Cosmic Queries – Get Some Space

0:00Hey, StarTalkians, Neil here. You're about to listen to an episode specially drawn from our archives to serve your cosmic curiosities. Check it out. Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. This is StarTalk. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. And for this edition of StarTalk, it will be Cosmic Queries. I think it's a grab bag edition, but I got to check with my co-host, Chuck. Nice, Chuck. Yes, what's up, Neil? And you are correct, sir. So the first query has been answered. First query is what are the queries about?

0:51So what happens is we solicit, normally we solicit topics, But others sort of dribble in and they sort of collect with housekeeping, really, by getting, tending to the questions that are completely random, coming from every direction, every compass direction of the universe. Which is good, too, because people get very upset when their questions go unanswered, but they don't realize that when we're soliciting new questions, it's because it's a different topic, like you said. It's a different thing. Yeah, it's not like we can just continue. So yeah, you're right. This is a great way to do some housekeeping and make some people happy.

1:29So let's do this. Let's do this. All right. All right, let's jump right into this, of course. Give it to me. So let's start with a Patreon patron. This is Abdul Aziz bin Rajab. And he says, hey, quick question. What form or thing can sustain itself and not be destroyed by a black hole or what thing can sustain itself the most and to which degree would it be able to hold itself together when entering a black hole? So is there anything that can withstand the, oh, your term I'm about to use, is there anything that isn't spaghettified when it goes into a black hole? No. Ooh. Next question. No, so what happens, It's a very simple calculation.

2:23Normally when we think of materials, you know, we have eggs that'll break or steel that's strong or rubber that's flexible. So we have these sort of macroscopic descriptors for these things in our lives. When you analyze it at a molecular level, because that's all the black hole is going to care about, and then the atomic level, as you fall towards the black hole, what gets you is what are called the tidal forces. These are the forces that will stretch you head to toe as you fall in. Are you sure you want to go? That's the old rhyme I penned 30 years ago. But anyhow, so what's happening is the part of you that's closer to the black hole singularity feels a stronger gravity than the part of you that's farther.

3:10So in a feet-first dive, your feet will start falling towards the black hole, towards the singularity, faster than your head will. that's not a good situation to be in. It initially feels like a stretch. You know, who doesn't like a good stretch? But then you realize that it is unrelenting and growing. And it reaches a point where the tidal forces exceed the molecular bonds that hold your flesh together. Then you snap in two pieces, your upper half and your lower half of your body. But you might say, well, how about a brick of steel? Yeah, steel is held together more strongly than your body is, but there's still a breaking point for the atoms of steel, for the molecules that make up the steel.

3:58Sorry, the carbon, the iron, and all that comprise the alloy that is the steel. They're connected by some force, and you can calculate what that force is, and there's a distance from the center of the black hole where the tidal forces will be so great that it'll rip apart the molecules and the atoms of your solid block of steel. Yes, that'll happen closer in than what would rip you apart. Yes. But it'll still do it. It's still going to happen. It's still going to happen. Not only that, it'll rip the atoms themselves apart. Oh, snap. And the nuclei. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying.

4:30Oh, man. That's serious. That's evil. That's evil forces. So this is where gravity wins over atoms. Nice. So now let me just take Abdul's question and for my own edification, go a little further. So when you're looking at the creation of a supermassive black hole, when you get down to the place where it's the star that's dying is producing iron and now there's nothing that can happen after that. So it's like, OK, I'm going to collapse in on myself. Right. So now, okay, so now the iron is already there. What happens as these things, or whatever it is, whatever matter it may be, falls towards this singularity when it gets there?

5:26Is it infinitely compressed? Does it have like a core? does it, what is happening at that point since you have these streams of particles that are now just they're not even particles, they are just particles You say, where do they land? Yeah, where do they go? That's what I'm trying to figure out Where do they go? So the only way to find out, Chuck, is if we send you Report back Okay, report back So here's the problem Einstein's general theory of relativity which gives us the large scale structure of the universe and the Big Bang and black holes and the like, shows us that at the center of the black hole, the gravitational force exceeds everything molecular and atomic.

