182 - Bill Burnett: How to Design a Meaningful Life

31:19I really care about kids in education. Okay, then what are we doing with this lawyer thing? Let's reset, reset, reset. And maybe kids in education is just a fantasy you had because you had a teacher who really liked you and you wanted to be like her. Okay, well, let's sort that out. I came to Stanford. I wanted to be a physics major because I'd seen a NOVA show on physics. and Stanford had a big linear accelerator and my physics teacher really liked me. And he said I was smart. I was a terrible physics teacher.

31:56But literally, I declared physics because my teacher liked me and I liked the feeling I got from a grown-up who said I was smart. Not smart enough to do physics, evidently, when I got to Stanford. So it does take a little bit of stepping back or stepping away from the frame you're in and just saying, does this still make sense? And that's why when starting with my life view and my work view and the story I'm telling myself and what parts of that story aren't working anymore.

32:30So it does take a little bit of knowing yourself, stepping back, looking at the frames. But we're not a philosophy class. We're not a psychology class. We're a design class. So the way you do that is you go, well, let me design. All right. So what would it look like if I actually followed this thing and I go to law school and become a lawyer? What's that life look like? And I just detail it out as much as I can understand about how that would be. And then one of the challenges is not do a wild. What would you do if you don't have to worry about money? You got enough? And what would you do if all your friends would say, you got a Stanford degree and you want to be a clown?

33:12for Cirque du Soleil? Awesome! That's great! That's fantastic! Go for it! Instead of, what are you, crazy? I don't know how many students have come to me and saying I want to be an education major or something, but my friends are saying, why are you wasting a Stanford degree on that? I want to be a poet. Why are you wasting a Stanford degree on that? Like what you did at Stanford is going to decide what you should do for the rest of your life. Which, by the way, isn't true. 10 years out of school, less than 20 % of you will be doing anything that has anything to do with what you studied in college.

33:45That's the data. Your major is the way you organized Stanford. It's not the way you organized your life. Not for very long, anyway. But, man, it does take a little bit of work because you have to be kind of honest with yourself. Are you just chasing the little dopamine hit of someone saying, good job? Or are you doing something that actually matters to you? Which might actually not get you praise and not get you anything up front, but will eventually result in something that's meaningful. You know, I do programs for people in their 30s and 40s. And I do programs for people in their 50s and 60s.

34:28And it's pretty common, probably because they came to a life design seminar, that they're unhappy in their mid-career. they picked something thought it was going to be good doctor lawyer engineer whatever get a lot unhappy lawyers and they got there and they were and they were all successful they're not unsuccessful they're quite successful they're making a lot of money and they report themselves as deeply unhappy and they also think it's too late to change which is not the first thing we start with it's not too late to change and i'm not suggesting you change i'm just suggesting you figure out what's making you so and happy.

35:04And they do the whole process, life view, work view, stuff, they build some prototypes, they talk to some people, and they come back and they say, you know, I realize this is the first time I actually ask myself what I want, versus just doing the thing that I was good at, couldn't make money at. And I'm still not exactly sure exactly what it is that I want, but now that that circuit's turned on, that emotional circuit is turned on, I can't turn it off. I'm not going to quit my job tomorrow and go walk up a mountain in the Himalayas and try to find a guru. But I am going to start thinking about what actually works for me.

35:46And over time, they change. Maybe they're not a lawyer anymore. Or maybe they're just a civil rights lawyer now and they're working on stuff they really care about instead of writing contracts for big corporations. or maybe they're out of that but they're using that same way of thinking to drive a new non-profit that they're passionate about so it's a process it's not like oh so you take my class and suddenly you know what you want to do for the rest of your life what you know is you've got a process for figuring out what you want to become as you grow and change and as the world's opportunities change I didn't ever think I'd have an opportunity to be a professor at Stanford never on my list just shout up one day when David Kelly said, hey.

36:34Now, I mean, I had done some things in that direction, but I never thought about doing it full time. You know, things like that. You just have to know the right thing to do. By the way, that job came with about a 60 % pay cut. So there was a long conversation with my wife about whether our family could afford it. She's wonderful, by the way. She works and supported that crazy notion that I should take a big bank out and go do something I loved. My other advice is find a really good partner. That is also great advice. So when people discover they're maybe not happy and where they already are in their careers, if they're not going to quit their jobs, how can they bring more meaning into what their current job is or what their current life is?

