Child Prodigies: Better to Burn Out Than Fade Away

26:36For sure. There's a good example I found of that. John von Neumann, who would go on to become a great mathematician, physicist, pioneer in computer science. He, as a child prodigy, would entertain his parents' friends at their parties by, they'd give him a phone book, and he would read over one of the pages and then hand the phone book back. And they'd ask him questions like what's, you know, they'd pick a name and say, what's their phone number and address? And he'd tell them. And then they'd say, well, recite this whole page. And he would recite it verbatim, just after looking at it for a little while, which is an amazing example of working memory.

27:13But that's also, I mean, he was a phone book prodigy, pure and simple. As you know, I recently had lunch with a friend of the show and pal Kevin Pollack, the actor and comedian. And sadly, you were out of town, so you couldn't go. But Pollack's first, his first act was not doing it, because he's a great impressionist, as we all know, not doing impressions of comedy albums. Like a lot of kids, the first thing they do is like just repeat the bits from comedy records or specials. Right. He would mouth them in perfect synchronicity. Oh, wow. So he would do air comedy and he would do like the throat clears and everything.

27:55And he did it, you know, as like, I don't know how young he was. He said he was like six or seven to where like one of his mom's neighbors or one of his neighbors or one of his mom's friends was like, you're doing this at the, you know, the Scheinbaum's bar mitzvah next week. Like I'm booking you. And he was like for the first six years or so of his life, like he did it at school. Like my act was completely just mouthing these comedy bits. That's pretty awesome. Yeah, it's impressive. He was a Richard Pryor comedy album prodigy. Well, I mean, he made a good point, which was he was like the material killed because the material was great because it was like the best comics.

28:29And he went and then I got it down so good that part killed. And he was like, I couldn't fail, basically. That's pretty great, man. Yeah, fun story. Oh, yeah. So one other thing about working memory, Chuck, before we move on. One of the things that it helps with is learning things like chess or math or things that have steps to them. You're keeping the information you need to complete this step so you can move on to the next. And you're probably also thinking about what the next step is, too, simultaneously. Working memory really comes in handy for that. So it makes sense that they have just amazing working memory levels.

29:07Yeah. And the connection to autism is really interesting, too, because in that paper, you know, from 2012, I mentioned that they looked at cognitive data for several things, one of which was the autism spectrum quotient. And they found it, you know, they found a pretty undeniable connection. They found that subjects who were prodigies had definitely had more autistic relatives than the general population does. and very high scores in the attention to detail part of the autism spectrum quotient. So, you know, attention to detail is something, obviously, if you have a gift for, you might wind up a prodigy.

29:43Yeah, but they didn't score high or beyond the general population in the other parts of the autism spectrum quotient. So they don't have autism. I think that's because there's a separate group where if you have like severe autism or some other cognitive difference, you are a savant. You're not a prodigy. You're a savant, even though the stuff you're doing is prodigious. It's you're considered separate for some reason. I don't know why, but that seems to still be the case. Yeah, that's interesting. Those same two researchers, Ruth Zotz and Ulbach? Urbach. Urbach? Jerry Orbach. Jerry Orbach. They authored a second paper, and this is from 2014, where they studied 18 prodigies this time.

30:35And they were masters, these 18, in either math, music, or art. And some of the patterns they found were pretty interesting. They all had that same great working memory. So that was sort of proved out a little further even. But the music and math prodigies scored a lot higher on working memory than even the art prodigies. And this was super interesting to me. The math prodigies displayed the highest levels of overall intelligence and extraordinary visual spatial skills, whereas the art prodigies had the lowest visual spatial scores. Yeah, which is weird. Yeah, counterintuitive. Yeah. Should we take a break or keep going?

31:12Yeah, let's take a break. Okay, we're going to take a break, everybody. Here we go.

31:30New year, new goals, and in this economy, a better money plan is more necessary than ever. I am Matt. And I'm Joel. We are from the How to Money podcast, and every week we help you to spend smarter, save more, and make sense of what's going on out there. If you want 2026 to be the year you finally feel in control of your money, we're here to give you the tools and advice to help you make it happen. Listen to How to Money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, Kyle. Could you draw up a quick document with the basic business plan? Just one page as a Google Doc and send me the link.

