286. Meet the Doctor Who Built a 9-Figure Healthcare Workforce Business w/ Dr. Jing Ouyang | Patchwork Health

17:18Dr. Jing Ouyang:Yeah, it's a really good question because 10 years ago, when Anas and I started the business, it wasn't very common for doctors to leave and start businesses. The healthcare system was also too rigid for that as well. It's changed a lot in the past decade because of the recognition towards medical innovation. But back then, it was very alien.

17:40Amardeep Parmar:I would say that I did get a lot of question marks.

17:45Dr. Jing Ouyang:People struggle to understand why I wouldn't carry on and at least become a consultant before various different business centers. They didn't fully understand why I would leave at such an early stage in my career. Now, fast forward a decade and, you know, we've had the junior doctor strikes. We've had, you know, all manner of different kind of changes and erosions of some of the benefits that doctors see. And practicing now in the NHS is quite different to, you know, how it was, you know, a few decades ago. What I did was quite unusual at the time, but is now very in vogue today. And it's so funny, because I get a lot of clinicians asking me for advice about how you balance a portfolio career, how you start a business.

18:33Dr. Jing Ouyang:And again, the healthcare system is also so much more accommodating of flexible working patterns to enable clinicians to do these side hustles, alternative careers. And to be honest, that was also the motivation for me starting my own podcast called Outer Program, because I thought, how do I deliver this message at scale? Again, thinking with my entrepreneurial hat on. So, yeah, it's completely changed. And in a relatively short space of time.

19:03Amardeep Parmar:Have you found that experience of your podcast and talking to people who are also trying to do different things outside of their general day to day doctor work?

19:10Dr. Jing Ouyang:I think what you recognize from interviewing lots of people is that there are patterns. There are methodologies. People may have different ideas, different careers, different specialties, but they're all following the same patterns in terms of how they get started. And I think when I started the podcast, I realized you can extract out those patterns and then start pattern recognizing how people go. And I'm sure that's the same for yourself as well, interviewing so many successful people. They follow varying but probably predictable tracks and probably fall into certain archetypes as well.

19:46Amardeep Parmar:And when you're talking to these clinicians who potentially want to become founders someday, what do you find that you're telling them most often? Is there a certain advice that you seem to repeat yourself over and over about? And then you can do that scale today because they hear this and they don't need to ask you that.

20:01Dr. Jing Ouyang:Yeah, I think the main one for me is to have a bias towards action and take risks. As I mentioned, you know, when you're a doctor or a clinician in general, you go through lengthy training to mitigate risk. You know, you follow protocols. Everything that you do is to protect yourself legally whilst, you know, doing the best for the patients and following best practice, evidence-based protocols. when you take that statement and abstract it and think about what it's like you know running a business there are no there are playbooks but like there's no um there's no protocols that are evidence-based in terms of what you should do and like yeah you have to take calculated risks in order to be um in order to succeed so part of it is unlearning that and the other part of it is just get started you know a lot of the um clinicians are type a personalities they're very academic.

20:53Dr. Jing Ouyang:They want to do a course. They want to go through certain hoops and get these certain titles before they start. And my advice is always just get started because you don't want to be learning that at like 40. You want to be learning this at 25. And a classic example is AI, right? A lot of people ask me about how they get more involved in AI. Should they do an AI course at this prestigious university? And I'm like, just download CoreCode. Just have them play around with it. Just try the tools and figure it out. And that's how you'll get the practical knowledge, because the field is moving so quickly.

21:29Dr. Jing Ouyang:So that's the kind of encouragement that I try and give the clinicians today.

21:34Amardeep Parmar:And obviously as COO as well, you must have quite a big team underneath you.

21:37Dr. Jing Ouyang:Yes.

21:38Amardeep Parmar:How big is the PATRO team?

21:40Dr. Jing Ouyang:Oh gosh, the PATRO team is over 100 people. I mentioned before that we acquired a business, L2P. So the combination of those teams has made us very large. When I was the COO, I think in my heyday, at peak, I was probably managing a structure of 40 to 50 people. So, you know, if you think about teams, implementation, account management, support, integrations, it was a lot. It was a lot. And our clients are very needy And understandably so, because they deal with, you know, patients. There are fires burning in hospitals all the time, as I'm sure you can see from, you know, if you ever, you know, look at BBC News.

22:27Dr. Jing Ouyang:So they need a lot of support. And so we had a huge structure to be able to provide that wraparound service. Because as I mentioned before, you can't just parachute in the technology. Ultimately, the NHS trusts are buying outcomes. and to ensure the outcome, you have the technology, but also the service to wrap around it. So yeah, when I was COO, there was a lot going on. A lot going on.

