Butterflies: Caterpillars with Wings!

7:33Chuck Bryant:Yeah, he could get one cc of blood through those arteries. They were so clogged. He was on Ambien.

7:40Josh Clark:Does it say when the name morphed for my wife into Flutterfly?

7:47Chuck Bryant:They actually used to think, or it's a pretty strange idea, that they're called butterflies rather than flutterbys because that makes more sense. So Emily's kind of taking it in a much smarter direction. That's interesting. She probably just doesn't know the fact that they're actually witches in disguise who are out to steal butter and milk.

8:06Josh Clark:Yeah, she still calls them flutterflies just for fun.

8:09Chuck Bryant:That's pretty cute. Does she call spaghetti paschetti?

8:11Josh Clark:No, no, just flutterflies. can we talk about their bodies now?

8:17Chuck Bryant:Yes, yes, thank you for indulging me. I feel so indulged.

8:20Josh Clark:Sure. So, like we mentioned, the head, the thorax, and the abdomen of the butterfly will look a lot like a caterpillar in some ways if you hold them up next to each other. And that's about it. For one, a butterfly can see a lot better than a caterpillar can. I get the idea that it still doesn't have, like, you know, like great vision. But caterpillars, remember, were essentially blind. Butterflies at least have these compound eyes, and they can detect color. And I think we said the caterpillar could only see in black and white. They can detect movement as well. Right. But when it comes to, like, the star of the show, as far as butterfly parts go, it's those antennae.

9:06Chuck Bryant:Well, hold on. Before we move on, I've got one about the eyes, too. Okay. You know, the monarch butterfly, like basically the quintessential butterfly? Sure. They have 12 ,000 eyes, both compound and simple, and they go basically all the way around their head.

9:21Josh Clark:That's a lot of eyes.

9:22Chuck Bryant:They can see into your soul.

9:25Josh Clark:And that's why they, maybe that's why they're so great at migrating every year in such large numbers.

9:31Chuck Bryant:Possibly. I think we talked about in our animal migration episode, we talked about monarch butterfly migration. I think we said one of the reasons why they're able to make it from eastern Canada all the way down to northwest Mexico is because they navigate using UV. They see in the UV.

9:49Josh Clark:Yeah, it's that sun. And that kind of brings me back around to antennae.

9:54Chuck Bryant:Oh, good.

9:54Josh Clark:These things are amazing. They get their sense of direction from the position of the sun. So they are literally navigating by the position of the sun. The antennae also act as light receptors.

10:08Chuck Bryant:Nice.

10:09Josh Clark:Obviously, to track the sun. They're highly attuned to odors. Those antennae are great smellers. They sense pheromones during times of mating. And they can even sense, these antennae, the beat of wings of butterflies of the same species during mating season.

10:27Chuck Bryant:Wow, that's amazing. Just the antennae?

10:29Josh Clark:Just the antennae.

10:30Chuck Bryant:Wow. How about the labial palps?

10:34Josh Clark:Well, yeah, those are, if you look at a close-up of a butterfly, and they can take kind of different positions, but usually I've seen them, they look like kind of little hairy tusks. Coming out? Coming out of what, Chuck? Coming out of their head. Well, near their mouth parts.

10:50Chuck Bryant:Yep. Ding, ding. Okay. It's now officially a Tracy Wilson article.

10:54Josh Clark:That's right.

10:55Chuck Bryant:So they apparently are like, this is food, this isn't food, this is food. But they don't eat with the labial palps. It's just a way of sensing food. What they eat with is their proboscis. And that's the long kind of tongue-like appendage that they suck nectar with.

11:14Josh Clark:That's right. I got one more thing on the labial palps, though.

11:17Chuck Bryant:Oh, okay.

11:20Josh Clark:They've kind of surmised that it detects food, that the function is fairly unknown. But I think they've learned, I'm not sure how recently, that they can, those labial palps detect CO2 in the air.

11:31Chuck Bryant:Oh, neat. As well.

11:33Josh Clark:And they think that might be the main function.

11:35Chuck Bryant:Oh, that's really cool.

11:36Josh Clark:Who knows?

11:37Chuck Bryant:So instead of seeing red or green, they have the labial palps that detect CO2. That was a reference to a reality episode.

11:46Josh Clark:Yeah, yeah. So what part did you move to?

11:49Chuck Bryant:I moved on to their proboscis.

11:52Josh Clark:Oh, everyone loves a good proboscis. And the butterfly proboscis is interesting because when the butterfly comes out, and we'll talk about this more in a second, it's almost like it should have a label that says some assembly required.

12:07Chuck Bryant:Yeah, for it.

12:08Josh Clark:Because they got to do some stuff before they can really do their butterfly thing. And one of those things is literally almost like screwing together their proboscis.

12:17Chuck Bryant:Mm-hmm. Yeah, they have two parts of their proboscis that they have to connect in order to start eating. So that's one of the first things that they do when they eat clothes from their chrysalis.

12:28Josh Clark:Eclose, that's a great name.

12:30Chuck Bryant:No, it sounds like Apple has trademarked it or something.

12:34Josh Clark:And we'll talk more about the proboscis as we go, but we do need to mention their legs. If you remember, the caterpillars have six real legs and then a bunch of pro legs. The butterfly says, I don't need those pro legs anymore because I'm flying, basically. But I've still got those six legs. I've got a set of forelegs, some middle legs, and some hind legs. And these things are pretty, they're more than just legs as well, because they will land on something, and they're looking for dissolving sugars, basically, to eat. And they're looking for that with their legs.

13:09Chuck Bryant:Yeah. And also, you'll probably see fairly commonly that there are some butterfly species that only have two pairs of legs, and that's not true. They actually have six, but one pair is basically shriveled almost to nothingness.

13:23Josh Clark:Oh. And by the way, I should clear up. When I say their legs are looking for dissolving sugars, they're not doing it by feel. Like, they are taste organs in their feet.

