301. Meet the Serial Founder Who Is Investing and Building To Take On the Grid Energy Problem w/ Saroj Mishra | Trine Energy

0:00Amardeep Parmar:So great to have you here today and you've done so many things in your career that I'm going to let you explain like what do you do today? Like tell us about your current projects. Thanks Amardeep, thanks for having me. So my introduction is that I'm the CEO and founder of Trine Energy, which is a UK based startup focusing on energy space. I also do a couple of other ventures. One of them is a venture capital fund, which is based out of Singapore, again, focusing on energy space. Prior to that, I was a founder of a fintech company, Singapore, Staza Pay. So my career has been mostly in financial services.

0:34So only recently that I found my calling to energy and deep tech.

0:39Amardeep Parmar:And you're in the service for a bit there because these companies have done very well. They've built, right? So we'll go to today and then we'll go back to your financial company afterwards. But it's interesting because you said that you moved to the UK because of this company and for the talent here. Can you tell us more about it? Yeah, yeah. So yes, I think I moved here in 2024. And part of the reason was that I was looking for specific talent and the ecosystem for Trine Energy. Now, what Trine Energy does is it's trying to build the next generation of electrical grid, power grid. And the unique thing about this idea is that it is global by design, meaning it's a grid which aims to connect all parts of the world, unlike today's grids, which are very local, maximum national.

1:24And the second thing is that the technology that it is going to use is fiber optic and laser instead of copper cables and electricity. And the reason why I'm into this is because two years ago when I was looking to leave my fintech startup, I was thinking about what to do next. And there were plenty of ideas running in my mind and I was doing a lot of reading and listening to podcasts. I think one of the things which came coming out was that there is going to be a major energy crisis because of AI. And as I dug deeper, I kind of found out that the energy crisis is not so much on the generation side.

2:02It's a solved problem. The problem is actually the access to that energy, which is delivered by the grids. And the grid is a technology which is 100-year-old. It is very hard to scale, has been very static and flat for many, many decades purely because the energy consumption was very flattish globally. But because of AI and the net zero and the transition, that equation has completely changed. And my belief is that these current grids are going to fail. And when I was looking at various ideas, the laser and fiber optic came right on the top because we already have internet globally, which is again, fiber optic and laser.

2:38Yes, they are at a very low power levels, which we need to scale up. But the technology already exists, and it is global and it has transformed this realization. So my thinking was that, you know, why can't we build a power grid of something similar? And as I was thinking about that, UK became like one of the prime areas, prime countries for me to look at because this country has been at the forefront of laser and fiber optic for decades. And the kind of talent quality that I was looking for, I've been fortunate that I moved here because it has been amazing to find such quality of people. I've just started building the team and the ecosystem is fantastic.

3:16So I'm very glad about what I'm doing with Trine Energy in the UK.

3:20Amardeep Parmar:And you mentioned as well how your team is kind of spread out geographically too, right? And obviously you've got the experience of having managed a big company before. How do you think about it second time round or third time round in terms of building this company with the knowledge you had before and making sure you're making the hires in the right places and how you're managing that? Yeah, it's a good question because every single company that I've built is different. I've built like three, four companies. And the challenge is very different. So I think in the UK, I think there are process and minuses.

3:49I think A, I think the talent is available. But the B is distances are much longer compared to Singapore. So to me, I think I had to optimize for something. So optimization was the quality of the talent. And me being in London and I think other people being based around the country so far has been fantastic. The idea is that as we build the intellectual property in the next several months, it is all remote. But we'll have to build a proper office and set up our workshops, laboratories and things like that. So to me, I think these are seven, eight, ten months down the line. But I think the best part of my journey so far has been that living in the UK, living in London has been fantastic from an ecosystem perspective.

4:32Because building a company is just not for hiring the right people, but also finding the right markets. So to me, I think the UK, again, also ticked the big box purely because of the energy crisis in this country. So for Twine Energy, I think this is the perfect country to be because as we can see that, UK is one of the most expensive electrical pricing market in the world, in Europe certainly. And I think the problem space that I'm trying to solve, I think the people who want to hear and want to find solutions are a lot more eager here. So I think therefore, telling the story about the people about what the problem is, telling the ecosystem partners like suppliers, like government and investors has been much easier here.

5:18So I'm very glad about that. And we were talking earlier about how there's so much going on in the world right now with AI and it's almost like I look at it as where I say the gold rush classic thing, right?