37:26oh yeah and there's lots of there's lots of ways to do that by the way just in terms of your current job we wrote a whole book called designing your new work life right after covid about how to make your job more interesting and there's lots of ways to do that because um there's an old thing people don't quit jobs they quit bosses 70 percent of the reason people leave their jobs they don't like their boss but just quitting your company to get a different boss turns out to be just big a jerk is the last one, is not a very smart strategy. And there's lots of ways of managing inside your, you know, if you're working in a big company, I'm starting at Apple, it's 150 ,000 people.

38:04You know, if you don't like your boss, there's 100 other jobs in the company you can move laterally into. So, I mean, before you just quit something over a temp, it's only going to be your boss for the next couple of years, and then he'll move on or you'll move on or she'll move on or whatever. but um it's the important thing we always stressed in all the books including the book on work it's like design your life first with a job in it job happens to be the thing you do most of the time 40 50 sometimes more hours a week so it's the one thing yeah that dominates a lot of your time but it doesn't have to dominate all your energy your intention your your soul or whatever so first What does it on your life?

38:46And then figure out how the job fits. And by the way, the notion that the job is going to be super meaningful is pretty new. It's a sort of Gen Z-ish idea that's become quite popular. But, you know, my grandparents were immigrants. Like everybody came to this country with nothing, 50 bucks in their pocket, didn't speak English. They came from Germany. And when they got out of Germany in 1933, because that was when Hitler was elected in Germany, My grandfather thoughtfully didn't think that was going to work out so well. When he got to America, he took any job. You know, 50 cents a day, shoveling crap out of the sewage tanks in Palo Alto.

39:29I mean, he took any job because his mission was to put a roof over the kid's head and get him to a safe place and get him an education that he couldn't have. You know, on and on and on. It's a classic immigrant story. And he still had meaning in his life. He had his church, he had his community, and the other expat Germans who were also refugees. And it was rough if you were German in America during the war. His neighbors, who were Japanese, were put in a German camp. The Germans were almost the same thing. He used to throw rocks at my mom on her way to school and call her a Nazi. So life was hard, right, in those days.

40:03But make money is one thing, and meaning comes from your community and your family and other things. So money and meaning, two different things. It could come from the same place. It might come from different things. You could just work for money and have a reasonable job and make as much as you can. And then get your passion or your excitement out of coaching a girls' soccer team, coaching a Lola team, being involved with the PTA, doing something. Typically, meaning the highest level of Maslow's Pyramid is not self-actualization. in his diaries before he died he said it's not self-actualization i got it wrong the highest level of self-transcendence which in wisdom traditions is called compassion doing something for people other than yourself transcending yourself connecting your story to something bigger than yourself whether that's volunteering in your community or you know at the other end committing your life to your spiritual tradition.

41:04Whatever it is, that's where you get the life design strategy working. So you start from the outside. What's the transcendent thing in your world? Is that going to come from your job or not? That's fine. It can come from there. It can come from volunteer things. It can come from other things. So lots of ways you work in the world. They have nothing to do with money. and then designing the thing that is the 40, 50 hour a week thing to be at least a positive energy, life-giving thing. And maybe it is the meaningful thing. Maybe your job and your, now for me, my job and my meaning making are identical.

41:43Just trying to help people. I'm trying to, I tell my undergrads, I just don't want you to be that lost PhD student someday who doesn't know why they're in a PhD program. And I tell my PhD students, I just don't want you to be that lost 45-year-old engineer who shows up in my workshop going, I don't know what's wrong with my life, but I haven't had any fun in the last 25 years. And then I don't want that. I tell my 45-year-olds, I don't want you showing up in my retirement workshop going, I wasted my entire career doing shit I didn't like. So somewhere along the line, I want people to sort of stop, wake up, do the process, you know, design it.

42:22Don't just fall. I mean, life will just happen to you. It will be a series of rewards and punishments. It will just happen. That's the way it's organized. And if you don't take control of it, you could end up someplace you really didn't want to be. So to be the designer. In your book, you talk about how part of this process is knowing what you value and being in congruence with that. Some values seem more general, like kindness. I'm sure a lot of us value kindness. How do we take that value that may be more broad and make it personal to us and know what to do with that more personal part of the value?

