Selects: How Schoolhouse Rock Rocked: Featuring Bob Nastanovich of Pavement

26:41Yeah, she ended up writing 15 of the songs. Right. Including some of the biggest ones. A Noun Is A Person Plays Her Thing. Great song. Interplanet Janet, Interjections. It's a good one. A Victim of Gravity about Isaac Newton. Interplanet Janet sounds like Rocky Horror if you go back and listen to it. Yeah, it kind of does. It bears a real resemblance to it. Or Rocky Horror sounded like Interplanet Janet. I went and looked. Rocky Horror was three years before Interplanet Janet. The movie or the play? The movie. Okay. So the play was even before that. Was it a play first? Oh, yeah. Oh, okay. Meatloaf was even in the play.

27:14Oh, yeah? Before the movie. Not a play, I guess. Musical. Sure. Which is a play with songs. A play with songs and dancing. so the next one to come along was America Rock or History Rock which kind of vies for the best to me with Grammar Rock and that one tied into the bicentennial yeah that was big deal which you don't remember but I remember being a little kid being five years old and uh it took over the country for you know that entire year yeah I know there's like a resurgence in colonial emblems and stuff like that. You know, if you ever walk past, like, a very, very old person's house today, you might see, like, a flag holder that's a black metal eagle holding, like, some arrows maybe or something like that.

28:06That is from 1976. Still there. Like a resurgence in Betsy Ross and colonial, like, knickknacks and stuff. Yeah. I was just born, but it was, there was a, It created like a high watermark that I was able to see even, you know, four, five, six years later. So History Rock or America Rock featured some of the best songs. Mother Necessity, Shot Herd Around the World, and No More Kings, which is maybe my second all-time favorite. Yeah. Yeah, and that's the one that there was an album that came out in like 95, 96 called Schoolhouse Rocks. rocks i think so schoolhouse rock rocks where they got contemporary artists to cover these songs and did you ever listen to that i listened to the pavement one today oh man so i emailed bob nastanovich today from pavement because as i said in the previous episode i've tricked him into being my email friend um and i said hey dude i would love to hear if you you have any thoughts on no more kings how you guys were approached if there are any stories what it meant to you what it didn't mean whatever let me know crickets no no he emailed back uh and then i said i'll call you on my way to work call on the way to work crickets yeah got his voicemail and then as i was coming in the studio he called and left the voicemail saying he was in his minivan rocking out and he didn't hear the phone ring oh that's funny which is very funny to me but um I told him I'd like to hear what he has to say because he said he has a tale to tell about that experience.

29:45Man, we're going to have to record it after this. Well, yeah, or... Maybe it can be like a listener mail. Yeah, like if I can get him on tape, then we'll tag it at the end. Okay. If not, if it ends up being an email version or something, then I'll just maybe recount it in my own dumb words. Or you could ask him if we could read the email and make a listener mail. Oh, for real? Yeah. Like a real listener mail? All right, it's not a bad idea. So anyway, so listen up for the end for Bob Nastanovich's story about No More Kings. Because if you listen to that CD, it's like the Lemonheads and Ween. It's a super 90s CD.

30:25Yeah. Moby. Moby. And most of them are pretty straight ahead until you get to the pavement song. And it's just all pavement. Like Malcolm has changed his words. There's like laser guns. at the end, and it's just wonderfully pavement, like quintessentially pavement. Like leave it to them to just kind of throw it all out the window and do their own thing. I liked it a lot. Three-ring government? I didn't really know that one. That one was good. And apparently they, so it basically talks about the different branches of the government, but puts it in the context of a three-ring circus. and it's really I mean aside from the fact that it compares the government to a three ring circus it's not at all offensive but apparently they sat on that one for years and didn't release it until like 1979 because they were worried about offending the government which is a strange thing to worry about.