32:04Thanks. Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one page business plan for you. Here's the link. But there was no link. There was no business plan. It's not his fault. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. My name is Evan Ratliff. I decided to create Kyle, my AI co-founder, after hearing a lot of stuff like this from OpenAI CEO Sam Altman. There's this betting pool for the first year that there's a one-person billion-dollar company, which would have been unimaginable without AI, and now it will happen. I got to thinking, could I be that one person? I'd made AI agents before for my award-winning podcast, Shell Game.

32:39This season on Shell Game, I'm trying to build a real company with a real product run by fake people. Oh, hey, Evan. Good to have you join us. I found some really interesting data on adoption rates for AI agents and small to medium businesses. Listen to Shell Game on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Like if we're on the air here and I literally have my contract here and I'm looking at, you know, as soon as I sign this, I'm going to get a seven figure check. I've told them I won't be working here in two weeks. From the underground clubs that shaped global music to the pastors and creators who built the cultural empire, the Atlanta Is podcast uncovers the stories behind one of the most influential cities in the world.

33:20The thing I love about Atlanta is that it's a city of hustlers, man. Each episode explores a different chapter of Atlanta's rise, featuring conversations with Ludacris, Will Packer, Pastor Jamal Bryant, DJ Drama, and more. The full series is available to listen to now. I really just had never experienced anything like what was going on in the city as far as like, you know, seeing so many young, black, affluent creatives in all walks of life. The church had dwindled almost to nothing. And God said, this is your assignment. And that's like how you know, like, OK, are you from Atlanta for real? I ain't got to say too much.

33:54I'm a Grady baby. Shut up. Listen to Atlanta is on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

34:11Okay, Chuck. So we've talked a couple of times about how prodigy experts agree that it does seem to be a combination of nature and nurture. I think perfect storm is a term that people use a lot. So the parents of a prodigy definitely do have a role in their development as a prodigy. And there have been parents of prodigies who have really kind of claimed that they're essentially responsible for their child's prodigy. There was, I think, William James Sittis' dad. Remember, we did a whole episode on that poor guy. Oh, yeah. What's his deal? He was one of the most amazing child prodigies of all time, just beyond gifted, just dusted other prodigies.

34:59It's like made him look like just lumps of unmolded clay done by an artist prodigy with terrible visual spatial skills, essentially. I love it. But he was worth his own episode. It was a good episode. But his dad, Boris, taught him from a very early age, essentially, from basically when he was born. And he essentially claimed responsibility. There's another very famous prodigy whose name was Winifred Sackville Stoner, Jr. And her mom was Winifred Sackville Stoner Sr. And her mom claimed responsibility for her child's prodigy. We'll talk a little bit more about them. But parents do play a huge role, even if it's not quite as far as some of them boast.

35:48Yeah. I mean, you know, if you're going to be a prodigy at golf or tennis or, you know, piano or something like that, it requires, you know, those things aren't cheap. I mean, certainly there are stories of people who, from a family that maybe, you know, didn't have the kind of resources that other families might have that, you know, find a local municipal golf course where they can go and play super cheap. But those are like, those are kind of rich kid sports. Pianos cost a lot of money. So a lot of times with these, if you look at the parents and the family situation, they are very involved parents who have resources to make it happen, not only with equipment, but dedicating the time and hiring a lot of times at very expensive hourly rates like masters in that thing to help teach that kid.

36:32Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, you can boil it down to a handful of factors that parents play a large role in. First, you have to start with the kid has a natural ability, right? You don't teach that. That has to exist already. Yes. Then the kid has to have access to those teachers. And like you said, these aren't Joe Schmo teachers like teaching out of their house on the side for a little extra cash. These are like the best of the best teacher experts in this field. That's who the parents need to have the resources to pay. And those teachers have to come in at just the right moment. I don't think it's necessarily down to the minute, but they have to come pretty early in the kid's development so that the kid doesn't get bored because they've gone as far as they can go or because they don't necessarily understand what would even be next.

