282. Meet the AI Founder Who Scaled From $0 to $880K in 4 Months w/ Adit Trivedi | hyperGTM

0:00Amardeep Parmar:Startups Inside Out, we've got Adit here today and it took a long time to get you on because you don't believe in podcasts and like what people are chatting about, right? So tell us about why, why do you think so many startup podcasts aren't actually helpful? So that's quite an interesting one. I think most startup podcasts I find not that interesting. I find a couple, then like 20 VC sales bit, like is that a startup podcast? Is that more about sales? I'm not sure. But I think the startup ones, it's just every story, every go to market, every like culmination of how a company is built and then lots of scale is inherently different.

0:42And it's also inherently different because of the founding team you have and the like the stuff that they know. And I think it's just very hard and difficult to have that one to one mapping. So when like a lot of founders give a lot of advice, I just don't really buy it. Whereas I quite like the podcast where, say, I have a question or thought on launching in the US or like we've got these sets of US customers and we want to scale. Right. Who's the best person I can listen to around that? Well, 20VC has Ron Gabrisco, who talks about sales cycles and working with enterprises. So I find that those stuff really valuable.

1:22I think the generic it just worked with word of mouth and it just grew and every investor loves us is all nonsense it's like where they always talk about overnight success but it's never an overnight success it's like years in the making so we've just got into a program from Station F which I'm legally not allowed to announce but it's okay there's like 15 AI companies from europe who they pick um and even with station f it's like even if we look at accelerators right you look at yc and it's full of like kids that have never done anything but with this one it's all like one guy sold like three businesses another sold two ones were ipo'd like people building up really great stuff but have experience and so i feel like talking to people with experience you get rid of the facade layer and they just talk to you about all the real shit and then you start to understand how difficult this is and that in order to make this work you just need to deal with the difficult years but a thing I learned now in my third company is that so much on startup hype and culture is around 18 hour days 18 hour days and I believe in that but in tranches because if you're just sprinting non-stop 24 7 it's like how do you pull yourself out from the trees to see the woods and then once you're able to do that you can see like oh you see all the problems going on but if you're in the weeds every single day it's hard to see and you could you just think everything's okay i think also back to the startup podcast yeah it's just i think i'm at a stage in my life now i've done startups for 15 years and i'm not looking to learn from startup founders I think I think some startup founders are really motivating and inspiring I don't think I'm going to learn a great bunch from them I think the people that I learn most from is like if I have a sales question like or if I have if I have a sales question I can listen to the Databricks guy or I now have a relationship with Kieran from his CMO of HubSpot so if I've got a question on market and I can go to him and it's like now it's at a point where I've realised because each company is different even what you hear from podcasts doesn't have a one-to-one mapping so you still need to actually sit there and think how this applies to our problems

3:52Amardeep Parmar:I think this episode can be like a good reality check for people as well because like that's how we can kind of frame this one right people listen to this everyone's telling you and filling your heads with ideas I think you're quite open about the actual down moments and that's the hardest and I think that is something people don't hear enough And that's where this one could be useful to people. I wonder whether it's like people don't hear enough or people aren't confident in their own selves to just say it how it is. Everyone wants to be Mr. I raised the most money, Mr. I got that or Mrs. I have got the biggest valuation.

4:26And I often found, which is kind of contradictory, but the founders who talk the most on social platforms end up not doing as great or failing completely compared to the ones you've never heard of and are just heads down. getting shit going and I really actually rate founders who I don't know much of because I know that the main thing that they're focused on is their business and their customers and nothing really else matters.

4:52Amardeep Parmar:But you know what it is when someone like you doesn't do many podcast stuff comes on then that's exactly what you mean there right because then it's good to get your views as opposed to the people who only doing it because they want attention. No it's true because they're like it's like for the audience like when I have to convince somebody to come on I know I'm going to get better answers than better than you because they're not just coming on for their own ego they're coming on because I kind of begged them to come on I also feel like the reason I didn't come on truthfully for a little while is like I needed to prove to myself that I could also get this business working and growing and like doing well and then what is this business?

5:27Amardeep Parmar:yeah so we're essentially building the operating system for in-real-life executive engagement I'm sure as you know and probably all of your listeners is that online marketing channels are just decaying through the roof. A16Z, Andrew Chan in particular, turned this coin called shitty click-through rates. And people are just optimizing too much for these shitty click-through rates. But when AI democratizes access to outbound and distribution, suddenly you have way more supply for the same amount of demand. So it becomes even more difficult. and the way that people have traditionally solved building relationships with strategic accounts is through this thing called account-based marketing but when you look at an account-based marketing split by one-to-many one-to-few and one-to-one so like one-to-one very bespoke I've done deep research on the account the people and I start to come up with a strategy to try and engage them over a period of time.

