Science at Warp Speed: StarTalk Live!

22:45You may have heard the best voice in show business, Morgan Freeman, talking about a serious and underdiagnosed heart condition that's often missed a TTR cardiac amyloidosis or a TTRC-M. It's a condition that can greatly disrupt your life with symptoms like severe fatigue, shortness of breath and carpal tunnel. If left untreated, a TTRC-M may become serious leading to a shorter lifespan. Atrube helps adults with ATTRCM live longer and have fewer hospitalisations due to heart issues so you can focus more on living for what you love. Tell your doctor if you're pregnant, plan to become pregnant or are breastfeeding and about the medications you take.

23:31The most common side effects were mild and included diarrhoea and abdominal pain. If you have ATTRCM, talk to your cardiologist about Atrube and visit atruby.com slash podcast. That's A-T-T-R-U-B-Y dot com slash podcast to learn more. It's time to get busy living. Brought to you by Bridge Bio. I am so happy to welcome NOCO as a sponsor to StarTalk. Established in 1914, NOCO provides industry-leading battery power solutions including jump starters, tire inflators, battery chargers, lithium batteries and a wide range of accessories. Through its innovative design, it provides users with dependable power for home business and recreational needs.

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25:37NoCo. Pick it up at no.co slash GB40. That's N-O dot C-O slash G-B-4-0. Use code StarTalk at no.co for 10 % off while it lasts. That's S-T-A-R-T-A-L-K at N-O dot C-O. Insurance isn't one size fits all. That's why drivers have trusted Progressive's Name Your Price tool for years. Just tell Progressive what you want to pay and they'll show you coverage options that fit your budget. Visit Progressive.com to find a car insurance rate that works for you. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. I'm Joel Cherico, creator of Cosmic Mugs. CosmicMugs.com, art that lets you taste the universe every day.

26:28And I support StarTalk on Patreon. This is StarTalk with Neil deGrasse Tyson.

26:42Neil deGrasse Tyson:So Star Trek, I, you know, any, I don't want to create fights in the audience, but Star Trek cares about real science. Uh-oh. Take that, Sequest! Oh, we don't hate on Sequest. We don't hate on Sequest. Darwin hungry. Darwin hungry. I'm just saying, I don't want to name names, franchises, but Star Trek cares. So how does Star Trek think about dark matter? So what's interesting about Star Trek is because it's been around for 60 years years, you can kind of trace where scientists are based on the science terms that come up. Like, you can kind of look at, like, how we started learning more about genetics.

27:28Like, genetics showed up a ton in Enterprise after they had mapped the genome. Like, all of these things. And so only recently has Star Trek kind of sprinkled in some dark matter stuff. And in Star Trek Discovery, so did you want to talk, do you want to talk about the discovery of dark matter or should I talk about the discovery of dark matter? Okay, so. I can take it from here. Yeah, you got it. Actually, no, you can go. Okay. All right, all right, all right. Yeah.

27:56Neil deGrasse Tyson:But it's not like you don't have dark matter stories. So many. So many. I'll tell you after. Okay, all right. Sounds good. You cue them up and we'll come back to you. Yeah. So Franz Wicke in the 1930s was able to look at sort of distant galaxies and see how they were moving and see how the stars in them were moving. and it appeared that there was more stuff there than how the stars were behaving. And so that's kind of the first origin of that. And then Vera Rubin came along, and she was a great woman astrophysicist, and she was able to... Some Rubin heads. Yeah, Rubin. And map in our own galaxy, showing that the movement of the stars, like that there is dark matter in our own galaxy, and I love Vera Rubin, Rubin head here.

28:40Yeah. And in Star Trek Discovery, we actually named a dark matter nebula after her. because it's called the Veruban Nebula. I was very excited to get that in there. I know. Little shout out. Sounds delicious. I know. Shocking, but there's a lot of overlooked women in physics. Yes. So any opportunity to shine a light on them. Veruban was awesome.

29:00Neil deGrasse Tyson:All right. So we have these things that are kind of mysterious and sci-fi-y. Don't ask me to spell that. Sci-fi-y things, you know. And one of them is antimatter. and many people's first encounter with antimatter was Star Trek because antimatter drives. And what goes on there? So with antimatter, it's one of those things you hear these technical words thrown around and you don't really know what's science and what's science fiction. Antimatter sounds like science fiction, but it is actually a real thing, but it has to do with particles, so I'll let you explain antimatter. Antimatter. Give it to me.

29:39So, okay, it was an interesting case where that was predicted before it was found. And we had Paul Dirac in the 1930s playing around with the equations. But that's two names, Paul Dirac. Yes, first name was Paul, last name was Dirac. Okay, you said Paul Dirac. The sister was Tesseract. He was playing around with the equations of special relativity and quantum mechanics. And he had to take a square root, essentially. And, you know, the square root of 9 is 3, but it's also minus 3.

30:08Neil deGrasse Tyson:Yeah. So he had two answers. Minus three times minus three is also nine. Right. So it has two solutions. And that's kind of close to why he found two solutions when he combined these equations. And one was a positive charge and one was a negative charge that we now identify as the electron and its antimatter particle, the positron. Okay, so as I understand it, he hypothesized that since we are regular matter, there might be a whole other place filled with antimatter. and he also had this idea that there could be an entire sea of particles that correspond to the antimatter and they're they're the matter and we're the antimatter man the weird thing with matter and antimatter though is if you touch you annihilate yourselves and you turn into pure energy so if you met your matter counterpart and you shook hands you energy yeah so don't do that So don't do that.

31:06Just be careful.

31:07Neil deGrasse Tyson:Yeah, yeah. So this is 100 % efficient in converting matter into energy. If a positron meets an electron, they collide and produce pure energy. All their mass disappears and goes into energy by E equals mc squared. Okay, so Star Trek uses matter-antimatter for warp drives. Yes, that is correct. So, strap in, because it's awesome. So, sheet of space time, right? You want to go faster than the speed of light. You can't on the surface of space time. Just to be clear, if you went the speed of light, it would take you 100 ,000 years to cross the galaxy. And that's too much time for a TV show. Yes. So you've got to do that during the TV commercial.

