#269: Figma: The Market's Most Exciting IPO in Years

0:00I like the product and I like the management team. and it's definitely an appeal it's the most appealing ipo i think i have looked at in three or four years simply like reddit was interesting and their turn towards advertisement revenue has been incredible and great to see because very few businesses seem to be ipoing and having success but that's a great rap the best ipo you've seen in three to four years

0:31and marie usually mike opens the show with the recent quirky story from the business world but i thought we should go straight to the action and do something different being as he's not around today yeah so i'm going to hit you with a question and uh and then i'm going to answer the same question so here's the question if you had to buy just the that one stock you most believe will go up from here in the next 12 months what would you buy and also you're only allowed to give a one sentence explanation so it's not a mega pitch literally the name of a company and what it does and why okay my pitch for a one-year horizon would be prologis they do um they're a warehousing, both in terms for e-commerce companies, but also more recently, they're getting into data centers.

1:22And my one sentence pitch is companies are going to want to bring in more product because of tariffs, trying to jump over those tariffs. So they're going to want to hold a lot more product stateside. And number two is data centers are big for AI. Boom. Boom. Nice. Okay. I want to dive in, but I'm going to keep by my own rules. Right. I'm going to pitch one back to you. I would go with Topicus, which is, yeah, you know, it's a low risk exposure due to, it has really stable recurring revenue. It has really disciplined capital allocation. It's backed and part owned. Almost half of it is owned by Constellation Software, which is one of the most proven compounders in the public markets.

2:05It's a company I own shares in. It's a company in the Horizon portfolio. Arolio, it is an absolutely magnificent business. And as far as I'm concerned, anytime is a good time to buy it. So that's the one I'd go with. There you go. Yeah, don't even think about the macro, just if you love a business, it's always a good time to top it up, I suppose. Look, I just touched on Horizon. So here it comes, but this is very interesting to our listeners. Yeah, yeah. I mean, Topicus is one in Horizon, but just while I have that segue there, I'll grab it. And as most of our listeners know, I run a service called Horizon, a word you just used in your pitch and um it is a long-term growth portfolio that is a replica of my own personal investments right down to the last and latest investment i've made and the idea is to find one or hopefully two 50 to 100 baggers which create massive wealth alongside i have to say a decent helping of mediocre and not so good other stocks but when you have one 100 bagger or even a 700 baggers i've had with netflix recently you realize how it really only takes one good investment to change absolutely everything and today the horizon portfolio is um as i predicted the first few years are always ugly but right now from the invested value of 264 000 that's been invested in the current portfolio it's up about 90 grand uh which is 34 percent and and um a couple of big winners in there there's one that's up well over fivefold one up well over threefold and then a handful of two baggers and so it continues well as our listeners also know this august thursday 21st of august we're launching the inaugural investicon on the floor of the Irish Stock Exchange, which is an absolutely beautiful place you got to see, where we're going to have eight domain experts that are going to reveal their top three investment ideas for 2026 and beyond.

4:08From AI, we interviewed Anthony there a couple of weeks ago in Stock Club, to global stocks like with Peter Segers, S. Lagers, and every speaker is going to deliver actionable insights with absolutely no filler. So our offer today is, if you sign up for horizon in the next few days you will get a ticket to invent to attend investicon that ticket is worth 450 euro which is more or less the price of horizon which is priced in us dollars so um that's my message to you folks sign in pull in if you're driving sign up for horizon right now today uh if you're abseiling climb back up to the top if you're baking a lovely cake for sunday stop the mixing go and sign up for horizon right now because we're going to stop that sale when we've hit a point that i haven't researched but it's on right now but it's only on for a little while subscribe to horizon today and get a completely free ticket from vesticon no catches there is nothing like these two services anywhere and the fact that we're bundling them is a first and is something that uh i'm pretty certain everybody will be happy they did once they do it very good that was that was very good nice concise pitch it's also worth saying it's such a unique thing within the irish landscape and within the double landscape number one like to be an investing media company but number two we are first and foremost probably the first investing um big live event coming to the city so it's exciting definitely i spoke to i probably said this on a previous previous podcast but i spoke to the founder of web summit um a couple years ago who said just start small start brilliant make sure there's a buzz get a lovely room fill it to the brim and that's what we're going to do um and that's why we chose the floor of the irish stock exchange as opposed as opposed to the round room in in the mansion house which is the lord mayor's home for non-americans or for non-irish for american audience and it's a ginormous room as you well know and marie the two of us looked at it it's it's like a giant circus top uh old history style but to fill it is possible but it just wouldn't feel full and we want to create a buzz and a network and that's that's investicon this year is on the fraud stock exchange yeah also the lighting inside the round room is very sophisticated it was it would be like we were hosting who wants to be a millionaire like that was the vibe that that stage had but i do think we will get there eventually we will have um i think a musical number maybe a comedian warm everybody up and then we'll come out with the big the hot and heavy stock pitches that I think is our endeavor for next year.

