How the Kowloon Walled City Worked

8:58Josh Clark:That's weird.

8:59Chuck Bryant:I also saw Eyes Wide Shut in the theater, and I knew all about it going into it. And so it was my birthday, so I made my whole family go watch it.

9:07Josh Clark:Oh, that's a very fun end of that story.

9:10Chuck Bryant:Yeah. All right.

9:11Josh Clark:So we need to go back in history, though, if we want to talk about how the city came to be. And in order to do that, we need to go back to the first opium war, which was a few years between 1839 and 42, where there was a trade dispute between imperial China and Britain, where in Britain was like, hey, we loves shipping in this opium from India to your addicted citizens. Right. And China was like, no, we like selling them opium ourselves. And so let's go to war over that.

9:40Chuck Bryant:I think actually China was was executing addicts in the street. They were on a huge campaign to eradicate opium addiction from their population. And Britain was like, we're going to keep them addicted because we're making tons of cash off of that.

9:53Josh Clark:Oh, for sure. And this is after China had made a ton of money shipping tea. So there were trade relations already, you know, sort of ensconced.

10:02Chuck Bryant:Yeah, and Britain couldn't get enough of China's tea, but China was like, we don't really want too much of your stuff except our population wants the opium you're smuggling in. So imagine if like the Juarez cartel, like Mexico was like, nope, we don't want you supplying our population with drugs. And the Juarez cartel was like, oh yeah, we're going to war with you and we're going to win. And now we have a treaty saying that we can sell your population drugs and you can't do anything about it. That was essentially the first opium war. And there was even a second opium war, the sequel.

10:34Josh Clark:That's right. But another important thing came out of the first opium war, which was China was forced to cede some land on Hong Kong, which, you know, wasn't a big bustling place at that point. Not much of anything at that point. And in order to sort of, you know, be close to them and sort of keep an eye on what's going over there. The Qing dynasty said, all right, we have a military installation on just across the water from Hong Kong on the Kowloon Peninsula and over the Kowloon Bay. And let's build a big wall there and just like fortify this little military installation. So they built a wall 15 feet thick, 13 feet high.

11:18Josh Clark:It housed about 150 soldiers. And that's where the name Kowloon Walled City came from, from that wall.

11:25Chuck Bryant:Yeah, and today's modern Hong Kong is populated mostly on the Kowloon Peninsula. But at the time, it was the opposite. it. Hong Kong Island was the population. And this Kowloon place was just a little nowheresville, essentially. And so China was like, yeah, we're going to keep this. We're going to keep an eye on the Brits like this. And after, I guess, the second opium war led to the second convention of Peking, where both the first opium war and the second one found China just giving into tons of demands from the Brits, from the Americans, from, I think, the French, who were all like, you have to open your markets to us because we want money from you guys.

12:05Chuck Bryant:And one of the things that came out of it was the very famous 99-year lease that the Brits had on Hong Kong from China, which is why the UK administered Hong Kong for almost 100 years, essentially throughout the 20th century. Yeah.

12:22Josh Clark:So the other thing land-wise that came out of that second opium war was they ceded all of Hong Kong Island, the entire Kowloon Peninsula to the Brits. But keep in mind, they still have this walled city kind of right there, you know, nearish to the coast within that territory. And so there was a little, I guess, a little loophole that they, I don't know if they snuck it in there, but it was, it was in, you know, clearly written, but there was a clause in there basically that said, it's so confusing, I'm not even going to read it. But the result was this weird, small, walled city within this territory that Britain now controls was to stay there and to stay that way.

13:05Chuck Bryant:And to stay Chinese territory. So this little, tiny, six-acre, three-rugby-pitch patch of land would be Chinese sovereign land in this British territory, essentially, is what just got set up from the 1898 treaty. All right. So it's a weird situation, but that's what they're left with. Right after the British takeover there, some Christian missionaries went in.

13:34Josh Clark:It started to get populated. The walled city did. They built a church. Some pig farmers came in. They started squatting. People started squatting because, you know, it was protected by this great, you know, not, I'm sorry, not the great wall, a great wall. that was when we were in Belize on vacation. We went up a Rio Grande. Emily kept saying, you go up the Rio Grande to get to the ocean. And I was like, I don't think it's the Rio Grande. And it was Rio Grande. So the joke for the rest of the trip was we're going up a Rio Grande.

14:03Chuck Bryant:Very cute.

14:04Josh Clark:So there was a Great Wall. So that attracted squatters.