31:23Yeah. Through today's lens. Yeah. But even still I mean this is like post Watergate it's not like everybody was like oh. Right. Right, right. You know, we couldn't possibly call the government a three-ring circus. Yeah, that's true. That is weird. It seems like that would have been a good time to do it. Yeah, I think so. But the most famous song from that year by far was Sheldon's I'm Just a Bill. Is that your favorite? No. Okay. That was composed not by Mr. Doro, but by a man named Dave Frishberg. and um i mean that one was just a mega hit sure straight to number one on the billboard charts it's it's like as far as schoolhouse rocks goes that's the that's the um that's the cultural icon that signifies the whole thing i think close close second would be conjunction junction maybe they're tied i don't know but i just feel like i i'm i'm just a bill is the most readily recognizable one.

32:25Yeah, and it's just amazing when you look back, though, like the learning that was going on and the teaching that was happening. Yeah. These kids, us, we were learning how a bill becomes a law. Right. In the best way possible. Like, better than any, well, not any teacher. There were great teachers back then. I want to say, like, any dumb teacher that's boring their kids. But it definitely struck a chord with me. Sure. You know? Yeah. And that's how I remember a lot of this stuff. And apparently, too, adults were also noticing schoolhouse rock at the time supposedly there were plenty of orders this was before video cassettes yeah before they were widely available i guess in the home i'm trying to think of how they would have played them if they didn't have video cassettes but anyway apparently lobbyists and uh legislators would get in touch with abc and be like you got to get me a copy of that I'm a bill thing.

33:19Give me a Betamax. Because I want to show it to my staff to train them on this kind of stuff. Well, I think they asked for cassettes at least, at the very least, so they could play in the music. I see. Maybe that's what they meant. Probably. Okay. An eight track? Yeah. And then there was Science Rock was the year after that. That was 78 and 79, which was pretty good. Interplanet Janet, Victim of Gravity. I really like that one. It is so weird. What, Interplanet Janet? Yeah. Yeah, that's a good one. And then the Telegraph Line song, which I think that was written by Ms. Arons, too, I think. Oh, yeah.

33:56And that one was really like, I mean, it was, you literally learned about the nervous system and how the body communicates to the brain by listening to that song. And that's one that they wanted to play for med students. Yeah, and they did. Amazing. Some of them. All right, well, let's take another break. and geez we'll cover the sad last season of Schoolhouse Rock after this

34:35New year new goals and in this economy a better money plan is more necessary than ever I am Matt And I'm Joel. We are from the How to Money podcast. And every week we help you to spend smarter, save more and make sense of what's going on out there. If you want 2026 to be the year you finally feel in control of your money, we're here to give you the tools and advice to help you make it happen. Listen to How to Money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, Kyle. Could you draw up a quick document with the basic business plan? Just one page as a Google Doc and send me the link.

35:09Thanks. Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one-page business plan for you. Here's the link. But there was no link. There was no business plan. It's not his fault. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. My name is Evan Ratliff. I decided to create Kyle, my AI co-founder, after hearing a lot of stuff like this from OpenAI CEO Sam Altman. There's this betting pool for the first year that there's a one-person billion-dollar company, which would have been unimaginable without AI, and now will happen. I got to thinking, could I be that one person? I'd made AI agents before for my award-winning podcast, Shell Game.

35:45This season on Shell Game, I'm trying to build a real company with a real product run by fake people. Oh, hey, Evan. Good to have you join us. I found some really interesting data on adoption rates for AI agents in small to medium businesses. Listen to Shell Game on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. What if mind control is real? If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have? Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you?

36:20I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. NLP, aka Neuro Linguistic Programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology. Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain. It's about engineering consciousness. Mind Games is the story of NLP. It's crazy cast of disciples and the fake doctor who invented it at a New Age commune and sold it to guys in suits. He stood trial for murder and got acquitted. The biggest mind game of all? NLP might actually work. This is wild. Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

37:07Starting January 20th.

37:26So Chuck, Schoolhouse Rock for the first four seasons was the epitome of creativity. Even their process was creative. Like the songwriters would, I guess they would say, this season our theme is going to be science or going to be grammar or whatever. So go forth and figure this out. And the songwriters would come up with songs and they'd pitch them to the creative team. And so there was this process of creativity and it started with the creatives. That's the key here. That's what made it just so legitimate and so wonderfully creative this whole time. It started with the creatives, right? Yeah, and they would, pretty cool, they would get them vetted by that Bank Street School of Education.

