2.7 billion watched FIFA's Club World Cup?

24:31Nick Meacham:straight to netflix or peacon especially when you think when we talk about football the reason it makes as much money as it does lots of stops and starts so yeah or the halftime break or things like that like if i know that there's going to be um a delay in the game for whatever reason like yeah to your point i might jump off and go do something else in the meanwhile exactly i mean

24:50Chris Stone:that's that is inevitable and it's also interesting that youtube did their own type of broadcast production here i heard some people say they got a little bit too youtubey with it but i didn't see enough to determine that because basically I haven't been able to find access yeah I'd haven't been able to find access to it anyway so I just think this we the jury is still out is to know the significance the numbers are I think underwhelming YouTube will tell you they've broke a rope broke a record in concurrent views and and they delivered it fairly seamlessly there's been next to no feedback negatively on the actual delivery of the stream itself but I just think I would love to see more detail i would love to see okay what sort of demographics are we talking um how long were people actually staying on the broadcast there's just so little detail listed there and in fact as i said before um you couldn't find any of these alternative feeds and they made no they've made no mention in the releases afterwards yet they made a big deal of them beforehand i'm just a bit lost as to what's going on there yeah and i i think what

25:54Nick Meacham:would be interesting is what if this was on a what this was the thanksgiving day game what if this was the christmas day game what if it was just a regularly scheduled sunday game um because again i do think there is something to be said about the fact that game would have kicked off unless you are a chiefs fan or a chargers fan that happens to live in europe or asia you're probably not waking up to do that um whereas i think the christmas game that would have been 1 p.m 4 p.m local time it's 6 p.m 9 p.m in the uk far more accessible so i would be curious to know how much that impacted particularly from the international side and like you said like canada's not a small market to lose out on so i don't think all hope is lost um i think there's still more testing to be done and i think numbers could have been improved for fairly simple reasons and i do think it is important to state nick like by simply just not screwing it up is important as well.

26:50Nick Meacham:We've seen other instances trying to do a live stream and it doesn't go well. As hard as it is to build trust, you can lose it very quickly. So I think there is something to be said about just getting it done right.

27:00Chris Stone:Yeah, I agree completely. And I think that's probably one of the reasons a hundred million dollar investment in these rights is a relative drop in the ocean for YouTube. So maybe for themselves as well, it was as much about testing their capabilities of delivering a feed and scale such as this through their own channels. But I obviously naturally was most interested in what they would do with it commercially and what audiences they would get. And that stuff still is clouded in a bit of uncertainty. Now, I do think your point's pretty, really important that like internationally, which has been the biggest surprise, I think for some people is that was only 1.1 million.

27:37Chris Stone:And look, yeah, it's the time zone is the timing and the time zone is a big problem. It's a big thing. You know, if they run it as an early game or as a lunchtime game, like let's say they pick one of the London games in the UK and then play that one at a much better time zone you would see those numbers skyrocket I think by 2, 3, 4x easily would be my guess particularly because it would be accessible to Asia as well so lots lots I guess I feel a little bit not let down but I feel a little bit I'm not really I was getting pretty pumped like thinking this is going to be they're going to come and show all these numbers and these numbers are going to blow everyone away because you'll have the collection of these, all these alternative broadcasts on top of the base broadcast.

28:21Chris Stone:But it's like, maybe I'm sure it's intentional. Maybe YouTube wanted to be compared against those other streamers. Maybe it was intentional that they wanted to go, we're going to talk just average minute audience and be compared to the other streamers because they want other rights owners to think like that and talk about us like that and not talk about us like we're still this glorified social media platform, which obviously they're not, but you might get my point um so i i'm still left a bit on on what would i say unhappy is not the right word a bit like a bit unsure what we really learned from this experience though i'm sure youtube learned a truckload about platform about what sort of revenue they could generate what audiences they

29:05Nick Meacham:could move uh etc let's just say i'd be surprised if there weren't more moves in the future um i that's just my that's just my gut feeling um the shoes real out of momentum one final bit on on

