Cosmic Queries – Starquakes with Conny Aerts

8 May 2026 · 53 min · 19 chapters

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In short

Starquakes (stellar oscillations) and what they reveal about stars, including how seismology works in stars, how starquakes differ from Earth quakes, and how rotation, age, and internal structure are inferred from brightness/oscillation data.

Guests

Connie Aerts, professor of astrophysics (KU Leuven, Belgium) and professor of astro-seismology (Radboud University, Netherlands). She’s visiting the Flatiron Institute in New York on sabbatical.

Key claims

  • Stars constantly oscillate; “starquakes” are smooth, ongoing variations detectable as brightness changes.
  • Oscillation frequencies encode interior physics and chemical composition; long time-series data are needed for frequency resolution.
  • A major breakthrough is measuring internal stellar rotation via Doppler-shifted oscillation modes, updating stellar evolution models and lifetimes (especially massive stars).
  • Solar coronal mass ejections and sunspots disrupt oscillations but don’t erase the persistent ~5-minute solar oscillation signal; Earth’s magnetic field shields us from stellar particle hazards.

Notable examples

  • Betelgeuse dimming: obscuration from expelled material, complicating measurements, but the star still has oscillations.
  • Solar oscillations: strongest periods around ~5 minutes; very massive stars can have month-long oscillations, requiring “sonification”/frequency shifting to human hearing.

Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.

Chapters

Tap a time to open that second in VO

Understanding Starquakes

0:00 to 0:54

Introduction to the concept of starquakes and their significance.

“Eczema is unpredictable, but you can flare less with EpGliss, a once-monthly treatment for moderate to severe eczema.”

Understanding Starquakes

2:40 to 4:50

Introduction to the concept of starquakes and their significance.

“This is StarTalk Cosmic Queries Edition.”

Astroseismology Explained

4:50 to 8:00

Discussion on astroseismology and how it helps in understanding stars.

“And so first tell us, what is astroseismology?”

The Symphony of Stars

8:00 to 11:10

Exploration of how starquakes produce sound waves and their significance.

“And so the brightness of the star changes as a function of time.”

Quakes Beyond Earth

11:10 to 13:30

Discussion on quakes in other celestial bodies and their characteristics.

“So that question already got asked, Matt.”

Measuring Celestial Quakes

13:30 to 14:08

Insight into how we measure quakes on stars and planets.

“and we've got sort of gases in Jupiter-Saturn.”

Understanding Starquakes and Their Measurements

14:08 to 17:31

Learn how starquakes reveal information about a star's size, density, and internal structure.

“So by measuring the frequencies of the quakes, we know quite directly how big the object is and what its density is.”

Break Time and Teaser

17:31 to 20:08

A brief intermission leading into discussions about aliens and their representation.

“Well, let's take a quick break, and we're going to come back to more star quakes.”

Diving Deeper into Starquakes

21:20 to 28:00

Exploring how starquakes can inform us about the internal rotation and evolution of stars.

“Matt, where can I find you on the internet?”

Understanding Star Rotation and Life Expectancy

28:00 to 29:53

Learn how star rotation influences their life expectancy and internal mixing.

“Matt, did I just hear this woman correctly here?”
Show all 19 chapters

The Role of Angular Momentum in Stars

29:53 to 31:49

Explore how angular momentum affects nuclear fusion and star stability.

“We have about 2 ,000 stars now for which this has been measured by many groups in the world with astrothesmologists.”

Starquakes and Oscillations Explained

31:49 to 38:15

Discover the causes of starquakes and their connection to stellar behavior.

“Even if it's physically small, it's got a lot of mass going on.”

Betelgeuse: Mystery of the Dimming Star

38:15 to 40:51

Uncover the reasons behind Betelgeuse's dimming and its implications.

“No, it's not bad, because it will explode eventually, but that can take still some while.”

Astroseismology and the James Webb Telescope

43:28 to 45:43

Exploring how astro seismology relates to observations from the James Webb Telescope.

“We're back for the third and final segment of StarTalk Cosmic Queries, the astro seismology edition.”

The Importance of Long-Term Measurements

45:43 to 48:35

Understanding why long-term measurements are crucial for studying starquakes.

“But I would not spend its time on starquakes.”

Coronal Mass Ejections and Sunspots

48:35 to 54:00

Discussing the impact of solar activity on starquakes and their effects on Earth.

“Please leave James Webb to the people who need it, and I'm not one of them.”

The Nature of Starquakes

54:00 to 56:00

Exploring the characteristics and implications of starquakes.

“So let's see if we can get a few more in before we call it a day.”

The Mystery of the Sun's Solitude

56:00 to 58:09

Explore why our solar system is not part of a binary star system.

“So we just have to draw some arbitrary line of what we catalog as a variable star relative to other stars.”

The Mystery of the Sun's Solitude

59:02 to 59:55

Explore why our solar system is not part of a binary star system.

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Transcript

Automatic transcript. May contain errors.

0:00Eczema is unpredictable, but you can flare less with EpGliss, a once-monthly treatment for moderate to severe eczema. After an initial four-month or longer dosing phase, about four in ten people taking EpGliss achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks. And most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing. EpGliss, LibriKizumab, LBKZ, a 250 milligram per two milliliter injection, is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema.

0:30Also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies. EBCLIS can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you're allergic to EBCLIS. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with EBCLIS. Before starting EBCLIS, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. Ask your doctor about EBCLIS and visit Visit ebclist.lily.com or call 1-800-LILY-RX or 1-800-545-5979.

1:00Prime Day is June 23rd through the 26th. These deals are so appealing, like portable steamers for steaming. Whoa, did I just sing soprano? I think I'm breaking into song. Epic deals on air fryers, vacuums, and skincare. I can't stop singing. Shop Epic Deals this Prime Day, June 23rd through the 26th. I think that's it. Nope, there's more. Luggage, smart glasses.