38:10Yeah. So they would make sure everything was like, you know, was right. Yeah, and then ABC would be like, oh, let me say it. And then they'd say, oh, I guess it's fine. And then they'd start to storyboard it once they had the lyrics set in stone, right? That was the first four seasons. The fifth season, they said, die, creativity, die. and they reversed the process and they said, hey, songwriters, here are your assignments now. We think kids should know more about computers, so we're going to just screw this whole thing up, okay? Yeah, this is a part I don't get. It says the ABC program exec, Squire Rushnell, commissioned this because there was the idea that children were afraid of computers.

38:50I guess. I don't remember anything but there being excitement about computers. I don't remember any kids being like, I don't want to go near that. Yeah. I remember kids being like, oh, that's cool. Let me sit down and— Usually it was the parents that were afraid of computers. Well, I think herein lies the problem with season five. So we should say season five, too, if you notice, we jumped quite a bit from 1979 to 1985. Schoolhouse Rock was running all those years on Saturday mornings. Yeah. They just weren't any new ones. They were the same ones that they were rerunning. Yeah, the classics. In 1985, Squire Rushnell says, give me four episodes or six.

39:27Is it four or six on computers? Yeah, and we're going to call the season Scooter, Computer, and Mr. Chips. What do you think of that? So it's what? Like a computer with a bag of chips? It's like, no, Mr. Chips is a computer. Well, what's Scooter, Computer? He's just a kid. And there you have it. And they said, well, what about the Goodbye, Mr. Chips, that great book? And he went, no one's ever read that. What's a book? so uh it was a little confusing we have disdain for him it's a little weird i know i feel bad if that's not really how it went down but it sounds kind of like that classic story you know sure like an executive takes over the creative and it just goes downhill it's usually how it happens um and i do feel a little bit bad because you know the originals were still involved they got mr doro back on board yeah and uh i think they did the best they could but i think one of the issues is um all the other seasons you know math and science and history it's all civics it's all baked in like that stuff is classic and didn't change when you're writing songs about uh data processing and basic computer language a couple years later like no it's not relevant anymore right you know yeah so it's sort of that's why no one's ever heard of it plus again they were like so wait scooter computers the boy or the computer he's hanging out with right and why is the computer her on roller skates.

40:48Just stuff like that. It was an undignified end to something really great. Agreed. They pulled the plug on the whole thing in 1985. They said, hey, this Mary Lou Retton lady, we like her. She's got gumption. She's got apple pie coming out of her ears. Gross. We love her, and we want to put her on TV. They put her interstitials on. Yeah, ABC fun fit. I'll bet that was the same time when Reagan made Arnold Schwarzenegger his fitness czar. Remember that? I bet. Totally remember that. The presidential fitness test, right? Yeah. Man, I failed that so many times. Yeah, I think I was always sick that day.

41:31Like, I've got to climb a rope. Still to this day, I've never climbed a rope in my life. No. Made it this far. Yeah. Man, I'm going to be chased by a tiger on the way home. I was going to say, that's how you're going to meet your demise one day. You're going to be in a burning building and a rope's just going to fall from the ceiling like a cartoon. Reagan.

41:51In the late 80s, there was a student at UConn, Go Huskies, that said, I want to bring Schoolhouse Rock back. They started a petition. I could not find this person's name for the life of me. I couldn't either. Sorry, person. But ABC said, you know what, people want this. And I guess it took them a little while to get around to it. But in 1993, they brought it back, rerunning all those classic tunes and cartoons, and added some new stuff by Bob Doro and the gang. Yeah, they brought back the originals. And this season was called Money Rock. And they did a substantial number of new episodes, but again, written and performed by all the original people, but a good starting of 20 years later.

42:37Yeah. and they had things like $750 once a week which is about maintaining your budget Tyrannosaurus Debt which is about the national debt and plenty of others I remember the tale of Mr. Morton that was another Lynn Aaron's offering what was that one about? I can't remember exactly I didn't go back and re-watch it but I remember he's like lost all his money on scratch offs or something I don't think so

43:05but you know again the reason why it worked so well is because these were men and women who were used to selling products for a living, and it was just sort of a natural thing for them to do as an ad agency. It seems weird at first when you're like, an ad agency came up with Schoolhouse Rock? But it kind of makes perfect sense when you think about it. Yeah, I mean, they were selling these ideas to children in ways that were comprehensible to children, that were approachable by children, and they just kind of took the kids' point of views and packaged it for them, I think is a good way to put it.