43:04You know, yeah, it's a great question. And, you know, design is something you have to do, right? I mean, I can't teach design by showing your designs, right? Like I was just announced, I could show you all the videos of Tiger Woods swinging a golf club, but that would not teach you golf. You're going to have to pick up the club. You're going to have to swing it. I can show you how to hold it maybe, how to dress the ball, you know, some of the mechanics of it. But you've got a swing club. Same thing with design. So you can say, well, kindness is one of my values. I get great. So show me what you're doing in the world that reflects kindness.

43:41Because if it's one of your values, it's something you probably do every day. So are you kind at work? Are you kind at home? Where are you kind? I mean, don't give me these platitudes. Oh, kindness, peace, love, joy. Like, what are you doing to be more joyful? What are you doing to be more kind? What are you doing? What are you designing? And the outcome of which will be this value you hold. And when you hold yourself to that account, it's like it's pretty brutal. You realize you say a lot of stuff. She doesn't do it. And so bringing those two things together, bringing the intention and the action together, is what a designer does.

44:24It's like, okay, well, let's build something. If I build something in my life where kindness is part of what I do every day, then I don't have to think about it anymore. It's just my thing. And that might just be I go to work every day, and every day I spend an hour in the lunchroom with a friend, and I make sure I talk to all the different people that I know at the company. And I just listen because they need, I know everybody's really stressed and they just need someone to listen to them. And I'll be that person. And in the process of doing that, I'll build my compassion. And in the process of doing that, I'll be working on something bigger than myself.

45:00And it's got nothing to do with my job. My time is lunch, whenever I want. But you have to do something. My advisor at Stanford, I was the guy named Bob McKinley, who created the program. And he was a big one on sort of values clarification. You say you want to save the whales? What have you done this week to save the whales? Donate any money? Gone to any events? If you haven't done anything this week, you don't give a shit about the whales. Let's just be honest. You're just telling yourself a story to make yourself feel good. So when I talk about what's your story, I really want to know. What's your story?

45:33What do you do? and who are you in the world. And it doesn't have to be, I'm not thinking of it as a harsh thing. I'm just thinking of it as let's really talk about what makes you happy.

45:53And, you know, then let's design systems that create circumstances that will put you in that state more often than not. and then let's figure out what happens when you get angry when you get you know you get triggered when you get too tired when you get overloaded when you've spent too much time on social media too much time doing scrolling you know youtube clips or whatever and you you wake up you know you look up and you go what the hell happened you know to the hour and it's like okay that's unless unless that's something you really wanted to do probably it's just a habit you've fallen into And again, that's little systems of reward and punishment.

46:35We know how to make those apps really, really sticky and really, really interesting. But I asked my students, okay, just spend an hour on your Instagram account. Tell me three things you remember. And they don't remember anything. It was just pictures going by. So we have to, you know, in this modern society with all the distractions, Everybody wants your attention. I'm telling you, your attention is all you got. What you pay attention to is your reality. Pay attention to positive. One of the earliest findings of the positive psychologists was, if you do a gratitude journal, if you had every day, at the end of every day, you write down one thing you were grateful for, that in six to eight weeks you will notice that your brain has changed and now you're starting to see good things instead of bad things.

47:27Very simple, well-repeated, simple study. What you pay attention to is your reality. If you pay attention to conspiracy theories, that's your reality. If you pay attention to stories of compassion and joy and people helping others, then that becomes your reality. It's really up to you. It's true that stories of conflict, stories of disaster, stories of crazy suffering or absurd things,

48:08they light up more circuits in your brain. They're more agitating than other things. But that doesn't mean they're good for you, right? I mean, we are incredibly lucky and incredibly privileged. which nobody's shooting at us. This isn't the Ukraine. This isn't Gazbo. This isn't a lot of places in the world, where you don't really get a chance to pay too much attention to anything other than protecting yourself and trying to stay alive. We are in a different situation, and again, quite privileged to be able to kind of pick and choose what we think is important. And I think that's – so let's take advantage of that.

48:48I mean, both be aware that it's a great privilege and then take advantage of it. And don't squander it on stuff that just isn't, you know, that isn't. It's like, you know, I don't eat junk food. I don't eat junk food. I was traveling and I was in the Far East for a while. And after a while, you know, it's just like, I think I'll get a McDonald's hamburger. Because at least it's a McDonald's hamburger and it's not some weird, you know, weird spicy Asian Thai thing that I probably, you know, I just wanted something familiar. And I just felt afterwards, I just, and you know, the thing about a McDonald's hamburger is it tastes the same everywhere in the world, pretty much.

