281. Creator Marketing That Actually Scales: Building Programs That Drive Long-Term Growth

0:01Austin Clare:Welcome to Startup to Scale, a podcast by FoodBevy. I'm your host, Jordan Buckner. Join me as I talk to aspiring entrepreneurs, seasoned industry experts, and everyone in between as we unlock the keys to growing from startup to scale.

0:18Austin Clare:Creator marketing and affiliate marketing has become one of the most talked about growth channels in CPG, but it's also a place where you can waste a lot of money if you don't do it correctly, right? So many brands send out product, maybe they pay some influencers for a post and hope for sales. But the brands seeing real results are actually building creative programs that generate consistent content, strengthen retail velocity and create long term customer acquisition path and just relationships in general. And I really want to talk through this to understand how to build effective programs that actually can drive your business forward.

0:52Austin Clare:So I invited on Austin Clare, who leads strategy and execution at Enlist, which is an affiliate management platform. You know, the past 15 years, Austin has built creative programs for brands at every stage and helped companies move beyond just the one off influencer campaigns and help build sustainable systems that really compound over time. Welcome to the show, Austin. Appreciate you being here. Thank you so much. Excited to chat with you. So I'd love to know starting out, like what is working in creator marketing today and what's not? It's a great question. So creator marketing today, I believe that I have a pretty and a unique approach to how creator programs essentially exist and how they function and how they're systematized.

1:33So how just real quick to define what I'm talking about from a creator program standpoint, I believe that there are three buckets currently for creator programs. There are your micro ambassadors, which are essentially your your rating fans, right? They join your company. They are in their own definition of whatever that is. They've got a lower amount of followers, but they're raving fans of the brands. You have your UGC creators, these people who are dire-hide creators. They will create videos. There's really no loyalty to any brand, but they know how to create. They know how to use the tools that they have been given.

2:02They're great at speaking, great diction, everything across the board. Then you have your paid tier, which essentially is your paid. These are celebrities. These are your million followers. I think out of those three tiers, your micro ambassadors, your UGC creators, and your paid tier or your paid top tier creators. I believe effective brands who are doing this correctly have a mix of all three. And so essentially, and then breaking that down inside of each one, what creators are doing well. I believe that right now, creators are one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful asset to the business.

2:32And here's why. Every business right now is fighting for the same thing. They are fighting for awareness. They are fighting for awareness on every platform. Meta ads are through the roof. Google's challenging. TikTok ads are fine. TikTok shop, the rise of live shopping, all that's great. But what essentially is happening is awareness. How do brands get awareness at the fastest level possible? It's word of mouth. It's voice. It's the same thing back in the day when you had a brick and mortar store. You wanted people to know about you. You told 10 friends. You said, go tell 10 more friends. And those 10 friends told more, 10 more friends.

3:01Then suddenly people were showing up. It's the exact same thing here. So from the creator space, I believe that what was really, really working right now for all three tiers is the experience that the brand is giving and essentially the clarity in which a brand gives to a creator in order to be able to do their job effectively, which is create either is it an ad? Is it a social post? Is it is it just a straight awareness piece? Is it a guerrilla marketing tactic where you're trying to be overly aggressive and get someone to laugh? Or is it, you know, whatever it is exactly, the brand's clarity in how they describe whatever they're asking for and the experience they give the creator dictates how good the creator does and how long the creator stays.

3:41So ultimately, how I circle all that back is that from the brand, the term we use here at Endless to creators is you don't work for us, we work for you. So what that means is how do we give you an experience that when we ask you to create something, you are actually excited to do it and one, you'll do it at the level that essentially your highest level so it gets us the highest results. I think to go back to that, I mean, probably the core of the question was what your creator is doing really well and what's that. The skill set to create a video or to create an ad is so widely now available, right?

4:17It's hook, it's body, it's CTA, right? Everybody knows. And as long as you have, you can watch a million videos on, are you lacking with sleep? Well, guess what? We've got the product. It's so easy to do. Anyone, anyone, any age group can do it. And I think what it really comes down to now is brands investing in the people, similar to employees, right? The more you invest in the employee, the more they're going to give you back. I agree. I love that.

4:40Austin Clare:Yeah. Yeah, I mean, a couple of things I want to dive into. One, you mentioned that a lot of this content is really great for awareness. I see this disconnect, especially with smaller emerging brands as they're growing, where they are wanting direct return on investment from any marketing that they're doing. And when you look at the funnel, right, if you think about this general sales funnel, it usually starts with awareness, through consideration, and then the final decision, and then all the loyalty and repeat that comes after that. But a lot of the creative marketing elements probably sit more at that awareness level.