43:43Yeah. So besides the Schoolhouse Rock Rocks CD, which I still have, actually. Yeah, that 90s thing created a bit of a resurgence of it. Yeah. A resurgence in popularity for sure. Boy, that Blind Melon, Three is a Magic Number was great. Yeah. Yeah, Shannon. I didn't hear that one. Did you like them? Yeah. I think Soup their second album is one of the great underrated records of the 90s I don't recall that one man it was good I think I only heard their first album but they that was good too I think they made like the pop charts right out of the gate and just kind of were unfairly labeled as a pop group even though they really weren't they were there was a lot more to them no rain song and the catchy video with the little girl and everything yeah yeah Soup was good man you should check that out I will it's very good very sad what happened to him.

44:32Yeah, he OD'd and they didn't find him for a while, right? I don't remember that part, but maybe. I think nobody missed him for a little while or something like that. What a waste. In 1993, though, there was another resurgence. I guess that was before the CD when they took it to the stage with Schoolhouse Rock Live, which kind of started out as most great theater like this in sort of a basement black box theater in Chicago, and it just grew from there to eventually an off-Broadway run. Yeah, not just that. It started in the basement theater of a vegetarian restaurant in Chicago just to add that extra little dose to it.

45:15Yeah, why not? But yeah, it made it onto off-Broadway. Yeah, it ran for four solid years, and then they had a touring version. I remember wanting to see it, and I think I was living in New Jersey at the time. I should have gone and seen it. I think I had no money at the time. I think you still might be able to catch it. There's a group called the Theater Bam Chicago. Theater Bam Chicago. And they're still doing shows? They're still touring, as far as I know. I need to do my Free to Be You and Me live show. That's one of my dreams. I've talked about that before. Isn't that Rosie Greer one? Yeah.

45:54Did he do the whole album or just that one song? Just the one. it was conceived by Marlo Thomas. That's pretty great. But, yeah, that was another, like, that one hits me square in the face still from childhood. Right in the bread basket. Right in the bread basket. In 97, they had a 25th anniversary package of VHS tapes. Yeah, so think about this. Like, it goes off the air in 1985, 1985, then all of a sudden, 93, 94, 96, 97, there's, like, schoolhouse rock everywhere. It will never die. No, and I think, like, this was one of the first instances, because, dude, admittedly, Generation X is extremely nostalgic as far as generations go.

46:38Yeah. Very nostalgic. I would propose that Schoolhouse Rock was the thing that kicked it off. Oh, yeah? As far as Gen X nostalgia goes. Yep. Well, it definitely was something that was so drilled into our consciousness. Like, it's a touchstone. Right, but I mean, this resurgence of it, I think. is the first example of just how nostalgic as a generation, Generation X is. Yeah, for sure. That's mine. You got Sharknado. I'm predicting that that will be rooted out by historians in years to come. Yeah, dig that one out of the vault. Maybe at the place of your death, like a plaque next to that rope that you couldn't climb.

47:21It'll be a memorial. It'll be like, rope? Jeez. You already forgot? Right. In 2013, Kennedy Center had a sing-along for their 40th anniversary, 2 ,000 people in attendance. Pretty amazing. I would have done anything to have gone to that. And then it's been parodied and homaged over the years and everything from The Simpsons to Saturday Night Live. Did you see Conspiracy Rock? No. Conspiracy Theory? Dude. That was a TV Funhouse bit, right? Yeah, by Robert Smigel. It's one of the all-time greats, man. And he nails, nails the conspiracy theory, or nails Schoolhouse Rock. Yeah. But it's all about how these major corporations like GE and Westinghouse own the media.

48:07They own like ABC, NBC, all these media outlets and how they can use it to shape opinion and squash opinions that disagree with them or their products. Right. And choose what to report on. It is so good. Go watch it right now. It's on YouTube. But apparently there's a bit of a conspiracy theory around it as well because it aired on the actual Saturday Night Live episode. But then when they re-ran it and I think released that episode on DVD, it wasn't there. They edited it out. And supposedly it was just because Lauren Michaels didn't think it was funny. There's just no way that that's all it was.

