Busting Nutrition Myths with Jessica Knurick

22:26Yeah, I mean, I always try to just talk about the nutrient quality of the food. Right. So so look for foods that are higher in protein, higher in fiber, lower in added sugar. Right. So so looking at those types of foods that that you can make better choices, because a lot of the reason the reason we have so many ultra processed foods is because we have a food environment that relies on these prepackaged foods that have to travel far that have to sit on shelves. And so, you know, we've gotten away in this country from like local foods quite a bit. And so that's why, you know, up to, by some estimates, 70 % of our food environment are these ultra-processed foods.

23:02And so now, if you're telling people you shouldn't eat any ultra-processed foods, it just loses kind of the nutritional meaning of the term. So it's sort of like this, like there are people, if it's natural, it's healthy. Well, arsenic is natural. Right. No one's going, bro, you've got to try this organic arsenic. Right. It's organic arsenic. Yeah. Oh, please, you don't want to go just regular arsenic. Stepping back from the arsenic for a moment. For a moment. You go online, there is protein, protein, must have raw meat, this, this, this. Why all of a sudden has protein become? It feels very faddish, actually.

23:37What's driven that? Is there a... Fad and nutrition? That never happens. No, exactly. So is there strength behind this or is this just, it's the next fashion statement, I'm wearing a suit made of prime rib?

23:51Neil deGrasse Tyson:And why is your field so fad susceptible? I think because we all eat at least three times a day. And so it's always on our mind, right? Like not everyone's thinking about astrophysics, but people are always thinking. Excuse me. Excuse me. Wow. I mean, I have you. Five minutes in, she's slamming the host. Blood drawn. This is great. I'm not. No, she's right. She's right. I mean. You know what you need? You need a crookie. That was awesome. Because what I heard was that people who are on the GLP, one, it diminishes the food fog that we might live in, where you're always thinking about, when is my next meal?

24:27Neil deGrasse Tyson:What am I going to have? And so I agree. It diminishes appetite. Yeah, just the total immersion, especially in this country where there's no shortage of food everywhere. Yeah, everywhere. That it's just people probably, I will concede, think more about food than about astrophysics. Okay, so pick it up from there. Go ahead. Yeah, so I mean, if you're constantly thinking about it, and food, by the way, is not just nutrition. That's how I think about it as a nutrition scientist, but it's also culture, and it's also how people show love and it also, it's integrated in our lives. And so people are constantly thinking about it.

25:00And so I think it's very susceptible to these fads because particularly with social media, people like kind of scary claims, things that are gonna be very eye-catching. And so people, clickbaits. And so people will do that on social media and it's of interest to people because they're thinking about food and they wanna be healthier. and so I think that that's why it's so susceptible. So pick up the protein angles now. In terms of that, studies show most people are getting adequate amounts of protein from red meat and isn't this sort of more of a marketing story than anything else? Yeah, I think right now what we're seeing is a fad with protein.

25:37I think if you look at all of the data sets from NHANES and other data sets, it shows that most Americans on average are getting adequate amounts of protein. Some demographics...

25:48Neil deGrasse Tyson:Be it from red meat or anywhere else. Yeah. That's not the sole source of protein. From anywhere else and probably over-consuming red meat, to be honest. Is this driven by the manosphere and the bros you just want to bulk up, make the muscle happen? Yeah, I think a large part of it on social media is certainly driven by, you know, this carnivore movement and, yes, the manosphere, as you say. I think also you have to think about, in terms of protein, what types of protein you're getting. And there's certain demographics that are maybe a bit deficient in protein. You know, older adults we tend to see could use a bit more protein.

26:23People recovering from injuries or surgery could use a bit more protein.

26:26Neil deGrasse Tyson:And under-informed vegetarians, too. Under-informed, like, yes. Because if you're going to follow, like, a vegan diet, you certainly can get enough protein and adequate protein. But it takes a bit more, like, knowledge in terms of what sources you're getting that food from. And so those specific demographics we're looking at. But on average, Americans get adequate protein. So then the question, touching the manosphere, if necessary, there's what the nutritionist would say is the right amount of protein. If I give myself more than that, what happens to my body? Well, it depends how much. Obviously, anything, if you're consuming, over-consuming anything, it can be detrimental.