6:45Also, it's worth saying if you're on the fence and you're like, oh, I'm not sure if this stuff is for me, go back and listen to the Stock Club episodes that went out with Peter and with the AI investing expert. Obviously, I'm biased because I have to edit all of them. So I have to sit and listen back to all of them. But they were excellent standalone Stock Club episodes. They were probably some of the best we put out this year. And it is a very solid plug for the type of information and how good the speakers are going to be at the event. so if you're on the fence go back and listen and i'm sure it'll get you over the line thanks ammo yeah well said i um i know from over the years we've had three subscribers so my wall street has had a lot of products over the years and and at one stage a huge number of paying subscribers um for a product which was costing a holy fortune to maintain and alas we had to deprecate that product um but we had three very famous people i can't say their names but i just think we you know uh relationships were forged at a time when my wall street was like a rocket ship and three mega famous performers i don't mean famous just in ireland i mean certainly uh one of them is known to pretty much every adult in the world and the other is known to every adult in the western world and then the third one is very famous by our standards and there were subscribers i was thinking maybe i could ask them to come to investicon knock out of tune born in the usa baby so um okay so let's let's push on um and marie there is an ipo at last we've come through the desert and there isn't just an ipo it's a very interesting one and it's one that my wife said to me years ago if this company ever floats i'm gonna buy shares in it and she'd have a degree of domain expertise in the area so i was especially curious when i saw the s1 go in uh the paperwork for an effort to list on the stock exchange and equally um you had mentioned it to me and i'm pretty sure you are a user of the product whatever you're right in saying yeah i think several of us in my washer users of the product here oh yeah so we're so okay well look rather than we have a license if you'd like to ever go in and have a look around Okay, no, no, that's it.

8:58I'm okay. Am I right with that? So without any more kind of teasers, tell us what's the company, what's going down? Yeah, the company is Figma, which is, if you exist in any kind of technical role within a tech company, you will have heard of Figma. It really has made itself into one of the most important softwares probably, and certainly in the app world and definitely in the developer world at large. For those of you that don't know, Figma is an interactive design tool that was created to streamline collaboration and access across an organization. And I'm sure you're thinking, what does that mean?

9:32If you have - That's not written down in front of you. You memorized that, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. It's right off the top of the dome. But I'm sure if you have no exposure to design or creation of apps or websites, you're like, what does that mean? Well, basically, I'll show you the problem that the developers here were trying to fix, which is back in the day, if you were a designer of an app or a website, you used to have to design it in Photoshop, which is not ideal because Photoshop is not really meant to handle like a shapes, shapes and layouts and giving you precise dimensions of how far apart things are and that kind of stuff, the specificity that you need when you develop.

10:07It's mainly just a visual tool. So you used to have to go into Photoshop and design in that way. And then you would take a screenshot or you would export a flat image like a JPEG, and then you'd send it around to anybody who would want to give approval of that design. So for example, if you were trying to make the My Wall Street app, a designer would create in Photoshop and then they'd send it to you they'd send it to a product manager they'd send it to the developer team they'd send it to anybody anybody who could have any sort of opinion that image has to go around right oh it sure did I remember it well and so many people needed to have a look it was quite exactly everybody wants to have a gawk like it's exciting but then it means you start to get feedback back right so so your your founder might say hey can you change the color of this button your designer might say hey that's not our font I need it adjusted here and here your developer might come back and say, hey, this is going to be really complicated to build.