6:11And in fact, it compresses matter to a point of infinitely small size, which means it has infinite density. Right. Now, that's just crazy. That is crazy. I mean, that's inconceivable when I'm trying to think of it, but it can't. Maybe that doesn't happen. What I'm telling you is Einstein's general theory of relativity predicts that. So that could be the edge of where Einstein's relativity applies accurately to the universe. Maybe before it hits the singularity, some other law of physics needs to be invoked to extend our understanding of the universe beyond where Einstein then leaves us off. Okay?

6:55Newton left us off. Newton's forces operated under relatively low gravity and low speeds, and it failed at high gravity and high speeds. We needed Einstein to go into the dark closet of the unknown. But now we know in advance that general relativity has these limits. And so enter string theorists. They come in and talk about the singularity. They've got a whole mathematical formulism to think about the singularity. And so either it really is infinitely small and infinitely dense, or there's another branch of physics that still needs work, string theory still needs work, to give us an understanding of that particular regime in the cosmos.

7:41So, yeah, I can't – so the answer to that question is I don't have an answer. Right. Well, clearly no one does. What we do know, what we do know, he didn't ask this, but I will tell you. What we do know is that the, we used to think or hope that if you went into a black hole, it's a portal to another place, perhaps another dimension, another universe itself. Right. The problem is, it turns out the information that entered the black hole will ultimately come back out of that same black hole through Hawking radiation. The black hole will basically evaporate given enough time. It'll lose its mass through particles.

8:22And the inventory of those particles that came out equals the inventory of particles that went in, which tells us that you can't take stuff, put it through a black hole, and have it show up somewhere else. Wow, that makes perfect sense. It still remains in this universe. And it's a remarkable discovery of modern quantum physics and black holes. That's incredible. Yeah, that is an incredible— Yeah, so the evaporation of a black hole through Hawking radiation kind of lets you know that it's not going anywhere. It's actually coming back out. It's coming back out. It's coming back out. Wow. All right.

8:58So people, in case you didn't know what Hawking radiation is, you remember E equals MC squared. You'd learn this in elementary school. It's the equivalence of energy and mass. E equals M, energy and mass. And C squared is a constant. It's a speed of light. But it's actually not important about what I'm about to describe. So you can convert energy into mass and mass into energy. They're interchangeable. So it turns out in the vicinity of a black hole, the energy density of the gravitational field is so high that the energy will spontaneously create particle pairs. And it creates a matter and antimatter particle.

9:40One particle falls back into the black hole. The other escapes. And that's the slow evaporation. And that's the evaporation. And you take the inventory of those particles, and it is exactly what fell in and got spaghettified in the first place. That's amazing. Yeah. Oh, my God. Now, wait a minute. So it just dawned on me then. So what you just described, though, the information, you called it information, that means that there's a change of information then. Wait, wait, wait. Wait, just to be clear, what's for me mind-blowing is matter enters the black hole. Right. That's what I'm saying. Yeah.

10:17And then the black hole has gravity because of that matter. And the gravitational field, when it generates new particles, remembers the matter inventory of what fell into the black hole in the first place. Oh, my God. Yes. That's amazing. There is some communication in the system where the entire system remembers what matter it had eaten. It has to, because otherwise it wouldn't be able to create the... The same portfolio. Right, to put it off, to send it out. That's great. So for me, that was the most amazing fact about that discovery. And it's upsetting to science fiction folks, because you want to go into a black hole and come out somewhere else.

11:00Yes. So now you need some other way to leave the universe. Oh, wow. Okay. Hey, man, great question, Abdul. All right. How much? All right, let's see. Gosh, okay, here we go. Let's do - Was that only one question? We're almost out of time for this first segment. Ah, who cares? Who cares? It's good stuff. All right, go keep going. You know, it's just good stuff. Keep going. All right, here we go. This is Giannis Kiosas. Okay, I said your name wrong, man. Sorry. Giannis, though, you know who I'm talking about from Facebook. He says, what will be more groundbreaking as a discovery and why? Understanding dark matter or discovering life outside of our solar system.