27:03But most people aren't over-consuming protein and could probably, you know, they just raised the, like, recommended amount of protein in the latest dietary guidelines. And that falls in line with research. Like, there's not a huge, like, concern there for the average American, but it is a bit higher than what we've recommended in the past.

27:23Neil deGrasse Tyson:No, but if you get more, does that make my muscles bigger? I mean, what are people getting out of exceeding the recommended dose of protein in a day? What are they getting out of it? It depends on the rest of your diet, but they're just over-consuming calories at that point. So there's a limit to what— If you're doing resistance training and then adding the protein— And my muscles have to rebuild. I need more protein than your normal amount in order to bulk up? Is that correct? Yeah, if you're physically active and you're doing a lot of weightlifting, you are probably going to want a bit more protein.

27:55And is physically active picking up a remote control? I'm just curious. It can be. It can be.

28:00Neil deGrasse Tyson:Depends how many times you pick it up. It depends on how much your remote control weighs. That would probably not necessitate more protein, though. If you glued your remote control to the barbell, yeah. Which I have. Makes sense. All right, going back into something you just said a little while ago about the layers of different processed and ultra-processed foods. Are we into that food pyramid? Because I thought, like the pharaohs, we'd got rid of that some time ago. But it's back? What sort of, is it inverted? And it's been flipped. Wait, the pharaohs had a food pyramid? I didn't know. Oh, they just had pyramids.

28:33Neil deGrasse Tyson:There you go. Okay. Yeah, I heard someone call it the new pyramid a food tornado because it's a flipped pyramid. Oh, okay. So they flipped it. I grew up, there was no food pyramid. That's how old I am. Then they put in a food pyramid. Yeah. And I found it confusing because the top of a pyramid, that's the pinnacle. Right. And there was like red meat at the top of their pyramid. And at the bottom, I don't care about the bottom of a pyramid, that was oats and grains and things. So the message to me felt a little weird. It was sponsored by the cattle farmers. By how I look at a pyramid, that food pyramid versus how I think about pyramids.

29:07Neil deGrasse Tyson:So there's a new pyramid today. When did that come out? Nobody told me. Yeah, so it's the dietary guidelines. So the pyramid is the visual representation of the guidelines. So the first food pyramid came out in the early 90s, which is funny that you say that because I was in elementary school when the food pyramid was out. And so that makes sense to me as a pyramid, that the smallest amount means eat sparingly because that's how I learned it. To me, that's like the most cherished amount right at the top. I have a completely different sense of it. And he dresses as a pharaoh when he eats, which is a totally weird thing when you go out to dinner with him.

29:41It's very awkward. Walk like an Egyptian. Oh, no, you did the dance. I had to do it. He does it in every restaurant. So we have dietary guidelines that come out every five years. That's mandated. It's a group of scientists that get together. They work on a scientific report for two years, and then they present it to the USDA and HHS. And then we have new dietary guidelines that come out. So, and the -

30:02Neil deGrasse Tyson:U.S. Department of Agriculture. Yes. And Health and Human Services. Yes. Gotcha. So those two departments kind of work on it together. And there's always a visual representation of the dietary guidelines. The original one was the food pyramid. In 2005, that changed to something called My Pyramid that no one knows about, but it was a very confusing pyramid, even more confusing than the first one. And then in 2011, under the Obama administration, we got MyPlate. And so that was a plate that had half your plate, fruits and vegetables, a grains group, a protein group, and then milk. So that kind of feels very doable.

30:36Neil deGrasse Tyson:It feels intuitive because that's how you eat. Exactly. Yes. And as someone who taught nutrition. It's a pie chart. It's easy to teach, too. Except it's not a pie. It's just a chart. Yeah, don't say pie. It's fruits and vegetables. Fruits and vegetable pie chart.

30:53Brussels sprouts pie. Sounds delicious.

30:57Neil deGrasse Tyson:Oh, man. So we've had that since 2011. And that seems like a sensible graphic. It was sensible. It was quite sensible. And what was that? Tell me. How were those angles? It was half fruits and vegetables, and then a quarter grains, a quarter protein, and then dairy, and then a fork. That was the visual representation. So we had that. Dairy was separate from the circle? Yeah, it was like a cup of milk. A cup of milk. Okay. It just kind of showed. Dairy lobby got in there. Yes, it did. And so again, this is a visual representation of the dietary guidelines. So you have dietary guidelines. And feels very, very easily interpretable.