1:30Neil deGrasse Tyson:StarTalk Radio is presented by Pluto TV. It's a universal truth. Pluto is not a planet. Pluto TV, on the other hand, holds a universe of free entertainment we can stream from our own planet. Check out the ever-expanding list of supernatural favourites, including Fringe, The X-Files, Battlestar Galactica, and a full fleet of Star Trek series you can stream for free. No payment, just pure discovery. See what's landing on Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never. Hey StarTalkians, Neil here. You're about to listen to an episode specially drawn from our archives to serve your cosmic curiosities. The archives run deep.

2:19Neil deGrasse Tyson:If you enjoy this, take a peek at the full catalog on your favorite podcast platform. There's a lot there to tickle your geek underbelly. Check it out. Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. This is StarTalk Cosmic Queries Edition. question this one is titled starquakes who i've got as a co-host here matt kershine matt welcome back to star talk thank you so much for having me it's nice to be back yeah so you solicited questions about like stars and starquakes from i'm i'm very excited about this topic and so are the listeners there's been a lot of uh a lot of your patron patrons have responded to this one and we're going to try and get through as many of these as possible but uh well i don't know what damn thing about starquakes.

3:19Yeah, I know. I live in California where earthquakes are a problem, so I know how to deal with those. But if you're involved in a starquake, is getting under a table still enough? Or how do we deal with it?

3:29Neil deGrasse Tyson:Yeah, we're going to find out for sure. So our guest with the expertise we need is Connie Arts. I think I pronounced that right, Connie. Welcome to StarTalk. Hi, glad to be here. Excellent. Now, you're in from Belgium and the Netherlands. You have a dual appointment. One as the professor of astrophysics at, let me get this straight, in Leuven, Belgium. And it's KU, the Catholic University. It's like Catholic University in Leuven, is that correct? Yeah, KU Leuven. Just don't worry about it. KU Leuven. Leuven is a small college town in Belgium. So that's right. Excellent. And in the Netherlands, you're a professor of astro seismology at Radboud University in the Netherlands.

4:20Neil deGrasse Tyson:And so the fact that that's even a title to hold, astro seismology, says how far we've come in just the specification within the broader field of astrophysics. And I think this is just delightful. And your expertise is stellar astrophysics, stellar structure and evolution. These are two favorites of mine professionally. But I never really thought about seismology in anything other than Earth. And so first tell us, what is astroseismology? Well, it's the study of the seismology of stars. Now, as you say... You have to do better than that. Yeah, I know, I know. Give me a chance, right? Give me a chance.

5:07So we all know earthquakes that the earth has a whole crust, you know, it's not pleasant to have earthquakes, but it's fantastic to have starquakes. Stars are hot, caches, fierce, and they also move up and down. And we can use these starquakes to learn what's inside the star. It's the only way to know how to look inside the star. And that's just like seismologists of the earth. They are the only happy people when the Earth is quaking, let's say. Why? Because the earthquakes create waves. They travel into the planet. They bounce back at the iron core and seismographs detect it. And then we can do all sorts of fun physics and chemistry of our planet.

5:55And we do the same, but then for stars.

5:58Neil deGrasse Tyson:Okay, Matt, I think Connie just said that while cities are burning and everyone is dying, Geologists are delighted that they have earthquakes. Absolutely, yeah. I'm hiding under a table while my pets are going crazy, and seismologists like the data. What beautiful data we're getting right now. The data. But I'm confused, though, because when I think of an earthquake, I have a very simple understanding of it, that you have a rigid crust that is under pressure and under tension, and then it spontaneously gives way, and then you get an abrupt shift, and that's an earthquake. But when I think of stars, they're fluids.

6:36Neil deGrasse Tyson:They're gaseous fluids. So what could possibly be quaking if you don't have anything solid to build up the tension that then gets released? Yeah, so that's a bit different because the starquakes are happening all the time because it's a gas. And so you have motions, right? Up and down motions, but also more complex motions. And if you press a gas and then release it, it creates sound waves. That's a bit like music in a theater hall. So for me, stars are three-dimensional musical halls, concert halls. Wow. And so the nice thing is that starquakes are always there. Luckily for us humans, the earthquakes die out quickly, right?

7:29Neil deGrasse Tyson:and they're rare relative i mean they're rare in the sense of the ones that do serious damage are rare but as i understand it there are actually earthquakes of even very small magnitude almost all the time i think that's correct yeah that's correct because anybody in nature vibrates yeah and so yeah stars do that all the time and they do it permanently which for us astrophysicists is great because we can measure the up and down motion why because it gives changes in the in the temperature of the star. And so the brightness of the star changes as a function of time. And then we have our seismographs that measure these changes as a function of time.

8:09Neil deGrasse Tyson:And your seismographs are also, you implied there, that they're sensitive to those boundaries where temperature changes. That's right. Because your sound would get reflected, or your pressure wave, which we're calling sound, would get reflected or bent in a different way. and you use that to model the total interior structure of the star. Is that correct? Yeah, that's correct. But yeah, like we cannot hear these sound waves with our ears. So we see the brightness variations because the sound is only propagating there where there is gas. And between us and the star, you know, there's nothing. It's empty, right?

8:49So we can't literally hear the frequencies of the waves, but we see the up and down motion. And so that is actually connected. The frequency of the sound waves created by these up and down motions is connected to the physics and also the chemical composition of the star in its interior. So we can't literally dive into the stellar concert hall, but we can measure the frequencies from a distance, let's say. But if you could, you would hear all of these.

9:19Neil deGrasse Tyson:Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fantastic. Sometimes I give lectures for musical artists and then they are all totally fascinated about these sounds. Let me test this on Matt. So Matt, NASA is going to plan a mission to send astronauts to the sun to listen to these sounds. But it's dangerous, obviously, so they're going to go at night. You need your earplugs as well. I go to loud concerts sometimes. I don't take any chances now. I'm getting old and my hearing is going. That, by the way, I know we haven't got into the questions yet, but that actually is one of our questions from Lucas, from listening to Lucas, was actually about whether you can make that the heartbeat of stars into music.