13:33Chuck Bryant:Yeah, they can taste through all sorts of different organs. It's pretty cool. Apparently, when they step in, like, some dissolving sugar, their proboscis uncoils involuntarily, like, boi-yo-yoin. and it just starts sipping nectar immediately. Oh, man. So you better hope that your legs are finely attuned to sugar and you don't accidentally suck up some really gross stuff. Yeah. You know, like, oh, it was pus. Right. Oh, my God. Oh, the worst word.

14:04Josh Clark:It's the worst. It's pretty bad. And it's one of the worst things, too.

14:08Chuck Bryant:It's not as bad as a hygienic utensil, though.

14:10Josh Clark:Like, what are the odds that one of the grossest things has the grossest word?

14:14Chuck Bryant:I don't know. I wonder if that was intentional.

14:18Josh Clark:Yeah. Like, what is that? Ugh, pus. Right. Does that sound gross enough? Sure. Let's go with it.

14:24Chuck Bryant:Can we please stop talking about pus?

14:26Josh Clark:Sure, Webster. The wings we're going to talk about a lot. We did a whole episode on the iridescence of butterfly wings, so we're not going to really get into it here. But if you want to learn about iridescence, it's very complex and complicated and deserved its own episode many years ago.

14:44Chuck Bryant:Yeah, but the upshot is the structure of the scales. They're transparent, multilayered, and they reflect and amplify light multiple times. That was a really cool episode, if I remember correctly.

14:54Josh Clark:It was, and it was a tough one, if I remember, to, like, absorb.

14:59Chuck Bryant:Yes, but we did such a great job of it. I would like to say we probably just knocked it out of the park, really.

15:04Josh Clark:I think so, too. But the butterfly wings are made of this transparent. It's called chitin. If you've heard of chitin, you're probably just alive on the earth because it is one of the most abundant polysaccharides in nature. It's, I think, the second most abundant. It's all over the place. Their wings are made of that chitin, and they have those sort of vein-like structures that you can, if you look at their wings closely. Don't touch them, though, please. No. We talked about that in that episode. But they have those four wings that are obviously toward the front, and they are basically triangular, and then the hind wings toward the butt, and they kind of look like little seashells.

15:46Chuck Bryant:Yes. And they're, like you said, don't touch them. They're very, very delicate. And those veins are species-specific, so that's one of the ways that they use to recognize one another when they're mating as well.

15:59Josh Clark:Yeah, and I think butterflies cannot repair their wings. Isn't that correct?

16:03Chuck Bryant:Yes, they have no means of doing that. They have no car shield for wings.

16:07Josh Clark:But I don't think it kills them, but if a butterfly can't fly, that's probably ultimately a death sentence, right?

16:13Chuck Bryant:That's my guess. It would make them easy prey at the very least.

16:16Josh Clark:Yeah, I think that's kind of the deal when they say a butterfly will die if you touch their wings. Yes. It will die quicker.

16:23Chuck Bryant:There's something that a butterfly that's recently eclosed and a baby that's just been born have in common. Do you know what it is?

16:34Josh Clark:Maybe, but go ahead.

16:36Chuck Bryant:They both poop out in a meconium.

16:39Josh Clark:Oh, sure. A human baby.

16:42Chuck Bryant:Yeah. Yeah.

16:44Josh Clark:Yeah, meconium is that first poop that they take. And in this case, the butterfly is pooping what it last ate as a caterpillar.

16:53Chuck Bryant:That's so cool.

16:54Josh Clark:It is really cool.

16:55Chuck Bryant:It's usually red, bright red, almost looks like blood. But the butterfly poops that out. That's one of the first things it does. It has to clean off all of its organs, its feet, to make sure it's sugar-finding, not pus-finding. Clean off its antennas, put its proboscis together again. Let its wings dry out. That's cool. I saw, and I don't think we mentioned in the caterpillar episode, that in its last instar, it has wings already. They're just folded up under its skin. But they develop even further in the chrysalis. But when they come out, they're soaking wet because the butterfly was goo not too long ago.

17:34Chuck Bryant:Yeah. And they have to spread them out and let them dry in the sun before they can fly. So they're doing all of this, like, self-care, basically a morning at the spa right after they're born.

17:45Josh Clark:Yeah, but they can't just, like, flop their wings open immediately. They actually have to pump them up almost like an air pump inflating a raft or something. Or some high tops. Yeah. Oh, man. Remember those? That's so funny. What a scam. That was a scam, right?

18:04Chuck Bryant:I'm quite sure you could break your ankle in that just as easily as any other shoe, sure.

18:08Josh Clark:Yeah, it may give you like a little tighter fit or something. I don't know about that. And for people that are younger listeners, if you don't know who Milli Vanilli was or pump up basketball shoes, there were, I think, Reebok, right? Pretty sure it was Reebok. Had basketball shoes that on the tongue had a little basketball that was a little pump. And you would put on your shoes, tie them up, and then press that pump a bunch of times. And it would fill some cavities with air, I guess, and make your shoes tighter.

18:37Chuck Bryant:Yeah, especially around your ankle. It was meant to give you extra ankle support so you could donk easier, even though you've never donked in your life.

18:43Josh Clark:That's right. But they had Spud Webb repping them, so, you know.

18:47Chuck Bryant:Oh, yeah? Yeah, I think he was one of their pitch guys for a little while. Okay. Cool.

18:54Josh Clark:But anyway, the butterfly pumps those.

18:56Chuck Bryant:Wait, wait, should we explain who Bud Webb was?

18:58Josh Clark:He was a diminutive NBA player. Yeah, for the Hawks. And I stood in line to get his autograph one time. Yeah.

19:03Chuck Bryant:Nice.

19:05Josh Clark:They pump their wings out, but not with air. There's a fluid that they pump through those tube-like veins we were talking about and just sort of inflate them out. And like you said, they just get all cleaned up and ready to fly.

