that you do that day because you're not task switching you're not distracted you're not kind of wasting your time constantly checking your emails and you know you're not even prioritizing what you're applying to in that situation so we think with email you have a one marshmallow respond straight away or a two marshmallow delay that gratification and the payoff is efficiency and effectiveness of your work i think and you're gonna not like this i think i'm like a one and a half marshmallow with email see i knew i was like she's not gonna be up course she is i'm like it's really important that we create clarity for people on the podcast so that they make sense of it and sarah's like yes yes but also could we just well the reason i say that is so i don't do what you do i don't think i'm as i also i'm not naturally as responsive as you are so i don't feel like i have to read and respond straight away so i think i can i can delay that gratification but i think i so i have like a flagging system so i do read them a lot though so actually the idea of doing it twice daily that actually does feel quite hard for me so i'm like oh that's not what i do i i'm i'm pretty on top of like what's coming in most you know when i'm not doing other things but i never respond straight away it's quite rare actually for me to respond in that moment but you read straight away Do you read straight away?

11:38I read straight away, but I don't respond straight away. So what's your payoff? So if you're one marshmallowing, you're reading when they come in. What's your payoff for that? What, in the reading in the moment? Yeah, yeah. Just probably that I feel like I still feel on top of things. Okay. But for me, that's enough. I don't actually feel like I need to respond. And I suppose if it was super urgent, at least I've seen it. So you feel more in control. Your one marshmallow is control. Yeah, control. I mean, not that I was trying to get you to say that. but I thought that might be it. So I think I feel in control.

12:12Okay. The one marshmallow helps me to feel in control. The two, I'm like, oh, I feel out of control. Well, so I wait because then you're never going to take the two marshmallows. So I'm trying to work out. So if your one marshmallow is, I read it as soon as it comes in because the payoff for me is I feel in control. So if I said to you, but Sarah, only check it twice, only read twice a day. Don't waste your time reading those things. You know, stay focused on whatever else you're doing. only read twice a day what could your two marshmallow payoff be like what's what's a bigger and better benefit for you of reading twice a day wouldn't be efficiency don't think i care enough yeah about that about that it would need to be something to do with like the quality of the work so if i felt that the actually even the quality of my email responses because i actually would care about those um so like the quality of you know like the responding to emails that are in a way that is clear and straightforward and like makes sense because i think that that matters to people um and it matters to me and if it meant that the quality of the work that i did the rest of the time was also higher then that would always motivate me so mine would be quality so your one marshmallow is control in like ever kind of sort of omnipresent control always in control yeah always in control omnipresent control i see it and i know it's and i'm in control of it that's very appealing that's why i have the marshmallow it's like i'll take that marshmallow every time whereas the two marshmallows is potentially increasing the quality of your work and your communications and it's quite yeah quite appealing it is i still think it's hard it's why all the kids take the one marshmallow yeah it's why i'm like ah because Because the one marshmallow, I think you have to remind yourself, is still attractive and tastes good and is appealing.

14:04So it is appealing to be in control. And also probably we're all more used to the one marshmallow. And so I think, you know, when we've talked before about like experimenting or like trying stuff out, rather than probably doing this in a dramatic way. If I was going to do this and maybe I won't try next week's on holiday. So I was basically cheating. I could be like, I'll do it next week. I got 20 marshmallows. I think I could try this for I think I would pick a day that I felt most confident about picking so probably a Friday so I think I get the least amount of emails on a Friday and I think I would try it on a Friday and I'd be like can I hold out for the two marshmallows on a Friday okay I'll have a go I promise I will have a go I feel like I'm at the kids show now I promise I promise I will have a go and report back okay are you going to have a go?

14:51um yeah I mean I might have the one marshmallow on this that was the least convincing okay maybe do another one because I feel like maybe that's not your one we did say it's a choice right so all we're trying to do is present people with the benefits you're like no this might not be my one you're like I'm not gonna okay let's do another one okay I think this next one this is more appealing the two marshmallows might be more appealing to me here okay so I'll get Sarah to explain it but at a high level this is about like managing what you say yes to So we think that, particularly if you're a bit of a people pleaser, there are lots of situations at work where you might find yourself saying yes.