37:25Yeah. Or, you know, you might get lucky and have that within your own family. Like, I mean, I think Wolfgang Van Halen. Right. I don't know at what age he achieved his level of talent. But, you know, he had a built-in situation with his father and was the touring bassist and backup singer with Van Halen when he was like 16 years old and can play everything. I mean, he's not just a guitar guy, but he plays on his records with his band Mammoth. He plays it all. He plays the drums. He plays the keyboards. He plays the bass. He plays the guitar. He does all the singing. He's like, you know, he's a prodigy.

38:03And he had a built-in teacher as one of the greatest guitar players of all time. I thought you were joking. I didn't realize that Eddie Van Halen's son is named Wolfgang. I thought you were making a joke about Mozart. Well, no, I mean, that is kind of funny. Well, Mozart's father, he was a music teacher as well. Yeah, and his name was Eddie Van Halen. Ironically, right. So, yeah, if you have, like you said, a built-in family member already that knows what they're doing and can teach you, at least early on, that helps a lot. I think also Picasso, his father was an art instructor. Oh, I didn't know that.

38:42Yeah, Picasso just excelled way beyond his father very, very early on. I think his father also kind of took that a little personally. Seems like the type. Yeah, and there are some exceptions here with everything. It's not like every single prodigy has had the means and the resources and the parents that threw everything at them to try and help them. And one notable exception Julia found was Blaise Pascal, the French math prodigy. He was born in 1623, and at the beginning of his schooling, his dad, very famous mathematician, Etienne Pascal, said, I want my kid to learn more than math. And math is so interesting.

39:23If he gets a hold of these math books, he's going to ignore everything else because math is so incredible. And so he hid all the math books in his house. But young Pascal got an outdated math book somehow that was in English, even though he only spoke French. And he was so smart and such a prodigy, he translated that and reinvented parts of that, of like geometry in that book that weren't in the book. Right. Yeah. He also came up with probability theory later on. Like he he was definitely a math prodigy. And so he overcame an absence of material. There's also some good examples of prodigies who overcame an absence of resources, right?

40:08So they came from very poor families. Stevie Wonder is a very good example of that. Self-taught musician on all sorts of different instruments. And his parents did not have the resources to buy him all these things. There was another guy from the turn of the last century named Srinivasa Ramanujan. And he was very poor in India, came from a very poor family. And he, like Blaise Pascal, got his hands on an outdated math book and just taught himself math and became he ended up studying at Cambridge. Yeah, for sure. I mean, there are definitely those examples. But there are there also on the other side, like plenty of examples of, you know, the nurture thing going in a bad direction.

40:54Yeah. Where the parents have. And I know we, we, uh, Julie didn't cover this, but in our book we covered, do you remember who wrote that chapter, by the way? I think it was yours. I think it was too. It was so long ago. I don't remember. I know what you mean, but I think it might've been mine because I remember very much wanting to include and did include in the book, uh, the story of Todd Marinovich, who was a prodigious quarterback. Um, and another, you know, example is Jennifer Capriati, the tennis prodigy. Like they were kids who were both excelling to the point where they were young teenagers and Sports Illustrated being written about.

41:32And they were pushed by these overbearing fathers in their case. And they both burned out and washed out and ended up, you know, having problems with drugs and problems with the law and stuff like that. So there are some pretty sad cases there where parents take what could potentially be a good thing and just ruin it because they're parents. You know, I was reading today about Venus and Serena Williams and their tennis prodigy status, I guess. But Richard, their father, Richard Williams, he had Venus turn pro at age 14 because the USTA was about to release the Capriati rule, which was like you can't turn pro after a certain age because Jennifer Capriati was such a cautionary tale.

42:21So before the rule could be passed, Richard was like, you're turning pro now. And her debut, she beat number 66 and almost beat number the top seeded player at her first professional tournament. Age 14. Boy, those Williams sisters were fun or still are fun to watch. I didn't see that movie. Did you, King Richard? No, I didn't. Okay, moving on. Yeah, we have nothing to say about it then, apparently. Well, speaking of moving on, we're to the point where we talk about when you're not a prodigy anymore, because you mentioned early on, you know, once you have mastered this thing, that's it. And a lot of times that is it.