10:53Can you simplify this aspect? And all of a sudden you're getting all this feedback. And then that means that you end up having version two, version three, version four, version five. And all of a sudden, all these images are floating about and everybody's confused as to what's the one we're supposed to be working on and that kind of thing. And so that was the essential problem that these two guys were trying to fix. And that is Dylan Field and Evan Wallace, who were students at Brown University, who founded Figma in 2012. And they basically say in the S1 document and back in the day that But Figma is essentially meant to be a design tool that functions like Google Docs.

11:21So it's a thing of you can make one prototype and everybody can go in and have a look and you can give people different types of access. So some people can only view, some people can comment, some people can edit, some people can only edit specific aspects based upon their job title. And so it's this interesting idea that was definitely solving a massive issue in the industry at the time, particularly when app development and web development was really hot. and that's really where we get figma's central product which is called figma design it splits itself into three phases essentially design mode enables users to draw shapes and frames and components apply styles modify layers basically build out your canvas and then prototype mode allows you to create interactive flows between frames so it's that thing of saying okay when i click this button i want it to take me here and here's what this new page will look like and then developer mode which allows developers to go in and isolate specific elements and get code snippets and download assets marked for export.

12:16So, you know, Alejandro is our developer. If I was to create a nice image for him on Figma, he would be able to go in and say, okay, this button needs to be this color. Click on that within Figma and say, okay, this is the hash code of this color. I can just export that. It's very clean. So it's nice. It makes sense. You can see how that is the streamlining of production for tech companies. Yes, go ahead. You have a question. I do have a question. You mentioned Photoshop. Is that a Adobe product? it is yes it's within the creative cloud because i'm reading that this is um the david to adobe's goliath that the that figma is the one that adobe like adobe is a name that's been around in my consciousness since i first sat in front of a computer it's always had some kind of software package sitting on a computer that for the most of my career i never actually needed to use i did on occasion i probably opened pdfs on it or something without noticing it's just one of those ever brands that sit with the internet but photoshop was once a cornerstone from what you're telling me for designers and figma seems to have built a better mousetrap is that correct well i suppose they work in different ways i was reading reviews of the softwares today and somebody said if you are trying to create something an image for example and you need pixel specificity as in you know almost like an artist photoshop is still the place to go So if you're almost doing the digital equivalent of painting or drawing, you go to Photoshop.

13:43And then if you're looking for something that is vector-based, i.e. you want a nice clean line, like you're building a logo, you go to Illustrator, which is also an Adobe product, Adobe Illustrator. But specifically for prototyping, which is creating the look and feel of a website or an app or something like that, that's where you go to Figma. And in that sense, Figma is kind of in a world of its own. Adobe has a direct competitive product. It's called XD. and we're going to get into some more kind of competitive stuff as we move through. But when you compare the usage of XD and Figma, Figma is kind of running away with the market.

14:14It seems to be the driving force between a designer continuing to use XD is because they are working in a company where Adobe is so embedded into other aspects of the company. It's too difficult for them to say, hey, I would like to get a license for Figma rather than the Adobe suite. You know, these large corporations and be like, well, we have a massive enterprise agreement with Adobe. We're not going to add on this new software. However, it is worth saying that Figma does work well with Illustrator, for example. You can export and import stuff in and out of those softwares. It's completely fine if you have half the team on one and half the team on the other.

14:46But yes, you are correct that they are essentially the David to Adobe's Goliath, but they have a specificity edge, which is how they're able to wedge themselves in to most of these companies. Beyond the simple design product, they began to expand out the product suite the last couple of years. So in 2021, Figma launched a digital whiteboarding capability called FigJam. Again, this is just them trying to get into the earlier aspect of design. So rather than coming into Figma when you're ready to start putting up mockups, this is a space where you can say, okay, product managers, designers, developers, we're all hopping into this whiteboard.