14:08Chuck Bryant:It did. And one of the reasons why is because there was this idea that, okay, this is Chinese territory. So that was already kind of a thought in people's head that there weren't enough people there in this Christian missionary church kind of were almost keeping an eye on things as far as the Brits administering Hong Kong were concerned. So they weren't paying much attention to it. And then World War II came along and Japan occupied big swaths of China, as we talked about in our Unit 731 episode. And one of those swaths was the peninsula, the Kowloon Peninsula. and they tore down those thick, thick granite walls and they used it to build out Kai Tak Airport.

14:51Chuck Bryant:And I think it was already there. It was kind of like an airfield or landing strip and they turned it into like an actual airport. And for many, many years, for decades, Kai Tak Airport was the airport that you flew into when you flew to Hong Kong.

15:03Josh Clark:Yeah, and it's, you know, they need a building material. I love repurposing building materials.

15:08Chuck Bryant:Sure.

15:09Josh Clark:So when I heard that part, I was like, that's great. They don't need that wall there anyway because it looks like it had a wall filter out of it when you looked at it.

15:16Chuck Bryant:Right.

15:17Josh Clark:You know, that was kind of the funny thing.

15:18Chuck Bryant:Yeah.

15:20Josh Clark:Which is ironic because it looks like they populated that city with a wall and then took the wall down.

15:25Chuck Bryant:Yeah. But it was just so, I mean, everyone knew how far out you could build,

15:30Josh Clark:so it just kind of ended up looking that way.

15:32Chuck Bryant:Right. And it was very densely populated.

15:36Josh Clark:That's what I've heard.

15:39Chuck Bryant:So after World War II, a couple of things happened geopolitically that kind of gave rise to the Kowloon walled city. The name stuck, even though it didn't have the walls. But a lot of the people who were refugees during the war made their way down to the Kowloon Peninsula. And they were like, we're not Brits. We're Chinese. So we're going to start squatting here. And the Brits were like, no, you know, you're not squatting here. This is not Chinese. It's ours. It's part of Hong Kong. We basically own Hong Kong right now. So get out. And they evicted all the squatters in 1948. By this time, it had been there were like thousands of them.

16:19Chuck Bryant:So it was a really big deal. And then the squatters just came back next week.

16:24Josh Clark:That's right. They came back the next week. They tried to kick him out again, and there was a riot this time. And I feel like that's a pretty good time for our first break.

16:34Chuck Bryant:Okay, sure.

16:35Josh Clark:All right. We'll be right back.

16:50Josh Clark:In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal.

16:57Chuck Bryant:And T-Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network, according to the experts at Ookla Speedtest. And they used that network to launch Supermobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security, and seamless satellite coverage. That's right.

17:12Josh Clark:With Supermobile, your performance, security, and coverage are supercharged. With a network that adapts in real time, your business stays operating at peak capacity even in times of high demand. With built-in security on the first nationwide 5G advanced network, you keep private data private for you, your team, and your clients. And with seamless coverage from the world's tallest satellite to mobile constellation, your whole team can text and stay updated even when they're off the grid.

17:36Chuck Bryant:That's your business supercharged. Learn more at supermobile.com.

17:41Josh Clark:Seamless coverage with compatible device in most outdoor areas in the U.S. where you can see the sky. Best network based on analysis by Ookla of Speedtest Intelligence Data 2H 2025.

17:55Josh Clark:This episode is brought to you by Spreaker, the platform responsible for a rapidly spreading condition known as podcast brain. Symptoms include buying microphones you don't need, explaining RSS feeds to confused relatives, and saying things like, sorry, I can't talk right now, I'm editing audio. If this sounds familiar, you're probably already a podcaster. The good news is Spreaker makes the whole process simple. You record your show, upload it once, and Spreaker distributes it everywhere people listen. Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and about a dozen apps your cousin swears are the next big thing. Even better, Spreaker helps you monetize your show with ads, meaning your podcast might someday pay for, well, more microphones.

18:36Josh Clark:Start your show today at Spreaker.com. Spreaker, because if you're going to talk to yourself for an hour, you might as well publish it. You know Roald Dahl, the writer who thought up Willy Wonka, Matilda, and the BFG. But did you know he was also a spy? Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been. Our new podcast series, The Secret World of Roald Dahl, is a wild journey through the hidden chapters of his extraordinary, controversial life. His job was literally to seduce the wives of powerful Americans. What? And he was really good at it. You probably won't believe it either.