5:29Amardeep Parmar:Of like, everyone's going for the gold, but the people are building the shovels, often the people make the money, the people are selling the shovels, right? And I guess it's a similar view is that so many people are trying to focus on building data and building this, but all of that needs energy. And we were talking earlier as well how so many people are focusing on the producing energy side, right? And then you're taking a different element too. So where do you think that the general market is missing things right now and missing opportunities? Yeah, so I think to me, the biggest surprise as I was doing my research was that there's so much of capital going into generation side, which was rightly so because I think the entire energy transition started even before the AI came.

6:08So the idea was, how do we get out of fossil fuel and move to electrification? So that move was already going on. What really happened was that AI became the massive rock that actually rippled the entire lake. So to me, I think what actually really happened was that the energy production side was already ahead of the curve and the prices are crashing. You know, you talk about panels, you talk about, you know, the turbines, you talk about the silicon involved. The prices are very low already. Even the battery prices are crashing. But I think the energy equation on the distribution side, no one thought is going to be a problem because the assumption was that then the governments will keep on building the grids.

6:50So, which was true for many decades. But what really has happened is that I'll give you some facts. like the entire grid size of this UK is about 50 gigawatts. The amount of AR data centers waiting to be connected is also 50 gigawatts, which basically means that this country has to double the grid size. Now it is very, very expensive. The same problem is there in other developed markets. So there is an estimation done by the various agencies. The number is quite staggering. So in order for the nations to move to net zero and support the AI, the grid investments are going to be about a trillion dollars a year.

7:32And as we know that many governments are in deficit, so no chance of this being done anytime soon. So to me, that was the biggest surprise. Why there has not been enough recognition that the grid is the real problem, not the generation. It could be because many installations today are going captive. They're not depending on the grid anymore. Like in the U.S., many of the power generation is the core behind the meter, so they have their own capacity to build. But that privilege may not be there for every country, so U.S. is quite different in that sense. The U.K. and other European countries, they will still have to figure out how to build the grid capacity because building the captive power is actually quite expensive in this part of the world.

8:19But I think that the good news here is that this problem is being talked in multiple forums. It is out in the public, right? So attention is being given. But I think capital will still be a problem. So to me, I think the problem will be there for the next at least 5, 10, 15 years that the power generation will still be solved, but the transmission and distribution will still need a lot of capital. many new ideas will come. Therefore, that makes me so excited about the spaces because Twine is only one kind of solution. There are many other solutions that are possible. And therefore, I think it is imperative for startup founders and investors to pay attention to the grid issue and see that in a many solution.

9:01The market is very big and there is a space for many solutions to exist. While TwineCave will follow its own path and it will experiment with its own ideas, Twine also believes that many such startups should come. And if they also believe in Twine's idea, then there's an amazing way of collaborating, which we are already doing, by the way, with many such companies out of the UK, who believe in our story and they will become part of our journey. But I also personally believe that many much capital will now get, private capital will try to figure out how they can play in the grid space.

9:32Amardeep Parmar:And that's obviously on your investment side as well. You're investing in companies out in a similar space, right? So you're concerned about that. Yes, so this is the VC management, venture capital management company that I have in Singapore, Excel Ventures. So again, that journey has been quite interesting because I always wanted to do something in the climate space. Energy became the core, as I discussed. But within the climate space, the space was quite big. Again, we did a very similar analysis there as well, understanding what is the most pressing area of the energy transition. And again, no surprise, grids came to the picture.

10:09But as a venture capital fund, we have to take a different strategy there because we have to deploy capital, which has to have some level of return within a fixed period. So then we did some analysis exactly which area is where this bank for this buck is maximum. And then the area that we zeroed in was software and AI companies solving grid efficiency issues, grid optimization issues. Because, again, because the grids are so old technology, the AI and software penetration has not been that much. It has been neglected. I think parts of the world, like Europe and all, they have slightly ahead of the curve.

10:49But even the U.S. and largely non-China, Asia is still way behind. So what we found out is that the energy consumption is going to be massive in Asia, right? because population and demand and growth. But the technology which requires to solve that grid capacity, grid optimization issue in that part of the world, we did not find many companies who are investing into that space. But there are a lot of them in the UK and largely in Europe. So the theme that we are working on right now is a technology transfer. So invest in companies in Europe and UK, which works really well because I'm based here already, and help them to put that money to you so that they can expand, they can find markets in Asia.