11:48Or even Earth. So, the dark matter question would be amazing. It's the longest unsolved problem, longest standing unsolved problem in astrophysics. We're going on 90 years not knowing what dark matter is. Look at that. So, yeah, no, yeah. So if we learn what it is, that would be a great day in astrophysics. However, if it's simply another kind of particle that doesn't interact with our own and it's out there, that we're hypothesizing anyway, that's not as interesting as if dark matter were the gravitational effect of a parallel universe. Whatever it is, I'd want it to have far-reaching implications for me to get excited about it.

12:38Okay? If we know dark matter, then we know dark energy. And is there another thing? Do we now, can we unpack black holes because we know? Is there some other thing that it comes with? Is there some package deal with other unsolved problems that get solved with it? If not, I'm going with the discovery of life elsewhere on an exoplanet. Interesting. Because for two reasons. If it's made of DNA, either we're shared DNA and life got around in the early formations of solar systems, or DNA is an inevitable consequence of complex organic chemistry. Right. So that wherever you find life, it would then be DNA-based.

13:23Right. Now think about it. Is that so much of a stretch? If you go to Mars, you find rocks that are familiar, right? If you go to Europa, you find ice that you have seen before. So geology and chemistry seem to repeat. You see volcanoes on Io, one of Jupiter's moons. So why would biology have to be sort of unique to one place and not be a highly repeatable phenomenon? That's a fair question to ask. But I can tell you that, so it would be interesting if it was based on DNA for both of those reasons. It would be even more interesting if it had nothing to do with DNA. Yet it still was life self-replicating, thriving.

14:09That would be like, oh, we got to open up our definition and our understanding of what life is. Right. And then the biologists who, you know, they celebrate the diversity of life, but behind closed doors, they got to be honest with themselves. You know what that honesty is? Oh, look at the diversity of life. Plants and animals and fungi. Behind closed doors, it's all. It's pretty much the same. It's routine. It's. It's nothing special, baby. All life has one common origin. Right. So what you want is another genesis. And then you can compare and contrast. Well, life requires this, but doesn't require that.

14:51Well, you know, we used to think life required a 72-degree tide pool. You know, just to. No, no, you have extremophiles doing the backstroke in acid under radiation conditions. So every new thing we learn about life on Earth tells us how hardy life is and how resilient it is to stress to a system. Even if an organism dies, life in general seems to thrive. And so if we find life thriving under conditions undreamt of, with a chemistry unimagined, And for me, that would be a far greater discovery than just finding out another particle to add to the particle zoo that we then credit for being dark matter.

15:34The particle zoo. I think I'm going to take my kids there. Chuck, we got to take a quick break. When we come back, more cosmic queries. Galactic gumbo. No, you say it, Chuck. No, galactic gumbo. They don't mean about saying them. Guaranteed. When we return. That was good.

16:06I'm Brian Futterman, and I support StarTalk on Patreon. This is StarTalk with Neil deGrasse Tyson.

16:21We're back. StarTalk. Cosmic Queries. Grab bag edition, but Chuck calls it something else. Yeah, Galactic Gumbo. No, Gumbo's got a lot of different ingredients. That's why we're saying that, right? Yes. Because Gumbo's got what? You got... Oh, man, you got everything. You got crab, you got corn, you got crawdad, you got sauce, andouille sausage. Andouille, yeah. And you also have rice. That's right. Yeah, yeah, okay. Oh, man. I think I told you this. I don't know if we talked about it on the air or privately, but Yvonne Gagné. Gosh darn man. Got to get you some Yvonne Gagne gumbo. She's a friend of the family from New Orleans who used to make gumbo that would...