29:15Chris Stone:the measurement i should say is i wrote it on the uh the post i did as well that that there was a bit of um also coverage in the news prior to the game and a lot of unhappiness from various media outlets because nielsen did a special custom analysis for the youtube game and didn't compare it to standard tv rating so maybe that is one of the reasons they've used a traditional ama in this instance because they basically have taken a bit of a shortcut there uh with with how the numbers have been measured um and the nfl pushed back on that they argue that there's millions of viewers being systematically undercounted by nielsen's approach uh in this instance um so nielsen caught a lot of grief but they are still the uh the the benchmark for this industry and until someone comes up with a better approach i'm uh i guess that's what we've got to rely on yeah well like said, I'm sure we'll find out and learn more.

30:10Nick Meacham:We hope you're enjoying the show. I just want to give a quick shout out to one of our founding StreamTime community members, LucidLink. Distributed Teams, massive files, zero time to waste. In live sports and broadcasting, if you're waiting on files to transfer, sync, or download, you're already losing the race. LucidLink's cloud-native file system gives your team real-time access to massive media files from anywhere. Say goodbye to syncing and downloading and hello to instant collaboration with tools you use every day like Premiere Pro, DaVinci Resolve, and Media Composer. Whether you're cutting high res match footage, color grading remotely, or managing production across different time zones, LucidLink makes remote workflows feel like you're in the same room.

30:46Nick Meacham:From ESPN and McLaren Racing to Warner Brothers and Paramount, production teams trust LucidLink to create without the wait. Try LucidLink free today at lucidlink.com and make remote collaboration feel local.

31:00Nick Meacham:Next story, Nick, one that came up a couple days ago and is off the back of more news. It's not necessarily directly streaming related. The first bit of news, which is longtime chairman of Tottenham Hotspur, Daniel Levy, has stepped down. That has led to lots of speculation about the club might be up for sale and other ramifications of when a long-term chairman steps down. But one thing that has happened, Nick, and you can correct me if I pronounced this wrong, but they have agreed to receive 90 million up front from McCary, McCorry, McCorry, McCorry, McCorry. Pronunciation's not really my thing, but they are going to receive a 90 million exchange or 90 million up front in exchange for future broadcasting rights income.

31:44Nick Meacham:And there is some nuance and some of what that means. So, Nick, I don't think this is the first time we've seen this. I think most famously we've seen this with Barcelona as they've been trying to pull various levers to try to meet financial ramifications to being able to register players. But I can't think of this having taken place in the Premier League yet. But, you know, Nick, I think we've talked a little bit sometimes about private equity and its role in sports. Has it worked? I think some of the stuff we've talked about, Ligun, whether or not the private equity they receive, people are necessarily thrilled about.

32:23Nick Meacham:There's been stuff with rugby as well. But now we're seeing it with Tottenham. Maybe the argument is the Premier League really is too big to fail. But there's also pros and cons for Tottenham about getting the money up front and what does long term. But it is specifically in regards to their media income moving forward. So that's why we're going to wrap it into stream time, because that's what we talk about, Nick. we talk about sports media. So with this particular story, Nick, just what kind of stands out to you about it?

32:52Chris Stone:Well, yeah, it's just the fact that it's such a short term. It's basically just a bank loan. And the bank loan and the guarantee is the media rights revenue that they're set to receive in the coming 12 months. They've basically taken a short term loan to pay off their transfer bill, which is massive debt. I think it was like 150 million euros roughly was the number that they'd spent is what I've read somewhere. I haven't seen how validated. And so they've just taken a short-term loan to pay off this debt they've got outstanding. And the reason I think it's just interesting is, yeah, I don't think I've seen too many examples of this getting out publicly that a Premier League club has used it for such a short-term nature.

33:32Chris Stone:We have seen a couple of examples of where media rights have been used as the guarantor for certain types of investment deals and getting longer-term loans. though Barcelona is a great example. Part of the CVC deal with Aliga is also related to media rights revenues from memory as well. But it really shocks me and surprises me that we're still in this phase, that these clubs, these massive, massive clubs still need to take short-term loans like this. It doesn't feel right. I'm sure it's fine. I think it makes probably a lot of sense actually and probably just some smart financing to not pay lofty interest rates from getting a massive overdraft for a period of time.