11:39And myself and my partner in the VC fund, we have a ton of experience in Asia. So this is a problem we are not only solving for Asia, but also we are trying to give a market for growth, a GTM for the companies based here. But again, very focused on software and AI, because I think with those, I think capacity can go by 30, 40%, which is still not enough, but there is a window for the returns to arrive.

12:05Amardeep Parmar:And obviously you've got this dual strategy, right, of your working both in the VC fund and in China as well. And obviously it helps you because you're attacking a similar kind of problem for two different angles. And it means that it's more likely that you're covering your bases, right, in that way while investing heavily in both. With China as well, you mentioned about the kind of return angle from the VC fund. How does it commercialize and how do you think about that in the future as well? Because obviously you're doing very cutting edge research. How does that then become into a profitable long-term company?

12:35Yeah, so I wish I had a full answer, but today I think it's going to be more of a journey because I think problem set is very clear, right? So the technology development and doing some level of proofing it will probably take several years. really because it's just not about laying the cables, but you have to deal with the government permissions and everything else. So it's a long journey by itself. So we call it, and there is a name for it in the VC industry, it's called first of a kind. So this is one of those. It takes time. So it requires patient capital. It requires a lot of patient founders also, patient people.

13:13But I think the ingredients are there for this to at least be something that we can prove in the real world. But I think we're taking that in steps from an execution perspective. While the scale of the ambition is quite big, that we can build the power network globally, we're calling it the internet of power, just like what the internet does for data. We want to do that for power. But for achieving a global scale, we can't do that ourselves. So the business model has to be that we will require a lot of partners and players to come in and join us. But for the initial part of the concept proofing and at least giving some level of demonstration to the world, that we have to do ourselves.

13:56That will probably take several years. And the steps there are that first, we will build a digital prototype, a digital twin, to prove the concept to the world that at least on a simulation basis, this works. It's not too capital intensive. And using that, we'll build a prototype. And then we'll try to scale that to a proper use case. At the same time, we're also trying to develop the market. Who needs this kind of solution? Who needs this kind of technology? Because clearly this has not been tested. There's a lot of risks in this venture. So therefore, I think the kind of capital I will be looking forward to, today this is all bootstrapped.

14:33The kind of capital I will be looking for is mostly the patient capital. I think VCs will only get involved at a stage where I think the technology and the science risks have been proven, which I think will take a few years.

14:45Amardeep Parmar:and we're talking earlier as well about the mission side of things right because you've got such a big ambition with what you're trying to do here is that a huge part of why some of these top researchers and top people are working for you because obviously it's going to take several years just to potentially happen how has that worked in terms of recruiting yeah so that's a good question so because a lot of my time goes in recruiting so this is a general question i think the the the best part of this whole exercise that i've done and talking to many people in this country which has fantastic talent, is that there is a level of conviction among the research community that a version of this dream is possible using the technologies that are available today.

15:27So our very first prototype is going to be a small scale, like a megawatt over a kilometer, and the underlying tools and techniques to power it is already there. We've spoken to all the suppliers. So in that sense, from that community, there's a lot of conviction that this is possible. But there is also this excitement about what can we build to make it a global technology, which I think is a real kicker here. And I think for the people who are doing PhD and fundamental research, this is a great avenue for them to test it because so far it has been the laser and the fiber optic is a very esoteric space.

16:09but I think to bring it mainstream to an industry like energy, which is so fundamental in everybody's life, right? It is a great dream and it's a great mission to be behind, right? So to me, I think that for the whole Internet of Power, what we want to achieve has been a big magnet for attracting the talent. Yes, there is skepticism as well. Like, for example, what are the chances that this actually is ever going to scale to a global scale? there are questions, okay? We will have to deal with those as they come. But from a scientific community, I think I see a lot of support.

16:43Amardeep Parmar:And obviously, it's so different to your previous payments company. What have you enjoyed most about exploring this completely new space? Right. Yeah. So sometimes I also ask myself, besides the fact that the energy itself is a very pertinent problem to solve, I do see some parallels because I think in my entire career, I've been very interested in doing something which is at a global scale and actually makes an impact. So when we started Taza Pay, the mission was that we wanted to build a new type of global rail for merchants out of Asia for cross-border payments. So in a way you can think of Taza Pay moves money at a global scale in a different way, which was not available to the merchants in Asia.