19:18Chuck Bryant:Yes. And then once they're all ready, they start flying and they realize very quickly, oh, it's not a very good day to fly. And I say we take a break and come back and explain just what in the holy heck I'm talking about.

19:43Josh Clark:What if mind control is real?

19:45Chuck Bryant:If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have?

19:49Josh Clark:Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused.

20:03Chuck Bryant:Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. NLP, aka Neuro Linguistic Programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology.

20:15Josh Clark:Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain. It's about engineering consciousness. Mind Games is the story of NLP. It's crazy cast of disciples and the fake doctor who invented it at a New Age commune and sold it to guys in suits. He stood trial for murder and got acquitted. The biggest mind game of all? NLP might actually work. This is wild. Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

20:46Chuck Bryant:On the Adventures of Curiosity Cove podcast, what if the right fit isn't what everyone expects? In the case of the right fit, Ella explores movement, confidence, and belonging, and learns that not all strength looks the same. Tennis is powerful, fast, focused, and kind of fun. Strong swing, Ella! This Women's History Month story introduces kids to women who change sports by trusting themselves and moving differently.

21:14Josh Clark:A thoughtful episode about identity, courage, and helping kids discover where they truly belong. So it's okay if I'm not quite sure what my thing is yet. It's absolutely okay.

21:26Chuck Bryant:When and if you do find a sport you love, you may be the next Gertrude, Tony, or Venus. Listen to Adventures of Curiosity Cove every Monday from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

21:46Josh Clark:When you listen to podcasts about AI and tech and the future of humanity, the hosts always act like they know what they're talking about and they are experts at everything. Here at the Nick, Dick, and Pohl show, we're not afraid to make mistakes. What Coogler did that I think was so unique Who's he? He's the writer-director

22:04Chuck Bryant:Who do you think he is? I don't know You mean, like, the president? You think Canada has a president You think China has a president Les La Cruzette God, I love that thing I use it all the time I wrap it in a blanket and sing to it at night

22:22Josh Clark:It's like the old Polish saying Not my monkeys, not my circus Yep It was a good one I like that saying.

22:28Chuck Bryant:It is an actual Polish saying. It is an actual Polish saying. Better version of play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Yes. Which, by the way, wasn't Taylor Swift who said that for the first time. I actually, I thought it was. I got that wrong.

22:40Josh Clark:Listen to the Nick, Dick, and Paul show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

22:58All right.

22:58Josh Clark:What in the holy heck are you talking about?

23:00Chuck Bryant:Oh, well, let me explain, Chuck. It turns out that butterflies, while being pretty hardy individuals, at least as far as insects are concerned on that level, they're also very delicate, like we talked about with their wings. And even beyond their wings, getting like a raindrop driving through it that can happen, or say like strong wind tattering it, that's a big problem for a butterfly. Just the temperature, the ambient temperature has a tremendous effect on them, not just because they're ectotherms, meaning they're like a lizard. They rely on the ambient temperature to warm themselves or cool themselves off.

23:39Chuck Bryant:Their muscles just simply will not function when it drops below a certain temperature.

23:45Josh Clark:Yeah, I think Tracy points out they work best when their internal temperature is about 82 Fahrenheit, 28 Celsius. and you know they use these wings for flying which is great but you might think like oh it's no big deal if it's cold they just kind of hunker down but they also use these wings to do all kinds of like cool things like namely to scare away predators they can do all sorts of like they can make eyes where it looks like a scary face kind of like their little caterpillar former selves can look like snakes they can flash these bright colors that a lot of times say getaway predator. And if they can't move their wings, it's not just that they can't fly, but they can't defend themselves or disguise themselves.

24:29Josh Clark:So it means that when it's cold outside or when it's too windy or rainy or something, then they're way more vulnerable to prey.

24:36Chuck Bryant:For sure.

24:37Josh Clark:Or as prey.

24:39Chuck Bryant:Right. But even prey could probably get them. That's how vulnerable they are. For sure. So you'll often see like butterflies just kind of basking in the sun. And I've always wondered what they're doing. Like they just seem like they don't know what to do next. That's how it's always struck me for some reason. They're thinking of their next move. But in reality, they're just sitting there getting warmed up by the sun so they can fly to another spot. And if you stop and think about it, the next time you see a butterfly basking in the sun, I'll bet it's below 80 degrees out and the butterfly is having to warm itself so it can fly onto the next flower to eat or rest or whatever.

25:19Josh Clark:Yeah, that's a good point. They do take shelter at night when it gets chilly. That's why you don't see butterflies flying around at night mainly. And like you said, they're, what are daytime dwellers called?

25:32Chuck Bryant:Diurnal.

25:33Josh Clark:Diurnal. Diurnal. Yeah, diurnal. Is that how you remember it?

25:40Chuck Bryant:Now it is.

25:41Josh Clark:Okay. You do remember it. That's how I need to remember it.

25:45Chuck Bryant:Right.

25:46Josh Clark:But yeah, they bask those wings. They'll sit around on rocks. They shelter at night. Sometimes they will actually do like a kind of like human shiver to warm up. They can kind of shake their butterfly wings to get their muscles warmed up to fly. They just can't go out cold. They got to do a little warm up first.

26:04Chuck Bryant:It's like that knee hike thing where you lift your knees really high, like in place a bunch of times.

26:11Josh Clark:Yeah, like soccer players do.

26:14Chuck Bryant:Yeah.

26:14Josh Clark:Like that Ted Lasso guy.

26:16Chuck Bryant:Right. And there's a name for that, but don't bother emailing us with it. We can figure it out ourselves.

26:22Josh Clark:They also can use those wings as little reflectors. Like, you know how in the 1950s and 60s people would sit out in the sun with those reflectors under their neck to reflect sun back on their faces? They can use their wings to do that to their body and warm it up.

26:37Chuck Bryant:Right, which is pretty cool. They can also keep the sun from warming them up when it's too hot out. They'll fold their wings together and just present, like, the edge, the outer edge of their wings to the sun. So there's much less surface area.