34:11Chris Stone:But we have to take short-term loans just to pay off a transfer. And this is all happening at the same time. Their chairman's now leaving the club or stepping down immediately. It's just not really good optics, I think, for the club and indeed for the league who is under intense scrutiny as to how it's being managed financially to begin with because it's being managed with the mindset of we don't need to be profitable because our values are just going to keep growing and growing. But if we're getting to a point now where we have to start taking short-term loans to pay the bills, at what point is that value growth curve just really going to start going in decline?

34:45Chris Stone:So it's just not good for optics, I think, for the league, if anything.

34:48Nick Meacham:Well, I think it's also because those that don't follow the Premier League, they have PSR, which is profitability and sustainability sort of regulations to make sure that clubs don't go bankrupt because it's not necessarily kind of the true franchise model you see in the States. And we've seen football clubs in the UK basically go bust because they were just spending more money than they actually had. And PSR, depending on who you ask and who's impacted by it, will tell you it's about the long-term sustainability of clubs. Some will say it limits some clubs. But nonetheless, these are the types of things that perhaps they're going to have to get creative about.

35:22Nick Meacham:Todd Bowley and Chelsea, they've been criticized for selling a hotel to write off some of Chelsea's debts. Man, you've gotten some flack about selling their women's team to clear the books. There's a lot of things taking place. And to be honest, Nick, I'd be shocked if we didn't see more of this, that this is a way to potentially navigate the waters that PSR have created.

35:46Chris Stone:Yeah, I would say actually that this because it's so short term, I actually have less of a problem with it in isolation than the longer term. Are we going to get a few hundred million and it's going to be paid back over the next couple of hundred years? couple of years um uh because again i just think you're taking it's basically you are taking an active bet on your club's future right then and there and if you get it wrong then you leave them in a massive hole for years to come barcelona is the best example of that by absolute mile but you think about it like the in context again we'll go back to american sports and their use of draft picks and so forth you see the same sort of thing right where a club will decide, right, we're going all in.

36:30Chris Stone:We're going to spend our draft picks to pick up this star player, but they have to pay a massive salary. And if they get it wrong, that means in the coming years, no young talent prospects coming through. And then they've got to start building up another way all over again. And it just feels like that's almost like the Premier League's version of this a little bit. It's like we're taking a short-term bet to get these extra new players in to try and see if we can spark the club into performance. And hopefully we're not putting it in too much jeopardy for the long term. But I just think now they've done it.

37:02Chris Stone:Yeah. You could see a couple more clubs do it and then it could just go from a small six month window like this is to a year or two years and three years. And then we'll see a few more clubs in trouble, I think.

37:13Nick Meacham:Yeah. And we won't segue too far, Nick, because we could talk about the NFL allowing private equity and minority stake ownership. I think the whole private equity thing, whether I agree with it or not, probably just going to be more common in general, but that's a whole can of worms, Nick, that we can probably save and do an entire podcast on as opposed to trying to give our answer in 30 seconds.

37:34Chris Stone:Well, the interesting thing that you have to consider with private equity, and I think it's some people who don't follow finance wouldn't be too aware of this, and I'm definitely not an expert, but I've just had a lot of conversations with people over time, is the one thing you have to know is that with private equity deals, when an investor comes, that's got a host of different investors paying money into this private equity fund is how the fund actually makes its money isn't just from whether there's a return at the end of the campaign. They also get a return basically on the transactions themselves.

38:14Chris Stone:So what you can see happen, I've heard of some instances of this, I've been given some examples, whereas basically you'll see an organization, sorry, a private equity investor, buy a property. Let's say it's a sports property in this instance. And the only person they're going to be able to sell it to is another private equity investor because they will only be the ones willing to do that deal basically on the notion that both sides will get some sort of transaction return off the back of doing that deal. Even if most people will be like, I can't see how they got to that number, but it's in everyone's best interest to keep, almost keep the private equity economy ticking over.