19:08Chuck Bryant:Okay, I don't think that's true.

19:10Josh Clark:I'm telling you, the guy was a spy. Did you know Dahl got cozy with the Roosevelt's? played poker with Harry Truman, and had a long affair with a congresswoman. And then he took his talents to Hollywood, where he worked alongside Walt Disney and Alfred Hitchcock, before writing a hit James Bond film. How did this secret agent wind up as the most successful children's author ever? And what darkness from his covert past seeped into the stories we read as kids? The true story is stranger than anything he ever wrote. Listen to The Secret World of Roald Dahl on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

19:53Josh Clark:All right, so we're back. Kowloon Walled City, without the wall, is being populated. They're getting kicked out. They keep coming back. There was a Chinese civil war following World War II, so that was one reason that people, you know, between the communists and the Nationalist Party, and that was one reason people were starting, you know, to get the heck out of, you know, in there, I guess.

20:15Chuck Bryant:Yeah.

20:16Josh Clark:And in 1949, you know, the communists won. They declared the People's Republic of China. And so that's when, in the 1950s, things really kicked off with refugees trying to get in there and build up, up, up.

20:28Chuck Bryant:Yeah. And if you were a refugee from China, that meant you were probably a nationalist or at the very least weren't a communist and you just needed to get out of there. But you were, as far as you were concerned, better off living on this tiny patch of Chinese land because you still consider yourself a Chinese national than you were trying to assimilate into this British administered colony that was really Chinese, but the Brits didn't treat it like that. Right. And so these people, these refugees, became like this, almost like freedom fighters. And even the CCP, the Chinese Communist government, they were promoting them.

21:09Chuck Bryant:They would give them supplies sometimes. They would give them food. Sometimes they would send emissaries down that would talk them up and be like, keep fighting the good fight. You know, we've got your back. and essentially anytime the Brits tried to make a move on these residents of Kowloon Walled City, China would step in and be like, that is Chinese territory. So no matter what these people did, the Brits' hands were tied. And the whole reason why was not that China cared about them, but it was a thorn in Great Britain's side. There was this crazy weird area that they did not have control over in the middle of this colony that they had taken from China.

21:47Chuck Bryant:And China took every opportunity to basically twist that thorn in their side. And they used every time that the people of Kowloon were put upon as a chance to step in and flex their whatever authority they did have in the area still. Yeah.

22:02Josh Clark:So as a result of all this, the Brits were like, I don't even care anymore. Like, this is such a pain. In the 50s and 60s, they took a real hands off approach and just kind of let what happened there happen there. And that led to a real influx of people. And then that housing boom, they didn't have, it looks like the only building code they have was you can't build anything over 14 stories tall because it's right there next to the airport. And you don't want to get a wing through your living room one day. So that was the only building code around, certainly the only one honored because it was kind of anything goes inside there.

22:44Josh Clark:And what we ended up with, you know, you mentioned an organic structure. It was ended up called by architects an organic megastructure. Sure. Because these buildings would sink down into their foundation and start to tip. But they would tip over into the next one and that one was tipping toward it. So they ended up calling like lovers buildings because at the top they were all kind of angled in and touching one another. And it's sort of sweet if you think about it.

23:11Chuck Bryant:It is. It is kind of sweet. It was also, at the same time, weirdly, architects in like the 50s and 60s, there was kind of like an avant-garde school of thought about just incredibly dense, like community building. And this is essentially a natural experiment. And it kind of showed that a lot of those theories held up, kind of like the buildings held one another up, that people could just build out what they needed in ways that they needed in spaces that were livable without having to be spread out, without having to have government oversight and all that kind of stuff, too. Those buildings, especially when they were lovers' buildings, pressed up against one another, they became so dense that sunlight would not penetrate the street level in a lot of cases, in most cases, actually.

24:01Chuck Bryant:Like one of the premiums for a flat in the Kowloon-Wald City was one that was outward facing or faced on the internal courtyard because they had sun exposure. Most of the apartments, businesses, dwellings, streets, alleys in Kowloon-Wald City were not exposed to sunlight at any point in the day. Yeah.

24:20Josh Clark:And you sit in this pretty good little YouTube. It was like 15, 20 minutes long about this walled city that breaks it down. And at one point I paused it because they had, I was wondering what these things cost. And I don't know what year this was that they gave us these numbers from, but a 280 square foot flat costs 28 ,000 American dollars. And if you're thinking, all right, that 280, 28 ,000, that kind of makes sense. But that was without sunlight. I think the exterior facing 450 square foot flat was$60 ,000.