31:50Neil deGrasse Tyson:So how do they pull it off? There you go. Yeah, the nearest star to us is over four light years away. And if you have a five-year mission, it's going to be boring. So to go, there's lots of different ways you can sort of shoot this. It was a five-year mission. I forgot about that. Yeah, it's a five-year mission. Five-year mission. The original series, yeah. To seek out and explore strange new worlds, to boldly go where no man has gone before. We activated it. I'm going to call it this. You're an alien. Wait, wait. So it's a five-year mission, but the show only lasted three seasons. I know. Well, that's a different conversation.

32:21Yeah, yeah, yeah.

32:22Neil deGrasse Tyson:And why do they have all those clothes for a three-hour tour? Catch us up on the warp drives. Okay, so the idea behind warp drives is you can't go faster than light on the surface of space-time, but there's nothing that says that space-time itself can't go faster than the speed of light. And so you wrap a bubble of space-time around your ship, and then that bubble pushes you faster than the speed of light. In order to do that, you need energy, because E equals MC squared. If you don't have mass, if you don't have a bowling ball, you can use an equivalent amount of energy. And in Star Trek, they get that energy from matter-anti-matter collisions.

32:57Most people will conflate dilithium crystals thinking that those are powering the ships, but those are more like control rods for the matter-antimatter reactions. They keep it stable. But there's lots of, like, once we start poking holes in it, we're going to, like, how can you contain antimatter, right? So, right, if you put antimatter in a bottle and not an antibottle, the positrons in the antimatter would see the electrons in the bottle and they would annihilate and give off a lot of energy so how do you carry around antimatter so one way we saw in the movie angels and demons

33:38Neil deGrasse Tyson:oh yeah I remember that the priest who played the priest in that Ewan McGregor he's walking around with this vial the Vatican has the only vial of antimatter and I'm looking at it and it's like Dan Brown did not take any physics in his entire life. The author of this story. First, we make antimatter all the time in labs. The Vatican does not have a particle accelerator in his basement. I assure you of that. Okay? And so they're thinking that this is but he's walking around with a vial. But that part I think was reasonable. They had magnetic fields made by superconducting magnets and the idea is that you the antimatter just spins in a circle and never touches any walls.

34:22It just sits there in a vacuum and it's totally fine. How do you hold it in real life? We have things, traps, penning traps, pall traps, they have specific names, but they're basically magnetic or electric bottles.

34:34Neil deGrasse Tyson:A magnetic bottle. Right. Okay, so then it just sees the magnetic field, which does not matter. So therefore, it will not annihilate. Exactly. Magnets, bitch. Right? Do you get that reference? Yeah. Nobody knows how they work. Well, yeah, that. All right. So, okay. I got the wrong reference. For the benefit of the audience, I just want to measure the scale of energy we're talking about here. So, in Oppenheimer, they built the first atomic bomb. How efficient was that conversion of matter to energy? So, in the first atomic bomb, I'm sorry, it's kind of sad to talk about, but there's dozens of kilograms of uranium.

35:15only about 1 % of that uranium underwent fission which is how you get the energy out so 99 % didn't even know it was a bomb and of that 1 % only about 0.1 % of the mass of the uranium is converted into energy by E equals mc squared or by the fragments of uranium flying apart

35:35Neil deGrasse Tyson:So as devastating as that bomb was it's a fraction of the energy that it might have had Had it used all the uranium it would have been 100 times more powerful. There's really no way with fission, for the reactions that do happen, you just happen to get about 0.1 % out. Okay, so now next up was fusion, which was alluded to as the next wave of warfare in Oppenheimer. So fusion is combining deuterium and tritium and smaller, instead of taking large nuclei in atoms and breaking them apart, you can also get energy out of combining small nuclei. You can do this all the way up to iron in both directions.

36:10Neil deGrasse Tyson:So how efficient is that, going up from hydrogen? So that's a few percent more. One of the ways a fusion bomb people don't always realize is that a lot of that's still fission. The fusion is making neutrons, and those neutrons are hitting uranium outside, and then those are fissioning. And probably about half the energy released is still coming from fission. Okay, so whatever these are, these are percentages. Yeah, very small percentages. Whereas matter, antimatter is 100%. Right. Okay, so why don't we just have all antimatter energy sources in the world today? Well, I did say dozens of kilograms, right?

36:43So you would need... What does antimatter cost? What was it cost? How much you got?

36:51We can buy antimatter? If we think about it... Is that what you're asking? On the dark web. Yeah. There you go. Oh, good boy. There you go. The dark matter one. Oh, oh, oh. Oh, oh. Oh, oh.

37:03Neil deGrasse Tyson:We're fissioning now, boy. Oh. He's going to get antimatter on the dark web. Okay. That was good. All right. It depends how you get it, because, for example, your body is making antimatter right now. There's potassium in your bones, and about, usually decays to electrons, but about once every few seconds, there's potassium in your bones that's producing a positron or antimatter. So that would be free. You just have to catch it. So one gram of this might cost how much? But if you had to make it at an accelerator, and it was a hundred million dollar accelerator, and you're making nanograms, we're talking a lot of money.

37:41You could say an astronaut.

37:43Neil deGrasse Tyson:You're a physicist. I expect you to quantify that answer. You're not President Bush. Make with the data. We just said 100 million divided by nano. Oh, okay. So that's 10 to the 8. So 10 to the 12. Trillions. I was right. No, way more than trillions. You were doing it? No one heard it. I loved it. I heard it. What did you say? You are not. Quadrillions. And overlooked women in physics. We're up at quadrillions, I think, of dollars per... Gram. Okay, so there's not that much money in the world. And that's in my body right now?