15:21Everybody start putting up sticky notes. Let's formulate what should be the driving factors when it comes to design. So that's pretty interesting. It does have a lot of competition there. Whereas, you know, we use Twilio or not Twilio. What's the one that you and Alejandro are always using with the sticky notes? Trello. Trello. Yeah. So like that would be kind of a similar thing to Trello, except it has a bit more of a 3D space aspect. You can almost be moving things around and dropping and that kind of vibe. It's a digital whiteboard. And then in June of 2024, Figma launched Figma Slides, which is effectively a competitor to Canvas Slides, but also to PowerPoint.

15:54But again, you just get a bit more of a design and creative manipulation of it. And interestingly, the reason that they launched this product was they found out that a lot of designers were already making slides within Figma with the idea being, okay, maybe you have an executive suite that wants to see a design, but they don't want to go into Figma. Like, you know, if we were trying to pitch you something, you'd be like, I don't want, don't give me the login to Figma because what if I break something kind of a vibe? So what ended up happening was developers and designers were creating a PowerPoint by simply pulling their designs over into a new canvas and then just showing that to people.

16:30And so Figma said, hey, you guys are already doing this. Here's a product dedicated to that that just allows you to move these designs into a more formal setting. So that makes sense to me. That seems like a smart, again, a way to upsell and cross sell. And that's really where we are coming into the IPO. There's a few more products that are worth discussing, but they were only announced in March of 2025. So we actually don't know what adoption or usage has looked like so far. And that'll be in my what to watch section. And are they monetized products or kind of land and expand type model? So it's a licensing service.

17:02So you can actually, there's a free version of Figma. You can go in and have a look around and poke around and try out the software as much as you want. And then what ends up happening is once you need to add a collaborator, you need to get a license. And then once you have a certain number of collaborators within a company, it's worth contacting them and getting an enterprise license because you're like, hey, I have 50 people trying to access this file. I need a bit of help. It's also worth remembering here, as you were saying about Adobe, Figma was almost acquired by Adobe in 2022 for$20 billion.

17:29And that deal was blocked by EU regulators. During an initial internal tender last year, Figma was valued at$12.5 billion. dollars so obviously saw figma to be a big enough threat that they were willing to almost double um yeah basically which is that's pretty astounding so that should tell you how serious figma is taken within the broader design market so has the ipo been priced amory sorry you're probably going to go there but yeah we're going to go into numbers right now um we i do not we're we are not currently priced people have been trying to make an estimation based on the fact Adobe trades at 7x revenue.

18:05So people were saying because Figma has greater growth as a smaller company. It's going to be 10 to 12x. Yeah, it's going to be pretty expensive. And as we tend to say here at My Wall Street, coming out of this IPO, I would say the price is going to be hot. Number one, as you said, it's one of the first actually appealing IPOs that we've seen in what, three or four years? It's been a while. I know we had Reddit last year, but this is the first time we really have seen companies that we saw a lot in 2019 and 2020 hey this is a software company great growth has a way to become profitable yeah that's appealing let's dive in so i would say it's going to have a giant jump on ipo day and it would probably be worth waiting the six month lockup period because staff are going to start to liquidate shares at that point um so if we dig into our numbers here last 12 months they generated 821 million dollars in revenue that represents 46 percent growth year over year they have a 91 gross margin gotta love those software companies yeah that's pretty solid yep um revenue was 228 million for the last three months so that's the first quarter of 2025 january to march that represents 46 year-over-year growth impressively 17 operating margin and a net income of 44.9 million dollars imagine being a growth software company and come into the market profitable this is a new world um that is a big jump though their their net income jumped threefold coming into this so i do feel like oh their management knew that they were probably going to need to be profitable to ipo because that seems to be where market sentiment is so fair enough they were they were able to get their four-year compound annual revenue growth rate as of December 2024 was 53 percent come on actually those numbers are you're right I mean if you're going to go to market now is the time with those numbers at your back and I also saw a graph um recently I don't know if it was in one of their filings or something I'm subscribed to about um the net dollar retention rate per year and it's that graph that shows five eight years ago and how those that customer cohorts revenue has just grown grown grown then they stack on top of it the next year and next year and next year and it is a thing of beauty it's a thing of like every business just wants that it is like if you could look at one graph that's the one you you'd look at yep and their current net dollar retention 132 what okay right the record the highest i ever heard as far as i recall was with snowflake a few years ago and it had 140 or 145 net dollar retention rate anything over 100 for our listeners it means that the people who spent 100 last year if they've spent 105 this year the net dollar retention rate is 105 um am i right in that calculation it's the entire yeah it's only it only looks at those who are spending last year and what are they spending this year and an awful lot of businesses have it It goes into the, it depletes a little because you've talked for discounts or competitor, but to have that pricing power in a new product set that actually ups it to that level is absolutely astounding.