24:56Chuck Bryant:Yeah. And I think that was in the 60s or 70s from a paper I saw.

25:00Josh Clark:OK.

25:01Chuck Bryant:But still, one of the things I saw is that a reason that this was attractive to a lot of people, because over time, the place didn't just attract Chinese nationalists and refugees from China. It attracted people who were like, oh, there's really cheap living in here. You could get a flat that was about double the square footage of a like a government flat, like a council flat, public housing, essentially you call it. And it had a kitchen and a bathroom. And those were not guaranteed in the public housing flats that you would maybe even pay the same or more for. So there was like real incentive to move into this place if you didn't care about living cheek to jowl with your neighbors amid trash and abandoned appliances and all sorts of other crazy stuff.

25:52Josh Clark:Yeah. Well, there were some benefits, though. If you lived in the Kowloon Wall City, you didn't pay an electric bill, almost certainly, because you probably just like literally ran the electric yourself from the public utilities. There was all manner of plumbing and wiring routed from the outside coming in into the walled city. So these buildings were wrapped in water pipes and sewage lines and conduit running electricity. If you were a business, you weren't paying any kind of business taxes. Right. So that was a big plus. But you didn't have stuff like trash pickup. and you had to deal with things like heroin dealers and brothels and the triad gang kind of running the show, which, you know, it was mostly bad, but they also did some things to keep the place up.

26:41Chuck Bryant:Yeah, a good example that I saw of what life was like in this that made it like people just got used to this stuff and it was every day was that you would, when you're walking on street level, you would carry an umbrella because of those exposed pipes. Right. It would be leaking on you, but some of those pipes were also sewage pipes, So those would be dripping and leaking, too, because there was no code that was being followed. It was like, I need a sewage outlet coming out of my house here, so I'm just going to run this pipe right here, and that's that. So people just walked around with umbrellas on street level.

27:11Chuck Bryant:Another one that I saw that people just got used to is that a lot of the street level areas were tunnels. And the reason that they were tunnels is because overhead there was a mesh net that had been laid between buildings to catch the trash that people just threw out of their windows. And the reason that they put the mesh netting was because if they didn't, then you wouldn't be able to get into the ground floor of any of the buildings because they would be so covered up with trash. And so these impromptu alleys developed as trash built overhead and the walls of the first floor of these buildings were exposed on either side.

27:49Chuck Bryant:People just got used to this. Like this was just what life was like in Kowloon. And in some ways it wasn't that much worse, if at all, than some of the other poverty stricken areas of Hong Kong at the time.

28:03Josh Clark:Yeah, like if you're wondering, like, why do people even live there or stay there? It's for exactly that reason. You know, it wasn't so different from other poor places that it would have been a big like life improvement to move. And this is their home. It may look kind of kind of crazy from the outside, but people really made a life there. There were hundreds of legit businesses that operated there. There were machine shops. There were a lot of machine shops as far as industry goes and metal fabrication. And then food was a big one. There were lots of food factories. And in that documentary, they said, you know, there was always a feeling that like some of the food that was made there was on the plates and in the bowls of some really high class restaurants surrounding them.

28:51Chuck Bryant:Yeah, the fish balls. So they were unregulated fish balls made in highly unsanitary conditions that just made it out of the Kowloon Walled City. Because that's another thing, too. A lot of people look at this from the outside and think, like, this is completely isolated from the rest of Hong Kong. Absolutely untrue. Those businesses were exporting out of the city into the rest of Hong Kong. people were coming from outside of the city into the city for things like dentists and doctors who are all unlicensed, unregulated, which at first blush, you're just like, oh, my God, why would you go to an unlicensed dentist?

29:27Chuck Bryant:Well, they were already trained and licensed in China. But when they went to Hong Kong, those credentials didn't transfer over. And so rather than pay and become a licensed dentist in Hong Kong under British rule, they just set up in Kowloon Walled city and set up practice without needing a license.

29:47Josh Clark:Yeah. And it was cheaper.

29:49Chuck Bryant:Way cheaper.

29:50Josh Clark:There were schools. If you're like, you know, did they even function as like a regular society? They actually for sure did. There were kindergartens. There were schools. A lot of times it was like the Salvation Army or somebody kind of running these things. If you were like, what about a playground or something like that? Some of these rooftops had, you know, playground equipment where kids could go. Pigeon racing was a big thing. So there were gardens on the roofs, the ones that didn't have trash on them. And they were also keeping these racing pigeons up there. And, you know, there was actually some order.