43:06Some, you know, they're different stories. Some flame out and go down a bad road. Some go on to have, you know, great careers doing their thing, like you mentioned Mozart, obviously. but some go on to have great careers and it's not like a super famous situation like Mozart, but they do great for themselves. But, you know, it's like being a child movie star. Like once you reach a certain age, that sort of, uh, appeal might be over the adorableness of the kid that can play the piano at 10 years old. And you're just an adult who can play the piano really well. And all of a sudden you're not special anymore and you can, that can lead to a big fall.

43:38Yeah, yeah, it can, because you're essentially, especially at the early on in the 20th century, when the papers would track you down and ask your opinion as a child prodigy, you were a child star, essentially. And that is not something that society has figured out how to handle properly. We don't know what to do with child stars. So instead, we just chew them up and spit them out and say, good luck. We don't need you any longer. that same effect in general can happen to child prodigies. And one really good example is Bobby Fischer. He's the cautionary tale for child prodigies and how bad things can get after you're not a prodigy anymore.

44:21Yeah, for sure. He was the chess prodigy. I've recommended it before, but the great, great film, Searching for Bobby Fischer, is so, so good. Highly recommended. But he was born in Chicago in the 40s, was playing competitive chess by the age of eight and won the U.S. Open at 14 and became the youngest international grandmaster at 15 years old in 1958, 15 years old and six months. But when his career fell, he fell hard and spent a couple of decades roaming around Southern California, destitute. He spent nine months in a Japanese prison and is kind of known, you know, for the last couple of decades of his life as being a pretty hateful anti-Semite.

45:03Yeah. Yeah. He he I don't know if he had a blog or something like that. But after 9-11, he like he publicly celebrated it on his blog. Like he he really just took some seriously weird turns. And yeah, he was he's just a great example of how bad things can get after society is done with you. and you're not useful anymore, not adorable or noteworthy. I think also he clearly had some mental health issues that were probably going to emerge either way. But being a child prodigy, it's such a weird way to grow up that could not have helped at all. Yeah. And there are other cases of kids. And here's a piece of advice.

45:51You can do what you want if you've got a really pretty genius kid. but don't send your kid to college at like 12 years old. No. I just, I don't see that ever leading to good things. I think you should try and normalize a child's childhood as much as possible. Even if they're, you know, unchallenged in school, there are other ways that you can foster that. I think besides saying you're going to Harvard at 11 and you're going to be in the newspapers for that. The case of Elizabeth Benson, she was a 214 plus IQ kid who went to college at 12 and graduated and disappeared. and later on there was one of those like where are they now articles and um and this is no shade at somebody who's a cashier uh it's a fine job and we need cashiers but um the article very much was like this former child prodigy is now just a cashier and that was sort of how it was framed yeah but despite that she kept like batting away that that kind of sentiment and just talking about how happy she was.

46:50She's, she was married. Um, she was very happy with her very normal life, with her very normal husband. And, um, this is a person like a 214, it has a plus next to it, which might as well be an asterisk. She scored perfectly on an IQ test. And the reason that plus is there is because they imagined she could have kept going, but they ran out of questions. Anybody got a question? Yeah. So she, and she even considered herself in the article, She said, you know, based on the stories of some of my peers, like I actually got off pretty well. Like I'm happy with life as an adult. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, she's she's an example of one that went pretty well.

47:28But the best that you could do if you don't eventually turn into an adult who starts contributing greatly to your fields of interest like Mozart, like John von Neumann, like Pablo Picasso. The best you can hope for is to lead a normal life as an adult. Yeah. You know, I keep I keep thinking you're going to say John Bon Jovi every time. I keep wanting to call him Johan, too, and it's not. Oh, interesting. Yeah. You mentioned Winifred Sackville Stoner Jr. early on. She was a language prodigy in the early 20th century, probably most famous for in 1492. Columbus sailed the ocean blue was written by Winifred Sackville Stoner Jr.