10:02Yes. So you're saying yes, that you can absolutely do that.

10:05Neil deGrasse Tyson:Oh, my goodness. So you have a portfolio of frequencies going on at different times in different locations. And so you get a clever musician to sort of take all that bass material and figure out a way to listen to it. That would be interesting. Yeah, yeah. So we actually just shift. I mean, each star has its own symphony, right? Depending on how big it is, how much mass it has, how old it is, it has its own symphony. but then we shift that global symphony into the audible range of humans that's that's called sonification it's a whole field by itself and actually it allows blind people to be astronomers i find that uh i'm a very uh for me inclusion is very important so in this way we can reach people who can't see but they can hear the stars but we have to help them a little bit by shifting to the We have finally achieved the goals of the ancients by celebrating the music of the spheres.

11:06Neil deGrasse Tyson:Yeah, exactly. That's true. Oh, man. Okay. So that question already got asked, Matt. So who asked that? That was Lucas from New West who asked that question. What is New West? What is that? I don't know. It just says New West. I'm not sure exactly. But Lucas also precedes it by saying, I have a geek kind of question, which I don't think you need to precede any questions to start off with that. This is a geek safe space here, everybody. You don't have to preface it. But New West, I mean, I live in New York. And, you know, there's... Formerly New Amsterdam. Just south of New England. I've never heard of New West.

11:43Neil deGrasse Tyson:I don't know what that is. Maybe that's California after it breaks away from the San Andreas Fault. Just floating off. Just floating off into the Pacific. So why don't we get some more questions here? This is great. Now that we have some foundation for what... Yeah, we've got some awesome ones. Some of them have already, some of them you've already kind of answered, and I'm sure that'll happen as we go along, but I'll try and get as many ones in. So James Smith from Indianapolis says, what is the largest recorded quake not found here on Earth? And also, do all planets have plates that shift like Earth?

12:11A couple of people have asked that question as well, whether all other planets have plates. Interesting.

12:14Neil deGrasse Tyson:So let's start there first. You know, we know Earth is geologically active because there's like volcanoes and plate tectonics. So where else in the solar system might do that before we get back to the sun? Oh, well, you know, all planets will have quakes. I mean, any body in nature quakes. I was about to bang the table here, but I will not do that. But the table would also have, you know, quakes. So they damp out quickly depending on whether you have a gaseous planet or a crust-like planet like Earth. So Jupiter, Saturn, all the big gaseous planets in our solar system, they also have quakes. Wait a minute, Connie.

12:57Neil deGrasse Tyson:You're saying every sound anywhere is a quake to you. Yeah. Okay. That's true. You do. So we're guitarists. What we're doing right now is kind of causing the tiniest of tiniest quakes by making sound. We're quaking through Earth's atmosphere. Of course. You're creating sound waves. Oh, my gosh. Listener Woody also asked, by the way, on this same topic, what different, would the ice giants experience quakes? I guess you've said the answer is yes. and what possible differences would there be between Earth, water, ice, frozen, methane, and nitrogen quakes? Yeah, so the... Right, that's a bit, wait, just a quick thing.

13:29Neil deGrasse Tyson:So we've got ice in Uranus-Neptune, the ice giants, and we've got sort of gases in Jupiter-Saturn. We've got Earth's crust here. And so presumably, Connie, you've got some portfolio of who makes what kind of sound under what conditions so that you can decode what you hear. Is that correct? That's correct. And so the frequency of the sound waves of all these heavenly bodies is really determined by the density of the object. And so stars are gases and their density is very different from the density here on Earth. They're very low, yeah. Or in Jupiter, yeah. So by measuring the frequencies of the quakes, we know quite directly how big the object is and what its density is.

14:29And if you know these two, then you know the mass. So that's the basic tools, right?

14:34Neil deGrasse Tyson:You said that on the sun, you measure the quakes because some parts of the sun get brighter relative to others because they're hotter. How do you do that with just a planet sitting out there in space? Yeah, we need to send some space mission there to come closer and to be able to see this. And so for stars, we also, I mean, this is a booming research field in astrophysics. Why? Because we recently had the luck of being able to measure the brightness variations with satellites. We don't have a seismograph that we can put there, literally, like for the Earth. But we sent instruments that measure these tiny variations in the gas, you know?

15:18Neil deGrasse Tyson:Okay, so I'm an old world astrophysicist. So when you say we make these measurements by going there, that's cheating. That's cheating. Yeah, yeah. We can't go there. That's tabletop science at that level. If you get to go there. But you're saying it's the same kind of features in a gaseous planet. Some parts will be a little warmer or cooler than others on the surface. And that'll give you seismic information about what's going on inside. As soon as the density changes, for whatever reason, density changes give pressure waves, and these are sound waves. Right? Okay. And so the follow-up part from James, what's the largest recorded quake not found on Earth?

16:08Oh, we have the slowest quake in a star. It can take several, several months in period. Well, for the sun, it's five minutes, by the way. For those who don't know, yeah, the solar quakes go up and down, create sound waves with periods of about a few minutes, five minutes at their strongest. So for a very big blue supergiant star, it takes months before the quake went up and down.

16:35Neil deGrasse Tyson:So just to be clear, the normal frequencies we listen to are hundreds and thousands of cycles per second. And that's what our eardrum and brain will record. And you're saying these are cycles every five minutes. Yes, and that's even fast. Or even every month. So that's why you have to shift it back to our audio range. Yeah. Otherwise, we would never even know it was happening. That's right. These are slow waves to human standards. Right. You'd vaporize first, but while you were vaporized, you would not know you were in the middle of a starquake. That's right. That's wild for me. So incredibly slow, but presumably hugely energetic.

17:17Yes, that's true. Yeah. So the energy of each wave can be quite tremendous, but that also depends on the type of waves that you're dealing with.

