Selects: The Truth Behind Cage-Free and Free-Range

28:20And a big one is density. It's a huge part of it. It's density. Like, there should be much greater limits on how many hens you can have per barn. And then also another one is even under these better, more stricter standards for hen welfare, their lives are very much artificially controlled still because they're kept in this barn. They're still in a barn. They don't go outside. To be cage-free, you still don't go outside. If you're a hen, you spend your entire life in one single barn until you stop producing enough eggs fast enough, and then they turn you into pet food. That's right. Sometimes feeding yourself back to your fellow chickens.

29:05I looked a little bit into what chicken feed is mainly made of. because I remember at the time when I took this tour, someone said something about there's chicken parts in the chicken feed. This was someone telling me this. I didn't find that in my research, but there has been a movement away from things like fish meal because fish meal is obviously the oceans are being depleted too. So using fishes to feed chickens isn't a great idea. And I think just a few years ago, So there was final approval to use, and it sounds gross, but like fly larva. And you might think like that's good. That is good because that's what chickens would eat if they were just roaming the countryside.

29:48They would eat things like that. Yeah. So they're starting to be fed things they normally would eat otherwise, which is good. Their food is still very much controlled and portioned and everything. But they're starting to be fed things that more resemble their diet, Whereas before it was just whatever was cheapest and most abundant that you could feed a chicken like soy and fish. Yeah, that's not natural. And you as the person eating the egg should be like, I don't want an egg from a chicken that's been eating fish its whole life. Chickens don't eat fish. This egg probably tastes way different than it should.

30:22And that's another thing too. There's a lot of health benefits that have been documented in eggs that come from well-treated chickens. It seems to be that the better you treat a chicken, the healthier the egg it produces is. You can just get a – and if you don't have a friend that has a backyard chicken, there's probably some local farmer's market where some fish fan will sell you their eggs. And you need only look at them from the outside at first to what they look like in the pan to what they taste like. It is a stark difference. It just is. Yeah, totally. You eat one, and you can take on, like, five cops.

31:00Yeah. There's that nutrient dense. These cage-free chickens, whether they're United Egg Producer Standard or just USDA Standard, they still have their beaks trimmed when they're 10 days old. They're still force-molted. Molting is a natural process, but they do something called force-molting when— And this is where they used to take away their feed entirely to force molting. Now they just withhold some feed to force the molting. It's when they shed those feathers and molt, and that extends their layer life by, you know, it's pretty substantial. It can be like 25 to 40 weeks. So, again, they're wringing every last egg out of those chickens, cage-free or not.

31:45I saw that the forced molting is not actually in and of itself harmful. and that it might actually be beneficial for the chickens because they live their life indoors. And one of the ways that they do that is through adjusting the length of the light, the artificial light. But the problem is if they're withholding— Yeah. No, it's not naturally happening, but it's not going to naturally happen during their lifetime anyway. And it actually is good for them to go through a molt. But they wouldn't without this induced or forced molting because they aren't subjected to natural light. They don't get natural light.

32:23It's all artificial. They spend their entire lives basically indoors, almost entirely cut off from natural light, if not entirely cut off from it. See, I thought hens molt by being a hen. No? No, I think they take their cues from a shorter duration of days and then they stop eating quite as much and then they go through the molting process, stop laying eggs as frequently. But that happens naturally, though, is what I'm saying. Yes, it does, but it's cued by changes in natural light. And if they're not exposed to natural light, they're not going to undergo the mold. Right. Unless you force it artificially.

33:03Yeah. But like Justin and Melissa's eggs mold because they – like it can be the shorter day of the natural light cycle of a year. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a natural thing. I'm just saying like they can induce it through artificial light, changes in artificial light. And it's not necessarily bad that they induce it artificially. It's probably better than just not doing it at all. Right. Okay, I gotcha. Okay. I thought you were saying they don't molt normally. No, no, no. I would never say something like that. Now we can move on. Those are hens that lay eggs. Now we can move on to hens that are raised for meat.