30:22Josh Clark:It wasn't just like you might picture like constant chaos or something like that. It was more like something you see out of Blade Runner, just a really densely populated city, like actually functioning. They had volunteer fire brigades. They did. You know, they didn't have municipal trash collection. And there was trash all over the place. But they tried, you know, they had volunteer trash collection teams. They had night watch teams. There was a single mail delivery person delivering to the entire city. So they were functioning.

30:51Chuck Bryant:Yeah, there was the officially the Neighborhood Welfare Association. If you bought or sold a flat, the Neighborhood Welfare Association would witness it. So it was very much legal. And then the triads you mentioned, they were running and they were manufacturing and selling heroin out of the city. They were running protection rackets and brothels and child prostitutes and all sorts of terrible stuff. And then simultaneously, they were also providing the law and order that did exist. Like, it was not just chaotic anarchy. It was anarchic in the sense of, like, government regulation and oversight, like, you know, building codes and stuff.

31:31Chuck Bryant:But it's not like you just walked over your neighbor's house and killed them and took their stuff and that was that. But like there was law and order and it was the rule of the triads who essentially kept people from, I guess, descending into chaos if that was even a possibility.

31:49Josh Clark:Well, they didn't want it's kind of the the rule of the street. They didn't want the real authorities coming in there. And if it got so bad, that would eventually happen. It was I mean, I remember when my friend bought his first house in Atlanta in the mid 90s in a pretty rough neighborhood. Like he got his house broken into and got some stuff stolen. And the guy that was the big like drug dealer dude in the neighborhood brought his stuff back. Oh, wow. And like knocked on his door and said, here's your guitar. Here's your amp. Here's your stuff. And he was like, you know, I think the unspoken thing was like he doesn't want the cops in there.

32:26Josh Clark:Sure. So he's trying to keep his guys from doing dumb stuff like that to attract attention. OK.

32:31Chuck Bryant:So, yeah, perfect analogy. technology that's exactly what the triads were doing in there um and so yeah if you if you just you know if you wanted to to do heroin or something i think it was largely smoked you would come from outside kowloon wold city maybe if you liked heroin so much you'd stick around and move there um but at the same time if you were just some elderly person looking for a cheap place to stay that was willing to live in an incredibly dense place, like there was room for you there too. So it was a really, I saw that it was vilified and romanticized and it really shouldn't be either.

33:11Chuck Bryant:Neither of those should be done to it. It was just like every other place, multiple shades of gray. It was just the - Sure. It's just that the extremes on either side are so fascinating, especially when the whole spectrum is viewed, that's what made Kowloon City so remarkable.

33:30Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. I think that's a great time for our second break. And we're going to talk about what happened in Kowloon City right after this.

33:41Josh Clark:In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal.

33:48Chuck Bryant:And T-Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network, according to the experts at Ookla Speedtest. And they use that network to launch Supermobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security, and seamless satellite coverage. That's right.

34:04Josh Clark:With Supermobile, your performance, security, and coverage are supercharged. With a network that adapts in real time, your business stays operating at peak capacity even in times of high demand. With built-in security on the first nationwide 5G advanced network, you keep private data private for you, your team, and your clients. And with seamless coverage from the world's tallest satellite to mobile constellation, your whole team can text and stay updated even when they're off the grid.

34:27Chuck Bryant:That's your business supercharged. Learn more at supermobile.com.

34:32Josh Clark:Seamless coverage with compatible device in most outdoor areas in the U.S. where you can see the sky. Best network based on analysis by Ukla of Speedtest Intelligence, data 2H 2025.

34:46Josh Clark:This episode is brought to you by Spreaker, the platform responsible for a rapidly spreading condition known as podcast brain. Symptoms include buying microphones you don't need, explaining RSS feeds to confused relatives, and saying things like, sorry, I can't talk right now, I'm editing audio. If this sounds familiar, you're probably already a podcaster. The good news is Spreaker makes the whole process simple. You record your show, upload it once, and Spreaker distributes it everywhere people listen. Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and about a dozen apps your cousin swears are the next big thing. Even better, Spreaker helps you monetize your show with ads, meaning your podcast might someday pay for, well, more microphones.