38:52Chris Stone:Everyone gets a little bit of extra money as a result of it. So it makes it very tricky to determine whether some of these investments are sound investments or again, just another version of kicking the can down the road a little bit.

39:03Nick Meacham:Well, next story we'll talk about, Nick, is one we have followed. There's just still smoke at this point. We've not located the source of the fire. But speaking about Formula One, we have talked about their deal is coming up to an expiry with ESPN. It's worth noting that current deal is worth$85 million per year. Reports have said they're looking to try to essentially double that number, looking at getting upwards to$150 million a year. We've heard different rumors, different sources, Netflix, NBC. But what we have heard or recently heard was that talks are advanced for their new U.S. broadcaster, not specified who those advanced talks are with but rumors seem to say that that might be apple um so nick it's been a while since we've talked about f1 but it is something we knew was coming up because that expiry date and it sounded like espn was unlikely to match their demands and there were questions about whether their demands were too high um the next set of questions are should they chase the big paycheck and go with a Netflix or an Apple who may not have the media capabilities that ESPN does to promote Formula One or take a cheaper price for someone that can talk about them long-term.

40:24Nick Meacham:So I guess, Nick, we're a little bit closer. It seems like the winds are blowing towards Apple. What do you make of that? Well, I don't think...

40:33Chris Stone:Do we ever talk much about the Formula One movie at all?

40:37Nick Meacham:I think we referenced it when we were talking about the rumors of where formula one might end up next and we sort of said they've had success with apple off the back of the movie so it would suggest that but i don't think we talked too much about the movie specifically well i thought it's just to go good

40:53Chris Stone:to go back to that for a second because i think it's all linked right because apple was involved so heavily with that and the fact that the um there was much made of the fact that they had basically sold an incredible amount of sponsorship for the actual movie itself which was uh a huge bank roller for it any guesses how much that movie is made approximately so far

41:14Nick Meacham:in terms of just profit or just okay i'll give you a tip i'll give you a total revenue

41:19Chris Stone:opening weekend it did 144 million in its opening weekend so i was going to say 250 million is my guess uh the reports here are that it's at 600 million worldwide blew me out the water yeah Yeah, crazy numbers when you think about how significant that is and if that number is accurate. That's the only numbers that have come up here through a quick search. But then with all these numbers we're talking about here with regards to these media rights, well, that is the value of the media rights for the whole cycle if they get the deal they want for a four-year cycle. And it's all wrapped into this one Formula One movie.

41:57Chris Stone:So just interestingly, I think, compare that with everything else that's going on. I have to say that just generally going back to this story coming up again through different sources. I just think that basically Liberty Media's and maybe F1's media sales teams are working very hard to use the media to try and generate more competition and interest in these rights because there's no way it just keeps coming up this often, a similar version of the same story unless they're pushing it hard. I'm not buying the smoke and fire analogy here. I think it's that they are pushing it hard to get that message out there, particularly after talking to some media experts.

42:38Chris Stone:They just think that the valuation they're after is just mad. Now, what they can do with Apple is not only is that traditional media rights deal, which I'm still skeptical of its value unless they wrap the F1 TV product in it, is also that is Apple ready to roll it all together as part of basically a sponsorship deal? Like F1's the best in the business are doing big tech sponsorship arrangements and agreements, right? Are they able to wrap this into something much more than just a full-blown media rights deal, including perhaps Formula One 2, as in the sequel to the Formula One movie wrapped in together?

43:18I just think this could end up being,

43:22Chris Stone:if Apple do, are seriously going to be into this, that the deal will end up being much more comprehensive and not look at all like a media rights deal, is my guess. I can't see anyone outbidding them except maybe the big spenders are paramount now with their new ownership after what they spent with UFC. It would make a logical, they want to make another big splash. This is a very cheap splash in comparison.

43:47Nick Meacham:No, that's a good shout. I hadn't thought about that, but I like it.

43:51Chris Stone:They're going to keep talking about Netflix. They're going to keep talking about Apple. They're going to keep talking about everyone, but ultimately those rights, even the numbers that are being shared in the industry and from what I've heard and what they're sharing. They're not big numbers, but because it's Formula One, because their business model, because they're global, basically, and their business model isn't just built around media rights, it still feels like a really significant deal for them to lock down and get the right media partner, whatever they do.