6:26One to few is what I call, what I see is what ABM platforms are now. And in fact, I don't think ABM platforms should be called ABM platforms. I think it should be called segment-based marketing because people are targeting accounts based on which segment they fit into, which still makes people feel like one to many on a smaller level. One to many is just hogwash. Most of the gifts end up in landfill. it was like here's some hyper gtm pens and hyper gtm socks like who really cares about socks and

6:59Amardeep Parmar:pens sometimes you need socks and pens some people send some really comfy socks sometimes they do they're outside i don't want to wear this but it's actually quite comfy they they do it's true but but it's like you could have sent that to anyone and i think if you look at that in the online world it's like people follow this tame same template hey i know it's your hiring uh in this area we've helped so and so and they achieve these outcomes do you want to speak to me it's like you can really automate that to thousands of people yeah um but with one-to-one it's it's truly at the essence of meeting the account where they are and if the account means that so much to you and ai is decaying the rate of these channels the thing that always shines is high effort and executives have always been engaging through offline means so like dinners round tables workshops events webinars etc and so the question is like can you engineer this serendipity right can you engineer the offline setting and you can um to an extent so one-to-one abm enables you to achieve executive engagement the challenge is it's just near impossible to scale because the economics really don't work out unless your contract sizes are like 10 million 100 million plus right um but when your contract sizes are just above 100k or fit in the 100k to 1 million mark it costs on average about 40k through abm to attack an account it takes around seven months to start engaging with the executive takes about 54 days to 58 days to launch campaigns what we've done is flip the model on its head and so with a set of ai foundations you're able to um get what We help our clients get in front of execs in under four weeks.

8:47We launch campaigns in under 14 minutes. And it costs four grand compared to 46. So just on that alone, that's how we've been getting a lot of traction in terms of SQLs and also ones which are converting to customers. And it's gone from zero to 880k analyzed revenue from September to December. And it's only increasing. But I think what we bring is that sense of joyful selling and relevance and ultimately getting two people to smile with one another and conversate. So we managed to get in a sales cycle with Databricks in under four weeks from cold to meeting with the CRO to meeting with the CMO and VP de Mongeau, Jen.

9:34And we're a startup in London. Like he and through through the ABM, it's like within that four weeks, he messaged me saying, you're one off one. I don't go back to any. And so what our agents did is an example. So we focus right now on events, in-person events and hyper-personalized gifting and direct mail. And direct mail isn't new. But I think what we offer is it's just as the market has shifted to having agents and also the fact that economy is like worsened over the number of last years through numbers of countries you have local suppliers second like um as a side hustles where they're building i don't know past size maps and selling it on etsy and you have millions of these suppliers globally yeah and so our agents take an account say databricks or then pull out all the buying committee.

10:26So your CRO, your CMO, your VP demand gen, VP of field sales, etc. And then it will run insights on all of them. And so take the Databricks example. So it mapped out the CRO and then from the CRO, it pulled out insights, personal, professional, anecdotal, etc. But the agent's found he once built a business with lifelong friend and rapper LL Call J. and in an archived Grammys article he mentioned his favorite song and the company that he started with LL Cool J was called Boom Dizzle. Now you have those three knowledge points so that what the agents did was use that insight to generate a gift and find the local supply which was a signed vinyl of the album with the inscription Boom Dizzle and so that happened end to end from putting them in the account to ordering with the customizations in under 15 minutes.

11:21So you have agents which manage most of it. You have humans which look through the insights that click, that generate the gift and add the customizations. The question now is that while LLMs can't first shot high quality, because when it comes to gifting in particular, it's about the human touch and the human taste. So it's about how you can feed what's working back into the models to then also create the customizations. So I'll give you an example. So another insight was he grew up wanting to be a professional baseball player. And two years ago, he threw a pitch for the Texas Rangers. So we've got to a point now where one of the gifts that, well, from that insight, gifts that get suggested are like slugger bats and mats.