21:23132%. And it's worth saying, if we talk about the rule of 40, who maybe people aren't familiar back in 2020, we were talking about the rule of 40 all the time because it was nothing but software companies who were in rapid growth. A lot of them weren't profitable. But basically, it means that combined revenue growth rate and operating margin should equal or exceed 40 % for you to know that the growth within the company is worth paying a large multiple for. And so Figma's, with its current numbers, is sitting at 63%. Oh, wow. So it's well over the rule of 40. Again, the record to my recollection, the one of the highest I've seen was CrowdStrike.

22:06They'd always parade their rule of 40 in their investor relations deck with great pride and explain what it is and why anything over 40 is good. And theirs was 70 something percent. And again, if we're looking at benchmarks for the highest that I can't say I've ever seen, but I can certainly recall CrowdStrike was the one. So, I mean, again, that is an amazing number. Is there any number? that you'd go oh well that's not great no not in terms of the numbers to be honest like they are just so so comfortable and i think i saw an analyst say it's the greatest rule of 40 that we've seen since the ipo of palantir so like it's it's it's in very comfortable um positioning here and just you know a few more positive numbers 95 of fortune 500 companies are using figma 13 million monthly active users, 10 and a half thousand paying customers are spending more than $10 ,000 in annual recurring revenue.

23:00It's just 76 % of customers are using two or more products. So obviously not only are people getting in here to use the design products, but they're moving up and down in terms of the product ability. So maybe they're moving earlier in the creation cycle or moving later in the cycle. And something I heard one analyst said that I thought was really interesting is this, their sales cycle should be considered a bottom up flywheel. Basically meaning what seems to end up happening is one designer gets into a company and says, Hey, I want to start using Figma, or maybe they're coming from a company where they were already using Figma.

23:33So then they start using it. And then what ends up happening is they need to show that work to a product manager or to a developer and they send it over. And then they get exposed to the software and they say, Hey, like, this is pretty good. Actually, can I get a license to this software? I want to use it. And before you know it, your entire development team, your entire product management team is looking for a Figma license. And so 70 % of revenue for Figma is coming from enterprise licenses, which basically has started completely from organically designers finding this software five to seven years ago and forcing the rest of their company to come on and use it simply because it was better than any of the competitor tools that were on the market at the time.

24:08So I think that that is very, very interesting. But I do want to talk about expansion because as I said there at the top, 95 % of Fortune 500 companies are using this software. We don't know to what capacity they're using it because of course, sometimes they fudge those numbers and say one designer in this Fortune 500 company is using this software, i.e. this company is using it. And you're kind of like, well, that company has 40 ,000 employees. So like, how great is it? But it seems so much of the Figma sales cycle right now is built upon the land and expand. Get one person, expand out as much as possible, upsell, upsell, upsell.

24:41As I said, 70 % of revenue is coming from enterprises. But as we just discussed, Figma is very much dominating the UI market, the prototyping, the app design, the website design. UX designers live and breathe by Figma. So the real question here is, how do you get everybody else? Like, do you just want to specialize in UI and say, no, this is the only thing you do? Or do you want to be trying to get other positions to be interested in the product? And that seems to be where they're headed. So as I said, in May of 2025, Figma effectively doubled their product portfolio, which is pretty shocking to be heading towards an IPO and all of a sudden go, hey, we're launching all these new products.