48:49It was so— I'm thinking no. It was such a smack in the face to NBC and all the other ones. Well, and they just had one a couple years ago that was an homage to I'm Just a Bill that was pretty great, too. Yeah. This was better. You got to see it, man. Yeah. I have a feeling I have, and I just don't know it. He nailed it. I'll let you know. I'll text you and say, I have seen it. And you'll say, who's this? I don't have your number in my phone. So I actually ran across a little bit, as great as Schoolhouse Rock is, I actually ran across criticism of it. What? Yeah. Oh, boy. Are you going to shut us, leave the room?

49:31Maybe. I'm about to get angry. You might want to. All right. So they were teaching very broad concepts to kids in ways that kids could understand. Awesome ways. And when you're coming at them with multiplication or grammar, whatever. Sure. But apparently, especially with the history rocks or America rock season, depending on what you want to call it, that's where the criticism tends to come out. So there's one called Elbow Room. Did you remember that one? Got to get you some Elbow Room. Right. Where it's about there's so many white settlers that we just got to spread westward. Oh, okay. I see where this is going.

50:12Not a single Native American is shown in this westward spread. Yeah. They actually mention that it's God's will manifest destiny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the whole thing kind of, I don't want to say it came under fire because it's not like everybody's like, oh, yeah, elbow room. Forget Schoolhouse Rock. Yeah. Very few people are. But there is criticism of Schoolhouse Rock in that it really kind of fed American children the popular line on things. Yeah. And it was just exactly the kind of stuff where when you grow up, you're like, wow, I was really misled when this was first explained to me as a child.

50:48Yeah, yeah. Well, we talk about that a lot, too, about how schools, especially in the 70s and 80s, whitewashed a lot of stuff. And so this was part of that. I can see that. I mean, it was, and I'm not justifying it, but it was definitely of the times. For sure. Which is why I think that these creatives were like, we can't say this to kids. I think that there's definitely been more of an awakening in recent years. There wasn't a Trail of Tears song, in other words. Right, yeah. And this is another name for what they were talking about. Like forced removal was turned into, got to get some elbow room.

51:27So catchy, though. I want to know, Chuck, because I'm not in school and I don't have a child in school. I don't have a child at all. Well, I have a four-legged child. But are they still misleading kids like they did when we were young? Do we just assume now that we know the deal that they don't do that any longer? Or are they still doing it? So any history teachers out there that are like fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth grade, because that's when I remember really being just overtly lied to. And then as we got a little past that, they started to be like, well, maybe the Native Americans didn't really want to leave.

52:05Right. And then it just got a little more legitimate. So I want to know. Teachers out there, let us know. I bet the answer we'll get is that we've come a long way, and it probably depends on your district. Oh, yeah. And maybe even your teacher. Yeah, I can see that. I bet there's not like one sweeping answer for that one. But there's definitely been progress, you know. I would guess. You know who would let us know is Tyler Murphy. Yeah, Murphy. He would know. Let us know. Well, I know what he's doing. He's doing all the right things. Oh, yeah. He's up on the desk. Yeah, yeah. Opening minds. Great stuff.

52:39So you ready for my favorite? Yes, please. Rufus Xavier Sarsaparilla. What was that one about? Pronouns. Oh, yeah? I have a hard time expressing how much joy this song brings me still. Yeah? I listen to it a lot. Yeah? If I'm ever down, that's the song. That's pretty great. It's amazing. The wordplay is unbelievable, and it's another Sheldon song. Right. It's very fast. I looked up to see if people did it live and stuff, and everyone always slows it down because nobody can. Oh, is that fast? Well, it's just very complex. The whole idea of the song is the complexity of all these nouns that you can replace with pronouns.

53:27I got you. I got a friend named Rufus Xavier Sassparilla, and, you know, they go to the zoo and there's an aardvark and an armadillo and all these big words. He's like, I could say that or I could say he did this and we did that and she said this. Nice. Yeah. It's a word that takes the place of a noun like kangaroo. Can we play it? You know what? We wouldn't because of law. They should make actually one about copyright infringement. Right. It would start out as a bill. Yeah, so we probably can't play enough of it to do it justice, So I just say go and listen to that song in full because it's delightful.