12:05But it comes with the customizations. It comes with the color schemes Databricks uses. And so the next things we're working on is like, can you turn the customization time to zero? And then if you know what insights start to work well against. so you're a company X, you sell to industry Y, and then within that industry, you sell to these companies of these buying groups, you start to know what really works. And so you can then have agents also picking the insights based on what works. And so really, you can get to 400 % autonomy by training the models, but it has to come from good data. So that's what we do on the gifting side the events piece is just we have when you're mid-market enterprise um a lot of costs the reason why i think we're also doing well is because a lot of mid-market and enterprise already do 120 abl they already do gifting they already do events it's just incredibly long to do um and so on the event side we'll take the speakers we'll take the attendees but we'll qualify using natural language so if you're an fx provider selling to real estate houses you want to make sure that they sell properties of a million dollars you also want to make sure they sell properties in locations that likely are foreign investors now previously if you were to do that you'd have to go through each freaking person each account make all these checks whereas now the agents run it and then we send outreach to book meetings for breakfast lunches coffees dinners round tables even round tables using the ai to bring the right people together and you said as well like how you would blame this

13:40Amardeep Parmar:podcast until you knew that this company is working right yeah and you obviously you're serial founder you've done this before and you said it was september to december you said zero to 880k yeah what was it that made you doubt that you could do that or what was it that turned that doubt to like no this is working i'm in the right position so i'd say any of any friends listen to this they will know or people that know me i and it's interesting my first co-founder there's an article on this actually from years and years ago and he mentioned uh working with me and stuff when i met at it i thought it was just full of bs so i talk a big game but little do people know i literally can work 20 hours a day at that point and wake up four hours later and crack on and and i'll be fine um and so and i'd always say yeah i can achieve anything yeah i can achieve anything and sometimes it hit me in the face and And I think the challenge I had before, I think this is a challenge and a blessing.

14:42Two sides to the same coin, right? Which is like, if you're just starting a business and you've never had a job, you don't know what you don't know. And so you can really just run, right? I mean, we had no right at 22 starting Lingumi, teaching kids English, and it scaled rapidly in China, Taiwan. What do I know about China and Taiwan? But if I wasn't young, dumb and naive, I would have opted for the lower hanging fruit mapped against the biggest potential whereas then I knew no better I got kicked out of every internship I've been suspended from multiple times I didn't know really what I wanted to I got into these things got into these workplaces and then I just didn't enjoy it um I'd say now back to your question we started in December and like we were earring and we were making progress and we had like early paying design customers.

15:34And that's one thing I learned from the failure of the second business because I went from B2C to B2B and then I thought I knew it all and then I didn't know it all. I thought product trumped everything and it really doesn't. And then I was left 90 % of the time trying to figure out how to engage with accounts and executives and actually engaging with them, which spurred this business. And so we started off as an experimentation platform and then it was and we had early design partners paying it was fine and then we got pulled into mid-market conversations and they were telling us they already know what works they just need help scaling what works and I was on account best market all that all snap so one of my co-founders he's a philosopher by trade he's a very good philosopher by trade and went to LSE and he He thinks really, really deep.

16:27He went to Umrah and he came back and he was like, bro, I think this is the one, the ABM stuff is like, I had a look at like the amount of time it was taking to do things about it. It was like, we can literally rewrite the scripts. He was telling me the numbers. I was like, this is absurd. Someone's going to look and laugh. I was like, look. And then we were like, shit, this can happen. And then we started working with that company in May. But it was an end of one. I've been in NF1 situations before. It's like just because one person has a problem. And that was a big lesson I learned actually in the second business, which is like I tried to solve people's problems through great products.

17:07Little did I know is most of the people I was solving problems with didn't hold the budgets. So solving the wrong problems. It's like, you know, when you climb mountains and you go up, you see the first peak and you're like, yeah, I made it. And then you reach there and you look up to the right and you're like, rah, there's like two, three more. that's what I was facing and I think as a result of the learning from the second one it was like okay cool this is an end of one do other companies have this problem and we were using our own platform to start like we were building it for this customer and then all right we could use this but why don't we just use it or speed up the timeline and that's how we got data breaks I was like oh okay cool can we get others and we could at a great pace and we started to then develop on our ICP like ABM who does that most impact VP of demand gen and field marketing so if you have a decision maker who sits in marketing and a decision maker who sits in sales what does the economic buyer actually give a shit about because if this economic buyer don't care about achieving this it don't matter what problems this person has they ain't going to pay for it And then we started speaking with all economic buyers and realized that this problem is so imminent.