17:05So where is it? So I'm waiting for it. You're like, don't talk about it. Do something. Don't talk about it. You have never mentioned it on or off the air because I haven't had it yet. I'm trying to get that clear. There you go. All right. Well, we're going to... Give me some. We're going to do that. Here we go. So let's go to Riyam Samari, who says, he's very poetic. So I'm just going to read all this, everything here, because he's very poetic. He says, the sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, will we one day venture to the stars? It was Carl Sagan's lifetime mission to encourage humanity to explore the universe.

17:40And you, Neil, are calling for the same goal and carrying the message to a new generation. Given the recent promising spaceflight developments of SpaceX, do you think that during our lifetime we will finally see humans colonizing other planets or at least finding a glimpse of intelligent life on other worlds? That's beautiful. Yeah, yeah. This is a guy who spends a lot of time reading your stuff, Clint. I don't know. See? Okay. So the answer is no. Oh, damn. Oh, damn. This hurts. I'm just being honest. I mean. Oh, that was a hot knife and twisted. Wow. He's so eloquently asked this very, like, just super optimistic question.

18:40And are you serious? Do you really think no? Yeah. He said our lifetime? No. Wow. But can I tell you why? I didn't pull that out of my ass. I have reasons for thinking this, okay? Go ahead. Think about it. What other planet in our own solar system comes closest to anyone possibly living on it? Which planet? It's none. Well, Mars used to be. Mars, Mars, Mars. Okay, now, because Mars has polar ice caps, it has seasons, it's near us in the habitable zone, It once had liquid running water. It doesn't today, maybe underwater. It's not underground. You know, permafrost, frozen. So, okay, Mars. You ain't going to Venus.

19:25It's 900 degrees Fahrenheit, 500 degrees Celsius. It's hotter than a pizza oven. You ain't going to Venus. You're not going to Mercury. It's almost as hot, okay? So, Mars, do you realize that Antarctica is wetter and balmier than every location on Mars. Yet I don't see people lining up to buy condos in Antarctica. Colonize. That's because Superman's a lousy neighbor. Excuse me, he's in the North Pole. Oh, is he really in the North Pole? Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's the North Pole. But there they showed land, but there's no land in the North Pole, so they got that wrong. That's right, right. Santa is on an ice floe.

20:12That's right. whatever's left of it. Santa's in a bathing suit right now, sipping, sipping pina coladas. With a polar bear wearing sunglasses. You know what? We're laughing, but it's so sad. Go ahead. The excuse for Santa to get buff, right? If he's in a bathing suit on an ice floe. Exactly. Sipping a drink. We'll give Santa with abs. That'd be interesting. So we don't see that happening. So the urge to live on Mars would be novel initially, I think. But to say, I want to live here forever, I don't see that happening as an urge. You'll want to get back to Earth. You'll vacation there briefly, but you'll want to get back to Earth.

20:58And so I'm suspecting. So for me, what you'd have to do is terraform the planets first. Then they're Earth-like. and then you can go there and pitch tent and you get off the spaceship and you don't suffocate. When Columbus arrived in the New World as one of the first Europeans, I guess after the Vikings, when he stepped off his ship, he could breathe the air. He met other people here who greeted him. He could eat the fruit on the vines. He could repair his ship. Why? Because the trees in the New World were made of wood, just like the trees in Europe. So when people speak of the next generation of space exploration, analogizing to that era of explorers, you're missing the point about dying when you step off the ship.

21:55So it is supremely hostile to human physiology. That's all I'm saying. Wow. And plus, if we do go to another planet and find civilizations, I'd like to think we've learned something about how to interact with people who are there to greet you.

22:15So, lessons from the Columbus chapter of colonization is, if you do find other life forms, what's the playbook for how we're going to interact with those life forms? Be they what we designate as intelligent or not. By the way, NASA has an entire branch of itself called planetary protection, which is if you're going to visit a place that might have life and send a probe there, you have to sterilize the probe completely so that if you sneezed on it before it was launched, you don't get rhinovirus on the planet that you're going to be exploring for life itself. And for any samples that get returned to Earth, they have to be quarantined to make sure that nothing then contaminates Earth.