22:52Amardeep Parmar:And obviously now as well with like 10 years in and your different role is changing, but you're obviously involved in the hiring and trying to build that came out. What was it that you were looking for? Like how are you picking out these people that obviously now you can be in your new role because you've got other people who come in and taste in it for some of the work you had to do before, right?

23:11Dr. Jing Ouyang:Yeah, yeah. I think that, and this is probably the same for most entrepreneurs. In the early years, you may not have the experience when it comes to hiring. You know, most people are pretty early on in their careers. They're not professional managers, so they don't have that muscle, as it were. But we ended up hiring a lot of people that we'd worked with or been to university with. And that, I think, is a really good method in the early years because these are people that you trust, understand how they work, and are presumably smart because they come from your circles. So that was brilliant. So a lot of those kind of early hires were just referrals and people from our network.

23:57Dr. Jing Ouyang:We also didn't have a particularly structured methodology in the early years of hiring. So it can be a bit hit and miss. But once you've got that core of people that you really trust and have that working dynamic, you can paper over the rest of the stuff because you've got the trusted individuals, you know, holding the key accountability. And as we grew and evolved, you also go through different phases of what you need. You start off with, you know, brilliant generalists and you need to specialize somewhat. Every year we were learning and adapting in terms of what we needed and what we hired. And we were getting wiser every month that passed.

24:38Dr. Jing Ouyang:But I think I remember listening to a podcast actually of Ali Parsa who founded Babylon. And he said once that even with the best methodologies, if you can be right on hiring 55 % of the time, then on aggregate you will do all right. But I think also what I took from that is it can sometimes be the luck of the draw. I don't think anyone out there is smashing it with every single hire. And if you are, then you should be paid millions. So it's recognizing that even with the best approaches, it can still be hit and miss. And sometimes that's just because of the environment, because of the domain, and nothing to do with the individual.

25:19Amardeep Parmar:Yeah, I think it's always one of the things of where, I think when you start your company, a lot of people underestimate that side. Everyone's focusing, how do I fundraise? How do I do this? You can fundraise all the money you want, but if you can't get the right team in, then you're not going to be able to use it effectively, right? Yeah, and I would add to that, actually.

25:35Dr. Jing Ouyang:A lot of people will give the generic advice of just hire the best people. It's all about the people. And I remember thinking about that being like, well, I don't know how actionable that is. When I'm like a seed stage business in health tech with no brand and I'm hiring the best people. That's such a vague, nebulous term. But I think what I've come to take from that is it's almost like a philosophy. It's almost like a mantra, right? And I think when it comes to hiring, there's got to be a recognition of your realities. So you firstly need to understand what stage you're in and then really figure out in first principles what you need.

26:15Dr. Jing Ouyang:So instead of chasing someone from a shiny brand, you're really looking at the skills and thinking about what skill type and roles do you need in the organization today? And maybe with a bit of forward planning to think, where is that role going to go and how is the business going to evolve in the subsequent years? But I think if you just take those two kind of principles in mind, then I think it will put you in very good stead. Because I think most entrepreneurs will make the mistake of hiring big names that just don't land culturally. And also really not knowing what the roles to hire for because you don't appreciate what stage you're in.

26:52Dr. Jing Ouyang:Are you pre-product market fit? Are you post-product market fit? Will adding more salespeople actually scale the revenue because of where you are? All these questions need to be asked before then going out to hire. What would you say in the culture is like in Patchwork? Have you cultivated that as well? Consistently, what we hear from the team is that it's a great bunch of people. I mean, of course, I'm not biased in saying that. But I think we attract a lot of mission-driven people because of what we do, because we're ultimately trying to make the NHS more sustainable and also improve the clinician experience when it comes to how they manage their day-to-day work.

27:28Dr. Jing Ouyang:So I think the people who join Patchwork are driven by that. And we have a lot of ex-NHS people, whether they're clinicians or workforce system people, who buy into what we're doing. And I think that creates a really nice kind of vibe and a really supportive environment where you don't need to apply those kind of pressures as much because everyone, you know, wants to do a good job. They feel a huge accountability to our clients.

27:58Amardeep Parmar:And you're the CGO now, right? Yes. So with that transition and like your work you're doing today, what's kind of led you down this path and what do you do today?

28:07Dr. Jing Ouyang:So I think it's a natural kind of scaling journey. I mean, it's a surprise I survived as a COO for this, to be honest. And look, when you start off as a founder's COO, I mean, it's not really a chief operations role. You're basically just doing everything, including mopping the floor, making the tea, and also managing the high stakes client meetings. I think, you know, over the years, we have needed to professionalize because now we're, you know, when you're serving 58 % of the NHS, that's, you know, over 100 NHS trusts. It's quite a lot. And yeah, like we made the decision at the end of, no, maybe at the end of 2023.