35:27Josh Clark:Start your show today at Spreaker.com. Spreaker, because if you're going to talk to yourself for an hour, you might as well publish it. You know Roald Dahl, the writer who thought up Willy Wonka, Matilda, and the BFG. But did you know he was also a spy? Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been. Our new podcast series, The Secret World of Roald Dahl, is a wild journey through the hidden chapters of his extraordinary, controversial life. His job was literally to seduce the wives of powerful Americans. What? And he was really good at it. You probably won't believe it either.

36:00Chuck Bryant:Okay, I don't think that's true.

36:02Josh Clark:I'm telling you. The guy was a spy. Did you know Dahl got cozy with the Roosevelt's, played poker with Harry Truman, and had a long affair with a congresswoman? And then he took his talents to Hollywood, where he worked alongside Walt Disney and Alfred Hitchcock before writing a hit James Bond film. How did this secret agent wind up as the most successful children's author ever? And what darkness from his covert past seeped into the stories we read as kids? The true story is stranger than anything he ever wrote. Listen to The Secret World of Roald Dahl on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

36:47Chuck Bryant:And it's like it, Joshua and Chuck.

36:56Chuck Bryant:Chuck, we're back. And I just want to say, before I forget again, 99 % Invisible, of course, did an amazing episode. Oh, of course they did. On this back in 2012. The great Roman Mars. Yeah. And you could be like, oh, that's not what Josh and Chuck said. They said something different. Just go with Roman Mars interpretation.

37:14Josh Clark:Yeah, I just weirdly texted Roman the other day or yesterday for the first time in a long, long time.

37:19Chuck Bryant:Like weirdly? You said something weird?

37:22Josh Clark:No, just weird that you brought him up. That's like twice that he's been mentioned in my life. And twice in a couple of days. And it had been a while. And he didn't text me back yet. Come on, Roman.

37:31Chuck Bryant:Seriously, Roman, get your act together.

37:36Chuck Bryant:So, yeah. So, Kylian, Wild City, it's going along. Most of the stuff we've just talked about, the 14-story buildings, lovers' buildings pressed up against one another, the trash tunnels, all that stuff is really taking place from about 1970 to, say, 1990, 92. Okay? That's like the peak of the notoriety and infamy and just the way that people think of Kowloon Walled City. It was basically between those decades, right? And even before then, even before there were 14-story buildings astonishingly going up in the city, the Brits were like, we really hate that Kowloon Walled City is sitting there. It's just like a thumb in our eye that the Chinese just keep rubbing over and over again.

38:22Chuck Bryant:We really want to get rid of it. But their hands were tied, essentially. Despite that, they tried a bunch of different ideas to try to get people out of Kowloon Walled City so they could tear it down.

38:34Josh Clark:It was a toe in their tea.

38:36Chuck Bryant:Perfect. Man, you are on fire today.

38:39Josh Clark:I mean, can you imagine anything worse?

38:42Chuck Bryant:A foot in your Brunswick stew. Right. Oh, wow. Okay.

38:49Josh Clark:With a shoe on and everything?

38:51Chuck Bryant:Good.

38:51Josh Clark:Let's call back. All right. So if you don't know what that is, everybody, that's going to be a little Easter egg for you one day. Yeah. Deep in the stuff you should know archives. Thank you. Deep in a pot of Brunswick stew. All right. In 1962, the Brits started, or I'm sorry, they completed construction on a high-rise public housing complex called the Tung Tau Estate. Sure. And they're like, all right, everybody, look what we built for you. Residents of Kowloon Walled City, get out of there. Come on over here. We want to resettle you. This is much nicer. Authorities showed up. They had notices that they posted and handed people.

39:28Josh Clark:and they were met with the Kowloon Walled City Anti-Demolition and Anti-Removal Committee who said, no thanks, we want to stay here.

39:35Chuck Bryant:Yeah, and so they said, you know what? We're going to tell China on you essentially. And China stepped in and was like, no guys, you're not going to do that. These people have a right to live here. This is, quote, a gross violation of China's sovereignty and everybody should protest and strike. And they did. And the cops came in and there were clashes. And it became essentially an international scandal that the Brits were picking on these poor people who were squatting in this poor area in a colony the Brits were administering. It was not a very good look. So the Brits backed off. And it was another chance for China to be like, ha ha, we are really using Kowloon Walled City to the maximum effect.

40:22Chuck Bryant:So the Brits, who still wanted to tear this down, they went back to the drawing board.