5:11Austin Clare:I think it kind of blends a little bit with things like TikTok shot, where someone might see it, can buy immediately. But I think that's where there's a lot of disconnect between founders getting started and understanding how to build that funnel. Because if I maybe work with five creators, it's a very small number. I probably shouldn't expect direct sales from those five posts. Or should I? Like what's zero? Like what's needed to build that like base foundation to actually start generating some traffic, some return, some awareness of the brand? Is it 50 creator kind of posts? Is it 100? Is it 1 ,000?

5:45Austin Clare:Like where do you like what's that minimum bar? The great question. So I think what you're describing is literally the hardest problem. So how I break down brands problems, especially from a startup perspective, you have two massive problems, acquisition and retention. How do you get someone to come in and then how do you get them to stay? So creators, obviously, you know, most founders don't have$100 ,000 spent on meta in their first month. So they're going to pivot to creators and they think I'll give out five products, like you said to five creators and they're gonna need five videos and then I'm gonna make money not not a shot almost more than likely zero so the approach I've done with this I've worked with companies that have ambassador programs and UGC programs of 30 30 people and I've worked with ones that have 3 ,000 people the truth is this it is an absolute volume gain and if you think and that's why I think founders this is a such a good point I think founders gets too caught up in the nitpick of oh oh, this creator's hair is a little too brown.

6:40Oh, I wish they had 6 ,000 followers over 5 ,580. And they get so, or the video, right? I wish the lighting was turned up a tiny bit more because that's gonna change the conversion of the, it's not. And so what we're finding is, and there's a lot of great brands doing it, simplifying it so much where it's, hey, do this and then just testing it. So the volume play, right? As a new founder, if I was a new founder, started today, right? I've got a new brand. And I, the most of what I would do is make sure that my inventory is have, I'd have hundreds of units, hundreds of units to send out. And I'm sending out as many units as I can to people and calling them, giving them an experience where they want to create for me because there's also the problem.

7:20This is the problem now. A year ago, six months ago, UGC was like, oh, okay, cool. Right. Or ambassador, right. It's like, oh yeah, that's really cool. I don't brands, you know, brands need it. They need me. And then the supply quintupled and now 10X. And now you've got a million UGC creators all fighting for the brands that are going to pay. And now the demand is the supply is way too high. And the demand brands can't keep up with it because now these creators want salaries and all that type of stuff. And so you're fighting for experience. How do you get them to create a video for you instead of your biggest competitor or any other brand as well?

7:54And that's experience. So, again, new founder, right? I'm sending out hundreds of products. Call them. Send them the handwritten note. Hopefully that the product resonates with something that means something to them. So for instance, I'm a runner, a stream runner. If I get sent a product on bobsledding, I'm probably not going to make a post about it because I don't bobsled. It's no relevancy to that. And so it's coming up with this plan that essentially, again, people to people, right? And pretend this UGC creator is your customer or potentially is going to find help find your new customers. Treat them like such.

8:23Treat them like such. And again, I think that's, it's such a weird, unique take, but like the more you treat these people like people and less just like cogs in your UGC machine, which at the end of the day, they are, but you try your best not to make them feel like that. You're going to be successful, but it is volume. It is volume. I would say like right now I have a, we're a gorilla. I have a brand, right? And I'm currently right now, we send out 200 invitations a week and we send out, and it's going to go up to 300. It is volume, right? And you find your 80, 20 principle, your top 20 % are going to make up 80 % of the results.

8:54You take that 20%, you grow that 20%, you're going to be successful.

8:57Austin Clare:Yeah, I mean, I think that just changes the script for a lot of people because, you know, I know like sure on TikTok, I'll just like see video after video for a product and I might skip the first couple and I'm like, wait, why do all these people keep talking about it? All right, let me actually like watch one that's interesting, right? And I might skip over three, but it's the fourth one that catches my attention, but I need to see those other three to stop. Correct, correct. That's wild. And so as brands are doing this, how do you balance then that mix of like creators who you send out only free product versus creators that you are paying to create content versus like that third of like a revenue share come from like affiliate.

9:33So this is such a fun question because it's what we're all dealing, brands are dealing with right now, right? There's all the gurus are saying, you got to pay$1 ,000 for six videos right off the bat. I'm going to tell you from a new founder perspective, okay, or just in general, the amount of people right now who will create videos for you for free is the biggest it's ever been. there are apps like that and listen like other apps that there is thousands of creators who just

9:59Austin Clare:want their shot utilize them so how i do it and how i've always done it is it's similar like when you want a job you got to earn it you got to show it and you got to have the resume you got to show it you got to make yourself the values there so what i always do is hey commission always commission 100 and again you're not loyal to me you're low you're creating for a bunch of other brands if you commit to this and it works and it pops off and the sales come in and every and the data says you're great, we move you from tier to tier. So I create personally a system that essentially someone comes in, we have specific KPIs that we want them to hit.