28:53Dr. Jing Ouyang:It was about a year, a year or so ago. I'm losing track. But essentially, it was the recognition that we have an opportunity to bring in someone who can scale these departments because they're stable. We're in a good place. We've got more of a rinse and repeat. Someone who can work on the processes and build a repeatable machine. Whereas someone like myself, as a founder, I'm more of a problem solver, as it were. And there was also a recognition that there are some things that only founders can do. And so the idea was that we can bring in someone who can take over my chief COO responsibilities where I could focus more on supporting the business as a founder, as an individual contributor on all things growth.

29:42Dr. Jing Ouyang:And it's been brilliant because we managed to bring in someone who is an excellent operator and just build up that talent density. so at some point you need to give away your legos and you know i've kept them for a very long time so uh so yeah so it's been um it's it's been interesting you know because at the same time there is an impact on your own identity i've been a founder i've been a coo you know i've done things in my own foundry coo kind of way so you know to to shift those responsibility onto someone else it's almost like you know seeing off your kid for like university you know you know they're going to be around but they're no longer being influenced by you um and i think that's mature and that's i think that's right that's the right thing to do i think it's one of those things a lot

30:28Amardeep Parmar:of people don't see is the say like the mark zuckerbergs and put it out of the world that's the anomaly of somebody who's starts the business and then still there as it's grown and scaled over time and i think a lot early stage founders don't really think about that transition of which part they enjoy the most and where their skills most valuable to because yeah each obviously being a sale over a company of five people versus one of a hundred is a very different role yes and there's kind of two elements ones is it the same skill set but also is it what you want to do and enjoy and if it's not then doing a different role where you can add more value makes more sense right absolutely but it's a hard thing from identity perspective it's easy for me to say that Yes, yeah.

31:08Dr. Jing Ouyang:Look, there's so much wrapped into ego and insecurity that comes with it because it's a really tough topic to broach with anyone who's a founder, right? Because you're basically saying, because you almost imply that they're not good enough at the role. Why would you need to bring in someone else? Isn't everything running fine? But I think it requires a lot a reflection. And yes, that's separation, because you have your own individual goals and kind of career progression, but you also, as a founder, have a fiduciary duty and an ownership towards a business as a whole. So the utilitarian viewpoint is, if someone can come in and do better than I could ever do, I should absolutely be entertaining it.

31:54Dr. Jing Ouyang:And there's, of course, plenty of things that only I can do as the founder, because we've survived this long, and we've done brilliantly. So I'm never going to become redundant. But like I said, this is all very easy to say in hindsight. I probably went through an emotional rollercoaster as that was all happening. But I've got no regrets to that change. And I think it was absolutely the right move for the business. It's all part of normal business evolution, I think.

32:21Amardeep Parmar:And as well, so you started this with Anas nearly 10 years ago, right? And for that co-founder relationship to last so long, what do you think has kept that relationship to be strong and being able to work with each other and do it by the same company. Because you sometimes see like you have the people who start and then a wonder coupon drops off after a year or two years. Yeah.

32:39Dr. Jing Ouyang:I think, yeah, it is often remarked that we've lasted a very long time together. And like, it's more than most marriages. Yeah, well, I was just about to say, it's more commitment than a marriage sometimes because there's all these legal bindings and finances involved. of. And like any marriage, there is, of course, great highs, but also bickering, challenges. As you would imagine, no one should sugarcoat that because that is the reality. And as co-founders, you have that familiarity where you can lower your professional guard and have the real talk, as it were. And no one should shy away from that.

33:18Dr. Jing Ouyang:That is just natural as part of any kind co-founding partnership. Anis and I, when we started out, we were friends. We'd met each other in Imperial College London while we were studying medicine. And we actually did a couple of student projects together. So we not only had the friendship, but we also had somewhat of a working relationship. And I think that what was great was that we were friends, but we weren't like super best friends at university. And it's through going on this journey together that our friendship has deepened, which I guess I've got some confirmation bias on this, but I think that's a really nice way to do things.

34:03Dr. Jing Ouyang:Because I think often people, different people have various different takes on like, should you found business with your best friends? Should you found your business with your partners? I think the way we did it was very nice because it was very additive and it enriched our relationship. So that was very sustaining in the early years. And then, funnily enough, during the pandemic, we ended up, well, even before that, we ended up living just around the corner from each other in Camberwell, which I don't know if that's a healthy band for me. I don't remember. But, you know, so it was great. So we were able to hang out a lot socially.

34:44Dr. Jing Ouyang:And then when COVID hit, we were part of the same bubble. So every weekend we would play board games together, which was really nice. So when we started off, we had a very enriching relationship that grew through our shared interests and our commitment to the business. and we've always maintained a friendship as well. And I think the way I see things as well is I definitely separate the professional Anas from the friend Anas. And I think that's the only way to stay sane because the moment you start mixing those things and of course, you know, it can get pretty toxic. But I think that's the way that we've endured.