26:54Josh Clark:Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And they, like you said, when you see them sitting, they're probably not sitting for long. They're probably sitting just so they can get it going to fly again very shortly.

27:08Chuck Bryant:Exactly. So even though they're sitting there warming themselves up to move from flower to flower, even, and that's typically what you see, there's a lot of species. I see at least 200 that migrate over very long distances. And monarchs are the ones that they're like the money butterfly that everybody knows about. But one of the reasons why is because they migrate so far. Again, they migrate from eastern Canada to northwest Mexico. It takes eight months, and not a single butterfly that starts that journey is alive at the end. So it's like you look at the butterfly. By the way, the butterfly flock or a group of butterflies is called the kaleidoscope.

27:50Josh Clark:I love that.

27:51Chuck Bryant:Also, that's the official one. They're also called flutter, shimmer, and rainbow of butterflies.

27:57Josh Clark:Okay, a flutter of butterflies.

27:59Chuck Bryant:Yep. But you look at the kaleidoscope of butterflies. It's like a single organism. I mean, each individual butterfly that lives and dies and reproduces, not necessarily in that order, as kind of like cells that function and make up the larger whole. But it's really a bunch of individual butterflies flying together but migrating as a whole down from eastern Canada to northwest Mexico. Yeah.

28:23Josh Clark:And I guess since we're there, there was a big deforestation, illegal deforestation logging operation in Mexico at the Butterfly Biosphere Reserve in 2015. And they got like, I can't remember, like 30 or 40 acres of land just cut down before anyone knew what was going on. And since then, and we can't get into it here because it's really complex, but they have this very involved plan that they've been enacting since then of reforestation, including something called assisted migration that I don't fully understand yet, but I'm going to look into it more.

29:01Chuck Bryant:They just drive slowly by some butterflies and swipe them into the car and drive them halfway. way.

29:06Josh Clark:Well, things are better now, but there were a billion butterflies in that migration in 1996. And in, I think, 2016, that was down to 35 million from a billion. And I think it's since gone up due to these efforts. But that's good. Yeah. Then, you know, butterflies, if you take down where they're trying to get to, then they're going to die.

29:28Chuck Bryant:Yeah. And that's that that Biosphere Reserve is a UNESCO World Heritage site, and you can go visit it. But apparently when the number of butterflies that show up are in the billions, the branches that they're sitting on bend under the weight of butterflies. That's how many butterflies there are sometimes. But yes, it's very problematic that there's fewer and fewer. I'm glad to hear that it's kind of bounced back a little bit, but they're still under, I don't know if they're endangered or just critical right now, but there's something to keep an eye on, as we'll see, because they're an indicator species.

30:08Josh Clark:They are. And they're also pollinators. They're not, you know, the best pollinators, but they're pretty good. They're not like bees. I mean, bees were made to pollinate.

30:19Chuck Bryant:They wear t-shirts that say that.

30:21Josh Clark:They do. They wear bee shirts. But some butterflies don't spread pollen at all. They just love that nectar. But generally, butterflies are looked at as polliners. And they have that proboscis, like you said, that's just made for diving deep into those flowers and getting all that sweet stuff. But butterflies have lots of dietary needs. They can't just get by on that sweet, sweet sugar. They need minerals and stuff. And they get this in a variety of interesting ways, right?

30:52Chuck Bryant:Yeah, one is puddles. They'll just descend on a puddle that's bare dirt. I don't think asphalt would work, so it's kind of gross to think about. But the minerals from the dirt in the soil leach into the puddle, and the butterflies suck up those minerals through the puddle. And apparently, if there's not enough minerals for their liking, they'll actually flutter off real quick and then come back to the puddle. And just that little butterfly movement is enough disturbance of the water to bring some extra minerals to the surface of the puddle for them to drink and to create a hurricane in Belize.

31:31Josh Clark:Right. If there's no water, it's pretty gross. If it gets pretty bad, they will resort to puking onto the soil and then drinking that mineral puke. I took it more as spit. Hey, one man's spits, another man's spits. That's right.

31:51Chuck Bryant:But yeah, they need the minerals, the nutrients, and it's just not enough for the nectar.

31:55Josh Clark:Yeah, exactly. They've done some studies, though, because they'll eat fruit. They'll eat rotten fruit on the ground, or they will get on a piece of fruit. They will stomp on it with their little feet to try and tenderize it a little bit and then jab it with that proboscis and drink it up. And they've done studies that have found that the fruit eaters live longer and are better at reproducing in studies because they, I think it was the monarchs even, they fed them either mashed banana or sugar. And the ones that ate the mashed banana laid almost two times as many eggs. And those eggs were bigger and like more robust and vital as well.

32:40Chuck Bryant:Yeah, I also read that they tend to be easier going in social situations and are more well-liked by their peers.

32:47Josh Clark:The fruit eaters?

32:48Chuck Bryant:Yeah. Oh, wow. So there's a couple other places that they can get nutrients and minerals, dung and urine. Butterflies are not above that, especially if they need it really badly. But when they're getting it from a puddle, it's called puddling. There's just so many great words around butterflies. And there's a specific word for butterflies pollinating plants. It's called psychophily, like psychophily, but with one L. Specifically, butterflies pollinating plants is psychophily.

33:21Josh Clark:I love that.

33:22Chuck Bryant:I thought you would. I found that, and I was like, Chuck's going to love this.

33:26Josh Clark:The sexy stuff you mentioned, you know, butterflies love to try and reproduce, and they reproduce like a lot of animals. They join themselves. They join end-to-end at the abdomen. I think the male has a, like, he clasps down on the female to make sure they stay together. And there is sperm from the male that is eventually going to fertilize the eggs of a female, but not like you would think. It's pretty remarkable because what they do is they, well, first of all, they have to recognize each other. Like I said, using those antennae, they recognize themselves as the same species or whatever. and through their pheromones as well, which is also the antennae.