38:26That's all I heard. Did you just see me in the parking lot with a styrofoam cup and a lighter? How do I get it? So who's the buyer?

38:38Neil deGrasse Tyson:Where's the drop? There it is. So, Erin, what is...I've heard in Star Trek they reference subspace. Yes. What is that? So subspace is... It's fictional. Yes, subspace is fictional. It's a website that helps people get paid to write. Relax. Wait, so subspace is fictional. Dilysium crystals are fictional. Antimatter is real. Well, subspace is...the concept is real. It's just the fictional term hasn't been a...it's basically the area out there. outside of the trampoline, however you want to think of that. Everywhere outside the trampoline is subspace. And that's how they communicate faster than light in Star Trek, because again, if you want to communicate, fastest you can go is send a signal at the speed of light, but they create subspace buoys that poke through the trampoline and then talk to each other faster than the speed of light, which is awesome.

39:29But thanks. Because you're all clearly impressed by it. No, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, are we confused if that's real? Huh? Did we know that's not real? So the idea of additional dimensions is a real concept. We don't call it subspace. That's what Star Trek calls it. And the physics of the idea of subspace buoys is solid, but it doesn't exist. We don't know how to get out of our own universe into subspace. Yeah. Does that help? Yeah. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. I appreciate that.

40:01Neil deGrasse Tyson:So, Shere, you had Trekkie parents. Yeah. Did any of that spill out onto you? Or would you just have weird, geeky parents, and you were the artist in the family? I'm still geeky. Next Generation was my show. Oh, okay. Yeah. And, yeah. And they gave the one black guy on the bridge, he had the full vision. There were two black guys on the bridge. Okay, you're right. Sorry, sorry. Thank you. Thank you. So, Jordi LaForge had that visor, they called it, which is acronym time. Who's got the acronym? Oh, gosh. Wait, is it the visor? Visual, integrative, sensor, overload, resource. Optical. Optical. Pulling that out of your ass.

40:49Neil deGrasse Tyson:I did, but I bet it's resource. I bet it's resource. He was half right. Yeah, we were so close. LIDAR assumption symmetry. Yes. ER George Clooney. So it's a self-driven acronym. So he was able to see the entire electromagnetic spectrum. And so was he one of your favorite people? Willie Goldberg was one of my favorite people. Oh, we love Whoopi. Wasn't she the bartender? In the canteen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Blue Milk. Yeah. What is that? What was Blue Milk? Wrong franchise. Nope. They all have it. You're right. I love it. You got it. I take it back. Sequest regular milk. Yeah. Wow. We're having our own show.

41:35You've got them having to sing, have they? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Blue Milk is, yeah, very Star Wars. But yeah, my parents really, yeah, I feel like Star Trek was very much in our household. And like, you know, my mom would braid my hair while we're watching the show. And my dad, I remember asking him one time, I don't know why I asked him, but I was like, where are you from? Or like, where'd you grow up or something? And he was like...

41:56Neil deGrasse Tyson:You asked your father this. Yeah, we didn't know each other that well. Okay, okay. Okay. you know just getting to know him and he said he's a Vulcan and then he speaks Vulcan I never heard it but wait he does that's what he said which you know my parents divorced later and my mom was like we are not like great at communicating with each other and I was like that makes a lot of sense two consecutive sentences my father speaks Vulcan my parents divorced later. Doesn't that make sense? How does that not track? That is the most convoluted I'm going out for a pack of cigarettes I've ever heard. And never come back.

42:44Right. I speak Vulcan. Goodbye. That was weird. Gotta go home. I was actually embarrassed to have a name from Star Trek. So when I was a kid I would tell people oh it's a crystal from far away.

42:58Neil deGrasse Tyson:Because it wasn't actual the name of a It wasn't the name of a character, no. So after Captain Kirk gave a rose to this princess, she was like, we have something like this on my planet, except it's made out of crystal. Is this an alien he had just boned? He was trying to bone. He was courting. Courting, okay. Yeah, yeah. Okay, gotcha. So she gives him a flower. He gave her a rose. A rose. I guess a plant that looks like an earth rose. An earth rose, yeah. And she was like, we have something that looks like this on my planet, but it's made out of crystal. And that's called the? Sashir. Sashir. That's so cool.

43:34Neil deGrasse Tyson:That's beautiful. Yeah, that is. That's a cool story. It's a little rude. Someone's like, look at my flower. He's like, we got this, but it's better. It's kind of what that's, ours is crystals. Yeah, this one dies. So do we have actual, I mean, other than Star Trek and hyperspace and all of this, do we have actual anything on the books that could get us going faster than light, Erin? It's all theoretical, but the math checks out. So things like wormholes. Wormholes are a math construct. Love me some wormholes. And that would allow you to shortcut a distance and space and time. Love me some wormholes.

44:11We do love wormholes.

44:12Neil deGrasse Tyson:Yeah, yeah, we can, in principle, wormholes are makeable if we had negative gravity stuff, which we don't have. Yes, and enough energy to bend it. But they may exist naturally. We just don't know how to find them. We don't know what to look for. but again the math checks out. So that doesn't require engines or anything, you're just stepping through. You're just walking through, yeah. And what else do we have? Tell me about tachyons. So there's particles that are called tachyons if a particle goes faster than the speed of light. We've never seen one. We don't know that such a thing exists. So you're just making this up.

44:45That's just a word. So not me, I'm experimentalists, those are theorists. But they're talking about a particle and you're particle physicists. Well, just because they name it doesn't mean it exists. Wow. Good point. That was some real theoretical physicist Shane that you just threw down. It's actually, I think it's 10-sempire. I don't know what's that about. It did feel pretty intense. There's actually a good reason particles don't go faster than the speed of light, because as long as nothing can go faster than the speed of light, we never violate what's called causality, meaning that if I press a button, a light turns on.