35:31Amardeep Parmar:So you also have your own podcast now as well, right? Yes. And what we're doing now is we have, we're going to get a little TV screen up here in the future and people can come back on again 200 episodes later. It's like two years later. And then what we're going to do is play back this moment right now. And it's in two years' time when you come back on, what would you love to say you've been able to do in those two years?

35:52Dr. Jing Ouyang:Oh, gosh. So from a Patrick perspective, we remain very focused on the NHS. And what I would love to achieve is the thing Anas and I set out to do right from the beginning, which was make our working lives so much better as doctors. You know, we didn't really touch too much on it, but, you know, I remember every day being frustrated by the IT systems that I had to deal with, by the rostering system that never really worked. You know, everything was done by pen and paper. It was awful. You couldn't get your holiday booked in time. You know, some people talk about not even getting their weddings off, you know, so all of that I would love to solve.

36:29Dr. Jing Ouyang:And I think it would be so gratifying if patchwork was adopted by every single NHS trust, that we had the network effects where a doctor who works in one trust in Liverpool can then travel all the way to a trust in Kent and work and have that brilliant experience where they can manage all their work. I think that from an impact of what we do with Patchwork would be fantastic. And that would be really kind of fulfilling the mission.

36:56Amardeep Parmar:I guess with the podcast, I would love it to be big. I'd love to be a Harry Stebbings.

37:02Dr. Jing Ouyang:I mean, obviously, it's fairly niche. But if I can be able to help other clinicians on their own journeys to alternative careers, and it doesn't need to be, you know, starting businesses. And I would love to actually help the NHS retain its brightest minds whilst giving them the career satisfaction through a portfolio career. Then I think that would be an amazing job. So what that looks like in two years, I think having run patchwork for, you know, close to 10 years, I would never want to be prescriptive because things can move in very different ways. But I think hopefully I've highlighted what I want the North Stars to be in terms of what I want to achieve.

37:41Dr. Jing Ouyang:Awesome.

37:42Amardeep Parmar:So thanks so much for coming on. Quickfire question time. Please. Who are free Asians in Britain you think are doing incredible work. Do you want to shut them up?

37:50Dr. Jing Ouyang:Yeah, yeah. So I prepared for this. So the first one is Dr. Ash Patel, who he was an anaesthetist who then became the head of technology at Babylon before then going into venture capital. So he was at Mercia and Optum before finally landing as the managing director of Hulahan Lockie. So, you know, his career is super inspiring because, you know, he's had such a rich portfolio. And also he's gone deep into finance. And he's probably one of the smartest people I know. Like, you know, an incredible sounding board. Unfortunately, never an investor in Patchwork, unfortunately, despite all his previous VC roles.

38:28Dr. Jing Ouyang:But yeah, like I really trust his judgment. And, you know, we've kept tabs over the years as we both progressed throughout careers. And he's always been super insightful in anything that I've wanted to do. So that's number one. Second one is Farzana Rahman, who is the founder and CEO of Hexarad, which is a radiology, a tele-radiology platform with, you know, AI tools. And I think, you know, what I love about Farzana is that she's a super successful clinical entrepreneur and a peer as well. So she's just recently done her series B. She's, you know, scaled health tech really successfully in the NHS as well.

39:12Dr. Jing Ouyang:But the thing that I admire most about her is the way that she thinks through first principles. And she's built an incredible operational team of which many of them are clinicians. And that's not the direction that we've gone in patchwork. But I really admire how she's managed to leverage all these bright type A people and slot them in and develop them into professional commercial roles like operations, even in sales. So really admire the things she's done. And then finally, it's Lucy Jung, the founder of, well, Sharko Neurotech and now Lyons Neurotech. I've known her since we were students. And, you know, I always have this, I think for anyone who works with pixels, you kind of admire the people who work with hardware.

39:59Dr. Jing Ouyang:And so, you know, I've been super impressed by what she's managed to achieve. also whilst you know founding her business with two small children as well and doing it well at the time with her partner it just goes to show that like you know she spins so many plates and it's amazing how she's managed to find that balance Awesome so Fazana and Lucia both in the podcast as well

40:23Amardeep Parmar:Yes I know

40:23Dr. Jing Ouyang:I did my research

40:26Amardeep Parmar:and if people want to find out more about you and what you're up to where should they go Yeah

40:30Dr. Jing Ouyang:so I mean if you're in the workforce management space, come to patchwork.health. You can connect with me personally on LinkedIn. And of course, you can listen to me on my podcast, Outer Program. So find that on outerprogram.com.

40:45Amardeep Parmar:Any way that the audience today could help you?

40:48Dr. Jing Ouyang:The audience can help me by, well, if you're a clinician listening to this, love to hear from you in terms of, and if you've done anything interesting in your own careers, you know, come on, come on the show. But nothing really. I live to serve