31:35Yes. And as someone who taught nutrition, it was easy to teach, right? To kind of show you a plate. It was intuitive for people. So in 2026, the new dietary guidelines came out and they changed that. So we no longer use my plate this year. And now we have a reverse pyramid. So the top is the biggest part and the bottom is the smallest part.

31:55Neil deGrasse Tyson:And what's happening there? And so what they did, it's very interesting. If you go and you read the dietary guidelines, the actual guidelines themselves aren't all that different than our previous version of the dietary guidelines, which had my plate as the visual. And so they say to get a variety of proteins from plant and animal sources. They keep saturated fat to less than 10 % of calories. They say to limit added sugar. So a lot of very similar things. but the visual representation is very different. And so if you compare my plate to the new pyramid, the new pyramid really only shows animal proteins.

32:30I mean, if you look at it, they have a couple of beans, I think. It's just kind of a bunch of foods on the pyramid. And animal proteins are very visible at the very top and then also vegetables at the top.

32:43Neil deGrasse Tyson:It's the top of an inverted pyramid. It's the top of an inverted pyramid. So now you're talking about the widest part of the pyramid. But they're promoting much more animal protein over plant-based, and it sort of almost makes it feel like what they're telling you is that just go with natural anti-processing because nothing says healthy like steak and butter every day, right? So that's where the confusion comes in. Yeah, so many of the people who worked on these dietary guidelines have conflicts of interest with the beef or dairy industry, which is interesting. Wouldn't that have been true before?

33:14Yeah, so if you look before, this is kind of a narrative that has kind of always been present, like conflicts of interest with different industries, many different industries. But if you look at the previous scientific committee who worked on the dietary guidelines, they actually had very few conflicts of interest.

33:30Neil deGrasse Tyson:So I have a question. Who selects the scientists who are on these committees who make these recommendations? Yeah, so usually it's the current administration. And again, it's the USDA and HHS who kind of work on this together. So a committee of, it's about 20 scientists are usually chosen. And they're like - Why don't scientists choose themselves? Why is it connected into government agencies? Because they're government guidelines that will come out. And so it's an independent group that's chosen. And then they work again for like two years on a report, on a scientific report. So they look at all global nutrition science, and then they formulate kind of the scientific report that is meant to inform the dietary guidelines.

34:11And those people on that panel are all roided up guys who only eat meat. No. Not traditionally.

34:18Neil deGrasse Tyson:Yeah, but any bias among those scientists becomes a bias in the final recommendations, correct? I mean, I suppose if there is bias. The idea is that it's independent, that they're just looking at the science. Has that been maintained going forward? Yeah, so the scientific report is usually pretty unbiased. That comes out, but then what happens— Then it has to become policy. Then it has to become policy. Then it has to become the actual guidelines. Okay, so what's happened lately? So between, well, this is traditionally how it's always worked. So the scientific committee will submit the report.

34:51And then there's this period of time, usually like a year, where they will take the scientific report and then they will create the dietary guidelines. And in between those two things happening, there's usually a lot of lobbying that happens by the beef and dairy industry and the corporate food industry. And so they sometimes will water down language. I don't think there's a lot of examples where they actually completely changed the guidelines previously. It's more like the foods that they tell you to eat, they'll talk in our language that we speak, like foods. And then the foods they tell you not to eat, they'll change it to like nutrients that we don't really think about, right?

35:24So like eat less saturated fat instead of eat less meat, those types of things. So some of that can happen. But then it's promoting foods that are high in saturated fat. So this is where it puts a lot of focus on what to avoid but not much clarity on what to prioritize, which is great because nothing helps people eat better than being stressed out about what you eat. You just end up standing over the sink stress eating because I'm not sure if I should be. I need a crookie. Well, in these guidelines, the problem with these guidelines right now is that, as you say, meat is very present on the visual representation and in the lexicon.