45:19And any observer moving around the universe will always see me pressing the button before the light turns on. We might disagree about how far apart they were. We might disagree about the time difference between them. But if A caused B, no one will see B happening before A. As soon as we start communicating with tachyons, if they existed, that will go out the window. So you would lose causality. So I don't even know how you would live in a universe that you can have faster than light communication. If you're going to detect them, they'll be detected before you turn the detector on. No, no, you'll be detected before they were sent.

45:53Before they were sent, yes. Which is like wild and Star Trek uses tachyons. So you may have heard that word because Star Trek uses tachyons all the time And that is another thing that is a physics concept and theoretical physicist over here but they But we don't know how to detect them But like you said the causality Star Trek is pretty consistent with how they use tachyons because anytime they break Causality like through time travel when they break those rules tachyons show up so like when Janeway came through the wormhole at the end of Star Trek Voyager Thank you. They detected a surge of tachyons first, and then this wormhole opened, and it was because they were violating causality, because that's what Janeway does.

46:35Neil deGrasse Tyson:We love the form. And of course, tachyon has the Greek root tachyos, meaning fast, like a tachometer. These are the same roots to that word. But I just want to clarify here that, according to Einstein, you cannot accelerate past the speed of light. but that doesn't stop a particle from being birthed faster than light, so never had to cross the boundary. Okay. So we're okay there. You're okay? Don't look at me like you're a practical guy. And based on that, you are the killer this season on CBS.

47:15I don't know. I don't know how you get around the causality problem still.

47:18Neil deGrasse Tyson:So here it is. You ready? You're walking down the road And you slip on a banana peel And I say you're my friend I don't want you to slip on the banana peel So I invoke tachyon texting Okay And I send you This is after it happened So I send you a tachyon text You get it before you slip on the banana peel And your phone alerts you You look down at the phone And it says watch out for the banana peel And you're not looking at where you're going And you slip on the banana peel Oh man That is a closed time loop. What's really going to bake your noodle is Woody would have broken it if I hadn't said anything.

47:53Exactly. Right? Thank you, Matrix lady. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You're a prominent African-American science fiction character. I'm very sorry to bother you.

48:07Neil deGrasse Tyson:So, to me, that's my favorite tachyon example. That you actually cause the person to slip on the banana. It's like a rival, too, right? I like that. Yeah. Oh, an rival. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She was pretty tachyony. Yeah, in her interpretations of the past, present, and future. But she whispers a thing to a guy that hadn't... Yeah, there was some of that in it. Definitely tachyons involved. I got a definite from her. All right, so, and plus there was a Mexican physicist named Alcubierre. Yep. Tell me about the Alcubierre drive. Yeah, so Alcubierre... Was he in the United States and they deported him?

48:47Neil deGrasse Tyson:Is that what happened? Just kidding. Jesus. Oh, no. Just kidding. Jesus. It's my duty as a comedian to join you in the riff. I must. Oh, no. I couldn't leave you out there. By the way, one-third of all Nobel Prizes in the sciences that have been earned by Americans were earned by American immigrants. There you go. A third. Yeah. A third. Yeah. These are foreign-born nationals becoming American citizens, earning the Nobel Prize for Merca. Merca. Merca. Apostrophe M-U-R-R-R-I-C-A. So he's a Mexican physicist. Yes. Tell me about this drive. So he kind of, motivated by Star Trek, was like, well, could we build?

49:34It's a neat idea. Is this possible? And so did the math to try to figure out if it was possible to have a warp drive. using the manipulation of space-time? And the answer was yes, and that's what we call the Alcuberre drive. And so he published a paper about this, and what was funny about it is...

49:50Neil deGrasse Tyson:So it's an authentic physics paper. It is a physics... The physics of warp drive checks out. Like, it checks out. And he was sort of the first one to come up with a good concept of how you make physics laws happy when you're doing this, and they did. In other words, not to violate known laws of physics that apply, so you dance around that if you can. Conservation laws and all those sort of things. And so the issue with it is, remember I said earlier, if you want to bend space-time but you don't have the matter, you could use the energy. So the question is, well, how much matter and antimatter are you going to need?

50:23How much energy is going to be used to build this warp drive? And the first calculation that they did of this, the answer was all of it. All of what? Energy. All energy matters. Ever existed. the number was so high that they were just like uh-oh that that's not great nobody needs to go anywhere that bad exactly and and a lot of it was just because of all the manipulation of space time and so that they kind of like go back to the drawing board as it were go through the equations and figure out that you can do the same thing without breaking any laws of physics uh with about the energy equivalent of a semi-truck being torn and like e equals mc squared the mass is a semi-truck.

51:05But as we talked about earlier, the amount of matter used for an atomic bomb, like multiply that to the side of a semi-truck. And that's why Zephram Cochran is hitting the juice. I'm not going to strap myself into that anytime soon. But that's our big limiter to how we don't have warp drive now. The math is fine, theoretically, it all checks out. But we just don't have any understanding of how to obtain and hold and manipulate all of that energy in order to do it. Detecting gravitational waves is actually seeing the motion of space-time. That's starting to get us there in terms of how do we start playing with space-time.

51:45So this is all just things that lie in front of us, and they're just unknowns of how long it's going to take.

51:49Neil deGrasse Tyson:What you're saying is we'll never have warp drives. Be positive. I say 2063 is probably pushing it, but if we make a huge discovery in energy, maybe we do find a way to more efficiently capture antimatter. That's a different conversation. I'm looking at his facial expressions while you speak. They put us as far away as possible on purpose. Yeah, we kept them separate from here. The serious and the experimentalists, yeah.

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56:12Neil deGrasse Tyson:So we've also heard things about higher dimension. I love me some higher dimension. Love. I love higher dimension. What? What? I just like the way you say it. It's very casual. Oh, yeah. So we live in three spatial dimensions, up, down, left, right, forward, back, right? And then there's a time dimension in there. And so these are our four-dimensional realities. And if you're not completely comfortable with thinking that we live in four dimensions, I'll convince you right now, okay? If someone comes up to you and say, I'll meet you tomorrow at Starbucks. What time? That's a place, but it's not a time.