33:42They are called broilers in the industry. And it's kind of the same deal. Well, 99 % of American broiler chickens never see light in this country. They are in those from the moment they're born as little chicky chicks. They are in a barn, and they live about six weeks, and they are pumped up as fast as they can be pumped up to get the biggest breast meat possible. I think there was – Dave, this is pretty startling. Dave found a calculation that if you sort of transferred their growth rate to like what a human baby would look like, it would be a 349-pound baby by their second birthday. Like baby Huey.

34:28Yeah, that's baby Huey, all right. Yeah. So the way that they did this is through basically selective breeding, selecting chickens that grow in their breast area. but they've basically surpassed any point where you would normally stop because it's now very harmful for the chicken. These chickens that we eat, the broiler chickens, not necessarily a whole chicken. It can also be like drumsticks or breasts or thighs or whatever. All that comes from a broiler chicken. Any chicken you eat is a broiler chicken. So these broiler chickens are usually selected for their breasts and their breasts are so heavy that they can't really walk because their legs aren't developing the way that they should.

35:12But then in addition to that, their legs can't develop the way they should because the breast is so heavy. So they end up with metabolic diseases. They end up with muscle atrophy. And they don't do much of anything except eat and rest because that's basically all they have the energy to do. Yeah, six weeks is their lifespan. Yeah. Again, just want to reiterate that. So over the six weeks, yeah, they go from like chicks to slaughtered adults in six weeks. So they're growing that fast, but they're also growing way bigger than any normal chicken would, right? Any normal breed. So during that six weeks, they're stuck in this litter if they're in a situation where they have litter available to them.

35:53And they're just pooping and peeing in this litter, and they're not getting up enough to not get like blisters from the ammonia in the litter. It's a problem in and of itself. Like that's how basically obese these chickens are. that they cannot move much at all, and they end up getting sores from exposure to all the urine they're sitting in. Yeah, this was the hardest part of that tour for me, and the one where my buddy Barry and I actually left the building after. And I'll go ahead, and we probably should have issued a trigger warning, period, but hopefully the title of the episode would scare off any, like, vegans who really don't even want to hear about this.

36:34But trigger warning right here. one of the, you know, and this is what they do when one of the broilers or any of the chickens are injured or, you know, winged in some way that isn't, I don't know. I'm not going to put, I'm not going to label what exactly is wrong with the chicken when they pick it up by the neck and sling it in a little circle real quick to snap their neck and then throw it back on the ground. but that's exactly what happened in front of us when we saw a chicken that apparently wasn't doing well and the guy's literally in mid-conversation and I know this is the job that they do and I don't expect him to hold a funeral but that's when Barry and I stepped out and we were like, we're going to be out here for the rest of the tour I can imagine I don't smoke, but I'm about to start I had five cigarettes at the same time so there's this writer from the New Yorker named Michael Spencer who went to a poultry farm, and he wrote that there must have been 30 ,000 chickens sitting silently on the floor in front of me.

37:37They didn't move. They didn't cluck. They were almost like statues of chickens living in nearly total darkness, and they would spend every minute of their six-week lives that way. Yeah, it's pretty sobering. And those are the broilers. Those are the ones we eat, right? So, again, they're bred to grow this way and it's totally unnatural. Chickens don't normally get like that. And when they do interact with people, which is not obviously a requirement for a chicken to have a good life, but it's for what you just said. It's to harvest or kill a sick chicken or get the carcass of a dead chicken out of there.

38:15And if you want to see just how little of a role humans have in chicken farming today, there's a video that Dave found. It's actually like a trade video that I think is kind of like to sell all of these different machines. It's called Inside the Million Dollar Chicken Farm, Amazing Modern Chicks Poultry Farming Technology. It's on YouTube and it's like 16 minutes long. I didn't watch it with the volume, so I don't know if there's narration. But if you watch it on mute, it's just, it's mesmerizing and it's also like, Like, I really hope humans don't end up like this in the next, like, 100, 200 years, you know?