36:05and how we're talking about it. And when you look at the actual guidelines, they actually keep the recommendation to keep saturated fat less than 10%. And it's virtually impossible to eat most of your protein from animal meats and keep saturated fat less than 10%. So the visual representation is very confusing because it's very difficult, even as a nutrition professional, to devise a diet that actually follows all of those. That confusion is intentional. Yeah. It's a misdirection. So what is going on there? why would they intentionally want to confuse people on that issue? I mean, I can only hypothesize that it's because if you look at the scientific evidence, you look at global nutrition research, there's no scientific rationale for increasing to recommend more saturated fat.

36:52The recommendation of less than 10 % is globally recommended, and that's in line with scientific evidence.

36:59Neil deGrasse Tyson:Just to be clear, it's 10 % of your calories? 10 % of total calories. but they want to be promoting more meat, right? I mean, some of the people leading our agencies have identified as carnivore people and so it's kind of an ideology. So it's ideology overriding scientific evidence, essentially. And they're clashing. And maybe the strength of the lobby is the strength of the lobby. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think now that you mentioned it, I have seen this inverted pyramid and I didn't know what to make of it. I mean, it looked like just shells. Didn't you try to eat it because you thought it was a piece of pie?

37:32Neil deGrasse Tyson:No, it just looked like shelving, right? And it looked like a picture with food on shelves. Well, that was the original pyramid. The original pyramid had those. But the inverted one, I feel the same way. The inverted one is just a bunch of foods thrown on, like on clip art. Yeah, oh, yes, yes, clip art. On a triangle. Yes, it's clip art. Yeah. So I don't, you know, I can't. They've invested so much time and effort in that, haven't they? Just clip art. I was so confused because it really looks like 1990s clip art. Oh, God. Yeah, I just, I like the pie plate, even though it's not a pie. Yeah. Only because there's still a little bit of math in there, because you're communicating angular fractions on a circle.

38:13It's true. Whereas just clip art pastiched onto a surface.

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40:38we've discussed what can and cannot and maybe the biases and the carnivores are ruling the earth what about the police lineup and the villains who's in this lineup i'll start you off with seed oils okay kind of go for oh don't get me going about seed oil here we go maybe that would

40:54Neil deGrasse Tyson:be a trigger oh hold me back yeah so if we just get specific here that'd be fun to know yeah what the latest thinking is on all of this. Yeah. Seed oils are quite villainized right now. What's an example of a seed oil? A seed oil are oils that come from seeds. Sunflower oil, safflower oil. Canola. Canola oil, which is rape seed oil. Those types of oils are polyunsaturated fatty acids. Is this sesame oil? Mm-hmm. Sesame oil. Like toasted sesame oil, which I put on my fried rice? I can't use it. So what's wrong with that? There's nothing wrong with it. Well, you put toasted sesame oil? Oh, you have to as a last dressing on top.

41:28Neil deGrasse Tyson:Why don't you bring some in? So tell me, what has been the thinking about seed oils? Yeah. Yeah, so in nutrition science, the thinking has been that they're polyunsaturated fatty acids and they're healthful oils to include in your diet. So there's three different types of fatty acids that we eat. So you have saturated fats. If you let bacon grease sit, it hardens, right? Because usually animal fats are saturated fats. So they're hard at room temperature. So that's saturated fat. Then you have monounsaturated fats. Those are things like avocados, avocado oil, olive oil. Those are monounsaturated fats.

42:02And then you have polyunsaturated fats. And that chemically just means there's multiple places where you're missing a bond for a hydrogen bond.

42:12Neil deGrasse Tyson:Okay, and what's an example of that? Polyunsaturated would be seed oils. So regarding the seed oil, what is sort of the knock on it? And is there data that backs that up? Yeah, so in nutrition science, we have pretty strong data to show, again, global nutrition science data to show that diets that are relatively high in polyunsaturated fatty acids to saturated fats. So you're eating more monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids and less saturated fats are heart healthy, are more healthful dietary patterns. We see this in longitudinal epidemiological studies. So longitudinal is across populations?

42:49Yeah, so when you're looking at populations, like large populations over time, and you're looking at their dietary eating patterns, and then you're looking at health outcomes, that's what we tend to see. We see this in studies that replace saturated fats with polyunsaturated fats or monounsaturated fats. We see that improvement in health outcomes.