56:54Neil deGrasse Tyson:You need the space. And if I say, I'll meet you tomorrow at 10 o 'clock. Where? The four dimensions of our space-time reality are built into our language and our capacity to encounter one another, even if you didn't know it. And one thing that Zoom did during COVID is it broke that space-time continuum. That really checks out. No, no, no. No, no. Here it is. We've all had that meeting. No, no. All you needed. No, think about it. It's called your world line, where you are in space and time. And if you want to meet someone, your world lines have to intersect. You have to be at the same place and the same time.

57:41Neil deGrasse Tyson:You can cross a street where trucks have been, but you're not killed by the truck. You're in the same place, but at a different time. This I'm following. Okay? We're good. So, what Zoom did only required that you be at the same time, not in the same place. And you still had the encounter. So that, I was deeply moved by this fact. Yeah. Okay, so. This is how they felt about phone sex. You can get it anywhere now. Anywhere, payphone, cell phone, car phone. Payphone? Who's doing it at a payphone? Yeah. Okay, so. Desperatized. Desperatized. See, we're bound by the laws of yesterday. So what I'm saying is, so the universe, particle physicists tell us, is more than these four dimensions.

58:36Oh, maybe. So my students and I looked for extra dimensions at the Large Hadron Collider. The particle is called a radion. Say that again. A radion. It was another case of just because you name it doesn't mean it existed. We didn't find it. If we found it, if we'd found it, there'd be one more Nobel Prize in the denominator of your fraction. Okay. We didn't find it. But we look, and the idea is, Remember how we talked about Paul Dirac was combining the equations of special relativity and quantum mechanics? Well, more modern physicists have tried to combine the full equations of general relativity with quantum mechanics.

59:15It was a bit harder. And to make that work, they needed to add extra dimensions. Now, obviously, there's nothing more that we experience in up, down, left, right, etc., as you said. So the idea is that they'd be really small, so we missed them. How convenient! I know, I know. Particle physicists. So they started with the idea there would be 26 extra dimensions. And then they said, well, that seems like a lot. But then they had this idea called supersymmetry, where every particle has a partner. Just like matter and antimatter, every particle would have a supersymmetric particle. We haven't found that yet.

59:53That lowered the number of extra dimensions. Do we only need 10 total dimensions? So we're down to 10. 10 as long as this other symmetry exists that we've never found. Or we could just smoke some DMT and be done with it. Have you considered that you're the particle collider man?

1:00:15Neil deGrasse Tyson:So here's my favorite example of interdimensionality, if I may. You may. Then you'll understand why I say I love some dimensions, okay? I like it. Okay, so if we lived just in a flat plane, two dimensions, all right, and all of a sudden someone noticed a dot just appear out of nowhere, and then it grew, became like a circle, and then it shrunk back down to another dot and then disappeared completely, we'd be scratching our heads, what is this? You know what that is? That is a sphere moving through, a three-dimensional sphere moving through the two dimensions of your world. And it manifests as something that's not there.

1:01:02Neil deGrasse Tyson:It appears and then disappears. So when your particles pop in and out quantum mechanically, I wonder, is there some higher dimensional existence that's passing through our space-time? And we just happen to get a glimpse every now and then. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe, that's your best answer, maybe? After my whole poem. I loved it, I loved it. I feel you. Thank you. I'm mad. I thought I'd get more than one word answer from that guy here. Well, I think you've gotta make, it's science, you have to make a prediction. And the more surprising the prediction, the better. And then we will go look for it. And that's, the idea can sound great, the idea can, but it has to be the way the world works.

1:01:45Neil deGrasse Tyson:Okay, Pete and I will work on it, and we'll work on it. But wait, if there are these other dimensions, there could be other versions of us. Are they like other universes in a way? Because in the Netflix series Stranger Things. Heard of it. It's fifth season now. It's, they have it upside down? What is that? Did you know what that, have you seen the show? I have seen the show. I don't understand all of it, but they do have upside down. And it's upside down. So, Shira, I'm going to say. It's underneath. It's like, you know, we're up here. Oh, we're up here? And then they're, okay, so like. It's like an alternate reality.

1:02:22Flip it around. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:02:25Neil deGrasse Tyson:Okay, so then, so what's there? I didn't think I would ever see that again. Thank you. I'm bringing it back. So what's there in the upside down world? Creepy. Monsters. Demogorgons. Cookie. It's like a black, scary, stormy. The trees are black.

1:02:42Black? It's very dark.

1:02:45Neil deGrasse Tyson:Dark. Dark. Dark. Yeah. Thank you. Okay. Well, what's, I mean, so... So, what? How did... Oh, but they communicate. How did they get access to this? This upside-down world? They opened a portal to another dimension. And then they communicate through, like, the Christmas lights. But I like the upside-down idea, because it is like they... You just multiply everything by minus one, which is kind of the original multiverse question, which was like, but what if goatees and evil? Like, that was Star Trek, right? They had the mirror universe, which was just our universe just flipped upside down. Yeah.

1:03:23That means there's another...

1:03:24Neil deGrasse Tyson:If you had a goatee, you were bad. Yeah, exactly. There's another version of this podcast happening where we're all hanging like bats from our feet. And we all have goatees. We have goatees. Exactly. I haven't seen it, but it sounds like I heard they opened it with a particle accelerator. Is that right? In Stranger Things. In Stranger Things. Yeah, I think they did. Yeah, I think. but... I'll just say, you say black hole, particle, neutrino, you can kind of do whatever you want. Get to the demons, get to Winona Ryder. We don't care. We're good. Right? I mean, you care. That's your job to care.

1:03:58A little bit, yeah. We're sort of out here going like, who cares?

