How TikTok is helping sports and broadcasters reach the fans that TV can't touch

26:49Just how, is that as big as it sounds for you guys to try and creating more of a complete experience or you already have been doing a lot of that already and it's just kind of the next step in a subtle evolution? So we had, I think it's something like 62 different game plan campaigns last year, starting with Super Bowl as the first one. So we've been doing it across pretty much all major sports. There are very few we, if we miss out on the really like top, top IP which has relevance you know across two more two or more continents let's say so we're getting there what's hard is we now are changing user behavior and pattern right so it's people predominantly are coming to TikTok just to you know consume content they may not expect to go look at the live scores or check the standings one of my favorite things about game plan as a user is I go to the Premier League's page and I can see the table which is great I feel like I never remember who's worse it's always fun to check back I I can look at the fixtures and various things, but the content now on that page is basically any official account, any account which has come through with the right hashtag in time-based order.

27:54So I can click into that destination and I can swipe through that weekend's Premier League action from like a real different diverse range of uploaders. And so it's kind of like TikTok's version of Match of the Day. So you'll have the TNT content, the Sky content, Premier League, your NBC in the US, wherever you are. right and that is a really fun experience but maybe most people don't know that quite yet and i'm obviously probably a heavier user than most as working here but what we're trying to do is over time change that behavior so we are a destination not only sports video content but just sports as a whole to consume do you um that the notion of like creating this experience in a destination to point people to are you doing that in any other sectors or is really sports kind of the litmus test for TikTok to do that?

28:40We've got an amazing proposition in entertainment around movies. And so that's where, you know, there'll be IP relating to movies. And it drives through to these ones and you can buy tickets to go see in the cinema. And so it's a similar concept. And definitely in the entertainment world, really successful for TikTok. Do you think that at some stage, maybe this is a bit further down the line, but you would have a notion of, let's say, a major sports property leaning into game plan heavily enough that they wouldn't even need their own app and destination. They could just be pointing to their TikTok platform or product because it seems like the platforms that I look at and use, major events ones, the main reason I go to them is looking at some of the stuff that you guys are having.

29:21Why not have it in just one destination rather than fragmenting that experience and having a separate app altogether? Maybe. Honestly, I haven't thought of it that way. So maybe after this, I should think about it that way. Right now, for sure, it's about complementing both the league and broadcasters' official offering. Because we are very aware that by doing that, we are making sure that we're building their critical business. And, you know, broadcasters monetize the users best on their broadcast. So that's how we see ourselves as a really, really driving value. But from a live perspective, that's probably something which has surprised me just at the beginning of this year, is how successful rights holders and broadcasters are using TikTok live.

30:06So all last year, we had kind of tests to try and prove out some live concepts. So we had an ISO cam stream of just messy with Apple. We then developed that fervor of Apple where it would follow five different players. The messy cam was viewed 6.4 million times live. So we knew that there was definitely an appetite. But a really great example is Fox Sports. They are almost going towards a point where they could be live 24-7 on TikTok with something. So straight after a live golf tournament, they live streamed the exact same tournament straight away the whole thing after it finished. And so it still didn't cannibalize their broadcast audience at all from the live perspective and had like a secondary replay factor.

30:48Or they started a lot for the Euros and Cop America in 2024 where they would live stream all of their pre-match content. and then they would leave like a live look-in of the first 10 minutes. And that's a critical part of our FIFA preferred platform agreement is where broadcasters globally can live stream the first 10 minutes of every game. And that's, to be fair, come from like the genius of the team working at Fox Sports. So they're consistently seeing it as either A, great way to build an audience on TikTok, or B, they're very aware that it can drive through to their owner-operator as well.

31:22The example that you gave with Messi and Apple, we've seen a few examples of particularly soccer and football trying that initiative of having either the single player cam or the vertical broadcast live. We haven't seen that. It seems to be that we have not seen that pick up as a consistent ongoing action like the Fox Sports example you gave. Why is that? Is it being more just trial and error or trial and testing at the moment only? I think it's, one, finding the partners who want to lean in as well. Like, it's not the most immediate thing that everyone's thinking to do. So it's finding really adventurous and fantastic partners to collaborate with.