18:21And it's like even people who run tons and tons of ads and there are now AI agents for ads. But even that, it becomes a zero check sum game because if you look at, take that micro and then you look at the macro. It's like AI has really democratized the amount of supply that can go out. but for the same number of demand. So it means that even if you're optimising for ads, the macro is going down. So you're still going to be going down even if your campaigns look like they're working more. And so I think it's a case where now where people are really, really realising in real life relationships matter the most.

19:03It's like what me and Nidia are doing, connecting now. I think that's only ever going to grow and I can't see a future world where AI does 100k plus contracts. Now, I do see a world where AI can talk to, LLM1 can talk to LLM2 if it's like a grand a month product or 500 pound a month. But when you're talking 100, 150k, 200k ACVs and ours are about 220k, no one's going to fork that over immediately. And then it's also understanding if enterprises and mid-markets have been swarmed with software, software, software. I get so many questions asked on PlusFit calls, which is like, how long is this going to take to onboard?

19:50And when I'm like, you don't need to onboard. You don't even need to integrate. Wow, when can this start? And so I think we are now, as a result, moving into an outcome-based world. People don't want more software. They just want you to get the damn action done. Whether it works or not is irrelevant. So we charge a manage agent fee, but we also charge on the success of the meeting booked. What's also been really great over the last couple of months, which is now, again, we're confident coming here, is I think we know when a company is brought in front of us, whether they're going to be the right customer for us or not.

20:33and we also find that like the latest stage companies they don't skimp out over price it's like they kind of want things to be expensive because it shows high quality whereas early stage companies they skimp over every penny rightfully so um but we've had a few pre-series a even pre-series b companies uh want to use us and we just said it's not like you still need to approve your channels. You can't use this unless you've actually got product market fit. So like ZoomInfo and the about to close, and a few other big ones, everyone knows them. So even for me, it's like talking about lowest hanging fruit, biggest opportunities.

21:16If I can just help them land a great first impression, of course the call is going to move forward. So that's what we're leaning on. And I think what I've learned over the last two businesses is to be able to look at the macro and micro because you can just look at the macro but if you don't know how a company operates it's like people i presume vcs get this operating system play all the blooming time but if you're pitching this operating system play as a first-time founder and you don't have enterprise experience it's like you must be out your mind because a company is already set up this way with all these tools in place and all these people to say that you're just going to remove half the organization you've got another thing coming uh and so it's just about you know like a chess game like you start to play your positions and then your strategy and you make your moves that's how i think enterprise and mid-market play will take place i think sales cycles will naturally take longer but they will only take longer if you don't have a way to show value really really quickly and so but this is again going back to your first question why don't listen to start a podcast because what can work for one will not work for another.

22:25So I'll give you an example. Invisible Technologies in the US. They're one of the biggest companies in the US that you probably haven't heard of. And they work with the likes of Mail, OpenAI, cleaning their data basically. Big, big business. They said they do four weeks of complete free work for that customer, for that prospect, and then talk about proposing a deal afterwards. His view is that you should prove value straight away. Now if you talk to most other people, they'll be like, no, you have to charge, you have to charge. I sit in the camp also that if you're going to do any work for someone, you have to charge.

23:02But here's someone who's built a near$100 billion business off not charging up front. So I think what people should do is, everyone looks for the golden nuggets, right? It's like trading.

23:15Amardeep Parmar:Hello, hello. I hope you're enjoying the show so far. I'm Amarit Palma, co-founder of BayHQ and the host of this show. For those of you who don't know, BayHQ is the community for high growth Asian heritage founders and investors in the UK. Over 7 ,500 people have attended our events. 200 people have been for our impact programs. And obviously, there's been over 250 episodes of this podcast. If you want to join us and take part in the program and come to the events, go to bayhq.com forward slash join. We also just released our first ever book called Startups for Outsiders, which you can get on Amazon now.

23:55And the link is in the bio.

