Time and The Universe, with Charles Liu

0:01Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. Welcome to StarTalk All-Stars. I'm your all-star host, Charles Liu. Feel free to call me Chuck. I'm a professor of astrophysics at the College of Staten Island of the City University of New York and an astrophysicist with the American Museum of Natural History. And I am very excited to be here because tonight I have with me my comedic co-host, Chuck Nice. Hey, hey, it's Chuck and Chuck. You know it. The Chucks. Absolutely. It's great to see you, Chuck. Hey, Chuck, it's always good to see you, man.

0:44I know that I'm going to have a good time. I'm going to learn something. I'm going to be fascinated. Every time I see your face sitting behind the microphone, I know we're in for a good show. Oh, you're very sweet. But you know what? I got to tell you, not only are you going to be fascinated today, you're also going to be fascinating. Because you are also our special guest in the studio today. Uh-oh. What happened there? Welcome, Chuck Nice. Nice to our wonderful show here. And thank you for being here and talking with us about all the cool things that you do and who you are and all the neat things.

1:19Oh, well, thank you for having me. I didn't know this was happening. This is totally fine. Nobody ever wants to know about me. Well, I disagree because I do want to know about you. Really? Yes, absolutely. You are, I guess, perhaps amongst all comedians, the representative geek median. You're the geek comedian. Geek median. And I love that, by the way. You are the man when it comes to representing the humor that comes out of geekdom. And so let's just start right away. Sweet. Today's topic is time. Time. We are talking about time in all of its aspects. Time cosmologically, time as it exists. As dimension?

1:59Yes. And the idea of what's going to happen to us, present, past, and future. And so I'm going to start by asking you, Chuck, what is your take on time? How has time affected your life, your career, your childhood, your adulthood, you know, things like that? Give me a sense of pick a thing that you feel like most exemplifies your interaction with time. So my interaction with time, to be honest, would be that mostly philosophical. Yeah. Believe it or not, it's mostly philosophical. and I found the physics representation of time. Not too, you know, of course in high school when you learn about relativity and all that, right?

2:45But, you know, it was just like, oh, okay, cool. Now we did that and now I've got to move on. It was like that, you know? And now I'm fascinated by it. I'm just fascinated by it. But for most of my lifetime has been a philosophical perspective in that it can be a friend, an enemy. It marks the passing of your life mostly. And that my father used to say, there is no such thing as time. There is only life. Oh, that's really interesting. Yeah. And so, you know, the more you make up your life, the better your relationship with time. And the less you make up your life, the more time seems daunting.

3:33Yeah. Seems like an obstacle, right? Yes. Because time is always moving. Right. And how you perceive it is very different from sort of the cosmic universal clock. But at the same time, if you are able to live a life that is taking advantage of all the time or that's available to you, then you really feel like you have all the time in the world, don't you? Absolutely. And, you know, it's funny that that happens that way. And so, like, you know, a lot of my life has been spent, you know, pretty much measuring whether or not I'm – which side of that equation am I on? Like, am I winning at this game or – you know, so – and I think that that's pretty common.

4:11I think a lot of people actually – I think that's absolutely right. Now, with respect to science, I think the most fascinating aspect of time, aside from the dimensional aspects of time, aside from that, is really Einstein's thought experiments. Yes. And the slowing, the physical slowing of time. That to me is just so rich to think that if we could actually travel or approach the speed of light, okay, and take a trip and then come back and here I am still 32 years old. No, you're not a day over 29, Chuck. No way. And everybody else is dead. You know what I mean? At least 150. Or age or 100. Like that to me, that's because that is represented in the physical realm.

5:12That's right. Okay. That actual thought experiment, if it played out, would be represented in the physical realm. And so, you know, mathematically, you're actually, you found the fountain of youth. Mathematically, you found the fountain of youth. I, like when I think about that, I get really excited for some reason. It really blows my mind. And at the same time, at the same time, excuse me, but simultaneously, as you try to think about the physical slowing of time, my brain cannot do that. Oh, you can. And let me tell you why you can, because we are introducing a new segment here on StarTalk All Stars.