17:29Neil deGrasse Tyson:Okay. Wow. All right. Well, let's take a quick break, and we're going to come back to more star quakes. Something was like, what? But to Connie, everything's a quake. So we'll get more into that in this episode of StarTalk Cosmic Queries when we return.

17:55Neil deGrasse Tyson:Do we have any good reason to think that aliens would be evil? Where did we get that idea from? Aliens could be the most peace-loving creatures the universe has ever generated. Yet our representations of them tend to be diabolical. Which gets me to wonder that these representations of evil aliens are not based on how we think they will behave. that maybe they're really based on how we know we have behaved to one another, especially when there's a conflict between a higher technology and a lower technology. So exploring the topic of aliens can not only give us insights into all the ways of being alive in the universe, it can, on occasion, hold up a mirror to our greatest fear, which might, in fact, be ourselves.

18:50Neil deGrasse Tyson:That and more in my latest offering, Take Me to Your Leader, Perspectives on Your First Alien Encounter. I narrated the audiobook that's available with the print version, and I'm kind of thinking you should get it now. It'd be too late. If you have your first alien encounter and have not yet read the book, you want to be ready. Eczema is unpredictable, but you can flare less with EPCLISP, A once-monthly treatment for moderate to severe eczema. After an initial four-month or longer dosing phase, about four in ten people taking EBCLIS achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks.

19:29And most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing. EBCLIS, LibriKizumab, LBKZ, a 250 milligram per two milliliter injection, is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema. Also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies. EBCLIS can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you're allergic to EBCLIS. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe.

19:57Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with EBCLIS. Before starting EBCLIS, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. Ask your doctor about EBCLIS and visit EBCLIS.lily.com or call 1-800-LILY-RX or 1-800-545-5979. Prime Day is June 23rd through the 26th. These deals are so appealing, like portable steamers for steaming. Whoa, did I just sing soprano? I think I'm breaking into song. Epic deals on air fryers, vacuums, and skincare. I can't stop singing. Shop Epic deals this Prime Day, June 23rd through the 26th.

20:38I think that's it. Nope, there's more. Luggage, smart glasses.

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21:19Neil deGrasse Tyson:We're back. Star Talk, Cosmic Queries. We're talking about star quakes. And my co-host, Matt Kirshen. Matt, where can I find you on the internet? Well, you can find my podcast, Probably Science. I start with the Neil episode. That's always a nice place to start. I was a guest once on your Probably Science. I just thought by now it would have been called Certainly Science. I thought it was evolutionary. but apparently not. The longer we do the show, the more probably it gets. It's going to descend through possibly to... To probably not. And then I'm on Twitter, at Matt Kirshen, and technically on Instagram, but I'm very rarely there.

22:01Neil deGrasse Tyson:Okay, Kirshen, K-A-R-S-H-E-N. And we have as our in-house expert right now on Starquakes, professor of astroseismology in the Netherlands. But right now, Connie Arts, I think I pronounced that right, is visiting New York City at a place called the Flatiron Institute, which is in the Flatiron section of Manhattan. And very cool science is happening there. All manner of science. It started with sort of math and astrophysics, but it's spilling into biology and computer science where very deep problems that need high performance computing and clever people to solve them are invited to then gather their talents and try to solve the secrets of the universe.

22:53Neil deGrasse Tyson:and Connie Arts is on sabbatical this year. So Connie, we're delighted to have you as part of this podcast. Very grateful to be here. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. So we've got some more questions. But before we do that, I just want to be clear that most people's understanding of the word quake is, I think, built in is that it's abrupt and short-lived. that's kind of built into our life experience with a quake. And, but we're now hearing about quakes on completely different time scales. Should you have invented another word to describe a quake that moves on the scale of days or months rather than seconds or minutes?

Read the full transcript

23:40Sure, and I use the term star quakes for popular lectures, but actually in our professional life, we speak of stellar oscillations. So the global oscillations, they're smooth, they're properly behaved. So for stars, it's a bit less abrupt than for earthquakes, let's say.

24:02Neil deGrasse Tyson:Okay, okay. So if on Earth they were Earth oscillations, then Matt, maybe you wouldn't have to hide under a desk or in the structural beams of the house. I would just ride it out. Just ride it out? Surf it out? Keep the knees beflexed, keep your core stable. That's all you need. But you would get seasick all the time, you know, because they would always be there, you know. Yeah, eyes on the horizon. That's the secret. Always look out the window. Don't try to look at a fixed object inside. Take me surfing one day out in Los Angeles and teach me. Oh, I'm a terrible surfer. Oh, okay. So, Matt, what else do we have for Connie?

24:38We've got some great questions. By the way, just a side note, I love when we have topics like this, when it's something that is close to Neil's wheelhouse, but just outside it. When it's like in your field of astrophysics, but something that you've never really encountered. They're my favorite episodes.

24:51Neil deGrasse Tyson:Because you like looking how much of an idiot I am. That's what you're saying. I love it. Yeah, just at the edge of Neil's knowledge. It's my favorite. It's the best. Well, those are my favorite episodes where I learn stuff. Absolutely. This is good. This is good. So I'm going to combine these two questions. I like to do this because two people... I want to hear their names anyway. Absolutely. Dylan from NAU in Flagstaff and Alejandro Reynoso from Monterey have both asked about what we can actually learn from the oscillation of stars. Dylan says, can we predict its age and or understand the core?

25:25And also, do all stars oscillate or just dying stars, supermassive stars, main sequence stars? And then Alejandro says, what have you learned from analyzing star quakes that you couldn't learn with other methods? So basically, they're both asking, what specifically is it that we can learn from these quakes?

25:40Neil deGrasse Tyson:I'm going to tighten that question and say, What are you learning that we didn't otherwise figure out through other means? Okay. If there's one word that I have to ask to that question, it is rotation of stars. That's more than one word, but internal rotation of stars. You know, why is that? Let me give the analogy with music again. So we have sound waves that are happening inside a star, but the gas in the star is rotating around, right? And what do you get when you put a musician in a theater play and you make the podium rotate just for the fun of it as a surprise to the musician? You get pissed off musicians.