34:11Josh Clark:And then the male delivers a spermatophore. So it's like, hey, I don't just have sperm for you. I've packaged it up in a little package for you, and it's got all these other minerals and nutrients that you love that will help you in this fertilization process. And they will take extra time to get an extra good spermatophore package ready to be an extra attractive mate.

34:36Chuck Bryant:The good ones will.

34:38Josh Clark:Well, sure.

34:41Chuck Bryant:So, I guess the female butterflies, when they fertilize their eggs, they use the last sperm that was inserted to them, the last spermatophore package. Yeah. So there are some species where the male will basically close up shop after he's inserted a spermatophore with kind of like a sticky substance that prevents more sperm from going in. So his sperm is the most recent sperm.

35:10Josh Clark:Yeah, that's not very cool at all. But I guess that guy's also like, you know, what am I doing giving you my spermatophore if you're just going to use the latest spermatophore that you got?

35:19Chuck Bryant:Exactly. I went to a lot of trouble combining the spermatophore.

35:23Josh Clark:Yeah, like look at this stuff. Look at all these minerals. I also saw that some of the males in some species will spray them with an off-putting scent. Huh. So no other butterflies will want them. There are mating dances that they'll do. And they, you know, when the female gets this spermatophore, they put it in their bursa. And then they wait until they're ready to lay their eggs. And they actually lay the eggs first and then use the sperm to fertilize them once they have laid the eggs, which is also, I think, pretty unusual in the insect kingdom, right?

35:58Chuck Bryant:I don't know. For some reason, I had the impression that they were fertilizing each egg as they were coming out, kind of like a Pez dispenser.

36:07Josh Clark:Yeah, yeah, that's what I mean, though. But they're not fertilized in the body.

36:12Chuck Bryant:I see what you're saying. They're fertilized externally.

36:15Josh Clark:Yeah, yeah. Sure. That's the word.

36:18Chuck Bryant:One other thing, you talked about terrible smells. I turned up that some pheromones are pleasant smelling to humans. Specifically, let me tell you about the green vein white butterfly.

36:32Josh Clark:Let's hear it.

36:33Chuck Bryant:It puts together lemon oil. For all intents and purposes, it has the same chemical composition as lemon oil, but it's the pheromone it produces to attract a mate. And I got to tell you, lemon oil is a pretty great smell. It would attract me too.

36:45Josh Clark:I love it.

36:46Chuck Bryant:So if you ever smell a great vein white during mating season, then you're going to smell some lemon oil.

36:53Josh Clark:The gestation period is about three days, and they lay anywhere from 10 to 300 eggs in clusters over a two - to four-week period. Oh, wow.

37:04Chuck Bryant:It's that long?

37:05Josh Clark:Yeah, it can't. Yeah, two to four weeks. Wow. And these eggs, you know, they lay that many because it's tough for these eggs to survive into adulthood. They got to be – the temperature's got to be just right. Humidity's got to be just right. They can rot very easily if it's too wet. If it's not wet enough, they're going to dry out. And then, of course, there's all those predators that are just dying to eat those butterfly eggs.

37:29Chuck Bryant:They need to find the Goldilocks zone with the humidity for the eggs.

37:33Josh Clark:That's right, they do.

37:35Chuck Bryant:So they also make sure that they put the eggs on their baby's favorite food, which is a certain kind of plant. Butterflies are very frequently indiscriminate pollinators. They just go from plant to plant. But there are also plenty of species that are very plant specific. And those are the ones where they will not only eat that plant while they're caterpillars, they were probably born on that same plant as well.

37:59Josh Clark:We used to have a butterfly bush in our yard that was, those things get really big and out of control. Yeah. Kind of in a, we have sort of a wild garden anyway. It's not like a, you know, super manicured, like English type garden. It's kind of a crazy fun garden. So it fit in the garden, and we had tons and tons of butterflies, but it went away. And I don't know if it was because I think some people, well, I think it could be an invasive species. And a lot of people say, like, don't plant the butterfly bush. But we had one for a while, but don't now. So Emily may have taken it down for that reason.

38:32Chuck Bryant:So the reason it's considered invasive and harmful to butterflies is it produces tons of nectar, but it has no value in supporting eggs or the life cycle of it other than nectar for adults. And so it's a distraction from native plants that do provide not just nectar, but also shelter and a place to lay their eggs. So it actually disrupts the life cycle of local butterflies, even though it's a butterfly bush and they love it, it's actually bad for them. So I have to go cut down mine after this.

39:05Josh Clark:Even if you have a lot of those natives nearby, like as a whole, it's still bad?

39:09Chuck Bryant:Yes, because it's a distraction. Because it's so chock full of nectar that they go to that one instead and just die off.

39:16Josh Clark:Well, some distractions are okay, right? Like television?

39:19Chuck Bryant:Sure. You can put a TV with an extension cord out in your butterfly garden. That's not going to harm them. If you have a butterfly bush, you have to chop it down. I command you.

39:29Josh Clark:All right. They're really pretty, though, and it's fun to see all the butterflies. But, yeah, I get you.

39:34Chuck Bryant:But wait until you've planted other plants, which we'll talk about, and then you can chop down your butterfly bush. All right.

39:41Josh Clark:Well, let's take a break, our second break, and we'll talk a little bit more about what's going on with the butterfly population and the butterfly gardens right after this.

40:04Josh Clark:What if mind control is real?

40:06Chuck Bryant:If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have?

40:10Josh Clark:Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused.

40:23Chuck Bryant:Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. NLP, aka Neuro Linguistic Programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology.