5:49And we will use this segment to illustrate a wide variety of our more complicated concepts of time. The segment is called All-Star Super Silly Space Songs. Oh, right on. Okay. Is it from K-Tel? I could ask them if they were interested. That's right. Put it with Teen Rock 67 or something, right? Or Kids Bop. K-Tel's Kids Bop and All-Star Super Silly Science Songs. Yeah, yeah. That's great. So, yes, our first Super Silly Science Song describes what you're talking about, the dimensional aspect of time. You see, time, as Albert Einstein explained it in his theory of relativity, is a dimension. It's like space dimensions, like length, width, and height.

6:36But it has a unique thing compared to those other dimensions in that it only moves forward. We can't move backwards in time. We can move forward or backward in length or left or right in width or up or down in height. But we cannot go forward and backward in time if we are moving through the universe since the beginning of time, which is the Big Bang. And so all of that together, if you take length, width, height, and time, they come together in this fabric, which we live in, called space-time. And that was what Einstein's tremendous breakthrough was in his general theory of relativity, that we can imagine space and time being knit together, being affected by matter and by densities and things like that.

7:18So we can twist and bend and shape kind of like an ill-fitting swimsuit made of spandex on the beach. Well, first of all, let me just tell you, that sounds so sexy. Ill-fitting spandex speedos. I believe I've been on that European beach. Oh my gosh. Don't make me have to unsee what I just saw in my mind. But yes, the super silly sign song goes something like this. Go ahead. And here it is. We thank, by the way, the Rolling Stones for part of this wonderful music, the super silly space song. Well, already I think I know where you're going. Please feel free to join in if you feel like. It goes like this.

8:01It starts like this. Time is a dimension Yes, it is! Time is a dimension Yes, it is! Okay, do-do-do Time, length, width, and height Do-do-do-do-do They all come together Do-do-do-do-do Making space-time Making space-time Making space-time Yes, indeed! Yeah, yeah, yeah. Time, time, time is a dimension. Yes, it is. Well done. That is the first. There you go. Super silly space song of the show. Super silly space song. Time is a dimension. You know, here's the great thing. So for those of you listening, if you have not seen the StarTalk television show, So Chuck is a frequent scientist guest and inevitably we break out into song.

9:05That's how it should be, right? It is. I mean, why is science and song not work together? Song has to do with psychology. It has to do with the voice, physics, chemistry of everything. And it's a very, very nice way for us to remember and learn interesting concepts. Very cool. So that's how we go with that. Nicely done. Oh, thank you very much. Now, I wanted to go right to Cosmic Queries. Okay. Because we have the opportunity today to do a lot of Cosmic Queries, and they've been building up. And thank you, all of you who have been making these questions available for us. Let's go right to it. All right, you little curious people.

9:45This is John Callahan from Patreon, and he says this. Is the name Big Bang a misnomer? From what I recall, we don't actually have any evidence that the Big Bang started with an explosion like a supernova or a black hole merger. All we know is that the universe began expanding since the beginning from a very small point, expanding faster during the inflationary period. Yes, that is an excellent question. That's great. Thank you for that. And the answer is sort of. The Big Bang is a misnomer if you think of an explosion as a thing that happens in space. Okay. So let's say you have a firework shell.

10:30It goes up in space and it explodes. And therefore, you have things going outward from its location out into space. Right. In that sense, the Big Bang is not such a thing because as you say correctly, it is the expansion of space time. And it's literally the beginning of time ticking in the universe. So if we think, though, more expansively of what an explosion is, instead of just our conception in a typical daily way of an explosion being some sort of chemical reaction. TNT, dynamite type of deal. Yeah. Then you can certainly consider an explosion of space itself from a very tiny, possibly infinitely small point.

11:14And then in that case, you can think of the Big Bang as a bang of whatever, space and time, into or just beginning to exist. It doesn't have to go into somewhere. And that mathematically is still a challenge. What is beyond our universe or what is the Big Bang? But you are completely correct, and I want to thank you for making that point because, indeed, the Big Bang is an expansion of space-time, which has changed speed a few times. So that's really, really cool. And, in fact, you know what, Chuck? Do you like Big Bang? Do you like the idea of Big Bang? I do, indeed. I like Big Bang. Yeah. I cannot lie.