49:31Except it also is like, man, then I felt really bad. It's my stomach. You know, like, eat junk food. You just know it's not good for you. But every once in a while you remind yourself, yeah, junk food's not good for you. But man, there's so much junk food in our environment. so much information junk food social junk food i mean you know be entertained watch funny you know youtube stuff whatever but you just got to keep the junk food you know diet under control absolutely while being on your journey and working books and teaching your class how have you integrated the meaning into your life and how have you made this meaning to be sustainable and instead of just integrating it once how do you actually have this in your life long term yeah so when david and i first started this class i said listen we have to do everything we have to do we have to do a lot of things we have to do energy balance we got to do all this stuff because otherwise you know you're kind of the biggest hypocrite in the world saying hey this stuff really is good for you but you don't do it yourself so so one you know i do everything that i ask the students to do and because the lab has um lab fellows who come in for two years and they teach the classes with me and they also build new curriculum and stuff every time the lab fellows leave we do an exercise together you know to sort of help them get get ready to go and so um you You know, I've done everything that's in any of the books, and particularly in the last book, The Meaningful Life.

51:10I tried to get a mindfulness practice going. It didn't work. I wrote about how hard that was. It didn't work. And then the notion that we ended up with in the book, that it's actually easier than that. You don't need all these other practices. You don't need to cram your life with a whole bunch of new things. It's just, you know, it's not about getting, cramming more into it. It's about getting more out of what you've already got. So I'm spending a lot of time just trying to be present in my world and noticing the things that are wonderful and wondrous and being grateful. And then trying to figure out how to take the work we're doing.

51:50That's transcending myself. We've now taught over 700 other universities to teach the class. we're at a we got an institute uh up in in singapore that's doing all of asia and stuff so it's now just um how to best serve this work before i you know fade away uh and that's that's what keeps me honest i guess um and then and then you know when we try stuff and the students go yeah this is really boring or it didn't work or we didn't do the assignment then we go, all right, we've got to fix it. We've got to make it more engaging. People are learning differently now. I think you might have even noticed this yourself.

52:32So you had your first AI in high school, right? Yeah. I'm talking to seniors. I was talking to seniors last year. They didn't have AI until they were freshmen. But if you were a freshman or a sophomore the last couple of years, you had AI in high school. Now, in a couple more years, the new freshmen will have had AI since middle school. So it's like just the way they think, right? Which means you're learning differently. You're absorbing and integrating information differently and using an AI and some agents to kind of either support that or augment that or substitute that or whatever. So I'm constantly trying to figure out how do we, I mean, I'm not teaching the same way I was teaching 10 years ago.

53:13I'm not teaching the same way I was teaching 20 years ago because you guys keep changing. And the way you learn keeps changing. Same material. I mean, you still need to learn empathy and how to do a good interview. You still need to learn these things. But I got to learn them by looking at slides. So we're constantly trying to update what we do and keep it honest. And I get that by just getting feedback from the students, like what works and what doesn't. I love that you're changing and evolving your class as time goes by. What are you excited about looking forward? What's coming? What are you working on?

53:55Well, we are, you know, I mean, AI is obviously, you know, that cat's out of the bag. That horse has left the barn. So we built a couple of three or four new, three or four ways of doing what we used to do before, which is kind of hard to learn and using AI to give students lots and lots of repetitions and patterns because some of, for instance, aesthetics is difficult to learn. What makes something beautiful? What's a balanced composition? What's an unbalanced composition? The way you used to learn it in the old days is, you know, you just had a bunch of classes and you watched a bunch of different things and the professor broke it down for you.

54:31And so you hopefully over time developed a bunch of patterns you could match when you saw a new situation. You could say, oh, that's balanced except for this issue, or that's beautiful except for this problem, or that's coherent except for the part, the bottom doesn't look like the top. That's hard. And it took a lot of hours, and it took a lot of patterns. And so it's really good at showing you lots and lots and lots of patterns. So we're doing that with framing and reframing. We're doing that with networking. How do you network? Because that's one of the primary ways you learn to prototype is by talking to people.