40:36Josh Clark:Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain. It's about engineering consciousness. Mind Games is the story of NLP. its crazy cast of disciples, and the fake doctor who invented it at a New Age commune and sold it to guys in suits. He stood trial for murder and got acquitted. The biggest mind game of all? NLP might actually work. This is wild. Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

41:06Chuck Bryant:On the Adventures of Curiosity Cove podcast, what if the right fit isn't what everyone expects? In the case of the right fit, Ella explores movement, confidence, and belonging, and learns that not all strength looks the same. Tennis is powerful, fast, focused, and kind of fun. Strong swing, Ella! This Women's History Month story introduces kids to women who change sports by trusting themselves and moving differently.

41:35Josh Clark:A thoughtful episode about identity, courage, and helping kids discover where they truly belong. So it's okay if I'm not quite sure what my thing is yet. It's absolutely okay.

41:47Chuck Bryant:When and if you do find a sport you love, you may be the next Gertrude, Tony or Venus. At Curiosity Cove. Listen to Adventures of Curiosity Cove every Monday from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

42:07Josh Clark:When you listen to podcasts about AI and tech and the future of humanity, the hosts always act like they know what they're talking about and they are experts at everything. Here at the Nick, Dick and Paul Show, we're not afraid to make mistakes. What Coogler did that I think was so unique... Who's he? He's the writer-director.

42:25Chuck Bryant:Who do you think he is? I don't know. You mean, like, the president? You think Canada has a president. You think China has a president. You think China has a president. There's a lot of cruisades. God, I love that thing. I use it all the time. I wrap it in a blanket and sing to it at night.

42:43Josh Clark:It's like the old Polish saying, not my monkeys, not my circus. Yep. It was a good one. I like that saying.

42:49Chuck Bryant:It is an actual Polish saying. It is an actual Polish saying. Better version of play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Yes. Which, by the way, wasn't Taylor Swift who said that for the first time. I actually, I thought it was. I got that wrong.

43:01Josh Clark:Listen to the Nick, Dick, and Paul show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

43:18Josh Clark:Okay, well, we talked already about the monarchs and how they had been hit hard from the illegal logging going on in Mexico in the mid-2010s. Yeah. And in general, butterflies are doing okay, but there are some, you know, pesticides and things like that. I think one of the other big reasons besides the logging for that migration of the monarchs, I think pesticides has killed a lot of milkweed, which I think the monarchs love. So pesticides are a big threat, and it's not like I'm just going to spray this one little part of my garden. Like pesticides in your garden, in one part of your garden generally means it's in most parts of your garden.

44:00Chuck Bryant:Yeah, it travels very easily. But on top of that, butterflies are extremely sensitive to pesticides. So I don't know about herbicides, but definitely pesticides. So if you're going to plant a butterfly garden, you want to use natural pest defenses. But that's a big thing that's killing off butterflies and bees, too.

44:18Josh Clark:Yeah.

44:19Chuck Bryant:And then also, we talked about it in the last episode. A lot of people think of caterpillars as pests. It's like, oh, you ate some of my lettuce. I'm going to kill all of you. That kills butterflies, too. They never make it to be adult butterflies, and you've just disrupted generations of butterflies that could have been. So when you put all that together, humans have not been super good for butterflies. Did you mention urbanization in roads, too?

44:45Josh Clark:No.

44:46Chuck Bryant:Those are a problem. Like anytime we build somewhere, we destroy plants, and those often are butterflies or that's a butterfly habitat. And then the roads that we have, the marginal land alongside of the roads are often like great places for butterfly-centric plants to grow. But that means that the butterflies are very close to cars that are going 70, 80 miles an hour, which is never good for the butterfly when they come in contact with them. So, yeah, like I was saying, humans have been kind of bad for butterflies. But fortunately, we're starting to wake up and see the value in butterflies goes beyond like, let's put that thing on a stamp.

45:24Chuck Bryant:Like there's more value to the butterfly than just its aesthetic beauty. But that makes it plenty valuable in and of itself.

45:31Josh Clark:I wonder if butterflies and other insects would ever, if natural selection would be such that they would learn to fly higher than the height of an average car.

45:43Chuck Bryant:Sure, I could see that. But then they run into semis and they're just like, it's going to take millions more years to get higher than a semi.

45:52Josh Clark:Yeah, that's a good point.

45:53Chuck Bryant:Maybe they'll figure out how to fly under cars very quickly. Oh, okay. That'd be something to see.

46:01Josh Clark:Collecting butterflies is, believe it or not, another thing that has hit the butterfly population. Butterfly, collecting butterflies is a thing. hunting butterflies and putting them behind glass in your office is a thing that some people are really into. And I don't know a lot about that, but I do know that there are certain species that are endangered, and part of the problem is overcollecting.

46:29Chuck Bryant:Yeah, and the more rare a butterfly species gets, the more desirable it is for collectors, and the more collecting harms that population because it's so small. It's an Ouroboros, but the worst kind.

46:43Josh Clark:Yeah, and I imagine we'll hear from some collectors who can tell us that there are responsible ways of doing this. I really don't know enough about it to speak to it, but I'm not going to collect butterflies, that's all I'm going to say.

46:54Chuck Bryant:Yeah, I wonder if it's one of those things like ivory where it's like, okay, this happened, this is done, like these things are out there, and we're not just going to throw them away. That's an even bigger waste. Oh, right. So like antique ivory or antique taxidermied butterflies are legal, but anything new is illegal. I wonder if it's treated like that or what, but I get the impression that butterflies don't have that much legal protection. I think they do on paper, but it's very rarely enforced.

47:26Josh Clark:Yeah. I guess if you find one on the ground or something, you'd have that for your collection. Sure. Not sunning on a rock, but, you know, dead.

47:35Chuck Bryant:Right, sure. It just fell over of old age.

47:38Josh Clark:Uh-huh. Should we talk about butterfly gardens here at the end?

47:42Chuck Bryant:Yeah, because one of the things people are doing are saying, like, hey, butterflies, we got to save these butterflies. If we don't, things are going to go pear-shaped even more. And so people are starting to plant butterfly gardens.