32:01And it's also, if you boil it down, it's a marketing mechanism. Someone comes to TikTok, they see a bit of messy, and if they want to watch the whole game, they know then that they can go to Apple to watch the full game in that experience. And we are very happy for that to be a key part of our value proposition. And so I think that's quite unique to TikTok as part of what we want to do. And then it's hopefully, actually, something where we do start to broaden this out more. And I think the World Cup would be the perfect environment to see how successful that first 10-minute live has worked for such a critical tournament around the world.

32:36One of the things you talked about was highlights. Certainly something we've talked about. one of the things that came up was the event that we had with you guys was around the importance of getting highlights out as soon as possible and you know there were clear success markers for how soon you get a highlight out but I think one of the other things as well about highlights and interesting your commentary on this is tick-tock being around the community the content creator side of things obviously one of the key features you know you could stitch a video something like that where there's the original highlight that's gone out from the rights holder but then someone has stitched something additionally to that so I guess how do you see the performance of when something goes from beyond just the own channel to a separate creator's gone on and stitched something you know are there examples where the actual the conversation that was led through using those other features on the platform have actually outperformed the original highlighter sort of what you see in terms of that having the ability on the platform for the community to engage with content that's already been put out on official channels yeah I don't know if I have the exact example of the Stitch one being more than the original, but I'm sure it has happened.

33:42What I could do the other way around is take when a user has done something really interesting with their original sound, and then the rights holder has taken that original sound and put it into their content. So there you've got the user creating the IP technically, and the rights holder is using it to make their video more interesting. There was this amazing one where just a creator hit that hip bone against the banister of the stairs and made a Yelp sound. and then people have like edited that into like so many different songs, mashed it together and then I've seen lots of Premier League football clubs use the mashup of that song and this is the weird and wonderful, you know, kerfuffle mix of TikTok where like things kind of merge together to create something beautifully creative and fun.

34:21So I would say the original sound side definitely bleeds in really well to the rights holder and then from a stitch and duet point of view, it's all about what we encourage users to have that enabled as well, the rights holder to keep that on as well. And I guess adding to that, we were talking about discoverability, and I'm going to loop this back in. There's intentionally going out and searching for something. For example, we were talking before this, like I use TikTok to find recipes. So there's sometimes like I'm very specifically putting in birria taco recipe. But then also I can also find things just organically that come up through my feed.

34:56So there's sort of that difference between like being served content because you have organically gone out of your way to find it versus the algorithm has found what you want based on that. Just out of curiosity for TikTok in terms of because some fans might go looking for sports content versus some fans just might be served it because of what's gone on there, is there any sort of strategy you give to them thinking about how they think about their content that not all of their content is necessarily going to be something that people are directly searching? It may just be something, I think Nick and I have called it stumbleability, which I don't think is a real word, but is there any sort of thought for those rights holders or sports broadcasters that not every piece of content they make is something that someone's explicitly searching for.

35:34It might just be something they stumble across. I think most of TikTok is stumbled across. Also, one of the, I think, on mobile, the amount of searches, TikTok is now number one. So there's a huge amount of people searching for content. That's definitely there. I especially recommend educational content, so people learning about a sport. And that's why when you have those creators out there explaining how the MLB rules work, so valuable for the sport. And I think it's so underestimated by everyone, really, how much that gets people through the door. So a lot of the stumble upon element is there.

36:14But the search aspect of TikTok is really powerful as well. I was going to say it's probably the other way around. The stumbling part is TikTok almost in that sense. But it's the how do you get people to take that journey of intentionally finding things and finding the right things. is probably more the question mark I think I would have on how you'd navigate that journey, which game plan and stuff is probably part of that. Yes, that's a critical part. So that's taking TikTok as an absolute reach machine of finding audiences. That's really a major part of the USP. And then the game plan products are there to amplify, but also divert.

36:50So divert search users to an official destination. Divert people from the For You page to their match destination. This is all part of that plan. And then when we advise rights holders, there's, for example, creating content around trends. So there's a really wonderful trend, which is unexpected edits. I don't know if you've seen this, but it's where it'll be like a viral clip of something which has happened before. There was one with someone falling down the stairs and they're falling along their knees. And it immediately cuts, and you don't realize, to Didier Drogba's celebration where he slides on his knees.