26:23That's what you get. Exactly. I like that experiment, actually. You can really hear that. But the symphony is destroyed. That's what the audience would say. Now, for me, as an astrasesmologist, the frequencies of the waves get shifted. right? The Doppler shift. Yeah, they get shifted because of the extra motion here to the rotation. And we can measure that. And we're not measuring that at the surface of the star, but inside the star where the starquake has its strongest energy, right? And so what we have come to realize is that the theory of how stars evolve, relying on how they rotate in their interior is quite off.

27:10It's not very good. And that's not surprising, right? Because we could only measure, before we had star clicks, we could only measure the rotation of the star at its external layer. Like for the sun, you see the tiny little dark spots of the sun rotating around, if you're patient? Every 26 days, you see them back in your line of sight. So the sun rotates with a period of about 26 days but that's just the outer layers it doesn't say at all how it rotates in its interior so if you have no information what can you do well you think

27:43Neil deGrasse Tyson:well it won't be that different you just assume it's the same right you assume it's the same everything else rotates as an as a kind of a unified object why would i even think some lower level would rotate at a different rate well the stars have many more surprises than us uh astrophysicists have imagination. What a smack! Oh, Matt, did you hear? Matt, did I just hear this woman correctly here? Yeah, I stand by it. I'm on team star on this one. That was a smackdown right there. Yes, I always say the stars are right. The theory is wrong if it doesn't match with each other, right? So thanks to the frequency shifts of these waves, we can now measure how stars rotate around.

28:31And why is that important? Well, if they rotate faster or slower, then their material gets mixed in a different way. That's also something you can imagine if you take the analogy with coffee drinkers. If you like coffee with milk, you pour milk into your coffee and you don't wait until everything is mixed because then the coffee is cold and it doesn't taste well anymore. No, you take a spoon and you rotate your coffee. In my terminology, that is saying you bring angular momentum to the coffee cup. And why do you do that?

29:07Neil deGrasse Tyson:That's what everyone says when they're having coffee at Starbucks. That's what everybody does without saying it. And that's because everybody prefers well-mixed coffee with milk. I'm assuming at the Flatiron Institute that just the coffee station there has angular momentum implements. Yes. How much angular momentum would you like on your coffee this morning? Do you want a metal angular momentum implement or one of the wooden straight ones? Well, we could do an experiment of how people do that. But, you know, the diversity of human beings taking their spoons will be large. And in stars, there's a whole range of internal rotation frequencies that we have measured.

29:53We have about 2 ,000 stars now for which this has been measured by many groups in the world with astrothesmologists. And so the life of the stars is really going slower if I look at the measurements.

30:08Neil deGrasse Tyson:You mean our estimates for their life expectancy need to be updated to have them live longer than we originally thought, is that what you're saying? Yeah, particularly for the big massive stars. Is that because they're mixing more material into their core? Yeah, they're mixing. Giving them a little more lease on life. Yeah, and they get more material into their inner part. And in the inner part of the stars is actually a nuclear reactor for me. Because the simplest constituent, which is hydrogen, is turned into helium by nuclear fusion. And stars are masterpieces in that. But if you bring more hydrogen into that area where it's hot and dense enough, then the star can live longer.

30:51and so the rotation affects how much nuclear fuel you bring inside its interior actually. That was about to be the opposite of what I would have guessed because I was wondering whether the stirring effect would have sped up the fusion reaction by kind of, you know, you can increase the speed of a chemical reaction. I know that's different from a nuclear reaction by stirring the chemicals together or by increasing the energy in there, but you're saying it's the opposite because it's bringing more fuel in from the outside layers of the star. Yeah, so once the nuclear burning is ongoing, the nuclear fusion in stars is stable.

31:26Stars can do that very well. We humans can't do that here.

31:30Neil deGrasse Tyson:Now, everything I know about the nuclear furnace says that it's pretty small relative to the size of the star itself. Do your waves give you enough information about tiny areas like the nuclear core? Yeah, well, tiny, it's 10 % of the mass that typically takes part in the nuclear fusion. So it's still 10%. Of the mass. Even if it's physically small, it's got a lot of mass going on. Yeah, because the density is very high. And so if you change that 10 % to, say, 12%, that sounds like, you know, it's only 2%, you know. But that's a lot of fuel that you bring into your nuclear reactor. And so then, yeah.

32:07Neil deGrasse Tyson:And increase the life by at least 20%, perhaps. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It can really change the lifetime of the star. So that's, so to come back. And Matt, if you were in the center of a star, you'd be dense too. I just wanted to tell you that. Oh, thanks. It's one of the nicest things anyone's ever said to me. We've got more questions, Matt. Bring them on. We do. Aziz from Saudi Arabia says, I wonder if it's possible for a star to have a star quake so strong caused by, for example, nuclear fission or fusion happening abnormally fast or caused by any other reason to lose mass. I thought I'd ask that one because we're already talking about fusion.

32:45Neil deGrasse Tyson:You know, in the formation of stars in the galaxy, you can get shockwaves across a gas cloud that's otherwise mining its own business, and it can trigger gravitational collapse and other interesting features. So I'd love that question, Connie. So are starquaves just the product of what's going on, or are they a participant in causing what's going on? Yeah, so you can have all sorts of reasons why stars have these oscillations, right? And they can indeed be caused by the fierce turbulence in the core of a very massive star. Because we call that convection, turbulent motions. And they create waves also.

33:29Because again, they make the gas compress and expand. But there are also other reasons why stars can have starquakes. Think of the Earth-Moon system and tides. Well, half of the stars, or even more if you go to higher masses, they live together with two. And then they have tidal forces. A binary star system.