43:11Neil deGrasse Tyson:Everything you said sounds positive. So why would there be a resistance to seed oils? There tends to be this thing in nutrition where, and the way that misinformation spreads really quickly, is they take a mechanism of action and then they say that that's going to happen in a human model, which we know that that's not really the case. Most mechanisms, most hypotheses based off of mechanisms don't actually end up doing what we think they're going to do. So these are people who say that these are bad for you? Yeah. So what's a list of what's bad for you that they would claim? So seed oils are rich in polyunsaturated fatty acids, linoleic acid, alpha-linolenic acid.

43:50Linoleic acid converts to something called arachidonic acid, and arachidonic acid can be inflammatory. They can have pro-inflammatory markers. And so this is where this comes from. But the problem is, is that when you look at the conversion of linoleic acid to arachidonic acids, it doesn't convert effectively at all in the human body. it's less than 1 % usually closer to 0.1 % conversion and so if you're just looking at that conversion and saying well this can convert to this and this can cause inflammation that's where that comes from and it sounds sciencey and it sounds like they know what they're talking about except for when you actually look at it in a human it doesn't pan out and we actually see the exact opposite which happens all the time in science.

44:31But what is the motivation for doing that for taking that leap to push people to think a certain way about something when the data shows otherwise. And I know I'm asking you to sort of read tea leaves here, but you're the expert. Yeah, I mean, I think that it has to do with this anti-science movement that we're living in right now. I think it speaks to this idea of like, oh, the scientists are wrong. The government is wrong. They're lying to us because seed oils have been recommended because they're polyunsaturated fats and the science shows that they're quite healthful.

45:04Neil deGrasse Tyson:But it means you have counterparts online who would also be judged as influencers who people are listening to in this regard. So I now know nothing about anything, and I see you over here. Yeah, because if you've got a ring light, then you know everything. And the inflammation people over here, how am I going to decide? It's a good question. And I think as scientists, we've been failing. We've been losing that war. so to speak, because we haven't been going to spaces where people are to bring them information. For a long time, it's been quite frowned upon to go to social media or spaces where people are, and if you're an academic or if you're a scientist.

45:48And I think that's changing now because we're seeing how important it is, but I think we need more of it. And so we need more people to go and kind of explain the science because I'll be honest, even I, when I first got into this field, because this has been a narrative for a very long time that like seed oils are unhealthy. And so I just assumed that they were, I was like, yeah, seed oils are unhealthy. And then I learned kind of the science behind it and what the evidence actually shows. And I changed my mind and realized that they're not actually unhealthy. But a part of that comes from this idea that seed oils are cheap and they're flavorless relatively.

46:23And so they're in a lot of these low nutrient ultra processed foods. That's the oil that these food companies are using to put into all of these foods. And so we do tend to over-consume these oils.

46:35Neil deGrasse Tyson:So there's some guilt by association there. I believe so, because it's very easy to kind of villainize them because they're in all of these foods that we would recommend people to consume less of, right? Which is a very different way to consume them than if you're just doing what my mother-in-law does, who's from Romania, who just uses corn oil or seed oils in her stir fries, right? Or whatever food she's cooking, which we would argue is a healthful way to use those oils. But you could lead a horse to water, right, in terms of we make the argument here, educate people. But do they want to be educated on some level?

47:07Have they shut down? Because there's a movement out there. Canola oil is like uranium. Meanwhile, these same people are eating deep-fried cheeseburgers wrapped in donuts. And I know because I had six of them on the way here. You know what I mean? It becomes a larger question, I guess, beyond your expertise of just anybody's. It's like, what's going on in our society where people are just shutting down on full explanations on things? I think that we all kind of understand that we have an issue in our country with chronic disease, that we see chronic disease rates increasing, and we see more than half the country having some sort of chronic disease.

47:44And so we all kind of understand the issue. And I think when you can point to something like seed oils, then I think that that's easy for people to kind of understand. And they're like, yes, let's get the seed oils out. and it's an easy swap, right? So if you tell somebody, we can switch seed oils out and put beef tallow in and you can still eat fast food French fries and be fine, that's an easier sell for people than saying, hey, we should probably eat less French fries. And it doesn't really matter the fact. Is this the same thing with food dyes? They're not really creating chronic disease. There's other things that are doing that, but there's a war on food dyes.