1:04:01Neil deGrasse Tyson:Wait, so, but there's some mixed things here. So we have this upside down world. Is it another dimension or is it Is it in the multiverse? Right? So we've heard a lot about the multiverse, and Marvel has run with it in the multiverse. Right. Right? Infinite multiverse. With no missteps! Has Star Trek picked up the multiverse? Yeah, so they did. In The Next Generation, there was an episode where Worf is going through a quantum fissure, which I would probably push back on the language of that, just because that's quantum doesn't... Anyway. And then sees all these different versions of what would happen where he's married to Deanna Troi and there's a birthday cake at one point.

1:04:46And there's all these different things. And so we did in more recent seasons in Lower Decks, season five, which, yeah, that show's great. I'm biased, but it's a great show. But we brought that multiverse concept back and they do a cool explanation with it. What is Lower Decks? Star Trek Lower Decks. Oh, I'm sorry. Duh. animated shows. I'm a fan of Star Trek Upper Decker, but I don't know.

1:05:13Neil deGrasse Tyson:Wait, so David... To boldly go. Don't you split your infinitives on my stage. Did they fix the split infinitives in the later presentation? To go boldly? Yes. No, it's Star Trek. I thought they tidied up that. In the future, split infinitives are a different thing. So, David, we think of these multiverses as, oh, I have a goatee or not, or somebody's married to someone else. But really, as I understand multiverses, it's quantum forged so that there'd be variations, not just in who you marry, but in the actual laws of physics that we'd find in those universes, which would make it really hard to set up life again as you come to know it.

1:06:00Well, the last part you said is the key part, as we come to know it. we don't know what else we would call life. Damn. Maybe we don't. Maybe it's not made of atoms. Maybe it's something else. You have lots of other chances in whatever that universe is that you've made in its own rules. Is there going to be some local collection of matter that locally lowers entropy at the expense of expending heat? Which is what we do here in our universe. And that's basically a lot of what you need to have life. So maybe there'll be something that would satisfy our criteria. I'll give you that,

1:06:35Neil deGrasse Tyson:but is it you're married to someone different? I'm thinking not. It's other kinds of creatures. Sure, we're not atoms, but who are we? I think there's... Are we horny? There's like different kinds of multiverses, and I think that like different multiverse theories, and one is where the laws of physics would just be different in one universe, and then there's that like genuinely infinite concept of multiverses where however it's structured, there is, and it's really hard to wrap your brain around the concept of infinite, that everything is exactly the same but one, and then... Because if you have an infinite number of those kind of universes, any variation will exist.

1:07:18Neil deGrasse Tyson:And you can find the universe for which that is true. Right. There you go. Okay. But those would have the same laws of physics in that... Exactly. In that concept, yeah. That's why they're kind of different theories, but I love multiverses. All right, well, let's tackle the biggest topic here, which is the storytelling in science fiction. And, Sashir, I heard you comment on, when you saw some, was it the Jetsons? What did the Jetsons mean to you when you first saw them?

1:07:56Was it the Jetsons?

1:07:58Neil deGrasse Tyson:I don't know. I was just thinking, how funny would it be if you didn't talk about this before? That's what's happening.

1:08:10What are you talking about?

1:08:14Neil deGrasse Tyson:So it was, if you look at 100 % of future sci-fi storytelling. Oh, I know what you're talking about. Okay. Well, when I watched the Jetsons, I was like, where are the black people? Where are anyone but white people? And that is also how I felt about a lot of sci-fi growing up. We didn't really see brown people in the future, which makes it feel like we don't belong there. And I mean, it's definitely changing now, which is so wonderful to see more representation in stories about our future. because we belong there.

1:09:00Neil deGrasse Tyson:So, yeah, I guess I wasn't thinking that because just everybody... Is that what you wanted? No, no, no, I'm just saying... That is hilarious. No, no, no, I'm just saying... You gave him exactly what he wanted. No, no, no. No, no, no, just when I was a kid. No, I'm just saying when I was a kid, it's just everybody on TV was white. so that was just that universe that's all so I wasn't I thought it was weird that today we have self driving cars but they didn't have self driving cars in the Jetsons he had to fly his own car I thought that was weird even at the time I thought that was and why did Rosie the maid have to wear an apron to cover her vagina You know?

1:09:51Neil deGrasse Tyson:Yeah. She's a robot. You're gonna love the answer.

1:09:59Neil deGrasse Tyson:So in storytelling, in Star Trek, what I've always admired about it is each story was a bit of a morality tale, a little bit of a mirror held up to whatever was going on back here on Earth. And there was, I just sort of value when you can tell that kind of story. Otherwise, what are you doing? It's just fantasy in the future. And for me, good literature, you can bring it home in some way and have it mean something to you and have it mean something to your society. Well, I think what's great about Star Trek II is that it is very explicitly humans on Earth in the future, as opposed to just some other universe or galaxy or whatever thing.

1:10:41It is like, this is where Earth is going to go. This is what people will be doing, and this is what it looks like, and these are the people who have jobs. And for 1966, it was a really big deal, not just to have Nichelle Nichols, and I'm not undermining the importance of that by any means.

1:10:54Neil deGrasse Tyson:Plus, if you look at her title, her military title as lieutenant means she is in the path of succession to be captain. Yep, yeah. Even though that never happened. The fact is, that was a real possibility to even have such a title and not be the janitor. So how do any of us feel, and you coming at this from the liberal arts, I'm curious. I'm a big fan of, Mark Twain has a saying, first get your facts straight then distort them at your leisure. And to me that should be instructions for the artist who has access to science. And so do any of us, I'd like to get an opinion here do you feel how much science can or should be sacrificed for the sake of a good story that you want to tell?

1:11:40Neil deGrasse Tyson:You sound like you got to... I always felt, my job was not to be the science police my job was to be a resource to the people that were actually telling the story. So I would tell them if something wasn't correct, but I wouldn't, and maybe give some other ideas. But it's the idea, it's what universe any particular story is. If I had consulted on Back to the Future, I might have told them, you know, we really don't know how to do time travel, and it probably wouldn't work. And then it wouldn't have been a very good movie. You'd have been fired that afternoon. Yeah. But he's mourning for his mother.