40:27Josh Clark:That's right. But what they knew they had was this 99-year lease. Yeah. Signed in 1898. So you do the math. 1997 was that year on the horizon, just sort of sitting out there. I would have said 98. And the Brits, they knew this date was coming. China knew this date was coming. And they were like, all right. do China was like we've been making hemming and hawing about this thing being sovereign like do we really want this back in 1997 do we want to inherit this thing and on the Brit side they were like aha like we know what they're thinking over there they don't want to really inherit this thing either so they started some sort of more legitimate like agreeing with one another as far as talks go as early as like 1986 when China was like, maybe we should actually talk this over now.

41:19Chuck Bryant:Yeah, and these were secret talks, right? So for China, this city had outlived its political usefulness. And I guess just as a, I mean, they wanted to tear it down so badly that the Brits were willing to do this for China shortly before the handover in 1997. And so what they came up with is that residents would be offered financial compensation, pretty good compensation too, I think about$300 ,000 for a flat. That again, they'd spent maybe$30 ,000 on 20 years before. They would be moved into a high-rise public housing unit. They're basically all going to be resettled into a nicer life gratis with a little spending money.

42:01Josh Clark:That's right. So finally, on January 14, 1987, they got 360 staff members from the clearance and squatter control from Hong Kong. and they came down to Kowloon City and they were like, hey, we need to get a, we need to know how many people are here. We need to know how many people are resettling. So we need an actual census. Right. Like no one has a clue. We've been guessing how many people live here based on ordinary numbers and this is an ordinary place. So they cordoned off all 83 entrances and exits to the city, went door to door and did a census and counted people up and said, hey, this is the plan moving forward.

42:40Josh Clark:You're going to be resettled. and there wasn't a riot this time. They were still thinking like, oh yeah, we're going to tell China on you because they didn't know their secret talks had been going on. This time it was different and the Chinese foreign ministry finally stepped up and in a formal statement said, in so many words, yeah, the time has come and we're giving this over to the British. They're going to rid this place of its residences and it was nice while it lasted.

43:10Chuck Bryant:Yeah. So that was 1987, you said? It wasn't until 94 that Kowloon Wild City was finally fully demolished. And it wasn't until two years before that, that the last resident was finally evicted. There were a few holdouts. A lot of people were like, yeah, I'll take 300 grand and a new place to live. There were some holdouts because probably people have guessed this, but we didn't say it overtly. there was a tremendous amount of pride among people living in Kowloon and Wall Street. Yeah, that was their home. Yes. And it was a very special and unique home and they were not going to find that anywhere else on earth and they knew it.

43:51Chuck Bryant:And so a lot of them were holdouts for a very long time and did not want to go.

43:55Josh Clark:Yeah, and I imagine it attracted just like the initial attraction in the 50s and 60s, people that didn't want to be under like the thumb of a government was still sort of a sentiment there. Yeah. they didn't want to assimilate to the larger sort of system because they had a system that they felt worked for them in whatever way that was. So I have a lot of respect for the people that were like, no, I don't want to leave. You can't kick me out of my home. But like you said, sadly, the last person was evicted in 1992. There were people burning Union Jacks, setting off homemade firecrackers and stuff.

44:30Josh Clark:A few people actually physically battled the cops a little bit. But it wasn't, you know, it was a pretty small resistance. And in July of 92, the last person left.

44:40Chuck Bryant:Yes. So there's nothing really left of Kowloon Walled City. It's just the footprint. This footprint has been around for hundreds of years and it will not go away. It's an indelible print on Hong Kong as a town, as an area on the Kowloon Peninsula. And even the Kai Tak Airport is gone now. They've moved the airport further away from the city center. because, like you said, they had to be very careful descending. We've talked about it before. I don't remember. Maybe like our air traffic control episode or something? Yeah, probably. Where, like, you basically had to clear the 14-story Wild City and then suddenly drop to hit the runway.

45:19Chuck Bryant:It was really not well planned because there wasn't really a plan. So they moved the airport. They got rid of Kowloon Wild City, and now there's a park there in its place. Yeah.

45:29Josh Clark:And I think they did that documentary say that original religious building is still there. It's like the only thing that's left from the from the early days.

45:37Chuck Bryant:It was the office of the administrator of the fort. And yes, it's still there. They preserved it in the Kowloon walled city. That was what that courtyard was. It was built around that that original office from the I think the Qing dynasty.