44:18Nick Meacham:What this makes me think of, Nick, is like I'm almost a little bit jealous because in the UK we've talked about this. It's Sky Sports, it's TNT, and the zone are trying, and there's some other things. like we don't get paramount versus espn versus nbc versus fox sports versus netflix versus youtube like i just feel like we don't get these heavyweight fights like this is enjoyable talking about who's going to get it well the thing is we've had them they're just that that sky knocked

44:44Chris Stone:everyone out along the way basically they've come and they've gone there's been a lot of contenders uh have i told you the story about how um when bt sport popped out of nowhere in the market and certain executives at Sky were very clear to us they did not want to be in the same room with them and it was just after they'd launched and mocked up the Champions League rights. They were not too happy about BT Sport arriving on the scene and were not too keen to be at the same event involved from a speaking perspective at that time. But after that, they obviously made life hard for each other and then got a lot closer together and now the market tension is now not what it used to be.

45:25Chris Stone:But then if you go back to the legacy of others that have come and gone, Satanta and ESPN in the UK, they've all tried to have a crack at Sky and they've all lost. Yeah.

45:33Nick Meacham:There you go. Come for the champ. Better not miss.

45:38Chris Stone:Well, who's next though? Okay. Let's, let's, let's play a bit of hypothetical. Who should have a crack at the UK next? A serious crack.

45:47Nick Meacham:I'll be honest with you. like i just love free to air but i know it's not coming from bbc or channel 4 itv i want free to air stuff the only one i can think of that's free to air is youtube um but we've talked about them quite a bit but i don't see them getting in the uh the premier league game because i feel like if you're going to come for it like it's got to be the premier league like it's just so much ahead of everything else from a priority perspective it's sort of like you know The Zone have done some nice things in the UK, but they don't have the Premier League. So I don't think they're considered that heavily over here.

46:21Nick Meacham:And I feel like if you don't have the Premier League, you can't be taken seriously. And I just don't know who's coming in for that.

46:27Chris Stone:I don't either, to be honest. And I think because Sky's business is so built up in this bundle approach, the telco layer to it, the cable offering, as well as the pay TV part. And they've done all these deals. They've been so smart at getting all these domestic deals where they basically own football in the UK. it'd be very difficult for them to rip that out of Sky the Premier League and Sky as we've talked about before are the best best of buddies for various reasons to this point but I would love to just see someone throw an absolute cat amongst the pigeons and come up with a big massive offer to blow Sky away and then throw the market into disarray for a while but I still think Sky will hold on for a while but then when you see what's happened in scott in germany with sky deutschland selling you know com cars ain't afraid to move on because uh the markets market dynamics have changed so who knows maybe someone will come and buy

47:20Nick Meacham:buy sky who knows dick maybe um because i know who was upset at the time um sky was upset when chelsea wanted to put paramount plus on the uh oh yeah front of their jersey sponsor so i know paramount maybe they have international plans one day you just talked about they got some new new deep pockets you know maybe that maybe that's where it is maybe i mean just segue chelsea on

47:44Chris Stone:chelsea's shirt front of shirt deals they had paramount plus and that was the other one infinite

47:49Nick Meacham:athlete is that still on there i don't know the only thing i know i have no idea i mean fifa's gonna catch a stray here the only thing i know it's on the front of their jersey is that absolutely ugly like champions logo like i get it like you want to commemorate being the world champions but my gosh it is an eyesore on that jersey it's that that i know we tend to be objective nick but that is my subjective opinion about the state of chelsea's jerseys at the moment uh yeah i haven't

48:15Chris Stone:seen i haven't paid much attention to how they look but uh i don't think anyone the fact that let's not let's not go down the rabbit hole there with the club let's let's move on because we've given them enough air time yeah the last story we'll wrap up on today nick we're going we're

48:28Nick Meacham:going to your ends we're going we're going to sweden and we're going to talk about a deal there that maybe other people won't pay attention to, but it is a big deal in Sweden, and you're going to tell us why it's a big deal and what it means. And I think it's also interesting because of who they've chosen to partner with just kind of based on their business model is doing something slightly a little bit different, and that is that Pluto TV in Sweden has secured exclusive Swedish broadcast rights to the European handball championships in European League. It may not be a big deal for us, but apparently in Sweden, this is a massive deal.