33:49Neil deGrasse Tyson:Just like in that scene in Star Wars where Luke comes out, is it the sand planet, and he sees a double sunset. That's the only accurate science in the entire series. That's okay. That's okay. Okay, so what happens there? So you have a gravitational tidal dance? And that's right. They rotate around each other and they pull. They give a tidal pull, right? And so you could also say that, you know, for me, tidal forces are actually forced oscillation. You know, I say everybody oscillates in nature. So when the stars are close enough together, the tidal oscillations, as I call them, are very strong, can be very strong.

34:35So that's another reason why stars can have stars.

34:39Neil deGrasse Tyson:So these are like a tidal bulge in the direction of the object responsible for it. Yeah. See, in my older years, I have a tidal bulge as well in my midsection. I'm watching for that just to see what I can do about it. Yeah. Yeah. You want to prevent it, but we like it when it started. All right, Matt, give me some more. Quentin from Switzerland says, and I don't know what Quentin is referring to, so hopefully one of you two can fill me in, says, do you need more data to exactly figure out what happened with Betelgeuse recently? Is it pronounced Betelgeuse? Betelgeuse, yes. It is pronounced Betelgeuse, like the film, but spelled differently.

35:18It seems pretty unlikely that we will witness a similar event in the near future. So what did happen recently?

35:23Neil deGrasse Tyson:I got to lead off with this, and then we'll get the actual answer from Connie. Okay. I heard, but Betelgeuse is one of the brightest stars in the night sky. It's an important star in one of the most dominant constellations of all 88. Dominant in size and appearance is Orion. Orion is visible in both the northern and southern hemispheres because it straddles the equator on the sky. And so there's this star, Betelgeuse, one of the biggest, baddest red giants in the known universe. And someone told me, do you realize Betelgeuse is getting dimmer? I said, no. What? What? And I looked up and I went, my whole life, Betelgeuse was a certain brightness relative to other stars in the constellation.

36:09Neil deGrasse Tyson:I cannot communicate to you my loss of breath in the moment I looked up. and I say, what is happening? Is this, you know, is this, is the seventh seal broken? Is this something biblical? So I want you to know, I nearly freaked out. So what happened to Betelgeuse a year ago when it just got mysteriously dim? Like it went to less than half its normal brightness and that had never been observed ever at any time anybody's been looking at the star. So we're going to blame you for this. What happened? Well, Betelgeuse is behaving normally as a star. It's a supergiant, right? It's a very big star. And so these stars are nearing the end of their life.

36:59And so they're puffing up their material and they're blowing it away, so to speak, right? And so when material gets lost from the star, well, then for us, the star is obscured because it's in between the supergiant and us. there's material that is being expelled. Now, for me, as an astrothesmologist, that's a bit annoying, that behavior, because Betelgeuse has starquakes, but all that material that's being expelled makes it hard to still measure them.

37:31Neil deGrasse Tyson:It's blocking your view. It's blocking the view. And that's also the reason why, for us, it's difficult to do astrothesmology from ground-based telescopes. The stars are up there. People say they twinkle, right? But that twinkling that you see with your eyes, that's not the star. That's actually the starlight that is being perturbed by the Earth's atmosphere. Right. And so it's a bit similar, but then the twinkling of Betelgeuse is caused by the material it has expelled. But it does have also oscillations, and these oscillations can tell us how old it is and how big it is, etc. All right, it's Betelgeuse ready to blow, because we think that's a supernova category star.

38:14Neil deGrasse Tyson:I said, oh my gosh, something bad's going to happen. It's going to happen. It's not bad. No, it's not bad, because it will explode eventually, but that can take still some while. So you don't want to go and look every day, because you may need to have some patience. Connie, we're trained to think that if something blows up, it's bad. Okay, I'm sorry. I'm just kidding. Yeah, but these guys are like, it's exciting. This is more data. It's more data. Okay. All right. This is like the rocket launchers who the rocket blows up on the launch pad. You say, oh, are you upset by that failure? No, that was an experiment rich in data.

38:54Yeah. Well, but I'm saying it's good because it enriches the galaxy with metals, with carbon, with oxygen, with iron. And, you know, we need that as human beings. So...

39:11Neil deGrasse Tyson:Okay, just to be clear, Matt, astrophysicists are... We are very lazy with regard to the periodic table of elements. And so any element that's not hydrogen or helium, we call it a metal. But this freaks out chemists. We're self-aware of this bad vernacular. But the point is 98 % of the universe is hydrogen and helium. and the rest is just other stuff. It's just experimental error. So we just call them metals and I'm just covering Connie's ass right here when she said the metals such as carbon. Right, no, she's being fully astrophysical in the referencing. But Connie, you speak of this blockage of ejected gas, like of course it would do that Yet it hasn't done it in the thousands of years we've been observing the night sky and mapping its brightness relative to other stars.

40:10Neil deGrasse Tyson:So do you have an account for why it's doing it now and it's not doing it regularly? Oh, but you see, we astrophysicists have to be very patient because the time scales for stars to do this kind of stuff, you know, that's like hundreds of thousands of years, you know. and a human... Okay, so you're saying if we'd see it only once in a few thousand years, that could be a regular interval. Yeah. Okay. Alright, she got out of that one, Matt, I think. It's just annoying that we human beings only live for like 100 years. At most, yeah. If we are lucky. In an astronomical time scale, that's instantaneous.

40:55That's very, very short.

40:56Neil deGrasse Tyson:Alright, we've got to take our last break and when we come back, more astro-seism with a professor of astro seismology, Connie Arts, on StarTalk Cosmic Queries.

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42:41Nope, there's more. Luggage, smart glasses.

42:45Neil deGrasse Tyson:Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for$15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of$45 for three-month plan equivalent to$15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. Default terms at mintmobile.com. This is Ken the Nerd Neck Zibera from Michigan, and I support StarTalk on Patreon.

43:22This is StarTalk Radio with Neil deGrasse Tyson.