25:17So we got Figma Sites, Figma Make, Figma Buzz, and Figma Draw. Figma Sites is a product that lets you design a website and directly publish it to the web. Figma Make is an AI-powered product that turns a prompt into a fully functional prototype. Figma Buzz is a product for easily creating social media assets or display ads or other marketing materials that remain consistent with your brand visuals or identity. and Figma Draw provides a dedicated space for finer vector editing, something where you're drawing an icon or creating a logo as we were talking about. Now, this is obviously great because again, this will emphasize the land and expand model.

25:52Hey, we already have the entirety of the product team on Figma. How do I get a graphic designer? How do I get a social media manager? How do I get a web designer? And so that to me is very interesting and a great way to be increasing the enterprise revenue that you already have. However, the thing that we have to remember is it's going to drag Figment into competition with a lot of other companies. As you said, right now they're competing with Adobe and they are the David to the Goliath. They're winning. But if you begin to move into sites, as in development and launching and hosting, you're going to be pulled into competition with Wix and Webflow and Framer.

26:25If we want to talk about Buzz, the creation of assets for social media or ads, that means you're coming into contact then with Canva and Adobe Express. And if you want to talk about Draw, the creation of vectors, then you are going into the Goliath of all Goliaths, which is Adobe Illustrator, which is really the industry standard for that type of work. When we had an on-staff graphic designer, she lived and breathed by Adobe Illustrator. And basically every asset for My Wall Street was created from there. And so it's going to be a highly competitive space. I think the advantage there is going to be the same advantage that they were able to bring to product development, which is if you can allow collaboration to be easy and seamless, maybe you will have an advantage.

27:07Maybe it's then the thing of your graphic designer can create all the assets within Figma, and then your web designer can be pulling those assets seamlessly from one version of Figma to the other, and it's easier. It's easier to access brand assets. It's easier to ensure that you're maintaining a brand identity. And so I think that's going to be the main differentiator here. Again, the company was founded with the idea of how do we make collaboration easier within these jobs that are so visual. And so in theory, if they can expand out into other visual aspects such as graphic design, it should work.

27:42But it's just you're in a competition-heavy space. And I would be interested in hearing from people who work in these spaces if you're a graphic designer. A lot of designers get really entrenched in their tools because it was what they were trained to use. If you have come from a graphic design degree program, you were probably taught effectively on wholly Adobe products. And now someone's coming to you and saying, hey, Figma is developing this product, which I read some reviews for Figma Draw. And people were saying it's not Adobe Illustrator. Adobe Illustrator is very sophisticated and high level.

28:12It can do some simple stuff. But it's saying what would they have to do to get you over the line and nudge you and say, yeah, do you know what? I will start creating within Figma. So that's something to watch. That's number one. And my number two thing of what to watch is going to be AI, which, you know, that's pretty obvious. That's the thing to watch for every company on the planet right now. And the way that they're using AI at the minute is to make it easier to move from, one, the stages of design effectively. So what they said a Figma make is to allow you to go in and just say, okay, I would like a UI for this type of app.

28:47I would like it to look like this. I want it to have this element. I want it to, you know, have this color, that kind of thing, and have it spit it out and give it to you. The more functional way that they're using AI is moving from a usable prototype to development. So accelerating that so you can hand off to a developer and they can effectively copy and paste out useful code. That is also being generated by AI. I think that's more reasonable. The interesting thing is I think that that AI market, again, is going to be incredibly competitive. And probably some of the competitors we haven't even heard of yet because they're being developed secretly.