49:00Nick Meacham:And then, like I said as well, Pluto TV is not one of your traditional, you know, big, big businesses, traditional stuff like that. It goes about it in its own way. So, Nick, tell me why this is a great story.

49:13Chris Stone:I mean, you built it up quite a lot here. I don't know if it's a massive deal, but it's a deal that is interesting, I think, for a couple of reasons. One is that the Swedish market, I'm still coming to grips with a little bit, but basically it's very established in a very traditional model of the big, it's the bundles from the various big players, basically is what governs where most of the rights are sitting currently. So most of the major sporting events will be on one of the major pay providers, so your via plays and your tellers, et cetera. Or that might be with one of the major free-to-air broadcasters, like SVT or TV4.

49:55Chris Stone:and for handball it's like one of these sneaky big sports here it gets a lot of coverage when it's you know when it's the the european championships and the world championships and i just think pluto coming to play here a fast platform you know a fully ad supported available on basically all streaming um so all smart tvs these days picking up a pretty decent set of media rights with some major, which houses some major Swedish players in the competition. It's a club tournament, club competition. It's just something to pay attention to more for the wider industry. Is Pluto now finally going to start picking up some more rights again and playing that free and ad supported card to make the most of those rights investments?

50:41Chris Stone:Because otherwise, it was just staying with the incumbents in markets like this. And that's why there wasn't, Again, not a huge amount of competitive tension in Sweden, outside of Disney Plus doing a couple of small minor deals, but they were very minor. So I think it's just something for us to pay attention to more than anything. Is Pluto TV going to start making a few more strategic investments across sports rights in other European markets as they try and build their struggle hold of the fast ecosystem?

51:13Nick Meacham:Well, you mentioned, because you've been to a couple of different events in Sweden, that Sweden actually has a very high propensity for streaming and smart TV. So something like Fast may be more accessible in other markets. Because I think, to your point, I can remember the Sports from New York event two years ago. We were kind of highlighting Fast as something we thought could be an impactful game changer, partly because we believe in how impactful the advertising model is. But it feels like it's maybe not picked up as much steam or kept some of that momentum, we thought. So to your point, seeing it pick back up, not that it would, don't call it a comeback, been doing it for years, I believe is the quote.

51:52Nick Meacham:It's not that the Fast model has just died off, But, you know, maybe, as you say, just something to pay attention to in the background.

52:00Chris Stone:Yeah, I think it's something to pay attention to because it is a set of live sports rides going on to a more general platform. They're creating a handball channel, I think, as well as part of that. Look, I mean, and I have seen a couple of announcements of other fast channels being launched again. So we're seeing a bit more of that come to the fore. I think what ultimately has happened over time is within the fast space is that those who have launched platforms have done so with pretty low-key sets of rights. They haven't really tested anything with any significance. It was actually an interesting experience when I finally unpacked, in our house, we finally unpacked our UK TV.

52:40Chris Stone:and I had to reset it to get all the Swedish channels and stuff on it and to see how many more sports apps were available than I had understood on my Samsung TV. And this is such a weird mix of people with fast channels on there. You're talking fast channels and OTT platforms generally, like from tier two Spanish clubs through to Red Bull to everyone else in between. So I'm just curious to see, again, basically is another player going to be able to find a way to make FAST viable for the investment of live sports rights. It's another signal, just another small signal that more opportunity is being made available.

53:21Chris Stone:Sorry, there's more interest and consideration about using alternatives outside those traditional partnerships if you can't get the deal you want to. Not YouTube, but in this instance, looking at FAST, and Pluto is one of the best in the business at it.

53:36Nick Meacham:Absolutely. Well, it is something we'll continue to follow, continue to cover. and thank you once again everybody for joining us for another episode of Stream Time Sports.