43:28Neil deGrasse Tyson:We're back for the third and final segment of StarTalk Cosmic Queries, the astro seismology edition. with our expert, a professor of astroseismology, Connie Arts. And she's on sabbatical now at the Flatiron Institute in New York City, which has gathered all manner of computational scientists in multiple fields where they not only compare notes with each other in their own field, but across disciplines, perhaps there's some cross-pollination that can lead to discoveries that wouldn't otherwise happen. And Connie, you are based in the Netherlands and in Belgium. You have two different appointments that, of course, there's strong overlap in what they are.

44:15Neil deGrasse Tyson:But this is very cool that we have you here. We're borrowing you from Europe. And great to have you here in my hometown, New York City. So, Matt, we have a few minutes for a few more questions. Let's see how many more we can slip in. These questions are from our Patreon members still, correct? They are, yeah. so Kevin the sommelier asks does astro seismology coincide with the data we can get from the James Webb space telescope are we able to see those quakes in infrared oh I like that and also then gives a wine recommendation oh yeah because I told him I would not allow him to ask another question if he's going to bill himself as a sommelier there's got to be a recommendation so he recommends specifically for our Belgian guest says with Mulfrit, Kevin recommends a bottle of Muscadet sur le Lagrange.

45:06So there we go. Thank you, Kevin, for that. Okay. That sounds like a dessert wine. All right.

45:10Neil deGrasse Tyson:Let the world know. Okay. We've got the recommendation. So I love that question, Connie. I didn't even think to think about this because I love stellar evolution, but I'm primarily a galaxies guy and a large-scale structure guy, which the James Webb telescope is exquisitely tuned to observe the early universe. And it would never occur to me to imagine if it could be of use to you in thinking about starquakes. So how has your field put your sort of hooks into the data of that telescope? Well, the James Webb is fantastic. But I would not spend its time on starquakes. And so let me explain why. You know, James Webb can pierce very deep into the early universe in the infrared.

45:57But what I need as a seismologist is really long-term measurements. And that's why we love the Kepler mission of NASA and now the test mission and the future Plato mission, because they're staring at stars for years without interruption. And so you don't want to spend James Webb on that because it has, as you say, so much other fantastic extragalactic science to do.

46:22Neil deGrasse Tyson:So I don't want to hook on James Webb, right? Of course, at all times in our field, Matt, we're always judging whether you need one particular telescope for that task versus another telescope that might be either more available or less a cutting edge because you want the cutting edge telescope for the cutting edge science that's going to break open whole new fields typically. So, yeah, that's a very important point that you're mentioning there, Connie. But I want to also ask that's part of the great computational challenge, because if you have a lot of quakes of all different frequencies, short measurements cannot distinguish one from the other.

47:10Neil deGrasse Tyson:Correct? You need a very long baseline so that you can tease out of the data frequencies that are represented enough to know that they're real. Did I characterize that accurately? That's very well described. And in practice, the precision of the frequency goes as one over the total time base of the measurements. So if Kepler measures four years, well, that's one over four years in frequency resolution, as we call it, capacity to unravel these starquake frequencies. So we need to be very, astro-sysmologists are very patient people. So what you're saying is if you – so I like that. So if you measure something for four years, you can't really say much about frequencies that occur on two-year timescales.

48:07Neil deGrasse Tyson:That's right. Because you would have only had one or two cycles in there, and that's not enough to even know if they're real. Yes. So you need enough cycles in your baseline of data to be able to say, yeah, that's real. Yes, it's repeating, and it's reliable. Yeah, that's right. And so that's why we need these long time series, and we can only do the work once we achieve that. So we need dedicated space missions to achieve that. And James Webb is just not one of them. I got it. Interesting. Please leave James Webb to the people who need it, and I'm not one of them. That's very magnanimous of you, yes.

48:43So just to update people, so Kepler was a telescope that looked in one part of the sky looking for Earth-like planets around sun-like stars, studying them for a long period of time.

48:58Neil deGrasse Tyson:TESS, what's that? That's an acronym for what? I forgot. Transiting. Exoplanet. Exoplanet Survey. Satellite. Satellite. Thank you. So TESS will see the entire sky, but not quite to the depth in space that Kepler did. And so now what is PLATO going to do? And is that also an acronym? Yeah, well, PLATO stands for Planetary Transits and Oscillations of Stars. And PLATO is actually going to, from construction, combines the best of both worlds of the Kepler mission and the TESS mission, in the sense that we need long-term observations, but we also need the whole, not the whole sky, but a very, very big part of it to have copies of the Earth in our line of sight that rotate around copies of the sun.

49:47It takes a year for us to revolve. And so Plato has that built-in. It's actually, it's 24 telescopes on one big platform.

49:56Neil deGrasse Tyson:Oh my gosh. Okay, I didn't know that about it. Yeah, so it's a multi-telescope instrument that is being built by the European Space Agency right now. I tend to call it my third child because I've been... You're deep involved in the design and objectives of it. Congratulations for that. Yeah, so that's exciting. I want to see the data before I retire. Kepler was a famous German mathematician who coincided with Galileo, actually, in time. And we all heard of Plato, but I don't know any tests. So tests was an acronym, but not an acronym of a famous scientist of the past. Exactly. Exactly. Okay. So they don't always work out the way you need to.

50:39Well, yeah. Just as long as the machinery works for us, that's the truth. You don't care what the hell you call it. Yeah.

50:46Neil deGrasse Tyson:All right. So Matt, keep it going. What do you have? I am going to, to try and get through as many of these questions as possible, I am going to try and combine four different - Let's ask Connie and see if she can do a lightning round. Here we are. We're combining four questions. They said it couldn't be done, but four different questioners between, because a lot of people have asked about the effect of sunspots on starquakes and how they affect Earth. So Charles Mako asks how they affect starquakes. Trevor Mills says, how close would a nearby star have to be for a starquake to be considered dangerous for Earth?