48:18I mean, probably not a great idea to give your child lots of bright, colorful candy. and because as a parent, you're probably not going to like the results. But I just think, are the attacks on certain food groups or supplements just misguided when there should be other areas that need to be focused upon? Yeah, I think food dyes is a really good other example. So these synthetic food dyes that we have, we have five of them that are really prevalent in the food supply. So red 40, blue 1, blue 2, yellow 5, and yellow 6. Those are the five. They've all been deemed safe by the FDA. They've all been deemed safe by EFSA in the European Union.

48:54They've all been deemed safe in Australia. They've all been deemed safe in Canada. I think that's a big misconception, and that might come as a surprise to some people because there's a lot of narrative out on social media that other countries have banned them.

49:06Neil deGrasse Tyson:There are other foods that are touted, and as a scientist, I tilt my head and I say, huh? You know, nowadays, you know you're earning too much money when on your shelf you have four different kinds of salt. Okay. So what does a nutritionist say about the various kinds of salt that are available? Because, you know, a chemist would say it's sodium chloride, but a nutritionist would have to say something about the color and the Himalayan air in which it was crystallized. It was brought down a mountain by sheep. Yes. Yes, or alpacas. Yes, alpacas. I don't know if there's sheep in the Himalayas. Just play along, buddy.

49:50Neil deGrasse Tyson:You can't just play along, can you? Get the species of animal right for the part of the world. Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, salt is salt, right? So salt is going to enact the same things in your body as any kind of salt. So pink Himalayan sea salt or sodium chloride, the white iodized salt. I think where a lot of these new salts come from is this idea because we fortify salt in our country with iodine and to help reduce risk of goiters, which has been extremely effective, an extremely effective public health kind of movement. So there's some health kick movements that are just based on belief systems rather than on scientific evidence, it sounds.

50:29Many. Yeah, many on social media are based on belief systems. Many. Or fallacies, like the naturalistic fallacy.

50:36Neil deGrasse Tyson:Right. That'd be like raw milk or something like that. Yeah. What about the raw movement? Yeah. Tell me about raw milk. Yeah, I think this, again, kind of is this idea that natural is better, right? So milk comes naturally raw. Coming out of the udder, I would suspect. Yes. It's processed by mammary glands. Correct. I also learned that there's a misconception. It's cool to have this social media following that I have because I can interact with a lot of people. And so I found that there was a big misconception of what pasteurization is. Many people thought that we were adding chemicals to milk in the pasteurization process.

51:12And they didn't realize that it's literally just heating milk.

51:14Neil deGrasse Tyson:These are people who didn't pay attention in middle school when you learn about this. Yeah, I can't imagine why they would get bored by pasteurization at the age of 12. So that's interesting. They thought it's an additive. Yeah, so I made a video about how it's just, you know, there's a couple types of pasteurizing. pasteurizing, but the most common one is heating milk to about 165 degrees Fahrenheit for 15 seconds and then rapidly cooling it. And that's it. And that's the temperature of most people's morning coffee. Right. Not even boiling. Not even. Not even. Yeah. And so it's, and it kills pathogens and it makes your milk safer.

51:47And it doesn't meaningfully change the nutritional content of the milk. And so, you know, I think when people learned this, they, they, some people were more accepting of pasteurization. So again, knowledge is power, right? We can. So when they're advocating raw milk is more natural are they really saying they're accepting a higher risk of known pathogens for the benefit that hasn't been clearly demonstrated in data yet? I think that's correct.

52:11Neil deGrasse Tyson:True fact. True that. I've got to hear you say that. Say true that. True that. That was good. That was awesome. That was not a Colorado true that. My girl's been up in the hood a few times. She's another side to her. So if they believe in this raw milk thing, it just sounds like a herd looking for a shepherd. Exactly. That's exactly right. I mean, they say it's ruining milk. Yeah, well, I mean, but there are pathogens. It's ruining milk like the way the 19th century tradition of dying from E. coli got ruined. Like that's what you want. You want to sort of eliminate those problems, right? Yeah, I mean, this is kind of a larger issue of what we're seeing right now in terms of like attacks on public health interventions that we know have worked.