37:21And so that's an amazing trend where the video I just described, the secondary element was the FA Cup account taking the drug, that element. So if one of the ways you can try and capitalize the stumble upon, it's definitely not an official word. But if you want to capitalize on that few page TikTok side, working across trends is definitely effective as well. I was just going to say that unexpected edit when this podcast was over because I can't describe it on this show. There's a great one with Harry Maguire that's exactly like that. We're like, it's a curveball. It's not what you're expecting.

37:56And then Harry Maguire comes in. I have shared it with a few friends. I don't think I can share it on this podcast, but very funny, like form of content, 100%. So you're working with a lot of sports broadcasters and sports properties themselves. Naturally, there's ways, I always hear this is like, how much is enough? How much resources is enough to put and commit to content? And I'm sure you're having lots of conversations about how to approach using the platform, but also they must be looking for signals on how to get the most bang for their buck in terms of resource and time, particularly in this world.

38:31What are some of the tips, perhaps, that you're giving them around that? Is it basically just some of the stuff we've been talking about in terms of letting your fans do the work for you, in a sense, and doing those things? Or is there other things that you give advice and tips to those broadcasters and platforms? Yeah, I have a world-class team here who are fantastic at working with each of those types of organizations. We work on some business review process where we will do an amazing analysis of past performance. And so one of the best ways to encourage Watch the Edge to do more is not on a whim, not on our opinions.

39:02It's just to look at the data of what's worked and encourage those partners to do the same thing again. We've done that before with a partner who was posting their highlights but way later than others around the same topic. And we showed them if they posted earlier how much more effective that would be. We showed them their own data of when they did, but also the fact that after 30 minutes, a large amount of the interest in a specific match has already declined. So a lot of what we do is trying to only base it on empirical facts versus just kind of encouraging people to do more for the sake of doing more.

39:37It's very much more scientific to say, we think if you do this, this will succeed and that kind of side. Yeah, but that makes loads of sense. And using data always definitely helps tell the story. So why is it your mission to therefore help them get more out of the platform? Is the end result that you're measuring? The TikTok is just trying to drive up engagement on the platform and more time spent on platform or more users? Or is it all of the above? Or is there a specific mandate? Or what's the greater goal with all this work that you guys are putting into? So overall is to be a really primary destination for sports content.

40:15So if you're coming to the app to be entertained with sports, but also to catch up on the action or to see the latest scores, that kind of side overall. With that, how long people are watching sports content will matter. And that can be one of the ways we just are checking in to see how successful we are in achieving that longer-term goal. I think for me, one of the things is around trying to connect all the different TikTok revenue streams towards a rights holder. So we have TikTok Shop, which could be really effective for teams in selling their shirts. There's a large live revenue gifting side of TikTok where that could be quite effective for broadcasters.

40:54We have some ad monetization solutions as well. So for me, goal-wise, this is less TikTok's goal, but more my goal towards partners and any entity we work with is seeing how we can drive greater revenues as well. Now, that's always the big question I have with any social platform, TikTok especially, is that monetization piece. You mentioned a bunch of them there. How far along are they to be able to really provide meaningful, direct ROI and return on the investment of resource on the platform versus inching up its impact? I think it's a balance between for some sectors, some partners, really meaningful, some areas still growing.

41:35and then the combination of the four I mentioned, we haven't cracked that yet, of really combining it so there's a unique value proposition of different sources that partners couldn't get anywhere else. And that's something where if that's the right element, we know we would be valuable in that sense. I also think all of what we discussed around half a million users for DAZN going to their website and app, that is in itself in many ways much more important than any revenue platform can drive. So if we can do it all, that's amazing. And we're trying to grow all of the different pies at the same time.

42:12Well, innately, if they're driving audiences from the platform of choice in TikTok directly to their platform, the cost of that acquisition of a potential subscriber is going to be fractional to the amount they're spending on potentially acquiring audiences. If you look at some of the numbers you see from some of the major streaming players, so that is obviously going to be innately much more valuable than making a bit of money out of the e-commerce platform that's marginal on the P &L. Yeah, well, I think that's one of the challenges sports has at the moment is you often hear the younger generations aren't necessarily as interested in sports, which I don't know how true that is or isn't.