54:06All right, I'll do that. Man, they go to the zoo. There's animals. They all pile on a bus. They. Yeah, this girl in Rufus Xavier's Asperger. They. Yeah, exactly. It takes a place for now. You got anything else? No, but there probably will be a tag on this one with Mr. Nostanovich or with me just recounting his tale of No More Kings. So if you want to know more about Schoolhouse Rock, go read this article on HowStuffWorks.com. And since I said that, it may be time for Listener Mail with Bob Nastanovich. All right. So now, as promised, or as hopefully promised, we have via telephone in the studio, Mr.

54:48Bob Nastanovich, who is actually a member of two of my favorite bands of all time, both Pavement and Silver Jews. And it's a real treat to have you here, Bob. We did a show on Schoolhouse Rock and talked kind of at length about Pavement's efforts toward that, I guess, late 90s CD. And got in touch with you, and you said you had a couple of stories to tell. It was a—we were in Memphis. We were supposed to be making a Silver Jews record. And the singer of Silver Jews, David Berman, decided he did not want to make the record, and he went home. And we'd already booked a week of studio time Silver Juice had.

55:33And then subsequently, Stephen and myself and Steve West were unceremoniously fired from Silver Juice. That's beside the point. We were kind of like, I had all this studio time that David was supposed to pay for. sort of bail them out. Pavement sort of took that and made a record. So Stephen thankfully had three songs and we made a Pacific Trim EP, but I guess most significantly in regards to this project, Jackie Ferry, a dear friend of ours, was supervising the Schoolhouse Rock population. And she gave us our choice of songs and it was fairly obvious to us that No More Kings had a lot of appeal.

56:28It was always our favorite one. We were kids, Boston Tea Party theme. We were able to use the vocal stylings of Steve West to our advantage, I believe, for the first time in band history. What did he do for that song? And it all turned out to be we were very pleased with it. We were very pleased with all of it. And I think that it's an outstanding compilation. And it's one of those things in Pavement's time that I feel like we actually did a good job on. Now, what did Steve West do for that one? He played drums and then all the deep voice rambling in the background. Mostly him. He's got an incredible voice, speaking voice.

57:17He's one of the people that you can hear from 150 feet away with a wind. He's got a beautiful deep voice. He's doing all the ranting and raving. It was all pretty jubilant. We had a good time. It was the only time the three of us ever recorded together as payment.

57:43I feel like we made a good choice. and we just loved that song. It was one take. Oh, really? It was an overdub. Yeah, one take on the instrumental and just some vocal dubbing. Probably took eight minutes. Wow, and it was just the three of you? Oh, yeah. Yeah, just the three of us. We were the only ones there because we thought it was going to be Silver Shoes and that was in Silver Shoes. So Canberra and Eibold were at home and I don't even know if they were contacted. We made that Pacific Trim EP, that song Give It a Day, during the same session and a couple other songs that are on the B side of that thing.

58:26No, Schoolhouse Rock was... This kind of thing in my mind, like, well, do we have anything to do? And it seems like I got this one song. It's like, well, we have to do this thing for Jackie. We have to do this thing for Jackie. We're probably sort of planning on doing it anyways, but Jackie at the time was a BJ on MTV. And she later became our, she was the nanny for Courtney and Kurt for Francis Bean Cobain. Oh, wow. And then she was the tour manager for Aiden. In fact, she has, she's been battling cancer for over a decade. But one interesting artifact that she owns is the actual cardigan, button-up cardigan sweater that Kurt Cobain wore in the famous MTV Unplugged performance.

59:22Oh, wow. Holy cow. Yeah, she's quite a character. But it was her project, and she was a good friend, and we wanted to do the best we could for her. Didn't really care about anything else. We didn't even realize, we didn't know there was a good tiny thing, like a limited edition of like 200 or whatever. But funnily enough, my wife, that was the first payment song she ever heard because her sister. Oh, really? Yeah, her sister bought the Schoolhouse Rock thing when her sister was like 14. But when my wife went, it would have been about 10. And she heard that. It was the first time she ever heard Pavement.