38:56Like, it's really, really weird and unsettling, but then also at the same time, deeply fascinating. Yeah, so the answer then would be free range. That is seemingly the solution. So what does that mean? We talked about cage-free and what that means. For the USDA, any egg or poultry product that can be classified as free range means the housing for the birds must provide continuous free access to the outside through their normal growing cycle. And again, this is sort of like that story when the guy said it just means there's a door. They don't go out there because their food and water is in here.

39:36USDA doesn't say how big this door has to be, where it has to be placed. They don't say – they don't require them to go outside. Like they don't shuttle them outside every day for some sunlight like you would like in a prison yard or something like that. All that matters is that they have continuous access. That door stays accessible and open. And so you've got your big barn again. You've got your small door. And if they want to go outside, they can. But then even if they do go outside, it doesn't say like, and you got to have this much area for this many chickens to roam around if they want to.

40:14It can be anything. It can be a pretty small little area and it still qualifies as outside. So those huge dark barns with artificial light filled with tens of thousands of chickens, if you popped a hole the size of a bread plate into the wall of that barn, you could call your operation a free-range chicken operation now. Yeah, I didn't see any that small, to be fair, but technically you're right. Yeah. And like, yes, it is technical that I'm right. But from the research into just how much of a finger the USDA has on what constitutes free range and who meets those requirements, it's entirely possible that somebody's just cut a little hole inside of the barn and now is saying free range and could argue that if an inspector did come out and argued it with them, they would probably, the egg producer would probably win that argument in court.

41:15Right. I mean, the doors I saw were bigger and chickens could easily fit like more than one chicken. Like they were sizable. But again, the whole point is their food and water is inside. Right. And so chickens are generally, and especially when they're still pretty crowded in there, they're still going to stay where their food and water is generally. It's not like they're saying, hey, we're going to put the water out. We're going to have outdoor class today, guys. Right. We're going to put the water and the food outside. That'll really encourage you to go outside. They don't care if they go outside or not.

41:46So we should say the EU has much better standards for what constitutes free range. They've been working at free range and cage-free stuff since like 99 and have really made some big gains since then. But then even in the United States, Chuck, there's plenty of people like Justin who are saying like, no, I actually want my chickens to be free range like you would think free range actually is. And so there's another kind of designation called pasture raised, which people tend to use when they're to kind of separate themselves from free range because I think enough people have picked up on the fact that free range is kind of meaningless.

42:29So pasture raised seems to be more legitimate, or most people who do legitimately raise chickens outdoors would call them pasture-raised. So they're like wheeling them around from place to place. They have an enclosure that they can go to in inclement weather, but for most of their lives, they're spending their time outdoors doing what chickens do, given plenty of space for being chickens. And that's typically pasture-raised. Unfortunately, as far as the USDA is concerned, pasture-raised is the same thing as free-range. So again, if you have a shed that has all these chickens and you cut a hole in the side, you can now call that pasture-raised too if you want.

43:14Yeah, you can't. And if you're saying that some places use pasture-raised or raged, that'd be quite a party. It's like anthrax is loose in your pasture. If you're saying that some farmers are doing it right, smaller operations, and when they say pasture-raised, they mean it, But technically, the USDA doesn't make a distinction. What am I to do? That's where you have to do your homework. You can't just make – if you want to, if it matters to you, you've got to look up this farm and see what they're doing. And a lot of times, these smaller farms will say, hey, come on out if you care, and we'll show you our operation because we're proud of it.

43:58They generally have websites where you can, and it's all there. I think the USDA even demands, not demands, but requires a, I demand a URL. They take their shoe off and bang it on the desk. They require a URL where you can look this stuff up if you want to. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, the USDA is all over that, which is good because, I mean, we've got third-party certification who could be illegitimate. But I think that, like, the industry would police third-party certifiers because they don't want to, like, give away their money unnecessarily. Because getting things like pasture-raised or free-range, like, these are, like, it's not required.