10:29That can be sales, that can be clicks, that can be whatever, just consistency in videos, their love for it, whatever. It can be whatever the brand wants from the KPI perspective. And if they hit those KPIs, then we move them up. And so it goes from commission only to small retainer to bigger retainer to fill in the blank along the road. But what I've found is this, when you give someone a retainer for UGC specifically, right off the bat the not excitement it maybe it is excitement the i've already won motivation yeah well they not the money but the it's almost because i've already won right 41 so i have a really good friend of mine he does ugc and he just had his first week he just made two grand on ugc and that's from his commissions and he's like this is the best thing ever he's hungry for it if those brands take him off that commission put him on a salary he'll just go he it's almost it's a drug.

11:17You want to feel that, my gosh, my video popped off. Look at my money commission coming in. Boom. And so if you give them that right off the bat, it's really hard. You can only keep going up from there. And so start it slow and build with them. You know, that's why only a few people come in senior level roles in businesses. Like most people start in this position. They work their way up. They have a growth path, right? You give the creators a growth path. They're going to stay with you forever. If you just say, hey, you come in at this for life. See you later. They're eventually going to leave.

11:42They want. I mean, I love that

11:43Austin Clare:perspective because then I think that aligns with founders and the way that a lot of them think right because it's like if I pay someone two grand off the bat and the video is like fine I see no results from it I'm gonna be like okay where do I go from here like I have no nothing else to really incentivize them with but if I'm giving out product and find hey maybe most of them did like okay but here's 20 % that did really well like how then can I capture that I think a lot of founders and brands miss that piece as well like how do you like pay attention to the ones that are really performing and develop those tiers in advance so you can just move them up.

12:14Austin Clare:You have the processes already in place so you're not making up and losing them from your network, from a one-off post, if they perform so well. Here's also, this is a really fun, I think, tidbit that I think it's been going on since the beginning of time in marketing, especially digital marketing. Smaller founders are trying to do what the nine-figure brands are doing at the same time the nine-figure brands are currently doing it. Doesn't make any sense. So for instance, a nine-figure brand who's going to hire Alex Earl to promote, you know, or symbiotic who she has a stake in now, like you can't go find a creator to give like to pay you a million dollars.

12:48It doesn't work like that. Or let's say this a nine figure brand saying, hey, we're testing a thousand videos a week. You as a new founder, you can't like that doesn't make any sense. You don't have the budget to test a thousand videos a week. And also to get that thousand is going to take you 10 times the long amount of time because they have a staff like live within the time frame of your business, where your business actually is. If you're a startup, realize you have limitations and scale accordingly. If you have 100 products sent out, amazing. If you have 50, amazing. If you have five, probably wouldn't do it.

13:20Probably wait till like that 50 mark. But like, you get the point. Like these founders are, one of the common things we run into is that I want to be like Bloom, billion dollar energy company. You're not going to be like Bloom. Bloom's been around for 12 years. Like you're not going to be Bloom in the first year of your business. You're just not. And if you are like Grunz, who sold for whatever in their first like 18 months anomaly in the space like and a lot of money behind it too 100 you think you're going to be the next runs i love the passion behind you

13:48Austin Clare:go for it but most businesses are not so you have to think of it as and this is probably also like a good point to like to say to creators are not going to save your business they're not going to save your cash flow they're not going to make you profitable they are going to be awareness and they're going to help drive the other things that you really need which is your acquisition and your retention. Like they're going to help drive those things like email, like SMS, like paid, but like, they're not going to save it. So like I've watched a lot of founders put all the eggs in the basket, right?

14:15All eggs. And they're like, well, guess what? It didn't work. And I'm like, well, duh, because you gave up on your site conversion. You gave up on your, your meta campaigns, just creating experience campaigns where essentially top of funnel, you're building out your top of funnel audience. With all of that, you forgot to set up your SMS. You forgot to make sure your post purchase was set up correctly. And now it's like, oh, the creators did their part, but nothing else worked. And so, yeah.

14:38Austin Clare:I mean, that's a big point. I've seen that happen a lot where like I always tell founders, focus on retaining the customers that you have first, then move up to making sure that your conversion on your website, Amazon, all are dialed in. It's not just like what you think you should have on this site, but like what's actually driving customers to buy. You have a really strong offer. You have a really strong flow that when customers see that you have five plus conversion rate on your site and all those sources, the bigger, larger, the better, so that you are converting that traffic that's coming in.

15:06Austin Clare:Otherwise, you're spending money and they're like you said, the creators are doing their job, but then you're not doing your job of actually converting those. So I think that's key. The other area that I see that happens with a lot of brands are when like managing this, right? So like you DM a couple of brands on social, some respond, some you send out product, but you're not tracking them. Maybe you set up a spreadsheet, but you're not using it, which is why I love Endless. And so talking a little bit around how Endless helps to actually organize all the activities that you're doing with creators?