47:54Josh Clark:Yeah, because I think you said they're a big indicator of, like, if butterflies are dying off all around you, That's a big indicator of how your local ecosystem is doing in large part.

48:04Chuck Bryant:They're the canary in the coal mine.

48:05Josh Clark:Yeah, exactly. And butterfly gardens are beautiful, and it doesn't take a lot. You need some plants, and you're going to want plants. You're going to want to find out what kind of butterflies you have around you. That's a big one. You can look with your eyeballs and then cross-reference, or you can just look it up on the Internet. And then you want to find out what kind of plants those butterflies love that are native to your area. Yeah. And plant those.

48:28Chuck Bryant:Chuck, when I was researching this, all I wanted to do was be done with this episode so I can go garden.

48:35Josh Clark:Oh, I love that. Emily's gardening. I'm looking at her right now. Man. She's gardening outside.

48:39Chuck Bryant:Well, pound on your window and tell her I'm jealous of her.

48:43Josh Clark:I put it on my Instagram. I don't know if you saw it, but I saw a huge, well, it's not that big, but a hornet's nest in our backyard yesterday that is the coolest, most beautiful thing. I'm kind of tucked in a magnolia branch about only four feet off the ground. And I'm glad I saw it because I was about to go do some trimming of my boxwoods right behind it in a few days. And I would have bumped right into that thing. So now we're just going to steer clear of it until it is out of season and then hopefully try and preserve it. But hornet's nests are so cool looking. And I just love that we have one back there.

49:22Josh Clark:We've got a crazy backyard full of all kinds of critters.

49:24Chuck Bryant:Does it look like a mummy's head? Sometimes they do.

49:27Josh Clark:It looks like sort of a mummy's head, but if it was an alien mummy because it's sort of like top heavy. And it looks like it has a little mouth at the bottom, you know, their little door. I'll send you the picture. It's cool.

49:39Chuck Bryant:Yeah. Or I can just go on Instagram like everybody else.

49:42Josh Clark:No. You get text privies.

49:44Chuck Bryant:Thanks, man.

49:47Josh Clark:What else about the butterfly garden? You need water, right?

49:49Chuck Bryant:Yeah. Remember, they like to drink minerals from puddles. So if you have a little bit of water dripping that forms a puddle in the soil, that's definitely going to help them. You want rocks for them to sun on.

50:01Josh Clark:Yeah.

50:01Chuck Bryant:A big one, Chuck, is you want to use native plants. I know you and Emily are like big into that. And I feel like people, including myself, are really waking up to just how bad for the local ecosystem like non-native plants are and to use native plants whenever you can. When you're building a butterfly garden, it's crucial. because even plants within the same species can be harmful to butterflies. Yeah. And I have an example, if you'll allow me.

50:31Josh Clark:Sure.

50:31Chuck Bryant:So butterflies in Florida and Georgia, in the southeast in general, I think, are very, very keen on what's called butterfly weed. It's what monarchs love. It's that very tiny, multi-flowered, orange-flowered weed. It's a type of milkweed. Okay? Yeah. That's native. Which they love. Yes. There's another kind of milkweed called tropical milkweed that does just fine in Florida and Georgia and the southeast too, but it's not native. And the problem with putting that in your butterfly garden in the southeast is that it blooms so late into the season that butterflies will keep reproducing and entire parts of the population will freeze to death because they've gone beyond their natural reproductive window.

51:20Chuck Bryant:And then furthermore, when the temperature drops a little bit, they're more susceptible to a specific kind of protozoan parasite called OT or OE. I can't remember that they wouldn't otherwise be if they were just on the native milkweed rather than the tropical milkweed. So, like, that's how much attention you really should be paying to your butterfly garden because you can inadvertently harm them while you're doing something you think is good for them. Like putting a butterfly bush out there. Everybody would think, like, that's great. I'm going to put a butterfly bush out, and I can pretty much call myself Gandhi from here on out.

51:52Chuck Bryant:Gandhi of the butterflies. But it turns out you're harming them. So it's definitely something that you need to take some research for. But it's the kind of research that it's like an invitation to go, like, immerse yourself in the natural world in all of the best ways.

52:07Josh Clark:Yeah. Boy, that butterfly weed is beautiful.

52:09Chuck Bryant:Yes, it is. And it's native to Georgia, so you just plant it all you like.

52:14Josh Clark:You know what? I'm going to go tell Emily, like, oh, there's butterfly milkweed. You're just going to be like, it's right behind you, dummy.

52:19Chuck Bryant:Right. But it's not only a food source. It's like a place where monarchs lay their eggs. So you will have butterflies like living in your garden. I mean, they'll fly to Mexico eventually, but they'll hang out there for a while.

52:31Josh Clark:Yeah. I mean, that's the cool thing about the butterfly garden, too. If you do it right, then you're going to have butterflies in your yard. And not only that, but butterflies are going to like word gets around and it'll become a place for butterflies. It'll become like a haven for butterflies. And they don't generally, I mean, the ones who migrate, migrate. But other than that, you could have butterflies families living their whole life back there in your backyard.

52:57Chuck Bryant:Yeah. And speaking of backyards, I've got a backyard. A lower part of my backyard is kind of wild. I keep it wild. Like I don't mow it very often. And there's lots of weeds and like little clovers and stuff growing. So I've left it there for the birds and the bees and all that and the butterflies. But I'm going full on, man. I'm going to let, oh, yes, it's going to be all butterfly, like up to your hips, butterfly stuff. I cannot wait to go plant it. I'm really looking forward to it. Because it goes right up to the edge of some woods, too. So it's going to be amazing.

53:32Josh Clark:Yeah, there's something, we really love, like, leaving green spaces and making it an invitation for animals. You know, like I got my camp up there in North Georgia and like all of North Georgia is just being torn down for neighborhoods and or. And, you know, if you're a hunter, that's fine. That's your thing. I'm not into it. And we love that we have this acreage where we're just like, tell your dear buddies this to come to our land, set up shop here. No one will be shooting you and spread the word, everybody. We have we have a safe space for all you critters out here.