55:06so that's interesting but I think it's going to be a bigger thing one of the things, I did some research with students, I sent some students out to talk to students about how they were using AI because I knew they would tell each other that, they probably wouldn't tell me exactly what they were doing one of the things that came up, and this has come up in also other research just globally is that a lot of people now particularly the younger freshman students coming in, high school students are talking about AI as a friend, as a person, kind of a confidant, a person they can talk to, even though they know it's not a person and it's not actually emotional.

55:45But it does a pretty good job of pretending to be the emotional friend that you want. And it's a nice friend, mostly, except in a few cases where it's convinced people to kill themselves. So it's not actually a friend, it's not actually a person, but this notion that it can be useful to talk about certain kinds of things that people say, well, I wouldn't even talk about that with my friend or my parents or I wouldn't talk about that with even a counselor. I'm not sure why they're willing to talk about those things with a computer, but they are. So I'm curious about the positive side of that is how could I use this notion of personas to help people examine more options.

56:36So let's say you're thinking, well, you know, we do three odysseys, and one is I'm going to be a lawyer like my mom wants me to be. The other one I'm going to just do, I'm going to do economics, and I'm going to go get a job at a think tank. And the third one is I'm going to be a dive instructor in Hawaii because that sounds like a lot of fun. Well, those are three options. But if I load your, and I've tried this, So I load my story, life view, and work view into an AI, give it some sense of what my values are all about, and say, generate some options for me in the world of education, in the world of, you know, hospitality, hotels, and things like that, and generate some options in the world of real estate, and generate some options in the world of wellness and health care.

57:24then it'll generate very rapidly five or six more odysseys and not that any of those are going to be what i do i'm just getting more patterns why do i like this one i don't like that one i asked for something in real estate and this looks really boring how could i what is it about either my quest my request thinking that real estate might be an interesting path versus the outcome which not only was boring but distasteful so if I could use if you had confidence that the AI knew at least a little bit about your personality and your ideas and your values it might be an interesting way to generate lots and lots and lots of patterns for options so that you don't end up just choosing between two majors and thinking that that was all you could do.

58:26And then don't worry about it because your major isn't going to matter anyway when you graduate. Yeah. Well, it's really interesting how you can actually explore these things without actually being a lawyer and going to Hawaii. And you can actually just get so many more possibilities and see. But you're also training your emotions because you see the plan and you go, oh, I really like that. Or boy, I really hate that. That's a terrible idea. Yeah. Or, oh, that's a terrible idea, but there's one thing about it I really like. And, again, you can't see yourself by yourself. It's great to have a conversation with somebody else who can sort of push you and pull you and really test your assumptions.

59:06And maybe that's a use case for an AI friend. I mean I just I don't think I can get away from teaching this way because I think it's the way people are going to be learning and so I want to figure out how to do that in a way that actually supports their learning, their growth, their humanity and normally I'd say come to office hours, let's have a conversation but everybody can't come to office hours right, so how do we reach more people you know it's interesting when we first when the book came out lots of colleges called us up and said hey can we teach the class and a lot of them are like you know they're harvard or yale or darbeth or something that's great but you know if you add up all the elite universities all the ivs and stanfords and stuff it's only about 250 000 kids the california community college system just the california community college system is 1.2 million The Cal State University system, the one just below the Berkeley, you know, Cal State system, 600 ,000 kids.

1:00:14I think Texas' community college system is 2 million kids. That's where all the students are. Those are the students I want to have office hours with. I can't have office hours with 2 million students. So how can we help them have the same advantage that you guys get in a class with 30 kids? and I got two instructors, me and one of my staff, and then I have like five coaches.

1:00:45So that's a pretty special experience. But, you know, you paid a lot of money for the school, so we ought to give you a special experience. But how do we get to the two million kids that are in community colleges? And they need the same help. And we've got some data from one of the Cal State systems, Cal State Dominguez Hills down in Compton, California. Dr. Heather Butler, she's one of the psych professors there. She took on the class seven, eight, ten years ago. And she does a lot of research. And she gets better results on GRIT and Martin Sullivan's PERMA scale and Angela Duckworth's growth mindset.

1:01:19She measures all these things before and after taking the class. She gets better results than I get. And our theory is her students are 80 % first gen, 85 % underrepresented minorities. 20 % below the poverty line. They don't have a parent they can ask, what school, what's college for? They don't have an uncle they can say, hey, can you help me get an internship? So they need, you know, they're trying to move from one economic situation to another through education, which is the brilliance of the American education system. And they need a framework. And we give them a framework that's really flexible and workable.