1:12:14You're ruining the story. How's he going to want to f*** his mother? The way I like to think of it is like science fiction is a huge spectrum between science and fiction, and every story is going to pick somewhere on that and say this is where we're going to land. But I think that quote is perfect and really apt for how you integrate science into story is that you get the foundation or the backbone of science and then build the story around that. but when you're in those decision rooms and maybe the budget doesn't work or maybe we have to change something the story comes first then the characters then the science i was talking with william shatner

1:12:51Neil deGrasse Tyson:about the transporter and he said they invented that so that they didn't have to have lower ramps and land and it was too costly yeah just beam beam them in and get on with the show so there There was a cost provision there. Except the problem is it murders the person and recreates them on the planet. So would you get in one? It's not great. It's not great. Now you're telling me this? Yeah. This is awkward. I teleported here. So you don't exist, and then you get reassembled on the other side. I think the information, if I understand, goes down, but not you. So I think they've murdered you and recreated it.

1:13:37Neil deGrasse Tyson:Wait, wait, what are you, if not the sum of the information that comprises you? Uh-oh, you believe in a soul. Sorry. Sorry, science guy. Got you. Whoops. All right, so on one of my... He's busted right there. So on one of my two cameos on the Big Bang Theory, my first of the two, there were... You have the whiteboards throughout the show, right? And there are equations on those boards. Right. And someone on set told me that you had found equations from my research to put them up there, but they were not my equations. There's someone else named Tyson in modern astrophysics. His name is Tony Tyson.

1:14:28Neil deGrasse Tyson:I call him Cousin Tony affectionately. But those were his equations. I'm not buying that. I remember finding your PhD thesis and using it. Oh. Uh-oh. Someone doesn't recognize their own thesis. Oh. Too long in trailers and show business. We're not about the math. Or. Or I got Tony Tyson's thesis. Thank you. There it is. There's an alternative universe there. We'll find out. Okay, how about this? Have our team of researchers get on this. According to Aaron, there is a universe in which you did it correctly. let's imagine that that was it and so just in terms of storyline in the final episode I think it was of the final season of the Big Bang Theory Sheldon who's like the smart one with multiple degrees teams up with his wife Amy Farrah Fowler who in real life is Mayim Bialik who's a real life neuroscientist she has a PhD in real life plays a neuroscience scientist on the show.

1:15:35Neil deGrasse Tyson:They collaborate with some new kind of physics that I couldn't follow. But did you advise on that? Yeah, I did. And it was actually one of the rare cases where they gave me a lot of warning. Usually it's like, we're doing a script tomorrow, put some science in it. And this time they told me, we're actually... That's funny. That is nice. That's good. Classic Chuck. Yeah. But this time they actually gave me a warning and said they need some Nobel Prize-worthy discovery. Go. You're like, look, if I could, I'd have a Nobel Prize. I wouldn't waste it on your show. And I wouldn't retire a year before it was given.

1:16:13Oh, no. Oh, no. That was deep. That was deep. You have it. Just tell people you have it. We'll never look it up. Thank you. Oh.

1:16:27Neil deGrasse Tyson:So I remembered something like super... Super asymmetry. Asymmetry. Instead of supersymmetry. And we've been talking about supersymmetry. That's been a theory since before I was a graduate student. People have been looking for evidence of this theory forever. I looked it up. There's about 10 ,000 papers with the title containing supersymmetry and another 10 ,000 carrying the title supersymmetric. But then it came to me. Super asymmetry. And I was like, are there any papers? Zero papers with that title. Nice. Oh. That was their new theory. Okay, so that gave you a space in which to operate that was new.

1:17:09Neil deGrasse Tyson:Right, exactly. Okay. I mean, I can explain what in my mind the theory was, but it's not Nobel Prize. But it was good enough for the show. Yeah. Yeah. The idea is like, in real physics, is where are the supersymmetric particles? Where is this partner of the electron? We know it's antimatter partner. We can't find it supersymmetric. So it's a symmetry that is broken. So people make the symmetry, theoretically, and then it's broken to explain why we don't see it. And the idea of their theory is that it's not symmetric and then broken, but it starts asymmetric. Just clarify here. Just clarify. Please don't ask me more questions.

1:17:52Neil deGrasse Tyson:No, okay. No, clarify something else. What does it mean to break symmetry? That implies that things are a certain way that you like, and then they're different, and you say they're broken. But if nature is that, what does it mean for nature to be broken if that is nature? Maybe it's your understanding that's broken. I like this a lot. I like that. Well, we have... He's easy. He's not yelling at him. It's fake. I know. We have broken symmetries all the time in just ordinary mundane physics, like a magnet. The laws of magnetism have no preferred direction. But when you pick up a magnet, it does point a particular direction.

1:18:36It chose a direction. And once it started to form the magnetic field one way, it was reinforced. And that's the direction that the magnet has. So we see symmetry breaking all the time in physics. We start with something symmetric, but the actual instances we see are broken. Now drop your mic. That's why they give it to you.

1:19:00Neil deGrasse Tyson:My favorite fact about magnets is, you know, there's a North Pole and a South Pole. Okay. You got that? Okay. Are we together on that? Okay. I guess. Okay. Okay. And opposite poles attract. Yep. I like that you're looking at me. Okay.

1:19:25Neil deGrasse Tyson:So if you have two magnets, the north will connect, will point to the south. Okay. So now you take the magnet, suspend it from a string, and the magnet, the north pole of the magnet, will point to Earth's north magnetic pole. but it's supposed to repel north to north. So the fact that the north pole of a magnet points to Earth's north pole means Earth's south magnetic pole is in the north. And our north magnetic pole is in the south. Yes. I like that. I didn't get it but I like it. Every few hundred thousand years they flip and we're overdue. Oh. Well, that's comforting. We don't have enough on our plate right now.