23:56Amardeep Parmar:Hope to see you soon at our event. Hope you enjoy the rest of the episode. I look at it like a toolbox, right? You've got to know what your options are. Because if you don't know what your options are, you only do the basic thing. Okay, this person does it that way, that person does it that way. you then then you can see is this a nail is it a screw whatever it is and a lot of people they only have one tactic whereas like I think the good thing about the podcast is that people come in they saw all different stuff so if you know oh okay this one person did that that person did that oh their customers sound like my customers but most but see I think there's an interesting challenge here which is that's still very surface level I think the founders that I rate the most and I try to do this but I don't think I'm as good as some of my peers is I'm really thinking from first order principles I think you can see a lot of these examples and you can you can see the similarities it's still not not applied to you yeah so I think being able to think like really break down the problems into snooks and crannies and then really dig deep into asking all right this worked just gain some courage to like go out and message that person I think one thing I learned from my first business but also through life is just don't be scared to just speak on and it was even the case of the first business i remember my co-founder at the time he was reading this book on uh english learning uh english language acquisition for kids and i was and we were just 22 and i'm like what do we know but i was just like bro just email the author he's like the leading researcher on this i was like nah he's never gonna reply uzi we're just some kids so no i just do it what we got to lose who else is working on this stuff he'll probably be super happy we're getting in touch he ended up being an advisor and a pretty good one yeah and helped us structure the early efficacy of the first business so i think that's speaking of advisors this is one thing i think very useful for past time founders which is you if you haven't done something before or there's this pot at the end of the road end of the road and you see someone that can take you to that pot oftentimes it's such bs like i've had advisors come to like we worked with some people a couple of people for like six months they promised the world delivered nothing we're working with someone working with working with someone now and again it's just come to the point where it's like promised big game and then when it comes down to delivery it's like hesitation or like the expectations haven't matched and i was speaking to kieran and he's quite interested because obviously we have a go-to-market platform and we've generated all the customers from our own platform and so we asked him the other week It was like, oh, what other GTM plan should we consider?

26:40Because, you know, some people have successes with podcasts. Some people have successes with inbound. Some do have successes with performance ads. And it does give good or right and shout out to you. And it also got me thinking that because executive engagement, like as a set of agent services, call it, is a new category. No one's kind of going to know more than us. So if no one's going to know more than us, we've experimented fast enough to like get in the voltage as well yeah and it's kind of interesting because the analogy I use like one-to-one abm people might look at me and be like who are you but I'm trying to take what was a horse to a car people just riding horses and you just ask what you want, they'll just say a faster horse not a car so I think that then goes back to first order principles and also trusting your intuition trusting your gut when something feels wrong is probably wrong when something feels right is probably right and and it's almost like that meme meme the l curve yeah it's like you you probably know the answer let me check all these things you probably know the answer um and so i think people should spend and i don't want to i don't want to sound a therapist but people should spend more time digging inside than looking outside for answers and i think if you have something tactful and specific to ask so like if i had questions so in about q2 mid q2 early q3 we want to set up a podcast so i think brand could be really great so of course i'm going to ask you questions on it because it's tactful but to know if i need one i need to be doing the work inside on my business to know if it's right for the business rather than learning about a hundred different ways to grow your business and then pick one yeah yeah it's like

28:34Amardeep Parmar:i tell a lot of people not to do a podcast because it's like a lot of people do it because they think they should and it's like then it's if somebody asked you for advice i'm like are you sure you even need to do it yeah yeah exact question but going back to that kind of therapy point there right so people might not know that we went to the same school yeah so i think you're a year below me a couple years ago yeah and you we both come from like a background where it's not typical in startups right that we grew up in a certain environment where people acted in a certain way that we couldn't say some of the stuff we said at school because we wouldn't be able to say in a public environment and stuff yeah i said it i just got in trouble but and i think you got a lot more trouble at school than i was kind of a good kid i think you had a few years ago yeah and then i I guess it's looking at people listening who were that same environment as you, right?

29:24Amardeep Parmar:They were from this place and they're getting in trouble and stuff like that. How did you kind of harness that and actually direct it towards something like a business as opposed to just being in trouble? That's such a good question. I have to take it all the way back. So like in primary school, I had a teacher wash my mouth with soap because I swore at her. I was basically a really energetic kid that didn't know what to do. They're really not. I wasn't saying them. She might not even be here around now. She was quite old at the time. Yeah, anyways. In primary, I got bullied quite a bit. And I remember once I went to use a toilet.

30:02I remember this clearly. I went to use a toilet and teacher pulled me out. I was like, you can't use it. And then she washed my lap. I was like, then I went to the changing rooms to get changed. It was a class. It was a lot. I remember it was the last session of the day before breakup. I needed to go piss you and let me go piss I went to the room tried getting changed I was like can I make it to the shower couldn't make it to the shower so I pissed myself then school finished so the year above and year above and then I'm getting laughed at so for a year I got bullied I had one good friend David who like proper stood by my side that was that was cool but then I got into year seven and then I had a monobro so I got I got rinsed for that and then it just got to a point I was like fuck this and screw everyone me against everyone come and then I had that chip in the chip on my shoulder because of that but on the flip side I also had a family home where my mum started her business from one room in in the house and then that grew to one salon two then three and then back down to you back down to one we lost everything But when I was younger, seeing how customers would come to my arm and be super happy in return, and they'd bring me chocolates the second, third time they came around.