48:12but her mom was one of those parents that really really pushed her apparently uh and gained a lot of fame like the mother did she wrote books about it was sort of like uh royal tannenbaums when um ethylene tannenbaum you know talked about her prodigious family of children um and i think we mentioned the tannenbaums in the book of course yeah because i wrote that chapter yeah and that's one of my favorite movies but it's so good uh the mom gained a lot of attention and uh was on the like the lecture circuit and stuff like that. And the daughter was like, you know, take my advice, dear mothers, spare your children from so-called fame, which easily turns to shame and be happy if you have a happy, healthy, contented boy or girl.

48:54Amen to that. Yeah, it's great advice. Great advice. So if you have a child prodigy on your hands, tread carefully, consult experts, Maybe get in touch with Ellen Winner. I'm sure she'd be very happy to speak with you and tell you what not to do. So there you go. That's our annual dose of advice for the parents of child prodigies. Yeah. And I also want to say, I bet it's not the easiest thing, though, to be fair to parents. You know, it's it puts them in a tough position if your kid is obsessed with this one thing and clearly super gifted because you don't want to squash that. So it's a it's a tightrope you're walking there.

49:32So, you know, I get it. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's not a position I would necessarily want to be in, but. Heck no. You've got some really great fodder for your annual Christmas letter that you send out with your Christmas card. Yeah, for sure. You want to make your sister in Boise feel jealous? You talk about your child prodigy and what they're doing. Yeah, I've only known one person in my life that does that, and that is in Emily's family, her Aunt Peg sends out the annual Christmas sort of family catch-up thing. And I've always just been delighted to read it and thought it was super cool and wonder why no one in my lousy family ever cared enough to do anything.

50:09That's a very Sohio thing to do. Oh, is it? Okay. Yeah, for sure. I get it. Before we go on to listener mail, Chuck, I just want to point out a couple of at least one good band and album name, Rage to Master. Oh, very nice. And then I think you could make a pretty good Bon Jovi tribute band with Johan Bon Jovi. Right. Or John Bon Jovi. Yeah, there you go. John Bon Newman. No one would get that except for Stuff You Should Know listeners. Yeah, that's true. What were you going to say? Because I want to hear it. You know what I was going to say. You say it. Bada bing, bada boom, Bon Jovi. And there, Chuck has unlocked listener mail.

50:54This is a correction of sorts, and this is something I didn't know. I'm glad to know. When we did our USAID episode, we were talking about condoms for Gaza. This is from Bernie. He said, I think you guys did a great job. Just wanted to clarify something. The$50 million for condoms was not for Gaza, as in Gaza next to Israel. It was for Gaza province in Mozambique. Elon Musk even corrected this in one of his weird Oval Office press conferences. But as you said, the soundbite had already gone out, and people did not want to hear any retraction to what they now believe. So glad you guys covered this topic.

51:27It's so important globally. As someone who's been in this line of work for my entire adult life, this episode really hit home to me. Keep up the great work. All the best. Bernie F. Chavez. Thanks a lot, Bernie. That was a very gentle correction, and we appreciate those. Rather than, I can't believe you guys screwed this up this badly, which we get once in a while. But for the most part, we hear gentle corrections like Bernie. So hats off to you, and thanks for setting us straight, Bernie. If you want to be like Bernie and send us an email, you can. You can send it off to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.

52:03Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

52:18Hi, Kyle. Could you draw up a quick document with the basic business plan? Just one page as a Google Doc and send me the link. Thanks. Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one page business plan for you. Here's the link. But there was no link. There was no business plan. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. I'm Evan Ratliff here with a story of entrepreneurship in the AI age. Listen as I attempt to build a real startup run by fake people. Check out the second season of my podcast, Shell Game, on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. You know, we always say new year, new me, but real change starts on the inside.

52:54It starts with giving your mind and your spirit the same attention you give your goals. Hey, everybody. It's Michelle Williams, host of Checking In on the Black Effect Podcast Network. And on my podcast, we talk mental health, healing, growth, and everything you need to step into your next season, whole and empowered. New year, real you. Listen to Checking In with Michelle Williams from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if mind control is real? If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have?

53:31Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. Mind Games, a new podcast exploring NLP, a.k.a. neurolinguistic programming. Is it a self-help miracle, a shady hypnosis scam, or both? Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts, starting January 20th. This is an iHeart Podcast.

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