1:20:17I got to be waiting for the poles to flip. Great. I'll tell that to my daughter next time I'm reading her a bedtime story. Just so you know, we're overdue. Good night.

1:20:32Neil deGrasse Tyson:So tell me about future tech. Because I have on good authority that the first sort of flip phone by Motorola was inspired by the communicator in Star Trek. Thank you. Teamwork. You guys get a room, okay? Not without you, Neil.

1:20:57Neil deGrasse Tyson:So he just thought that was cool. It was an engineer with Motorola. And we had cell phones before that, but they weren't flip phones, and they weren't that small. So this is science fiction-inspiring design. Yeah, we had clamshells.

1:21:19You don't think a caveman ever went, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

1:21:26Neil deGrasse Tyson:Imagine? so you know the tricorder yep tell everyone what the tricorder is yeah it's a well the medical tricorder is what we commonly think of but that's sort of like the medical device that they hover over and they go like oh no we have a problem and so it's a touchless diagnostic tool science Reiki and it's a thing that like we loves Reiki we've wanted it so is like It is, right? Okay, but there's an X Prize for the first tricorder. Yeah. So the X Prize is money gathered, and it's given to, and then people compete for a device that you can hover over a person, and it'll diagnose your, get your vitals.

1:22:12Yeah, so this prize that they offered, it was like you had to, the numbers are approximate, but you had to pick up like five to eight vital signs and be able to diagnose a handful of ailments. without touching someone, like just with scanning it. And someone won it. Like they have that ability. Elizabeth Holmes did it. No, she didn't. Perfectly clear. Sweet Theranos riff, bro. Yeah. But what's neat is that idea of necessity driving invention. And, you know, we went through a period where we didn't really want to be in close contact with a lot of really sick people. And so that sort of moves that machine.

1:22:52And just because it was invented, it's like that technology exists, but it's the size of a house.

1:22:58Neil deGrasse Tyson:Somebody's got to be motivated who's thinking about the future. And you have creative futurists doing just that. And storytellers that can have all of us participate in that. So I'm old enough to be the first Trek series, okay? Like Captain Kirk, that one. And I, so I, the warp drives, check. Okay, photon torpedo, check. That's the future for sure. And I was just going down the list and then they just walk up to a door and it just automatically opens. And I said, no, that'll never happen. So don't ever take future predictions from me, right? Because that was the least believable thing. That's how old I am.

1:23:42Neil deGrasse Tyson:Doors didn't automatically, you had to physically open the door yourself. Okay? This is the first time you rode the subway in New York. You were like, ah! Ah! No, no. No, I'm not talking about, I'm not talking about doors that do open automatically. I'm talking about doors that know you're approaching the door, and then they open. That the subway doesn't know you're there. I understand. Grocery store, then. Yeah. That's the first time I had touch sensitive pads. They had pads on the Enterprise. They were just the same color as the carpet. That was the whole foods in space. So I'm just wondering what the future might bring.

1:24:22Neil deGrasse Tyson:What do we need out of the future? We want the molecule thing that makes a hamburger. The what? Replicator. Oh, the replicator. Yeah, I think that's the one we're closest to that we don't have yet. Honestly, because 3D printer technology has gotten so good and efficient and smaller. And I never thought I would own a 3D printer. Now I have three because I'm that type of person. Nice. You have three 3D printers? Well, the first one printed the other differently. No, no, no. You missed it. It's one for every dimension. Oh, very good. There you go. Yeah, exactly. But also, the food science and things like discovering the protein responsible for red meat.

1:25:01They can do this? We're getting there in these advances that maybe one day we can print a burger that will take 25 hours and taste horrible. But it might happen. So anyway. Okay, that's what you're after. That's what I'm excited for. Still better than Shakey's.

1:25:17Neil deGrasse Tyson:I'm just thinking of all the things you're wishing for in the future, you want to print a hamburger? I'm not wishing for it. I do. It's what I think that. I'm wishing for warp drive. What do you want the future? I want radios that use dark matter to communicate. Nice. Ooh. See, now that's the thing. I said I want a warp drive. You don't want to print a burger? No. The environmental implications of raising cattle are staggering. This guy wants a walkie-talkie that works a different way?

1:25:45Neil deGrasse Tyson:Drop the mic for me So, Shira, what do you want for the future? I do want to teleport But I don't want to be murdered But, yeah, if I can just get somewhere quickly Yeah, yeah I gotta land this plane

1:26:02Star talk with Neil deGrasse Star talk, he's real sassy StarTalk Three dimensions StarTalk Check out dimensions Are you just pulling random words out of this conversation? It doesn't matter Vision Fusion All of the F's Neil is horny What you think of the Jetsons?

1:26:33Well, I'll never be asked that

1:26:39Neil deGrasse Tyson:So let me offer some parting thoughts here. I think you're here because you have some appreciation for science. As a minimum, you're science adjacent, okay, as the saying goes. And you know that civilization pivots on the progress of science and what it can do for our health, our wealth, and our security. I relish in the creativity of those who tell us stories about a future that could be. Because it has me thinking beyond the moment and saying, what do I have the knowledge, the power, the wisdom, or the insight to implement so I can create a world like that? And there's this time-honored debate.

1:27:33Does art imitate life?

1:27:36Neil deGrasse Tyson:Does life imitate art? Well, I think we can elevate that to the next level. Does life imitate science fiction? Or does science fiction imitate life? Or maybe we are needlessly turning that into a binary question, and perhaps as we go forward, it is the interplay of the two that'll shape the future of civilization, a future world that we'd be proud to live in and not embarrassed that we created. And that is a cosmic perspective. Novo Theater, Los Angeles. Edward McDonald, David Sosberg.

1:28:23Neil deGrasse Tyson:Pete Holmes. Cecil Demita.

1:28:32Neil deGrasse Tyson:This has been StarTalk, brought to you live on stage. And as always, keep looking up. Neil deGrasse Tyson, everybody!

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