1:02:00so we think that's why you know even that it has nothing to do with with privilege or class or anything else it's like how do you think about your life what are your mindsets and how do you use that to navigate into an uncertain future in a way that's positive and generates more options everybody can generate more options i want the stuff that we're developing to be everywhere so That's my, whatever, my mission is to get it off campus and make sure that no matter where you grew up, no matter what your circumstances were, you can think like a designer. You can be curious. Last question here. You have so many exercises in your books that people can actually try and implement.

1:02:46If there's one thing you would recommend listeners to do after this episode, what would you recommend to them? Well, the big sort of capstone assignment is these three odysseys. But you can't just do that without a lot of preparation and stuff. So I'll take one from our last book, How to Live a Meaningful Life. And it's called Putting on Your Wonder Glasses. I don't have my wonder glasses handy here, but I've got a pair of really goofy glasses. But it's very simple. Take any experience. It's better if you sit outside in nature. Nature is full of all sorts of things that are kind of cool. But you can be almost anywhere.

1:03:20You can be sitting in your room. Just focus on one thing. Focus on something like a flower or something in your room that's interesting. And then just look at it the way you would normally look at it. Your regular glasses are just like, okay, it's a flower, it's red, it's in the vase. The vase is full of water, it's green, makes the red look good. I'm just looking at it with my practical glasses. Now put on your curiosity glasses. Okay, now different questions. well, whoa, the flower's in the vase, it's in water. It's starting to droop a little. I wonder what's going on. Like, I remember I was told you're supposed to cut the edge off the bottom so that the capillaries are fresh, so the water gets up there.

1:04:05Maybe that's what's going on. But the red, which was sort of pink yesterday, it's really red today. I wonder why the pigment is changing, even though it's not connected to the flower anymore. and then this face is green, but it's kind of translucent green. I'm just noticing the glass is a little different. It's so you can see the light coming through it. And I can almost see, you know, so curiosity. Just keep asking questions. Now, put on your wonder glasses, the last step.

1:04:39Look at this red flower.

1:04:43It's effing amazing. I have no idea what makes it that red but when you turn around and you look down into the flower you know as the petals are moving around and in the middle I think there's this stamen and all that stuff that I learned in ninth grade biology but forgetting the names of those things look how beautiful this is and how amazing if you just pay attention to this red in this moment it's it's got to blow your mind like how is it possible that a seed, some dirt a little bit of water all this biomass jumps out of the ground ends up creating this flower which I know is supposed to attract bees or whatever but isn't it interesting and amazing that we evolved to see something this beautiful And so when you move from curiosity to wonder, it's moving from sort of questions to sort of deeply felt observations.

1:05:55So try that. Just take anything you want. Go outside, sit in the nature, whatever you want to do in nature. It's kind of cool because it's full of stuff that's interesting. Just first look at it, regular glasses. Curiosity glasses. I wonder, ask a lot of questions. How did this happen? What does this mean? and then put on your wonder glasses as the third step. Now that you've excited your curiosity about whatever it is you're paying attention to, really go deep in just the sensory nature of the thing, the color, the texture, the smell, the sound, whatever it is. And Arthur Miller, the playwright, said, I can turn anything, even a blade of grass, into the most amazing and wondrous thing in the world.

1:06:38I've tried this experiment a thousand times. It's never failed. And that's where we got this idea. like it's right there in front of you you've been walking past it every day and if you just stop a second and go wow look at that thing you'll have a little moment in your day that that drops all the other stuff the fear the the anxiousness that i'm late for the train whatever it is it'll all compress down to one little moment and you find meaning isn't found in the giant meaning is found in moments and you become a moment designer and you just designed one and then you go on your way to do whatever you were going to do and it's kind of special and you know and there's a bunch of neuroscience about why you now feel better and there's dopamine in your brain and it's been running around and your respiration dropped and all these other biological things happened just because you decided to attend to something wondrous.

1:07:49That sounds absolutely wonderful and I'm so excited for us all to have more wonder in our life. Thank you so much for being on the podcast and I'm very excited to continue following your work and learning from what you're doing. Well, thanks for having me on and I hope to see you in class someday. Thank you.