15:36Yeah, absolutely. So being in the space for as long as I have, I've worked with a plethora of apps, all have good pros and cons and all of them. But essentially, similar to everything else, if you're not doing it for scale, then you're probably going to end up failing. And with creators specifically, you're dealing with people. So how you manage them, the last time you talk to them, the emails they get, their dashboard, like what they can look at through you is so important and so crucial. And so we at Endless have put the ambassador or the UGC creator, and the brand, we have put them first in the sense that we have taken data from all these other companies, the good, the bad, what we love, and then ultimately what people have liked.

16:13What does your dashboard look like? What do your results look like? How does your application look like? How does our search database, how does it all look? And essentially, from the brand manager standpoint, we created the experience that it was super easy. You go in, you can see your creators, you can see your sales, you can see your top posts, you can see your tags. Super easy, not hard to find, not hard to sample through or to have to find things in like a needle in a haystack. For the creator, super simple. What did they want to see? They want to see their sales. They want to see the people's names.

16:44They want to see how they're doing overall. They want to have access to more opportunities. It's very simple. And I think that's what we have found is that brands have tried and programs like Endless have tried to overcomplicate the space where it's got all too many things. And it's so hard. Like if I have to hop on a call with you and I say you're Endless or an app, well, maybe we'll flip it around. I'll be endless, you be you. You have to get a call with me to learn how to use, like you can't figure out how to find this whole thing, especially in the beginning, like that's totally fine. But like, as time goes on, like it should be so easy to be like, hey, this is how you do this.

17:15It shouldn't be a game on like how to do things inside your platform, because at the end of the day, we don't want our customers, our brand customers to be calling us every single day. Hey, I can't find this. Hey, I can't do this. We want them just to run their programs and then come to us with strategy. And that's something too that we do here at Endless that most brands don't. We have an in-house strategy team so that if our clients need a strategy call, it's people who are running programs like myself. I get to speak with them. I get to talk with them and tell them what's working boots on the ground mentality.

17:41And a lot of brands don't do that. And so what I think is separates us tremendously that you can get on a call with us. We can tell you what's wrong with your program, what's going right with your program, help you write scripts for UGC or briefs. We can help you identify great creators. We can tell you how it looks like why creators have stopped. It's a very special place, a place for that essentially no other company that we found is doing that. So we have a great technology, we have a great platform, and we also have the great team behind it.

18:07Austin Clare:Yeah, I love that. I love being able to have people who are experienced in running these campaigns. So it's not just the software, but it's how do you actually implement this in your business and make it sustainable so that you continue to grow. One thing on the strategy part I want to just touch on is, are there certain content styles that are working well? Like are the, you know, individual person at home recording like their review of a product still resonating? And more like storytelling and entertainment plus the product in the background. Like what kind of content mix are you finding or experimenting with to stand out throughout all the noise?

18:41Great question. I would say from the data, complete data perspective, the super overly aggressive hooks in the beginning are still amazing. The over edited videos we found are just not performing anymore. Like the people who are putting hours into editing and just it's cool transitions. Cool. Dude, it's 100 percent. It's just not the thing anymore. Basic black and white videos. Something very interesting, though, this is a fun one. Talking faster works. Like, so, for instance, the people who are like, did you know that your vitamins are not where they should be? But it's more like your vitamins are killing you.

19:18Here's why. like it's it's a super overly aggressive like and it's these ads that are done in 10 to 15 seconds um there's a brand called cove um their apparel brand and they are you know massive nine-figure brand but if you watch all their ugc creators and their ads it is the same thing sometimes there's a face sometimes there's not it's more like a finger sometimes but it will literally be cove is doing this insane deal buy three t's get two two shorts for free all in one for 99 hurry fast it's gonna sell out get it before it's gone link and buy all by like it's literally that's the ad and it's like it sounds like those like 90 infomercials it's like a$30 t-shirt okay like I'm a personal customer as well which is great um and I just bought their new jeans and again like the ad didn't sell me but like I was like I still get their ads and I'm like dude like I'm in and out in 10 seconds it's all about it so their structure also is forget the fluff right it's going to be your problem your solution those are also that's probably the best thing to say is that the problem solution type ads and offer you the problem solution like problem is all these brands are selling you overpriced clothing.

20:16We're going to sell you the same quality for a better, lower price. You're going to choose us. That's their stick, and it works really, really well. And so that all problem solution are great. Talk fast, which is great. Obviously, talking fast is obviously, that's a personal trait of the human. But a direct answer, great hooks in the beginning, overly aggressive, I think, are still working, but then also problem solution. Overpaying for this, get us.