44:40You can opt to have it done to be certified like that, but you're going to pay for it. So if we had like phony, you know, certifiers running around, I guess, yeah, the big producers would probably co-opt it and use it to their gain. But luckily, there are some really legitimate third-party certifiers. And the one that seems to have bubbled to the top as far as I can tell is called Humane Farm Animal Care. FAC, I think, is the way that you say the abbreviation. Yeah, I think that's a good cliffhanger. Okay, yeah. And let's take our final break and we'll talk about them and generally how the USDA determines if it qualifies as cage-free or free-range to begin with.

45:23If you want to know, then you're in luck. Just listen up to Josh and Chuck. Stuff you should know. When you feel uncomfortable, what do you put on? Biggie. You put on Biggie when you feel uncomfortable? Because I want to get confident. This is DJ Hester Prince Music is Therapy, a new podcast from me, a DJ and licensed therapist that asks one simple question. Who do you want to be and what's the song that can take you there? Music changes what you feel and what you feel changes what you do, right? That moment where a song shifts something inside you, that's where transformation starts. This year, I'm talking to experts across every area of life, like personal finance icon Gene Chatzky, New York Times journalist David Gellis, relationship legend Dan Savage, human connection teacher Mark Groves, and the man who shaped my ear more than anyone, Questlove.

46:19They'll bring the strategies. I'll pair them with the right records and we'll teach you how to use the music to make change stick. This isn't just a podcast. It's unconventional therapy for your entire year. Listen to DJ Hester-Krin's Music is Therapy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The moments that shape us often begin with a simple question. What do I want my life to look like now? I'm Dr. Joy Harden-Bradford, and on Therapy for Black Girls, we create space for honest conversations about identity, relationships, mental health, and the choices that help us grow.

46:55As cybersecurity expert Camille Stewart-Gloster reminds us, We are in a divisive time where our comments are weaponized against us. And so what we find is a lot of Black women are standing up and speaking out because they feel the brunt of the pain. Each week, we explore the tools and insights that help you move with purpose. Whether you're navigating something new or returning to yourself. If you're ready for thoughtful guidance and grounded support, this is the place for you. Listen to Therapy for Black Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Like if we're on the air here and I literally have my contract here and I'm looking at, you know, as soon as I sign this, I'm going to get a seven figure check.

47:39I've told them I won't be working here in two weeks. From the underground clubs that shaped global music to the pastors and creators who built the cultural empire. The Atlanta Is podcast uncovers the stories behind one of the most influential cities in the world. The thing I love about Atlanta is that it's a city of hustlers, man. Each episode explores a different chapter of Atlanta's Rise, featuring conversations with Ludacris, Will Packer, Pastor Jamal Bryant, DJ Drama, and more. The full series is available to listen to now. I really just had never experienced anything like what was going on in the city as far as like, you know, seeing so many young, black, affluent creatives in all walks of life.

48:19The church had dwindled almost to nothing. And God said, this is your assignment. And that's like how you know, like, OK, are you from Atlanta for real? I ain't got to say too much. I'm a Grady baby. Shut up. Listen to Atlanta is on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Stuff you should know. Stuff you should know. All right. So you mentioned a couple of important things before the break. One is that if you want these certifications, it is like egg grading, stuff like that. You see like grade A eggs. It is a voluntary thing you have to pay for. So you do it so you can put it on your label so you can charge more, obviously.

49:09And maybe you care about delivering a higher quality egg. Who knows? But the USDA doesn't – like if it's certified organic, they're not out there doing that certification. That is completely done by USDA-approved certification bodies, and those seem to be a little more feet on the ground as far as actually going to farms and looking at them. The USDA does not require – and they can't. There are too many – I don't think they even had the staffing to do that if they wanted to, to go out and actually photograph farms and check it out. If you want that descriptor and label, you have to send in a detailed written description explaining how it meets the standards, along with an affidavit that's signed that it's not false or misleading.