45:52Josh Clark:Yeah, that was it. That's the only thing from the early days that's left. It's a, like you said, it's a green space and there's ponds. It's quite lovely. They do have a table size scale model of what was there. But yeah, it's still that same shape. Like if you do aerial shots, you know, it's really stuck to their parameters. Yeah. With the city, once the walls were gone and with this park, because it's the exact same shape still. And, you know, like we mentioned, it's been in a ton of either directly sort of been the setting for movies, like in Bloodsport from Jean-Claude Van Damme or been heavily inspired by the look they were going after in video games and films.

46:33Chuck Bryant:I don't care what you say. Bloodsport was a good movie.

46:36Josh Clark:You know what? I didn't see a single Jean-Claude Van Damme movie.

46:41Chuck Bryant:I'll tell you this off mic. But anyway, I finally saw Bloodsport a couple of years ago and I was like, wow, this movie is actually really good. I got to check it out. Oh, you should check it out. That's what I'm saying.

46:56Josh Clark:Yeah, that's my new deal is Jean-Claude all the way. Okay. Okay. Where's he been?

47:02Chuck Bryant:Remember he had like a podcast or a TV show or something for a little while?

47:06Josh Clark:He had a podcast, of course.

47:07Chuck Bryant:Yeah, I think he did. Did he interview celebrities? It was a, no, I'm sorry. It was like a TV show where it was a mockumentary or pseudo reality where he played himself, but Jean-Claude Van Damme actually was a spy in real life or something like that.

47:22Josh Clark:I haven't heard of that.

47:24Chuck Bryant:I think it was short-lived. All right. Well, since Chuck has dedicated himself to watching Jean-Claude Van Damme movies all the time, that means obviously it's time for Listener Mail.

47:37Josh Clark:All right. So this is a rare rebut to a Listener Mail. So a listener writing in about another Listener Mail. Because we had our Irish friend write in and point out that we were sort of engaging in Irish erasure.

47:50Chuck Bryant:Right.

47:50Josh Clark:So, hey guys, while the emailer was correct that Shackleton was born in County Kildare, Shackleton himself would have considered himself British. He was born in Ireland while it was under British rule and moved to Great Britain when he was 10. He served in the British Army and was awarded many British honors. I myself am a proud Irishman, but I don't think you were wrong in calling him British. I'm happy to accept that he was correct if there was a quote which shows that he considered himself Irish. Ireland and nationality is always a tricky subject. I hold a UK driver's license and an Irish passport.

48:24Josh Clark:I have one child technically born in the UK and one born in Ireland with just 80 miles between the hospitals and them both being on the same island. Keep up the good work, guys. Been listening for years and I love the show. That is from Jamie Finnegan. And we're not going to wade into this any further, Jamie, because I know that stuff is very tricky.

48:43Chuck Bryant:Yeah.

48:44Josh Clark:So we have read the original email and now the rebuttal. and we're going to leave it to you guys to work it out.

48:49Chuck Bryant:Nice. I think that's a great idea. And that was from Jamie, right? Yes, it is. Okay. Well, thanks a lot, Jamie. And if you want to be like Jamie, you can send us an email too. Send it off to stuffpodcast at iheartradio.com.

49:04Josh Clark:Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

49:21Josh Clark:Peace to the planet. Charlamagne Tha God here. And listen, we are back. The Black Effect Podcast Festival is back in Atlanta on April 25th at Pullman Yard. Yeah. And the full lineup is nuts. We got the Grit and Age podcast. Deontay Kyle and Big Ice Cup Cat. We got Club 520 with Jeff Teague and the gang. Don't call me white, girl. Mona will be there. Keep it positive, sweetie, with Crystal Renee. We got reality with the king with Carlos. King and yes, Drink Champ will be in the building. Plus, you know, we're going to have a lot of guests, so you need to join us. And we got the Black Effect Marketplace to pitch your podcast and everything you expect from the Black Effect Podcast Festival.

49:59Josh Clark:Tickets are on sale right now. Go get yours at blackeffect.com slash podcast festival. Don't play yourself, okay? Pull up.

50:11Josh Clark:You know Roald Dahl. He thought up Willy Wonka and the BFG. But did you know he was a spy? in the new podcast The Secret World of Roald Dahl I'll tell you that story and much, much more What? You probably won't believe it either Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been Okay, I don't think that's true I'm telling you I was a spy Listen to The Secret World of Roald Dahl on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts What if mind control is real? If you could control the behavior of anybody around you what kind of life would you have? Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car?

50:49Josh Clark:When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. Mind Games, a new podcast exploring NLP, a.k.a. neurolinguistic programming. Is it a self-help miracle, a shady hypnosis scam, or both? Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.