22:58Cool. So that's my longer answer, but the answer is still no. Wow. I mean, look. To visit, yeah, but I don't see colonization. Yeah, yeah, it makes sense. It makes sense. Sorry, Riam. Sorry, buddy. Okay. Sorry, buddy. There we go. This is Brett Marshall from Facebook, and I just have to read this because I, you know, it's, I don't know why. He goes, hey, I'm still here, and I'm still too stupid to come up with a good question. Okay. But I listen to every show. That's what it said? Yes. That's great. That's not the whole thing? That's it. That's all he said. Say it again. Read it again. I got to hear it again.

23:35He goes, hey, still here. Still too stupid to come up with a good question. Listen to every show. Peace. I appreciate the sentiment. But by the way, I don't judge whether a question's good or not. In the end, is my answer good? You should be judging my answer, not whether you think your question is good. Ask anything you feel. That's what matters here. Okay. All right, here we go. This is Duan Only. Duan Only from Instagram. Hello, Dr. Tyson. How far do you think our advancements in science would be if the United States budget used for the military was actually used towards science and technology?

24:23Oh, my God. What a question. Oh! Yay! Okay, so the budget, I haven't looked at the very latest budget, but last time I looked, the budget for the National Science Foundation was about$30 billion. NASA's budget is about$20 billion. So you put them together, you get about$50 billion. There are other ways we spend money on science. For example, the National Institutes of Health does medical research, this sort of thing. So if you add up all the portfolios in all disciplines of science research in America, you get up maybe$70 billion, maybe$100 billion. That's a lot of money. The military spends$600 billion every year on the military.

25:08Now, a lot of that is standing armies, literally and figuratively. It's like, you know, pay or play. It's like, oh, you want to fight a war? That's on top. Right, exactly. Oh, war? I didn't know you wanted to fight a war. We need more money for that. Okay.

25:28So it's not always true that throwing money at something at that high rate leads to a discovery. Sometimes you have to move through a place where new ideas percolate, germinate, and maybe those new ideas come from a wrong result. It could be a wrong result that says, wait a minute. No, we were doing it wrong the whole time. It's really this. And you couldn't have had that thought unless you landed in a place where you had done it wrong in the first place. Some of this takes time. So I would say the way to think about this is they have peer review research grants. And so I write a grant. I say, I want to do this research.

26:12It's going to take me this long. It's going to take me this much money. I want to hire this many people. I'm going to do it in this location. And they approve. Okay. So here's what happens. Depending on how much money there is and how many people are applying, you get to grant 10 % of applications, sometimes 50. Well, how about the other 85 %? Well, you can say, well, these are just not worth funding. But these others were on the border and they should be funded, but we can't fund everything. You want money for those. Okay? That would, I think, double what we're currently spending. So I would say if you want as healthy a science budget as you have given the number of scientists in the country, if you doubled all the science budgets, that would get us pretty far pretty quickly.

26:51Now, how advanced would we be? Again, it's a matter of time. Okay? If civilization didn't spend so much time in the Dark Ages or rejecting what science could have been, if scientists weren't sorcerers or people who had some knowledge of the natural world, if we weren't crediting oceans to Zeus or to the wrath of God or to other supernatural forces, and we said, no, wait a minute, maybe they're natural forces. Had that begun earlier? It's possible we might have been on the moon in the 19th century rather than in the 20th century. But again, it takes developments, right? You have to figure out, oh, we need this new material.

27:33We have to dig for it. Well, where are we going to dig? Is the geology matched with that? We have to understand the human physiology. It's medicine at that place. So it's very complicated. In a good way, it's complicated. I mean, you want a lot of different things happening, but you also need bridges and tunnels connecting these discoveries so that the next innovation can exploit what had come before in any discipline that it needs to make that happen. So I would say to punch science along at the rate it should, you'd have to double all budgets. And otherwise, yeah, we probably lost a few centuries in the history of civilization.