49:58But that's kind of it. Like, that's all the proof they need. So that's for free range. Yes. Cage-free, they take way more seriously. That's where they do have inspectors go out and check. Right. So, like, if it says cage-free, it has been verified that this meets those cage-free standards. So that's a good thing. That's another reason why cage-free is a big step up. But, yeah, free ranges. You say, yes, my operation is free range under USDA standards. No, I'm not lying. And the USDA says, good enough. You can put free range on your labels now. Yeah, they did. I think Dave found a study from that Animal Welfare Institute that examined records from the FSIS.

50:41and they found that only one producer out of 100 actually submitted photos of the barn showing the access. Like I think 83 out of the 100 provided evidence, I guess not photographic evidence, but affidavits and third-party kind of certifications. And then 17 of them just had zero substantiation at all. and that they dug in a little bit and found in 44 cases they had no detailed written description at all, which is supposedly what's required. But they still got approval from the USDA to label their stuff as free range. Yeah. I don't want to say the word's rubber stamp, but it seems like it might be that way.

51:25For sure. And again, just buyer beware, free range is synonymous as far as the USDA is concerned with free roaming, pasture-fed, pasture-grown, pasture-raised, and meadow-raised. And again, just want to drive this home, it means that there's a hole in the side of this giant barn filled with tens of thousands of chickens who may or may not be going in or out of that hole on any day, or if ever, during their entire lives. And on the other side of that, it might just be a concrete pad is what they could be free-ranging on. Like, that's it as far as USDA is concerned. So we have a long way to go with free-range.

52:02in particular because, Chuck, like you, me, and basically anyone listening to this podcast has a totally different conception of what free range means, right? And there was a survey that was done, again, by the Animal Welfare Institute. They did it in 2015. And they went out to people, just everyday people, and said, hey, what do you think free range should entail? And they came back with some pretty interesting stuff. Yeah, you know, as you would expect, 65 % of people thought, that free range should mean that there's enough space outside for every bird to be out during the day, during daylight hours if they want to be.

52:39And 62 % of consumers said they thought the outdoor area should be at least partially covered by grass. Right. Like the expectation from consumers is, well, you put a picture on your carton of a hen rolling around this beautiful pastoral scene, so that's kind of what I expect. Or am I just being hoodwinked? And the answer is you're being hoodwinked. Well, to be fair, these are the same people that believe that those barbecue signs where a pig is actually cooking the barbecue, they think that's going on as well. So we've got to really kind of keep this in perspective. I never understood that one.

53:16Those are so disturbing. It really is. This is my brother, Lou. We're eating him later. We had a falling out. so like I said if you're if this all of this is just frustrating and confusing all you have to do is do a little legwork or you know obviously go to those local farmers markets because that's where that's where you really get into good stuff and talk to them I guarantee you that fish fan is going to invite you out to their farm to check out what's going on yeah but you might walk away with more than eggs you know what I'm saying that's right might be a nice trip so it literally and figuratively.

53:56So if you do want to figure out like where to get good eggs or what eggs you can trust and it's because you don't trust a fish fan, there are organizations that say like, let's not get fish fans involved in this at all. Let's keep them at bay. And everyone says, yes, agreed, agreed. How can we move forward without the fish fans? Let's keep them on the couch where they belong. So again, the Humane Farm Animal Care, FAC, they from what I can tell at least in the United States they definitely are legit and they've come up with some definitions for their certified humane labels so if you see certified humane on a poultry or some sort of food product it actually has met some really good standards and they're basically like the USDA's definition of free range and pasture raised are so terrible well, we're just going to create our own definitions.

54:53And they did. So they created their own standards. And to be certified humane free range or certified humane pasture raised, the producers have to meet those standards. And they're good ones. Yeah, they're really good, or, you know, comparatively speaking at least. For free range, the hens must be outside for at least six hours a day, weather permitting, obviously, and that outdoor space must have a minimum of two square feet for every bird. And again, that doesn't sound like much and it's not, but the difference between being able to move around freely when you have two square feet per bird and when you have an iPad per bird is pretty huge.