52:57And we forget the years before the public health interventions were implemented.

53:02Neil deGrasse Tyson:Is it because it's so effective? It's a victim of its own success? It's a victim of its own success. Just like vaccines, just like food fortification, just like pasteurization. Okay, so what do we do about this? Because there are people who turn to government for their guidance more than they might turn to scientists. or even so there might be people who turn to online scientists who are either charlatans or are lone wolves in their view relative to scientific consensus. In your attempts, efforts to reach people, are they responsive when you say this is the scientific consensus? Because I know some people say it's not the consensus.

53:42Neil deGrasse Tyson:Is this one person who says the consensus is wrong? They must be right. Because if you interact with your followers, where are they before they arrive at your corner of the block? I think a lot of people arrive confused because they hear one person saying one thing, another person saying another thing. Even with pedigree, that person might even have pedigree. Yeah, which makes it more insidious and more dangerous because then they have that perceived authority. And so what I've tried to do and what I've realized is a lot of people don't know what scientific consensus means. And so trying to explain the difference between just me telling you, don't listen to me because I'm telling you and I have a PhD.

54:18Like I'm going to give you information and then you go look if that's actually accurate and I'll give you the places to go look and understanding what scientific consensus is. So in nutrition, especially because nutrition science is like a baby science. And so, you know, relative to other sciences out there. And so a study can come out and it can say something completely different than than what the consensus says. But that's a single study. And so if you just cherry pick that study, right, which people, that's a big thing, cherry picking studies, you take that one study. Especially if it resonates with a preexisting meaning that you have to confirm a bias.

54:54Yes. Then you're like, that study says this. But what do the 72 other studies say that have also looked at this question and are kind of going in this direction? That's an outlier study, right? So we have to look at everything together. And that's what consensus does. So when you look at some of these medical organizations or these scientific organizations, that's what they're looking at. They're looking at the thousand studies that have been published in this area, not just one. And then one new study may be published and it may be very interesting and it may lead us down another path. But that one study is not going to refute consensus unless we build upon that and we see more and more studies come out.

55:29Are you finding that this guided discovery approach for an audience is better than you're wrong? Oh, yes. Yeah. I don't think that people respond well to your wrong traditionally.

55:41Neil deGrasse Tyson:So I posted a little explainer video attempting, however feebly, to guide people how, when, and where they can find objectively true information on the Internet or to have the highest chance of it being objectively true. And one of them was websites that are either academic, so.edu or.org, provided it's not a lobbying group, tend to have more reliable information than just somebody's fly-by-night blog. And at the time, this was like days before things changed, I said.gov sites tend to be honest and accurate. And then like a week later, the CDC changed their vaccine guidelines on their website.

56:30Neil deGrasse Tyson:And it was like, damn. And so what's a person to do at this point? Other than just tune into you, maybe that's all they should do. That's it. That's it. Just follow me. You landed there. You landed there. I'm gonna make a motion that we get rid of the CDC and replace it with you. Yeah. Don't do that. But yeah, I think we're living in a really tough time right now when we're seeing medical organizations combat what the CDC is saying, which we never, which never happens. Never, ever. Like I think people need to really understand how unprecedented that is. And so what I would recommend is kind of look at global scientific consensus.

57:12So look at kind of these global organizations, look at these medical organizations, you know, like the AAP, which is the American Academy of Pediatrics or ACOG, which is for gynecology, gynecologists and obstetrics. Look at these different medical organizations, see what they're putting out, which is difficult when you're just one person to kind of like go to all these different areas. So I understand that it's not the greatest kind of solution at this time, but we are seeing—

57:39Neil deGrasse Tyson:There may be no other path. We are seeing misinformation coming out of our government websites right now. This goes back to someone wanting the quick fix. They want a one-stop shop, give me all the solutions I care about. And that's how people are preying on it. The simplicity of it is dangerous, right? If you take a 30 ,000-foot view of the nutrition discussion, It's let's go back to the old days. Let's do red meat and raw milk and not processed foods. Well, you know, the old days you died at 42. So maybe we rethink that a little bit, right? And that's where people sort of miss that step, I think.