29:20interestingly google just released a free competitor to figma which is just focused on ai it's called stitch it's the same deal you know you go on there to to type in and say this is what i'd like my ui to look like i write a lot of reviews apparently google stitch is awful like woeful horrible yeah i actually tried it i i just kind of gave it a a brief for profit just for fun i got google sent me a free trial here you can try stitch and and um i dumped in a whole pile of collateral about profit and the bride of frankenstein both coming out of its forehead came out the other end it was not um a usable product based on my implementation now the weak link was probably me but i thought it was meant to be for it i thought it was meant to be idiot proof that's why i was like yeah i'll do that yeah and it's that seems to be the main problem with all of these ai tools that are functioning at all levels there is no ability to get it to give you the first draft and then you get to go in and edit even with figma make edits are done via more prompts which i'm sure if you're an established designer is annoying if you were to say hey can you give me a simple layout for this and then you would like to go in and mess with individual elements you cannot do that it's the same really with you know if you use chat gbt to generate an image because it's not generating all the layers you can't go in and say oh i'd like to move that bit to the left you cannot do that it's just you know it's a jpeg it's uneditable.

30:42You have to go back to chat GPT to get it to edit. And like many things with AI, the more you mess with the initial version one, the worse it gets. Like me and Luke have been arguing with chat GPT trying to get, you know, hey, could you just slightly alter this in this existing image? And all of a sudden everything's flipped upside down and inverted. Like, how did we get here? Yes, I've seen. And so that seems to be kind of where we're going. So in terms of AI With Figma, it was mentioned in their S1 more than 200 times. And I kind of liked the way they were talking about it, where they said they would like to expand their capabilities to increase efficiency.

31:16But they also want to balance that within not ruining their business model. And that their land and expand, they're trying to get as many licenses as possible. If you automate the entirety of this process, suddenly you've taken something that needs 12 people to something that needs one or two. Like, obviously, that's not great for you. So they're trying to balance it. um i would assume that's where their ipo money is going they're trying to bring internally yeah absolutely so look as a summary uh are you interested are you lukewarm or are you cool i i'm interested i i'm interested for two reasons number one the the financials the financials are are great we haven't seen financials like that in a long time five or six years so that's exciting but when you said to me a revenue of 800 and whatever was million or net bottom was it uh wasn't revenue was it net profit no so yeah so almost 900 million in revenue right so i was like 12x it's going to be way more than 12x it's going to be way like to to for me to suggest it's going to be 12x that it's going to be even a 20x that i think it's going to be more than 20x revenue with almost a 50 percent year-over-year revenue growth yeah see but i they are ipoing really at the best time possible because as i said they have really mad like they seem to have maxed out the ui aspect i think they will continue to make money there and i think revenue will continue to grow but i don't think it will it can sustainably be the driving force of the business in five years time so they're trying to put these new products out and you see the difficult thing is they spent a lot of time in the ipo documentation talking about these new products but they've only been on the market for what, three months?

32:59So like, how are we to be able, how is anybody supposed to say, yeah, this is a good product. This will be disruptive to Framer or this will be disruptive to Canva. You know, that's the difficult thing here. And so some of this growth is hinging on stuff that hasn't effectively been measured yet. So that's something to consider. However, here's a caveat to that argument, because for about a year, a year and a half, they were trying to merge with Adobe, apparently what ended up happening internally was Figma stopped developing anything that could be considered highly competitive to an Adobe product because they were thinking, oh, we're going to be part of Adobe.

33:36Why would we bother doing this? And so apparently that created a bottleneck where a lot of stuff that they had had in development for a couple of years stopped developing. And then when the Adobe deal fell through, they turned it all on again, which seems to be what some insiders have leaked to the media as being the reasoning why so many products appeared all at one time so that could be a counter argument to that so one thing i will say having used a good few of these products having used adobe stuff and canvas stuff and figma they all kind of serve different different aspects of design i guess you could say if you are starting from scratch and you're a qualified designer or artist, there's no way that you can give up the Adobe Suite.

34:21They are the most sophisticated product on the market. But Figma definitely has an ease of use, particularly for this type of design, for the UI design, which makes them the best in the market. And so from that aspect, they are competition-free. But then again, with Canva, you're not making anything from scratch on Canva, really. You're basically doing the equivalent of a collage. You know, you take elements that Canva provides, it's a lot of stock imagery, and you bring in your logos and your brand colors and that kind of stuff, and you build out, I don't know, an Instagram post. But again, it's an ease of use thing.