12:00I like Big Bang and I cannot lie. Oh, my. Oh, you know what? Uh-huh. You are hearing the first line of our next all-star super silly space song. Oh, my God. Is it I like Big Bang and I cannot lie? I like Big Bang. No, I cannot lie. That's correct. And with thanks to Sir Mix-a-Lot and all that kind of thing. The lyrics here. I can't wait to hear this. No, they have this idea where space starts very small. Yes. And then space rapidly explodes. Like this Big Bang, this boom. shall we say. And then there's suddenly room in space, whereas there didn't used to be. And then from that, time starts ticking.

12:40The Big Bang is the moment that we start, basically time equals zero. So time starts moving forward. It goes from the past toward the present and into the future. So space-time is now very big. The universe expands. And so we just shake from the excitement of knowing that I like Big Bang. So, Chuck, if you'd be willing to help me with this, I will start this song and - Go ahead. Yes, but this is the abbreviated version. There's a lot more, but we'll just keep it short. Okay. So be ready, okay? All right, I'm ready. And any of you fellas out there who are listening, you should be ready too. Okay.

13:18All right, here we go, here we go. You gotta help me. Go ahead. One, two. I like Big Bang, no, I cannot lie. Astronomers cannot deny The universe starts as an itty-bitty thing Then space goes boom And then there's room and time Starts moving forward To the present It moves toward Fellas Fellas Fellas Does the universe expand? Hell yeah So shake it Shake it Shake it Space time's really big Baby got bang All right Dude, that's crazy I love it But that is the Big Bang By the way That is fundamentally what it is Yes, Gene I am really impressed that your lyrics were a spot on explanation. You know what I mean?

14:00You didn't sacrifice anything for creative license. You took no creative license. You actually stuck to the astrophysics the entire way through. Look, there's two points that I want to make on that. Number one, there is no reason why strict science, correct science can't be expressed artistically. There's no need. When you say artistic licenses, it suggests that I have to stray from what is known scientifically, and I don't because it's there. Okay. So that's great. So thank you for that. But no, it's completely okay. And the second thing I would say to that is that I cannot take credit for these lyrics.

14:34In fact, I don't want to take credit for any of these lyrics. I just want to say that a colleague of mine has helped in every instance in creating these. Fantastic. So can I take credit on my own? It's probably not a good idea for me to do that. But all of my colleagues, everyone who appreciates science has been involved in it. And so I really, really thank everyone for helping me. I appreciate your humility. Another cosmic query, sir. Here we go. Let's see. Paul Foster says, if we could find the point in space at which the Big Bang originated and could also go there, what do you think we would find or learn about the ever-expanding space?

15:12An excellent question, Paul. Here's the answer. you are right now at the point where the universe began to expand. Think about it this way. The whole universe did not exist as a spatial entity until the Big Bang happened. Since then, all of space and time has been created. What that means is that we are all in the Big Bang. We are expanding at this moment. And Chuck, you know this as well as I do. You are at the center of your own observable universe I am at the center of my own observable universe We are all at the center of the universe And your mother knew that She certainly did My mother knew that I was in the center of the universe And you know what, they were both correct Which is amazing Now Chuck, let me ask you this When you were younger At an earlier time in your life At what time in your life would you say that You felt or realized that comedy Was your way of moving forward, that the showmanship and so on.

16:14And that you, well, we can talk later about the time you decided to bring science into all this as well. Yeah. Seven, age seven. I was age seven and I had to give a public speaking in front of a large assembly. And I was wearing a clip-on bow tie. I love it. And it fell off. No. And everybody laughed. And so instead of, you know, I continued to do the thing, but I stopped and picked. Now, what you're supposed to do is just leave it off and keep your speech going. I didn't know that. So I bent down. I picked it up. I put it back on. I kept talking and it fell off. And I did that like eight more times.