15:30So Sarah's going to talk through like the one marshmallow benefit of why we do that and a potential two marshmallow payoff of doing something different. And here I think I'm already a two marshmallow-er. So I think I'm OK here. You're right. So it's also good, right? It's good to know where you're already good at this. so the one marshmallow would be you say yes to everything and to everyone perhaps if you particularly feel good at people pleasing and those are people always usually really nice people in my experience um and you do that you do that because you're helpful and also it feels good you're like I asked someone in our team can you help me with this they say yes and they just do it but I've obviously derailed or distracted kind of where whatever they were doing I actually I I actually thought about this one.

16:14I was like, oh, I actually did that yesterday. I asked the team for some help with something. And do you know what was interesting? There were two people that offered to help. And do you know who was one of them? You. Me. Oh, yeah. Of course it was. Yeah. Two people offered to help. And I was like, one of them was Helen, who probably is the busiest person in our team. But because you're really helpful and because you're really nice and because you're a yes. I like you. I hate you feeling stuck. I'm like, I can help you. To be fair, I came with everything by myself in the end. And I was like, perfect.

16:43So I'm like, this is, so the one marshmallow payoff is I feel really helpful and I feel good and I feel useful. So they're all really good feelings. That's why we all want the one marshmallow. The delay, the two marshmallow option is to say no. And it doesn't mean saying, I don't think what we're saying here is like say no all the time. It's saying no. And the outcome of the two marshmallows is so you can have more impact. I think probably very practically, you're saying no so you can make more progress on your priorities so often if I say to people in workshops like oh do you feel like your priorities um kind of get overtaken by other people's priorities or you know you end up doing other work that you'd not anticipated that's often a problem for people lots of people kind of recognize that so I think yeah the payoff here is that you will make more progress on things that really matter to you in your job versus kind of I don't think it's an I don't you think the two marshmallows suddenly makes you an unhelpful person I think it just makes you a more impactful person yes I agree and that is really appealing to me and I've I've reflected on this a little bit I think I I can do the two marshmallow one in this in this situation like the saying say if you say yes a lot which I do because I love to help and I love to say yes and I hate to say no but I think I have got better at the saying no because I know that my payoff will be better with people outside of Amazing If, which has been hard for me.