54:08Chuck Bryant:Yes, except for humans, because it's also a most dangerous game type setup you got going there, huh?

54:14Josh Clark:Well, sure. I suspect. On the weekends.

54:17Chuck Bryant:Right. Let's see. One more thing about butterflies. There's an amazing fact that I think we can end on. How about that?

54:23Josh Clark:Let's do it.

54:25Chuck Bryant:They're frequently cited as inspiring the discovery of the RH blood factor, which is a subtype of blood types. And it actually cured what's known as rhesus hemolytic disease. which is where a baby has a positive RH blood type and is born from a mother with a negative RH blood type, and its immune system starts attacking its blood. Not good. But the discoverer of the RH blood factor, his name is Sir Cyril Clark, and he was big time into butterflies, and he was inspired by the butterfly's ability to mimic other butterflies genetically, that they have these what are called super genes, these big clusters of genes that all produce this mimicry and that were refined by smaller genes over time.

55:11Chuck Bryant:And he was like, I wonder if that has to do with blood types and diseases. And in fact, it was.

55:17Josh Clark:Oh, wow.

55:18Chuck Bryant:Yeah, so butterflies, super useful, super beautiful. Go cut down your butterfly bush today.

55:24Josh Clark:Amazing.

55:25Chuck Bryant:Chuck said amazing, so that means it's time for Listener Mail, everybody.

55:32I'm going to call this our influence on Spotify, perhaps.

55:38Josh Clark:Hey, guys, I was wondering if you were aware of your potential impact on Spotify searches. On the Milli Vanilli episode, Josh mentioned the song Owner of a Lonely Heart by Yes being the best song of the 80s. And in my head, I'm like, I'm not sure what that song is. But I said it out loud, and immediately the chorus popped into my head. So I go over to listen to it later on Spotify. I see a ton of covers for it. And I see Milli Vanilli is also in the search results, which was going to be my next search. So I think you guys may have had enough people searching, Owner of a Lonely Heart and Milli Vanilli close together, so that the algorithm associated those two.

56:16Josh Clark:That's awesome. Because other than the time period, it's not similar music, you know. No, I would say not. Maybe do a test and mention two unrelated songs or something to see what happens. Oh, boy. Should we try it?

56:31Chuck Bryant:Yeah, let's mix Sabbath and you pick the other one.

56:36Josh Clark:Okay, so Black Sabbath, name a song specifically. War Pigs. Okay, War Pigs. Hey, everybody, if you haven't heard War Pigs, you should go search it on Spotify. Give it a listen. It's a great song. And while you're at it, I don't know if you've ever heard Barry Manilow's song.

56:54Chuck Bryant:Oh, Chuck, I was going to suggest Barry Manilow.

56:58Josh Clark:Well, I had a 50-50 chance there. I don't know if you've ever heard the Barry Manilow song, Even Now, but it's a classic Barry Manilow song, and everyone should just go search those two on Spotify.

57:10Chuck Bryant:So War Pigs and Even Now by Black Sabbath and Barry Manilow. Let's see what happens.

57:16Josh Clark:Let's see what happens. That was a great experiment.

57:18Chuck Bryant:Who was that from?

57:19Josh Clark:That was from Corey, and I just want to give Corey his due. Side note, saw you guys for the Andre the Giant live in Chicago episode. I also saw Josh's Into the World live in Chicago when you toured that, your short series. It was so great. And I really enjoyed that. Josh walked by on his way in when we were outside and patted my friend Sam on the shoulder. And he's definitely mentioned that several times since then. Oh, that's awesome. So that's from Corey. And you patted Sam on the shoulder. And I think that meant what Sam.

57:53Chuck Bryant:Yeah, thanks for coming to see me, Sam and Corey. It was a fun show, actually. Let's see. If you want to let us know how this experiment pans out, Corey's experiment is what we're going to call it. Corey's choice. How about that?

58:07Josh Clark:Love it. No, let's call it Corey's song rather than Brian's song.

58:15Chuck Bryant:Oh, okay. Okay? No, Corey can wait. Perfect. Okay. Oh, no, but how about Corey's in charge? Okay, that's a good one. That's perfect. We're going to end on that. If you want to let us know how the Cori's in Charge experiment goes, we'd love to hear from you. You can send us an email to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.

58:39Josh Clark:Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Peace to the planet. Charlamagne the Godhead. And listen, we are back. The Black Effect Podcast Festival is back in Atlanta on April 25th at Pullman Yard. And the full lineup is nuts. We got the Grits and Eggs podcast, Deontay Kyle and Big Ice Cup Cat. We got Club 520 with Jeff Teague and the gang. Don't call me white, girl. Mona will be there. Keep it positive, sweetie, with Crystal Renee. We got Reality with the King with Carlos King.

59:16Josh Clark:And yes, Drink Champ will be in the building. Plus, you know, we're going to have a lot of guests. So you need to join us. And we got the Black Effect Marketplace, the picture podcast, and everything you expect from the Black Effect Podcast Festival. Tickets are on sale right now. Go get yours at blackeffect.com slash podcast festival. Don't play yourself, okay? Pull up.

59:39Josh Clark:What if mind control is real?

59:41Chuck Bryant:If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have?

59:44Josh Clark:Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. Mind Games, a new podcast exploring NLP, a.k.a. neurolinguistic programming. Is it a self-help miracle, a shady hypnosis scam, or both? Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:00:19Chuck Bryant:Then she says, have you seen a photo of my son? And I'm like, who is this person? Welcome to the Boys and Girls podcast. Arranged marriage is basically a reality show, and you're auditioning for your soulmate. And who's judging? Only your entire family? I sacrificed myself to this ancient tradition, hoping to find love the right way. And instead, I found chaos, comedy, and a lot of cringe.

1:00:44Josh Clark:Listen to Boys and Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.