1:00:08That's pretty funny. Yeah, she likes it. We were talking a little bit about just your take and kind of just the different takes of all the artists on that compilation. And a lot of them were pretty straightforward. And I think I really like the Pavement one the most. because it was kind of the perfect mix of very straightforward at times and then just totally pavementized at times. Yeah, it's very, we don't, I mean, straightforward. I don't think we're kind of good enough to do things straightforward. Like, I think if you think of a band like Nickel Creek covering our song Spit on a Stranger, and they kind of Americana did or whatever.

1:00:52Sure. like in order to do like straight things you got to be you got to be good or else you're going to kind of humiliate yourself like for example like REM doing like pylons crazy they could do that pretty straight right because they have that sound so they just you know but I think like I've heard a lot of cover songs where it's like a great song and like a somebody with a great voice you know usually like a female will will sing it pretty straight just the fact that it's a somebody with a gorgeous voice, you know, covering a classic, it sort of works. But no, none of us are good enough to do that.

1:01:30We had to devise our own take on it, you know. Well, I thought it totally worked. Was the Schoolhouse Rock, I mean, was that something that you guys were into, or was there much decision? I mean, besides the fact that it was your friend asking, was it something that you thought was kind of cool, or did you feel like you should do it? Yeah, I thought it was a great idea. At the time, we thought it was a great idea, and at that point in our lives, I'm guessing it was like 96, 97, somewhere in there. Yeah, yeah. We'd forgotten. You know, like that point where we hadn't seen or heard any of that. The only one that I could really remember off the top of my head at the time was that conjunction junction.

1:02:15Yeah, of course. What's your function? But like, you know, those are some of the first songs when we were little kids, like under 10 years old, that got stuck in our head. Yeah. So, yeah, I just thought it was, I mean, if anything, the only negative I thought might be a little bit childish and corny.

1:02:36But, you know, as it came together, it just seemed like a very worthwhile project to me. And, you know, she was pretty earnest, Jackie, and I'm happy it all worked out. I kind of, I think it's actually become like sort of a, one of the more significant things that Pavement ever did, sort of outside the realm of Pavement. Yeah, for sure. Of still being Pavement. Like, you know, I don't even know. I'm the kind of person in regards to that band that would find out about things last. So I lived in Louisville and I was always at the racetrack and, and, um, you know, people would say, Hey, you know what, you're going to be making a new album in like two months.

1:03:16I wouldn't know anything about it. Or like, you know, you're going on tour, you're starting in London. I would like, you know, I just wouldn't even know. And like, so anything that rolled through the door there, like request to do stuff. I never knew about them, you know, unless we were going to do them, you know, so. Right. You can see where I was on the pavement, the pavement totem pole. Well, man, I always call you Pavement's secret weapon. Yeah, yeah. I think there was something about your addition to the band that really just sort of mixed everything up, whether it was the percussive elements or just you coming in with your unique take on backing vocals.

1:03:59yeah no i just um i think i presented the element of really not entirely knowing what i was doing and that was true and the funny thing about it is like even at this point in my life from people who are completely unaware of pavement uh mostly from this industry the horse racing industry like heard i was i was in a band even a successful band that can't even And it just doesn't make any sense to them. Right. They'll also, you know, they'll have to, like, look it up on Google or whatever to realize that, you know, we're actually, like, a band that made records and stuff. Right. Right. And then the funny thing is they'll always ask me to, you know, if it's musotypes or something I'm like, one thing I'm really sort of unaware of in the human race, I have no feel for people that like kind of collect musical gear and take music really, really seriously, like playing music really seriously and like jam and like, or just really like have this incredibly dry approach to like, like gear heads who like are really, really serious.

1:05:12And like, yeah, people ask me to jam. And I don't, I mean, my idea of, I don't, I don't jam. I mean, I can't imagine jamming. Like, what does that even mean? Like, right. No, I'm the same way. It's always really awkward. Like it's always awkward. Like people ask me to do something and then I'll be like, oh man, man, like, you know, like, I got to figure out a way to get out of this, you know, because, like, A, my skills, like, they're not going to, really not going to believe I'm in a band, like, once I show up with, like, whatever I have, two drums or whatever, and start hitting them, they're going to be like, there's no way this guy was in a band, like, this is a fake, you know, like, so, very strange, very strange.