42:46But there's the balance between monetising today versus growing fandom for the long term and just what that appropriate balance is. And I don't know for you, TikTok, if there's a view on that in terms of balancing that out. Because obviously I don't think you want to – I don't think fans want to be felt like they're just, you know, an empty wallet for organizations to be turning money over. But you're also trying to find that right balance between the two. And I think to Nick's point, like there are the features that you could turn on the monetization tabs, but also how you balance that out with just growing fandom because you need that base, particularly with younger generations coming through.

43:21Yeah, like TikTok has over a billion users. So as you can imagine, there's going to be lots of young people. There's going to be middle-aged people, older people all using the app. There's going to be a real diverse spread. But the rights holders are aware that there's a great cross-section of Gen Z and millennials using TikTok they can access. But more interestingly, around more female demographic sports, we had a research of Ipsos, which shows 62 % of women chose TikTok as their primary destination to go to for sports content. We also know from our own data that almost half of all U.S. viewers on sports-specific videos are women.

43:59And so if you looked at any stadium in New York, any stadium around the world, and you had all the seats and you colored half one and half the other, you would not get 50-50 of male and female viewers of a given sport. So we have a unique point of view on both youth audiences, but also female that All of the revenue generating side but also that fan base that fan base you haven't tapped into yet All the fan base you may be at risk of losing or not acquiring at all So that's where I think we we can really have a meaningful value exchange Which is is recognized and understood by the partners as well You're really good at this because I was the next question I was gonna bring up was talking about that female audience specifically that came up in that presentation from the data from 2025.

44:41What do you think you can attribute that to? Because as you say, there's multiple platforms out there. What specifically about TikTok is driving that usage from female sports fans? Yeah, it's the content. There's a lot of different things. But we were talking earlier, it's an acceptable place to learn about a sport. And you don't feel excluded because you don't know about the tire degradation I was mentioning of F1. there's a great example of an NBA related video which is like the baddie index made where it's like have you guys seen this where it's like a really great statistical analysis of how well a basketball player plays when a famous celebrity is on the bench so it's like Rihanna's there and you know x player scored 10 more points per whatever it is and that was just a really great funny interesting well-made piece of content that could be enjoyed by anyone even just completely non-sports fans and that sums up tiktok is it's a uh easy but um fun and accepting way to get into a sport and that's why i think uh those stats around female viewership audience and coming to tiktok for their sports content is maybe also because the sports content on tiktok isn't anywhere else trends start on tiktok um you know the jet two holidays uh everyone in america knows what about a British package holiday company.

46:01It makes no sense. That is bad, yeah. Right? Like that, whatever it might be, over the years, all of these trends are starting on TikTok. So it means that the cultural side of entertainment, of sports is happening. And so you can enjoy a sport without really needing to get deeply invested, or you can also become a mega fan as well. So that is obviously clear that it's driving new audiences to the platform. One of the challenges that I hear that sports say is that sadly their actual sporting content because you guys use the definition of sport content that encompasses stuff like that but all the content we've been talking about the baddie index is an example uh which is great and i think it is sports content but from sports properties typically what they see gets content is the live match and the highlights only it feels like that everything that does the best on these platforms typically is not those things and it's all the stuff around the edges, the fan-created stuff, the more creative ideas like that.

46:59Just how do you talk to sports about that conundrum? Do you say that just accept it and embrace it? Or do you say you've got a bit of a challenge with your sporting product, but you can create some really cool stuff around the edges and just focus on that instead because that was working better? So for us, it's actually the opposite in the sense that all of the user research we've done, both in-app, off-app, shows that the number one type of content users want to see as highlights and recaps. Whether it's someone who watches a couple of minutes a week of sports up to 20 hours from the super casual to the hardcore fans, that's the number one type of content.

47:37And on TikTok, it's about the creative highlights we mentioned, like split screen, where the bottom half is the goal and the top half is the family reacting or a mic'd up celebrity in the audience like it's highlights but with like a tick tock creative uh spin on it but that is so needed and so desired all of our research is how important that is and we're working with our partners to increase that supply on the platform um so there's that part and then whenever we have gone live um we're noticing a really big effect so like messy six and 6.4 million unique viewers on that one stream um the the all of the fox examples those are performing really well wwe for example they live stream, so for WrestleMania, they live stream the year before all the way leading up to it.