55:31Like you can actually move around and it's not just like being at the worst party you've ever been to. pasture raised certified humane even better than that the hens must be outdoors year round with mobile or fixed housing where the hens can nest or rest for the night get out of bad weather and they are they get about 108 square feet per bird a thousand birds for 2.5 acres a bird doesn't even know what to do with that much space no they're like hey can I build a wing onto my little in-house. That's right. And Chuck, one of the big things that they're doing at HFAC is they employ veterinarians, people with advanced degrees in animal studies.

56:18Those are the people that go out and visit these farms to certify them. People who know what they're talking about, people who are not going to be bought off, people with the animal's welfare in mind to verify that everybody's meeting these standards before they get that certification. So that's a good one. There are plenty of other ones out there too, but that's just based on our research and from what Dave came up with too. It's like, that's a good one to start with. But it's like you said, do your homework, you know? It doesn't take long either. It's not like you got to invest hours and hours into this chicken research.

56:50Like, I guarantee you, wherever you live, you can find some pretty good options with, you know, 15 minutes of research online. That's right. Near you. Yeah. So there you have it. We just need to get on the U.S. USDA to basically say, no, they have to spend a certain amount of time outdoors to be free-range. And then we'll go from there because the USDA will probably say 15 minutes to start. Yeah. If you want to know more about free-range chickens and cage-free eggs, there's a lot of stuff out there that you can read, and we hope that you will. And since I said we hope that you will, it's time for Listener Mail.

57:31That's right. This one is called Egg on Chuck's Face. because I misspoke in a big way on our National Parks episode when I touted disperse camping wherever you want in National Parks. I was thinking of national forests. Oh. That's where you can do disperse camping wherever you want. And, boy, I said it a bunch. So you can't camp anywhere you want in National Parks. Okay. And I feel terrible for that being out there so much that we might even have to edit that. But greetings from your friend in National Park Ranger. Your episode of National Parks was excellent, and we heard from quite a few park rangers, by the way.

58:08I'd like to address a statement made by Chuck. Some national parks may still allow disperse camping. It's commonly allowed in national forests, though. National parks and national forests are similar but have different missions and are therefore managed differently. National parks tend to regulate recreation a little more strictly. In fact, many national parks now have permit systems in place for backpackers. Yeah, that's very, very true. And those who successfully acquire permits even then are often restricted to camping in designated backcountry campsites. This prevents overcrowding in popular destinations, which lessens the amount of abandoned gear, garbage, and food scraps inevitably left behind by certain visitors.

58:47Certain visitors. I wanted to address this because though regulating where people camp and how many people can camp in a certain area may seem extreme to some, it helps preserve the wilderness, character, and solitude. So many visitors are seeking when they visit a national park. Additionally, visitors who disperse camp in a park that requires a designated campsite and or permit may be subject to fines. That's very important for all visitors to research regulations for any park, forest or wilderness that they're visiting. Happy hiking. And that is from our no-named park ranger. This park ranger wished to remain anonymous, which is we're always happy to do.

59:26Thank you, anonymous park ranger. happy hiking to you as well. That's right. And I even had one park ranger say, don't make fun of our green shorts. And to be clear, I don't think those shorts are the same color as those trucks. Oh, really? That's the color I was really making fun of. Okay. Maybe they are, but I don't know if there's a, if you could even make a fabric that color. Right. They just kind of appear. It doesn't adhere to textiles. Well, thank you very much again, anonymous park ranger into all the park rangers and everybody who wrote in to correct chuck who by the way took it with aplomb so way to go chuck if you want to get in touch with us via email like your friendly anonymous park ranger did you can send it to stuff podcast at iheartradio.com stuff you should know is a production of iheart radio for more podcasts my heart radio visit the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows

1:00:33This is an iHeart Podcast Guaranteed Human