1:05:54Well, you just got to say, no, man, I'm the secret weapon, and the secret weapon doesn't jam. Yeah, like the spice and some sort of bowl of burgoo or something. I don't even know. The whole experience was pretty magical. It still doesn't really make that much sense to me. I really enjoyed it for sure. But in regards to that specific project, that's something that went really smoothly. It never got to the point. I mean it was literally like Steven I'm sure probably worked on it that morning or something but when they pressed record on that Sluice Rock thing that thing was a humdinger it was in and out the door Doug Easey was like that's good you know like yeah that's probably a good approach for something like that because you don't want to overthink it and then it becomes a thing and it's stressful perhaps so I think that approach to just get in there and like knock it out was probably the way to go it certainly worked out in this case yeah and it's a song that has no history within the context of the band you know it's not like something that we've been working on or something that been sitting there something that had been played live yeah you know i mean i think that we had to you know pavementize it and give it a bit of an original spin because that's the only way we can really do it i mean like yeah you know like we were talking about with the straight thing you know you can't you got to have significant um yeah i'm Not that Steven and Steve West aren't talented.

1:07:27I'm not going to let those guys are great. But in fact, the fact they're able to improvise, something like that's pretty cool. But I remember being really, really happy that Steve West, who'd never really been used in pavement outside of just playing drums, that he sort of fit fantastically on that recording. So I sort of love that about No More Things. I love hearing him in there. Nice. All right. Well, thanks, Bob. I appreciate your telling us these stories. And I'm going to think of about 100 more reasons to have you on in the future. Yeah, anytime.

1:08:10I'm going to call this one sad yet happy email. Hey, guys. My name is Sam. I wanted to send you an email thanking you for your show. The podcast is actually a rediscovery for me. My dad used to play it back in 2009 when we would drive up to the mountain to go skiing. I have very fond memories of laughing and nerding out with my dad and brothers after a great day on the slopes. Can't believe you guys are still going strong after eight plus years. There is a little more to my rediscovery of your show, though, that I wanted to share. It's been four and a half years since one of my brothers, who is an amazing skier, died tragically to suicide.

1:08:47Since I was in college at the time, I didn't have enough time to properly grieve. Recently, I've been mulling through many painful memories that I ignored in those first three years. However, your show unexpectedly brought back really happy ones. It has reminded me of the fun adventure and learning our family enjoyed while listening to your show when we were skiing. I remember laughing hysterically with my family at your jokes, rolling my eyes when my brothers and dad would try to comment on your show to sound smart. Because it was so creepy, one of your favorite episodes of ours was the one on cannibalism.

1:09:19Being a high schooler at the time, I also really liked the show on flirting, because I thought I could put it into practice. Needless to say, it didn't really work. What? This month, I went home for a week to visit my parents, and I went skiing with my mom and dad for the first time since my brother died. It was very painful, but also unimaginably special. When my family and I are on the mountain, I feel like I can encounter my brother as he was when he was healthy and full of life. I can picture him diving down a slope that was way too steep with the most enormous grin on his eager face. All in all, it was a great day, so I just want to say thank you for the hard work and providing interesting topics to fill my time, making me laugh, but also inadvertently helping me cherish a special time in my life.

1:10:03Man, that was heavy. That is from Sam, and she sends hugs. Sam, that is fantastic. Thank you very much for letting us know. We appreciate that. And our best to your whole family. Absolutely. If you want to get in touch with us like Sam did and just lay one on us, we appreciate it. Lay it on us. Send us an email to stuffpodcast at iheartradio.com.

1:10:31Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

1:10:47Hi, Kyle. Could you draw up a quick document with the basic business plan? Just one page as a Google doc and send me the link. Thanks. Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one page business plan for you. Here's the link. But there was no link. There was no business plan. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. I'm Evan Ratliff here with a story of entrepreneurship in the AI age. Listen as I attempt to build a real startup run by fake people. Check out the second season of my podcast, Shell Game, on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast.

1:11:20Guaranteed human.