58:11Neil deGrasse Tyson:I kind of felt the same way about the paleo diet. Yeah. You know, let's eat the way cavemen did. Right. Yeah, and die at 30, you know. Right. Really? With a spear in your back? Doing bad art on a wall? You know, that's not good art. It's a guy who's a caveman who drew something and it's not good. Can I share with you my own nutrition guideline? Sure. Here we go. I eat whatever the hell I want and I exercise for health. And if I judge that my vitamins were not quite complete that day, I'll take a vitamin supplement. That's how I live because I like food. How do you judge if you're vitamin supplement?

58:47Neil deGrasse Tyson:I know vitamin contents of all the foods. Oh, okay. I'm very knowledgeable. He's a scientist. I'm very You literally You'll read it I read nutritional labels You know protein Carbohydrates Fat And I know How my metabolism does it But I eat For pleasure And I exercise for health And which of these two I know you'll probably say both But I know When I'm exercising Oh my gosh I'm king of the world I never feel that way After I eat kale Yeah I'm sorry I'm being honest with you But you do after Cheetos Come on Oh, Cheetos. The Cheeto high, nothing like it. So no, whatever I just told you notwithstanding, what's your advice going forward here?

59:29Yeah, I mean, exercise is great. So keep exercising. I think that it's really important to understand in nutrition science that the basis of nutrition science, like the basis of what we would explain to you as a healthful dietary eating pattern is pretty unchanged for over the last many decades. And so for how much we always are like, oh, nutrition's so confusing. It's always changing. It's actually not. Just the discourse about it is constantly changing because people are trying to manipulate the narrative. And so if you're thinking about a healthy dietary eating pattern, center your diet on plants, fruits, vegetables, whole grains.

1:00:06Get a variety of protein from animal and plant-based sources. Eat as many kind of like whole nutrient-dense foods as possible and limit kind of these low-nutrient ultra-processed foods. But again, there's some variability in that definition. And so that's why I kind of say low nutrient ultra-processed foods. And kind of understand that there's not a lot, all the sensational claims about nutrition. It's usually someone who's trying to sell you something on the back end of those sensational claims. There you go. And so if you can kind of avoid getting down that path. So like if a video starts and says, are you poisoning your kids?

1:00:41That's not going to be good information. That person is not going to give you. I'm selling liver enhancement pills on my website. There is going to be a list of supplements to sell you in the link in the bio, almost certainly. And so just kind of look for those things that people are doing on social media to kind of get your attention and then sell you something on the back end. And understand that from a nutrition perspective, it's pretty boring. It's pretty not that complex of what we would say is a healthful dietary eating pattern.

1:01:09Neil deGrasse Tyson:And how do we find you online? I'm on Instagram. Is that your biggest exposure to your following? Yeah, Instagram. And you have a sub stack. And I have a sub stack that I publish. And I don't know if you feel, I feel like we bonded. Could I get a free nutrition plan from you? Like, I don't want to be charged. Sure. Eat more fruits and vegetables. Wow. There it is. All right. And it's free. Pretty much it. You got what you paid for. So when is your sub stack becoming a book? It's a ways out yet. So the hope is early 2027. Okay. Yeah. My gosh. All right. We'll look for you. and maybe get your back.

1:01:45Neil deGrasse Tyson:Yeah. We'll talk about the book. That'd be great, yeah. All right. Maybe bring a little food next time. Yeah. Just a little snack for us. Didn't you tell me I brought Twinkies? You started this with me. You're sounding bitter now after your free food plan. Well, I got my free nutrition plan. And a pizza, a pepperoni pizza. Yeah, right. Me and pepperoni go way back. So thank you for joining us here on StarTalk. Thank you so much for having me. And enlightening our StarTalk special edition audience. Gary, always good to have you. Pleasure. and Paul always good to have you and you have the title Baron yes I was knighted in this room yes I have to we have to work on that yes please we'll get that going I don't see a red carpet anywhere it's very upsetting that's fine alright this has been StarTalk Special Edition the Nutrition Edition ooh see what I did there yeah that was clever rolls right off the tongue until next time Neil deGrasse Tyson here keep looking up

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