31:18I was like, this is great. You go in a room, you go behind some closed doors, you do some stuff.

31:25Amardeep Parmar:FYI, my mum is a beautician and hairdresser. That's what I mean by that. So the person gets waxing on or whatever, and they come back, and they're all super smiley, give my mum a pound tip. but a pound tip in the 90s is just so feminine for ingrid so um i'd see that and i was like wow this is epic like you you can give some piece of work make someone happy they'll pay you and they come again i was like whoa sick um so i think deep down i knew i wanted to do something i just knew that so year eight or year eight or you know i don't know if you remember they made you do those really shitty internships you had to pick a place to work for a week and then it's Year 10.

32:03Year 10. 10 a bit later, yeah. Yeah, I think it was year 9. Yeah, maybe one of the two. I ended up working at Curry's, PC World. And they made me like axe. They had a saw, right? And we'd have to... You know under each product, you have the holder, right? Where it sits. And then you've got the plastic bit and the sheet. They used to make me cut the metal and plastic bits. I think from then, I just had this inside me where I was just like, I don't want to do work. Not that I'm too good for work, it's just like, work? And then in year 10, I remember I nearly punched Mr. Jogger. And I punched the window and I'd been excluded before.

32:47I'd been nicked by a police who brought me back to school and whatnot. This was basically my last chance. And he was like, oh, I'm going to teach you how to code to get rid of, to help you alleviate all this energy. I just found my Zen. And he just taught me how to code. I was like, right, you can type stuff on the keyboard. Something can show on screen. You do a bit more and then the screen becomes interactable and then started building booking systems and I got kind of hooked. But in year 12, because I'd gone through all the stuff growing up, I'd done psychology at first year, sixth form. I just found how the brain works and like where I was, I felt like I wasn't normal.

33:27Didn't even feel normal in Ilford County. I was like, ah, there's got to be something here. So I started doing all the readings and I was like, oh, this is really sick. Like how people operate based on their brain movements and how they become people who they are and how they talk to one another. I was just like, this is epic. So actually, if she had predicted me an A, I probably would have done psychology at uni or wanted to try to. but I feel that combination of psychology, wanting to learn who I am as an individual, albeit how many decades it's taken and being able to have the foundation to build products, I think I'm made for this at least for the early stage, I can't go off and say like I'm going to build a business with a billion dollars in revenue I think each phase of a business requires someone different and if I'm not capable of being able to adapt to that phase someone else should run it.

34:23Why? Because I hold a fat ton of equity and I'll make sure that everything I put my time into has at least some kind of financial reward in it. But for now, I think because my life has been so chaotic, early stage businesses are so chaotic. Well, I love it. I think the difference is like from being nearly 33 now to like 19, 20 when I started first couple of projects and then first major company from 22 years. I had mad energy then, but I was also quite immature and I made way more worse decisions than good ones. This time around, I still make bad decisions. Even earlier in the year, last year, maybe six, five months ago, I botched an 80K deal.

35:10Amardeep Parmar:And then we brought in from someone in sales to do a good job. but I think through things more. I'm less erratic and impatient. But I know when I want something, I can go and get it. So I think the lesson I've learned, which is why I kind of hate the online talks of like work 18 hours a day, every day, every month, four years with no break. I just think you'll end up making worse decisions. I think you can do it in sprints. So like we're fundraising now. I'll be doing it in sprints so the next 4-5 weeks will be intense there's some periods where I finish at 6-7 and I chill with my wife and that's great, other times I'm working until 10-11pm and then up at 6 in the morning, where it's life but I feel like with this business it's like that ikigai thing with the four pieces I feel like my alignment is here and everything I've learned is now when you're younger and you said like you're more erratic and like how do you think that lingumi worked and it did well even when you had that kind of erratic so yeah so how did you i had one co-founder we're equal in the business i wasn't the ceo so he could do the thinking stuff and like earlier it was like going to parents houses testing the products and like going to nursery homes and testing the product and fixing bugs and with coding it was very zero and one either works or it doesn't.