18:07You know, so lots of people have said, oh, can you get involved in this thing? Or can you help us with this? Or can we do this? And I've had to say no, because for Sarah and I at the moment, we're running our business and launching a new book. And that's like two really big things. And so I've had to say to some people, I'm really sorry, I can't get involved in that because I'm trying to make this the best book yet, the best book yet. And that's my two marshmallow. And I'm very attached to that. but I really struggle inside our business so when anyone in in amazing if wants help I will often say yes of course and I will drop the two marshmallow payoff like the the project being even better or the quality of the thing that I'm working on the impact of my work I will just drop that instantly and just be like and take the helpful feeling and take that and I think I could get a bit better at the two marshmallow choice in the company with the people who work in the business my reflection that's useful because i think what you've then done is also thought about situations you know so you've identified specific situations where the two marshmallow versus the one marshmallow like what's more likely where so you're like actually do you know i'm all right now i and you know what that feels like because you've had the two marshmallows yeah like okay i know that that feels like i feel better actually i feel good you know the two marshmallows it's not just about my impact it's about my um when i say no because i i it's i don't maybe it's like a little bit self-respect is a very big thing to say but i feel like i feel a bit proud of myself i'm like oh i felt like i was really clear about why i can't get involved and i was still nice i still kind of yeah and i maybe helped them in some other way i maybe gave them some other bit information i kind of feel a bit like proud of myself i think that's also a little bit it's like a little mini marshmallow that i i kind of get when i do that now we're getting into like those little tiny ones the ones that you get hot chocolate yeah yeah yeah i was like we've we've got there we've come up with every version of them also how when do we get to like those giant ones the giant ones oh my gosh the giant ones like what's the big giant marshmallow payoff no yeah the other thing i was thinking there was um you could still be helpful but without it being you so that's what you described a little bit there so one of the things that you might want to do if you're thinking about the internal thing is part of your assumption is that help has to be you and so one of the things that you could do to like someone in our team because i think you'd find a very straight no hard because you are so naturally helpful you might be like ah so i i can't help you today on it because whatever you're doing because i've got five workshops or whatever you've got on that day but you know what i actually think sarah will be able to help you on that or i think lucy might be able to help you like so someone else in our team who you know has got those skills or at least could could offer a bit of support because i reckon there's always someone somewhere who could help so i think it's probably also a bit letting go of like this this has to be me I feel like I need on my desk you know like a like a drawing of two marshmallows with like the project I'm working on you know to keep it in mind yeah be like okay my two marshmallow thing this week is making this project brilliant and then almost having it like a little post-it note I could feel like I could draw it and stick it on my laptop and every time I go to type yeah sure I was going to look at that post-it note with the two marshmallows against the project and be like no no no that's that's the payoff that's that's the thing that you really really want to keep it in my mind i guess even if you did it 50 of the time you know if you're like well if if if you're saying yes to everyone in the team 100 of the time which i bet you're not far off i bet you know like as in like percentage of times that you actually i can't imagine i can't actually imagine you even doing it so you know you wait till you hear my nose next week when you're on holiday and you won't actually yeah we're on holiday and can't actually do it but like even to me and i'm like i'm the person that you should be able to say no to like you a you just know me really like we have different relationship right our relationships all all over the place but i should be someone that you can be like do you know what there's something more important than helping sarah with this question she's got and you still say yes to me so maybe it's about starting you know like saying no to the people that feel easiest to say no to so i reckon i am easier for you to say no to than anyone else in the team or i should be um then you maybe go from there okay maybe maybe oh okay i am i am quite motivated by that one i'm much more motivated than that than checking my emails twice a day for that payoff i'm not she's solving my problems but no it's all right it's all right i'll i want you to have the two marshmallows shall we talk about jobs and applying for jobs i think this is a good one with the one versus two marshmallow so maybe if i do the one marshmallow and then you do what the two looks like so the one marshmallow version of applying for a job is wait to see a job advertised apply for the job and you either get it or you don't it's very wait rather than create it's very reactive um also you know you feel good maybe be about applying for a job you're like i'll just um put my cv in send my covering letter so i do think actually doing those things can be quite stressful but you know like you're sort of you're responding to something and maybe you get an interview maybe you don't but you're like i've just i've just done it in that instant moment i've got the i've seen a job i want and i've applied for the job um i'm slightly i was pausing a little bit because i'm wondering whether i should tell you this story because you might panic but um i saw one today i mean i didn't think about applying for it no i did think i kind of did think about it but not because right because it was because it's a bit this one i was like wow that's so cool so the job was an entrepreneur in residence and we've seen jobs like this yes it's really good and it wasn't even full time it was you could just do like a couple of hours a month and your job was to like inspire the people in in the company i was like i know that's so true i didn't think that i was just like yes let me let me go do this um i was like maybe i could like have a little side project paying someone for that yes and i thought this is really cool an entrepreneur in residence for a couple of hours a month just put the money yeah but then i looked at it a i thought sarah will kill me and then i looked at it and you needed to know some like very specific technical things i was like it was like yeah i was like i haven't i haven't got that but it did sound quite cool you can't just like bring your energy i think you were imagining you could just like walk around i'm like so energetic Would you like just some ideas about careers?

24:12And they're like, no, because we need some molecular knowledge that you don't have. But anyway, that's kind of the one marshmallow thing is you kind of see something. You know, like Sarah said, you're waiting, you see it and you just apply straight away without really thinking about it because that's what's real good. The two marshmallow approach to applying for a job. So this is where, you know, you're delaying the gratification. You're not getting the instant I've applied, I'm in, I'm in the mix, is to build relationships around the roles that you are interested in. And so there could be more than one role.

24:44So I might be like, oh, who's been an entrepreneur in residence? I might go talk to some people around those particular roles or maybe there's a function you want to move into or, you know, whatever it is. But you might pick like two or three people who are connected in some way to those opportunities and you are going to build relationships with them, understand what they do, understand how they got there, understand what knowledge that they developed to be able to do those things. And the reason that you want to do this is because it is often conversations and connections that create career opportunities.