48:24And they'll go live for four hours. And the amount of viewership on that is staggeringly high, considering it's a year old content. So I think it's a myth actually, like from a rights holder perspective, the core product is critical on TikTok. But we're also, as mentioned quite a lot, and I don't want to over-egg the point, we're quite happy to drive to their core products so that it's sustainable and really healthy as a sport as well. To create a full value loop back. I thought when we had the European tour on the event, they were pointing. Most of the examples they did have, however, were more the side content rather than the actual highlight stuff that worked best.

48:58But they also are very good at creating that shoulder content or more fun stuff. I'll say not to promote the Sports Pro Media Awards, they did win Best Short Form Content, and it was what they were doing with TikTok. They set up a program as the sports content creator that they ran where basically they were basically running classes for the golfers on how to make the best content, but it was sort of behind the scenes. It was set up, like it wasn't true behind the scenes footage. Fun on the wall kind of thing. So they did really well there. But yeah, again, it was all sort of shouldery content.

49:29Yeah, I remember they were saying that was like the best performing stuff for them, which maybe it's just because they do a really good job with it. But you can also have these massive viral videos, which may be really like sometimes we don't even know why. And then sometimes it's because it was like a really funny behind the scenes element. One of my favorite sports, for example, is Bakaya Saka at the 2020 World Cup, his Saka's spelling school. Him going to all his other teammates to see if they could spell certain words. Like, just gold. It's a comedy. It's amazing. It's fun. And what we've got is, like, these big viral moments, but also your standard, like, business as usual, great content that people want to consume.

50:04So it's a bit of both. And if you ask an organization just to look at the mega hits, then yes, you may see more of that kind of, like, side as well. But the content strategy we talk to partners about is hitting all the different notes. A lot of people we've talked about, the big organizations, the NFL, FIFA, what about for maybe some of the smaller tier two, tier three organizations? Because they're not going to be getting money from broadcast deals. They have to be relying either on their own DTC platforms or driving things via social. How can TikTok work as a platform for some of those? Because ultimately the people that listen to us or people that come to SportsPro New York in less than 24 hours' time, the majority of them aren't necessarily in those big organizations.

50:45They're representing the different federations, NGBs across the globe. How would you say, or even some of those emerging challenger sports, we talk about things like Ballers League and stuff like that, that do have to be social first. How does the game plan potentially, not to use a pun of your product, but how does the strategy maybe change for those people that are playing a different game to others? Sure. In many ways, all the benefits of using TikTok dating back to 2024 still exists like it is an incredible destination for reaching large audiences and building fan bases um the the hope is with a lot of these these tools and these products it becomes more and more scaled so that it's available to absolutely everyone um so that's that's one part but for we there are great examples of i think it's um well badminton federation who have like absolutely exploded on tiktok uh again enabling their athletes was one of the main ways and really leaning into TikTok creators.

51:40So it's all out there. Our teams also work with an array of sports publishers as well. So it's definitely there for the taking for all types of sports. When it comes to the social first leagues, they get it better than most. So they're definitely fine when it's the Kings Leagues or Ballers League. I've definitely watched more badminton and table tennis of late. And I think it's possibly because of... I also got a base in Sweden, and one of the best guys in the world is a Swedish guy. So they talk about it a lot. Well, it's interesting you say that. We interviewed or I interviewed. Her name's Stella Tran.

52:12She's on the World Badminton Tour. Yeah. And I think she's still a student, I think, at Stanford or UCLA. And she's basically balancing her career. But one thing, she did reference the stuff that she's doing on TikTok. So the fact that you mentioned badminton aligns with an interview I'd done back maybe a few months. So if you're listening, you can go back in the archives and find that. But she did reference. So I'm not surprised that badminton is one of those that is taking off. Yeah, for sure. and it's like, you know, fifth division football clubs in England are doing incredibly well. Like, it is very much a platform available to anyone to succeed on.

52:44And then just as we're wrapping things up, in terms of is there anything you've learned in your time since you've been at TikTok or has there been a particular activation or something where there was a learning that came out of it, whether, you know, how users consumed it or, you know, is there something that surprised you, you know, coming in from when you originally came in to just how you've seen something perform? Honestly, recently the performance on live is quite surprising because we're not necessarily out in market being like everyone must go live. It's not like a critical part of what we've been talking about the last year, but it's always been something we wanted to experiment and find showcases, find good examples.