17:27So that actually gave a lot of satisfaction, the excitement to build something absolutely new. And I think That also was a driving factor for me to be attached to that, to the whole idea that, you know, what Taza Pay became. It became a very successful company. We've raised a lot of capital from very prominent ventures and our investors. So I think that kind of mission was always there. Besides the fact that this is a payments company, it actually has a financial success. To me, I think more bigger mission was the impact. I think what it actually has done is something which no other companies of our size could do.

18:03So it has a huge satisfaction from that sense. So I kind of drawn these two elements to the ventures, like what can I do now to solve a global problem? And what can I do to make an impact? The question about whether I have the rooting in it, in the subject matter expertise, that actually was not a big issue when I started Taza Pay because I did not come from the payment industry. I had some understanding of the money movement, but I did not come from that industry. But we could hire the right people. So when the mission is big, when the excitement is right, when the timing is right, hiring the right people has not been that hard and not just for us, for startups.

18:45And that's a skill that every founder must possess, right? So in that sense, I think, you know, taking that same elements to try and has not been that hard. But subject matter, you know, I do not come from the fiber optic or the laser industry. Clearly, I have to learn a lot. I'm learning a lot from the people I interact with. But I think, you know, if you imagine some of the biggest leaps of technology that has been made, actually were made by people who did not come from that industry, because they could ask questions which nobody asked. I want to play that role, right? You know, asking why we can't do this.

19:20Why can we not break that? So that I think is very important to bring to the table as a founder or anybody in the senior leadership of a startup to be able to question the norms and why can we not change it, which I think is a very exciting part of the journey.

19:37Amardeep Parmar:And it's interesting that you said as well, because because you've got a different angle, then you're able to question things that maybe the existing scientific community would take for granted as well. And I guess obviously different business models are always different things too. What have you learned so far in this new journey that's changed the way you think about entrepreneurship or the way you think about building companies in the future? I think first thing was that, you know, how bold your vision can be, because sometimes you also question whether, you know, it is too much for you. What I've learned in my journey is that, you know, if you want to build a company, your vision should be as big as possible.

20:11Because the higher order of a problem you want to solve and the bigger the mission is, actually the universe turns itself to help you. Because the people always are attracted to bigger missions, right? So therefore, my number one lesson is that do not think small. Think big, but your execution has to be rooted on the ground. So you have to figure out what is the proof point I can build. That has to be very much practical and step by step. So therefore, you have to dissociate the mission and vision from the execution. That's one thing. That's one very important learning for me. The second learning for me while building Trine Energy was that the ability to communicate what you really want to do if you do not come from that industry.

20:57I think that has been the hardest challenge for me because energy industry and the grids are one of the most complex machinery on the planet, right? There are only very few people who understand it inside out, right? So when you go and challenge these people and saying that I want to do something which nobody has even thought about doing for the last 100 years, you generate a lot of skepticism, right? And most of the things that you hear is it's not possible. Something is, we have this purely because, you know, this is how it's supposed to be. And therefore, for you to build that argument set, saying that, you know, in a constructive manner, that, you know, why you are thinking very differently, why something is wrong with this current technology is a skill that, you know, you must hone.

21:43And it's a very, very difficult process because A, you do not know much about the industry to build your argument set. Besides, the vision is not enough. You actually have to prove, at least you have to put together a very strong logic why this is going to work. It will not work today, but it has a path to be successful within a period of time. So that to me is the hardest part. So clearly, I think if you have a vision like this, you should surround yourself with some really strong subject matter experts who can help you to articulate that idea in some real technical concrete piece. So for that, what I've done is that I have some advisors.

22:23So the very first thing I did when I came to the UK is that I went to one of the top universities around here which actually is doing some cutting edge work on fiber optics, which is actually University of Bath. So I spoken to some of the professors there and they were very excited about it. So I learned something from them and these are people who have invented technologies which everybody is using. So that was one thing I learned from them. The second is I spoke to a lot of people who come from the power industry. So they also educated me about what actually works, what is the math in the power industry, right?

22:58And then helped me understand where things could be different if I go and try to change it, right? C is I kind of inverted the knowledge cone. Rather than trying to find out by doing it, I kind of figured out who I should be partnering with and what I can learn from them. So from the industry perspective, all the laser manufacturers or the fiber optic manufacturers, I spoke to them to figure out what products they have. And more importantly, what do they think of this idea? If they don't support this idea, then who do I get to source these products from? And thankfully, they haven't been very supportive.