51:15And then Sarah Rosen says, how big of a CME would it take for the sun's gravity to be negatively affected? And Gina Martin says, why didn't the starquake back in 2004 wipe us out? I've read that it released more energy than our own sun would admit in 150 ,000 years.

51:32Neil deGrasse Tyson:Okay, so let me tighten all those up. So, Connie, clearly there are quakes going on all the time, and I presume that a CME, a coronal mass ejection, is itself detectable as some kind of quake activity. And, of course, sunspots are measures of the activity of the sun. But you haven't mentioned solar flares or coronal mass ejections or sunspots yet, not much, in this conversation. So what role do they play in all of this? Oh, well, the role they play is they disturb the periodic oscillations of the sun. But it's not bad for us. Why not? Because coronal mass ejection or star spots that rotate around, you know, they do not give the same signal in the periodicity of the quakes.

52:26I'm quaking my microphone right now. So, you know, a coronal mass ejection is an abrupt event. It's more like an earthquake, you could say. It happens and it disappears, right? But it doesn't disturb us finding the five-minute oscillations of the sun, which are always there, yeah? They get disturbed abruptly, but then they continue and they continue and they continue all the time. So for us, you know, we can unravel the signal of star spots of mass ejections, even for stars other than the sun, from the always smooth periodic oscillation.

53:08Neil deGrasse Tyson:So how about the dangers that they might pose if you do have a coronal mass ejection that happens to head towards us? Yeah, so the Earth is protected by a magnetic field that protects us from all these high energetic particles falling in on our planet. And other stars are too far away. So, I mean, it's only a matter of the solar quakes. They are not dangerous for us. The coronal mass ejections, they disturb our electronics every once in a while, right? But, you know, that's not a periodic oscillation that I would call solar quakes. I forgot that you enjoy events like that, even if they mess with our computers.

53:49That's how we started. I forgot that.

53:52Neil deGrasse Tyson:I learned that earlier in this podcast. Yeah, yeah, that's true. So that almost counts as a lightning round, Matt, because she answered three questions in one reply. She did. So let's see if we can get a few more in before we call it a day. Yeah, James Allen from Brisbane in Australia says, could a starquake large enough theoretically cause a star to tear apart and would descend a high radiation blast like a supernova? What could we learn such things from our own star? a star quake would not rip apart a star because it's really a smooth nice uh periodic variability you know the the biggest star quakes in terms of expansion and contraction let's say it can make the star become bigger and smaller by about 10 in its radius let's say but not make it explode that's another phenomenon okay again that's people thinking that a quake is a spontaneous bad thing.

54:45Neil deGrasse Tyson:No, it's a fantastic smooth thing. It's a fantastic smooth thing. Well, on that same note, Connor Holm from Squim, Washington says, is it possible to predict where and when a starquake will occur? And if so, what's the largest predicted starquake and how much bigger is it compared to the largest recorded one? Well, starquakes happen all the time. I keep repeating that. So let me ask it differently then. What variety of your oscillations carries the most energy? um well the the the simplest star quakes are radial oscillations you know up and down and up and down so everything is expanding and contracting while keeping spherical symmetry so that's about the the you know the largest energetic uh it can get and that's for me just a simple oscillation because it's and that's what gives us variable stars i guess right yeah yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, so Cephas, Orolyrae, stars.

55:44Yeah, I mean, it's half a star.

55:46Neil deGrasse Tyson:I mean, some huge fraction of stars in the night sky are variable, presumably for this reason. And I heard when I was in graduate school, Connie, that if you looked at every star close enough with sharp enough data, they're all variable. Of course they are. Everything oscillates, of course. So we just have to draw some arbitrary line of what we catalog as a variable star relative to other stars. But really, to you, everybody's got action. Well, we're measuring the action up to parts per million. Yeah, there it is. Right? You got it. Parts per million. You got it. Matt, let's slip one more in before we got a call.

56:30All right. Margaret Defoe from Milwaukee says, why didn't our solar system go binary? and what is the smallest and largest a star can get? So we're on more general questions about stars, I think.

56:40Neil deGrasse Tyson:Yeah, let's hold aside the largest and smallest. That's a whole other astrophysics question. But Connie, what do you say about why the sun is alone when so many stars in the night sky are binary in multiple systems? Yeah, well, if you look at a star with the mass of the sun, then half of them are in binaries. So that means that half of them are alone. So it's a new quotas, right? Yeah? So that's not so exceptional. But if you go to stars... That's not the answer we were looking for. We wanted you to say, we might have had a double and then it blew up. We want a more sci-fi answer. It was originally a twin.

57:19We lost one of them. It ate the other one in the womb. It ate the other one. I don't think so. I don't think so. But that happens frequently when you go to higher masses. If your star is born with 10 to 100 times more mass than the sun was born with, Well, then about 80 % of the stars are multiple, double stars. So for the sun, I think it's just a logical consequence of there only being half of them that live their life together. Okay. Luckily for us, it wouldn't have been so nice here if it would have been living next to a star that has exploded already. Yeah, it has issues.

57:59Neil deGrasse Tyson:but that's definitely a yet-to-be-written sci-fi drama, I think, a sci-fi action film. Whatever happened to the son's twin, you got it. Well, Connie, it's been a delight to have you on StarTalk. And like I said, my city, my town is your town, so I'm a native of New York City. You're visiting for the sabbatical. Maybe we can get you up to the museum and give you a tour and possibly extort a seminar from you for our astrophysics group. I love this city, so I'm very grateful that you're hosting me. Excellent, excellent. Matt, always good to have you, man. It's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.

58:38And this has been great. I've loved hearing about this stuff.

58:40Neil deGrasse Tyson:We've got to land this plane. So thanks for joining us on this episode of StarTalk Cosmic Queries, Starquakes. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, as always, bidding you to keep looking up.

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From the publisher

What is a starquake? On this episode, Neil deGrasse Tyson and comic co-host Matt Kirshen explore asteroseismology, the sun, and what’s happening on the insides of stars with astrophysicist Conny Aerts.

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