53:24And it's very much clear that that's what we've been doing versus it's the strategy. But it makes me think that more and more, our partners can use TikTok Live to grow those audiences, but also find new ways of interacting with us. So just very recently, I'm actually quite surprised at some of those results. And then I think overall, what we've been able to build in just a year, all of these different products put together, I haven't mentioned things like post campaigns. There's a whole load of different areas where they didn't exist in 2024. for. So it's an amazing company when it comes to rapid development and very much entrepreneurial side.

54:06So all of this comes together. Like what we'll do this year, I'm quite excited as well. Well, I guess we'll have to, maybe that gives us a reason to come back in 12 months time, A, to use this incredible studio, but also for you to update us on what might be rolling out. I won't put you on the spot to make you give us all the plans now, but because I think it is interesting because retrospectively, the first ever episode of Streamtime Sports, Nick, you did with Rob Shaw at the time was at Facebook. And what was really interesting, that was nearly coming up on four plus five years now, is at the time Facebook was trying to acquire live sports, right?

54:39And back when it was Twitter before X, they were also looking to acquire live sports rights. Well, they had and they realized that was not the right playbook by then. Yeah, very true. So it's just interesting that in that short period of time, we've sort of seen how social media has changed its different role where it plays within live sports. And like I said, going back to the original episode, they had live sports rights where they've now pretty much kind of agreed probably not the model for us. So it will be really interesting just to sort of see like in four or five years, does that swing back around?

55:06Is it something completely different? I think it just goes to show like even on this show, our show, how much that's all changed over the course of the years and where TikTok could be in a relatively short period of time based on what you guys are trying to innovate. and it the key distinction is that we're just there to encourage and support broadcasters go live with their content versus like out to acquire global rights or um don't start basically chasing rollo now to buy media rights it's an enablement thing rather than a platform purchasing thank you for doing that yes that's very kind um but it's about finding like just a tipping point that it makes sense for people to use it as a tool and and we may be getting towards that as well which is just a fascinating place to be in having watched where the industry has gone through the last 10-15 years as well so yeah no I think it's again we're we're more a complementary side it's the partial element that I'm interested in the singular player the first 15 minutes whatever it might be so that we can have this in off another feather in our hat of being a fan building marketing kind of part of it final question i've got to wrap things up we've talked a lot about data um you're giving a lot of data to partners what are the main metrics that you are pointing to as measures of success on the platform oh caveat why typically when i see investor decks and social media performance decks and so forth there's normally one thing it's follower base is normally the number or just massive views is kind of the two main things they always point to, which is the big shiny numbers.

56:45My thesis here or theory is that because of this, like giving over rights to fan creators, getting the stitching of content, et cetera, that you're not following, like priority isn't really follower bases anymore. It is visibility, it's viewership, and then the ability to track that more widely. Is that kind of the crux of it? Yeah, for sure. So if you just walked in and showed La Liga, the amount of video views they have on their own content, they know that information. That is, or in their own analytics, it's probably in a third party analytics, you can check. What's more interesting is to show La Liga the size of the video views and watch time of every piece of content that's hashtag La Liga.

57:25And then to say to them, okay, we'll take that entire funnel and put a link that goes through to your destination on it. So it's showing them that sport, their total interest on TikTok, or even where possible, showing them the total number of creations. So how many people are posting content which is illegal related? And then obviously followers are great, but followers don't necessarily like translate in the same way as how long people are watching content. Are they finishing the videos as well? These kind of metrics are the ones we want our partners to focus on. Awesome. Well, Raul, I appreciate you, A, for hosting us once again, but also sharing, you know, the stage with us and all your insights.

58:01And like I said, it sounds like we're going to have to make this a thing. So hopefully this isn't the last time that we do this year with you. Yeah. He said that a lot of times. I'm just driving at home. I'm looking at the team in the background to get the scheduling. Well, I know I'll see you at other things as well. So that's fine. I appreciate it, brother. Thanks for joining us. Right. Awesome. Thank you.