16:48And then I was like, I like the fact that they're laughing more than I like the speech part. And it didn't bother me. It didn't bother me that I was speaking in front of this big, large group of people and that it wasn't going well. I just liked the fact that they were laughing. And that was it. I knew at that point that something was there. What a terrific story. So really, I mean, it's a lesson to us all who have ever felt a little bit concerned or worried about being embarrassed doing something that didn't happen. Go with the flow. Go with the laugh. Make it part of who you are and own it. Yeah, it was too stupid to be embarrassed.

17:21Or too smart, shall we say, because now you have been cosmically indoctrinated. This is true. And we very much appreciate that.

17:37I'm Nicholas Costella, and I'm a proud supporter of StarTalk on Patreon. This is StarTalk with Neil deGrasse Tyson.

17:53We want to talk a little bit about time. We've talked a little bit about already the beginning of time, the Big Bang and how time starts going forward. And now we want to talk about how things evolve, right? The universe. I want to talk about some of the stages of things that happen when time starts. After time begins, the universe is very hot. It's very dense. But then it expands and then it starts to cool down because the same amount of energy, a relatively finite, we think, although we're not puzzling sure, amount of energy is being spread out over a larger and larger area. So with that, here's what I want to ask you.

18:31Okay. Okay. So you have this infinitely dense, tiny little spot. Boom. It starts to expand lots of energy. Just an incredible amount of energy. That energy is spread over, you know, everything that we are now. Why is it then that it was not centralized as opposed to most of space being empty? Okay. And then why is it that you have pockets of it like star-forming nurseries and things of that nature? Great question. This is what happened, okay? You have to realize, at least based on our understanding, that when the Big Bang happened, space itself expanded. And whatever was in the universe at that time actually was increased in energy at some future time.

19:25In other words, it hasn't happened for a very long time, but we think that there was an influx. If you just count the amount of mass or energy or density that was in the universe at the moment of the Big Bang, it's not enough to fill the universe as it exists today. So something happened, and we think it might have to do with this thing called inflation or spontaneous symmetry breaking just after the Big Bang, like a billionth of a billionth of a billionth of a second after the Big Bang. Wow. That infused the universe with a really, really large amount of energy. Right. And that infusion caused the expansion universe to be so rapid for a tiny fraction of a second that that universe, that information was distributed all throughout the universe, almost perfectly uniformly.

20:12Wow. So now there was enough energy in the universe then for gravity to start to take effect and produce collections of areas that were denser than others. So now here is one of the mysteries involved. I was about to say that you've actually introduced a mystery. Yeah. But go ahead. Yeah. You have a circumstance now where we know that there is almost perfect uniformity. Right. But there is a little tiny itty bit of non-uniformity. Right. Like so small that if, say, we had a sheet of glass, a perfect sheet of glass the size of the United States, the imperfections from that perfect sheet would be the size of grains of sand or pebbles across this multi-million square mile area.

21:04So from there, how did those little tiny kernels of imperfection turn into the planets and the stars and the galaxies, which are very highly concentrated? And the answer appears to be gravity. What happens is that as you pull these things together, gravity doesn't really pull. I mean gravity does – so for example, black holes don't suck you in. But black holes or any other objects in the universe that have mass temporarily dimple the space time around it, causing a little bit of additional stuff to fall into that dimple. And then the dimple gets larger as more and more stuff falls into it. So that's why you have to be in the dimple.

21:45That's right. In order to fall into it. That's correct. You wouldn't be if you're outside of the dimple. You just remain outside of the dimple. That's right. So if you don't fall into, for example, a black hole, then you don't. You're good. You're fine. As long as you stay away, far enough away. Right. It won't suck you in like a Roomba or something like that. Right. Or my ex-girlfriend. Oh, no, no, no. Terrible relationship. No, I am so sorry. I should have just circled her for years and never gone there. Sucked me. That's okay now. I'm happily married for 21 years and everything worked out fine.

22:19That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Let me ask you about that. You know, when your your family sees you in both the role of a science communicator and as a comedian, how do they reconcile that, say, with the family? So, for example, do your kids like tell tell people, yeah, my dad's a comedian that that tells people that science is cool. Yeah, my son said that he told somebody, yeah, my dad does science and comedy, which kind of means we shouldn't be eating, but somehow we still are.