25:19And if you can build relationships around the roles that you're interested in, it is much more likely that the opportunities will come to you. And so the delayed gratification thing is here is that's going to take longer. like building relationships around the roles that you are interested in is going to take a lot longer than just applying for a job that you've seen on LinkedIn today but the payoff of doing this is that jobs come to you like and I've definitely seen this yeah because I had this feedback from somebody in my career when I'd apply for a job and didn't get it and I was really demotivated by it and they said you know Helen you want to put yourself in a position where the jobs come to you and relationships are a massive way building your brand and building relationships are basically how that happens and both of them take a bit of time but if you can do it it's a I think that's a I think that's the big marshmallow you know we were like what's the big chunky one what's the giant the giant let's call it the giant the giant marshmallow the one that you put on the you know on the bonfire like the really big ones but I think having jobs come to you is a giant marshmallow in your squiggly career yeah and yeah you're right because I think also some of those curious career conversations won't go anywhere but i go but the worst case scenario is you've built a new relationship or a new connection yeah or sometimes you just never know when things are going to come back or pay off like there are some people who've like got in touch with me who maybe i've not like seen for 10 years but they'll be like oh but i do you know what i actually had this yesterday someone emailed us to say how much they love the squiggly careers in action newsletter someone i used to work with when i was at barclays this is a really long time ago like 15 years ago and he was like every time I read it I just think I'm like so like a proud almost of like the business that you and Helen are building and he's like I just wanted to say that because I think every week but I never I wanted to tell you what a nice thing to also do you fancy having a coffee and I was like yeah of course of course I do I like I always love spending time with this guy he was like a smart sparky strategic person I always learned a lot from and I was like yeah great and you're like who knows where that will go or that will lead if you're going to leave me to be an entrepreneur in residence i'm not but i just thought it was cool like oh maybe i need to start having these chats quick um but you know when you're like well that would be so easy to not do you know like there'd be no amazing if reason that's not on any to-do list anywhere that's not on any career list even anywhere but those kind of people know people i don't know see things i can't see and i always want to have like i want to pull interesting opportunities and possibilities for us for like career stuff yeah like to work with different people and for things that we could try out for the first time and it's other people who make those happen and that's why i will say yes to that because i mean i will enjoy it so there's not that much of a hardship but you know it is also the one marshmallow thing would be would be no because i'm going to tick one more thing off my to-do list the two marshmallow thing is you're going to just go and have a conversation with someone and be really curious and i guess i guess that the conclusion is of the conversation about marshmallows is that I think our days and weeks are full of one marshmallow decisions that we often do without thinking because of habits that we've got into and how it makes us feel in the moment and if you can start just thinking but what what what would the two marshmallow payoff be here and with that in mind what choice do I want to make and you still might choose one marshmallow but at least you've done it with awareness and intention and you know what you're trading off i think maybe more if we can add a bit more of that into our days and weeks then we i i think ultimately you're gonna just make more choices about how you want to show up and what you want to do and not just operate on you know autopilot which is a bit of the one marshmallow trap sometimes really good article to read on this if you've read this you're like oh i'm actually interested to kind of learn a bit more so james clear has got a really good article on delayed gratification and he's also got some really good like top tips in there he links through to some really interesting kind of strategies so we've not talked about all of those today but i read it and i was like oh this is all really helpful quite a good guide for if you're setting up your own one versus two marshmallow decision making for your working week um so i'd recommend having a quick look at that obviously we'll put it in the show notes and you know where else we'll put it sarah in the squiggly careers in action newsletter which you're which which has been recommended by one of Sarah's friends comes highly recommended comes highly recommended just on the Squiggly Careers in Action newsletter I am really proud of that because we didn't used to have a newsletter we used to have this email we sent out to our brilliant pop plus community and we just decided you know what we're creating so much stuff we want to put it together in a way that's useful so if you do not subscribe to the Squiggly Careers in Action newsletter it is something that we work really hard on each week to pull together the podcasts and the Squiggly shortcuts and the behind the scenes stuff and stories about what Sarah and I are doing and research and reports we've found.

30:14So if you are interested in the work that we are doing and you want to learn more, I would recommend signing up for it. Head to either the show notes or our website, amazingif.com, or if you still can't find the link to sign up, just email us, helenandsarahatsquigglycareers.com, and we will send it your way. But that's everything for this week. Thank you so much for listening. I don't know about you, but I'm considering having a marshmallow. The advantage is having an eight-year-old. We'll be back with you again soon. Bye for now. Bye, everybody.