23:02No, you know, I think you're on the vanguard of a societal shift. I think you're right. I think more and more people – in fact, I think you will eat better than most of us by putting comedy and science together. I appreciate that. That's a great, great way to put things. Isn't it? But yeah, no, to be able to do funny things, make people laugh in the service of helping people understand our universe around us must be just a really fun thing to do. Well, it is because I love science. I mean I'm a fan. You know what I mean? I'm just straight up a fan. And like when I – so for me, you know, that's how I feel when I sit with you guys, you know, you guys who are scientists and you've done the work and you have, you know, you have immersed yourself in the discipline that will put – that makes you proficient at, you know, disseminating this type of information.

23:57I think it's incredible, you know. And so I am fascinated. I'm also extremely grateful that people like you and every other scientist that is part of our all-stars and Neil and everyone in our universe has spent an inordinate amount of time and money to glean and garner this information. And then I sit and learn it from you for free. Well, we owe you a debt too, because by helping people realize that science is something to laugh about and enjoy and revel in, that you're bringing people who may not otherwise have that opportunity closer to the things that we love so much. You know, I mean, you might talk to someone and say, man, sitting eight hours in front of a telescope in the middle of the night trying to get a few photons on a distant galaxy or a supermassive black hole must be so boring.

24:51And I said, no, it is incredibly fun. It is at least as much fun as sitting in front of your TV for eight hours playing Super Mario. See, now that's a great way to look at it. I know a lot of people are going to disagree. Well, that's up to them. However, I've never played Super Mario, so you may be right. To each one's own, right? There you go. Okay, so yeah, let's go to Cosmic Queries because we've got the creation of the universe and then all the things in the universe that come and form thereafter, right? Let's talk about the time passing in the universe. So talking about time passing in the universe, here's a, let me see, this is Frank Mendola.

25:26Okay. Says, hey, black holes. In popular movies like Interstellar, they depict an image of a black hole with an event horizon. But is that just Hollywood or would there be just a pinched point in space surrounded by gravitational lensing? Look at Frank Mandola. Very sophisticated question. Let me tell you. Thank you. Thank you. I think you're just showing off, Frank. You're like, let me throw this in here. Let me let everybody know that I don't understand gravitational lensing. Good for him. But it's a great question. It's a great question. But let's say I don't know what gravitational lensing is, and let's say I don't know what he means by this pinch point.

26:04Can you break that down for me? I certainly can. Let's imagine a black hole as basically a structure where the escape velocity from its surface exceeds the speed of light. Wow. Which means that if there's a light beam that tries to escape from it, let's say you're standing on a black hole and you shine a flashlight. Right. The beam, instead of going off into the sky, will come up and fall down as if you had thrown a basketball or something here on Earth. That is awesome. It's awesome. And that's what makes. That is so cool. Oh, my God. That is so cool. I know. Right. And that's what makes black holes black.

26:40However. Right. There is. That and they talk like this. Chuck. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm just. Where do you think you're going? What planet do you think? You think you're leaving here, planet? Chuck. Get over here. Okay, okay. All right. Thank you. Get your ass over here, planet. Jack! Come on, man. Oh, God, that is so racist and wrong. Oh, please. And guess what? I don't care. I can do it. I can do it. Okay. Moving on. Moving on. I'm sorry. Moving on. I'm sorry. It's all right. It's all right. I just love that. The black, black hole. It's hypothetical. It's a planet. It's a black hole.

27:18Moving on. Black hole. I'm sorry. Go ahead. There's gotta be a song in that one, too. There it is. I think, you know, Black, Black Hole. Okay. Well, you know, like, Wild, Wild West, Wild, Wild West. The Black, Black Hole. The Black, Black Hole. The Black, Black Hole. Screw you! Light! Think you're getting out of here light? The Black, Black. Okay, all right. Go ahead. So you shine it up, it curves right back down. And we just fall back down. Escape velocity. So that's all a black hole really is. Now, if the laws of physics as we understand them hold, under what circumstances could such an object exist, right?