Selects: What exactly is stoicism?

29:15Right. So, but I think if you're saying don't get upset about something that's out of your control, Don't blame others. Don't try to control other people. Just know that whatever comes, you can handle it. There you go. That's all you need to know for me. Yeah, and you know, I mean, how many times have you heard me say it is what it is, which is an annoying thing to hear and say? But it's pretty stoic. Well, it is, but it's also, in my case, like it is what it is until it isn't. It just matters if I'm personally riled up about something, you know? Yeah, but I think, again, though, if like there's probably some people who subscribe to at least modern Stoicism listening to this, and I would guess that they would say that's because Stoicism is basically meant to apply to every day of your life.

30:04like no Stoics are really expected to become sages in their lifetimes. Right. That it's something you just do every single day is try to not get riled up. But of course something's going to come along and get you riled up. That's just human nature. Stoicism is trying to put a bridle on that human nature. Yeah, well, and this is insider stuff. I think you and I complement each other because we rarely get worked up about the same thing. Just voter suppression. Well, no, it happens here and there, but just in our personal lives and everything to do with work, like oftentimes I've noticed like something that'll rile me up, you're calming me down and the other way around.

30:47And I mean, I think that's one reason we've lasted so long. Like if two people were so similar that they're constantly worked up about the same stuff, no one, you know, you're just going to be working each other up and no one's going to be there to say, hey, man, it is what it is. Yeah, man. Hey, mellow out. Here's a Bob Marley bumper sticker. Exactly. So should we talk a little bit about the areas of study? Yeah. All right. Well, there are three main ones in stoicism. And this is all, you know, to deal with introspection, which is kind of like all philosophies. Physics is the first thing, and it's not physics like you think of that you hate studying in high school.

31:28Well, it falls under a larger umbrella term, I guess. Yeah, they're talking about the natural world, the natural universe, and also what lies beyond it. And when they say the natural world, they're talking about everything. God, the divine, nature, everything that we know, and things that we don't know. Yeah, everything we would view as science, or like you said, nature. Yeah, all that stuff. That's physics. and all of it that one of the things the stoics i think if they weren't the first to come up with it they definitely popularized it was the idea that all of this was interconnected yeah which is pretty i mean you take it for granted today like everybody thinks that everything's interconnected these days yeah but um it's to be among the first to kind of point that out or suggest that's pretty pretty significant contribution to western thought yeah i imagine that was a pretty deep thing when it first started hitting people yeah you know can't you just see george carlin being like oh you just blew my mind uh oh because he was socrates man wait no he wasn't socrates he was um no he was the the guide their spirit yeah yeah what was his name oh man i killed on this We'll just edit this part out.

32:49I didn't know I had to brush up on my Bill and Ted. I didn't either. I surprised myself. You should have seen my face. You know, they kept talking about remakes like as recently as a couple of years ago, I think. Or not remakes, but sequels. With the originals? Oh, yeah. Keanu Reeves was like, man, I love those movies. I'd love to go make another one. Did you see? So was Keanu Reeves Bill or Ted? Why are we even doing this to ourselves? Boy, I want to say he was Ted. So the guy who played the other guy. Yeah, Alex Winter? Oh, geez, Chuck. Wow. Nice job. So Alex Winter was in, what was the Charles Bronson vehicle?

33:35Death Wish. Death Wish 3. Death Wish 3 was what he was in, which was when Golan Globus got their hands on it and turn it into like a schlock, violent, like almost post-apocalyptic movie. Yeah. And he's great in it, but he's also in a documentary on Golan Globus. I can't remember what the name of the documentary is, but it's just about how bad the movies they made were and how gleefully these guys made them. But he's interviewed in it. That guy hasn't aged a day. No. He looks exactly. He was definitely Bill. Okay, so he's Bill. Yeah. All right, so... So we got that settled. Physics is done. What's next?

34:21Logic, which they wanted to include social sciences, psychology, sociology, history, which I kind of like. I'm down with that as far as the philosophies go. They wanted to include all this stuff, but collectively they kind of called this all reason. Right. It was a very big deal to Stoicism, perhaps the biggest deal. Right, and they also were engaged in epistemology, which is theories of what knowledge is, how we gain knowledge, what's true, what's belief, what's false, how do we differentiate between these things. And they spent a lot of time investigating this and putting it all under logic because it was through logic that you could investigate physics, which included investigating God and the nature of the universe and stuff like that.

35:09and then through all that investigation, that introspection, that navel-gazing, you were ultimately figuring out how to best pursue and best live out the third part, which was the ethics of the whole thing. Yeah, and you mentioned the four great virtues earlier, courage, justice, wisdom, and temperance. And the whole idea here is it's not like you want to block out the bad and only embrace the good. You want to consider both the good and the bad, but just don't let any of it get in the way of anything that you're trying to pursue in your life. Right. Pretty simple. Yeah, and the whole good-bad thing, where did you find this thing on ethics?

35:57That was the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy from their entry on it. Yeah. It was pretty good. It was. Dude, you should have seen how in-depth they go, though, but I thought this one was a good snippet. Well, I'm sure, yeah, they dive pretty deep. But I thought this was a pretty good little summation. You know, they were talking about, like you said, like money isn't just not good or a.k.a. bad. Things like this they called indifference, as in I-N-D-I-F-F-E-R-E-N-T-S. Right. Not indifference. and it's like not good or bad. It could be either one. It's really kind of all about not letting something like that get in the way of your pursuit.

36:46Right. So, and again, it went back to wealth, right? And this person in the Encyclopedia of Philosophy points out that like money definitely, being wealthy usually is helpful or beneficial to the individual. Sure. But it can also not be beneficial where, say, you have a big heroin problem. Well, the more money you get, the more money you're going to spend on heroin. So in that case, being wealthy is detrimental to you, not beneficial. Right. And for something to be a good, it has to be good under all circumstances. And to a Stoic, there's only four things that are good under all circumstances, which are those four cardinal virtues.

37:29Right. Everything else, like you said, is an indifferent, and it can either be preferred or dispreferred. Like wealth typically would fall under being a preferred indifferent, whereas, say, disease, having chronic disease, would be a dispreferred indifferent.

37:50Man, that's tough, though. It is. But the point is, is whether it's fabulous wealth or diabetes, they should affect you about the same. Or you might want one, you might not want to have one, but if you have either one, you can live with it. And that brings up a huge, huge component of stoicism that's really been blown up and exploded in the 21st century, which is you should take adversity and turn it into an opportunity for growth. That is a huge aspect of stoicism that's really being practiced and espoused these days. Yeah, I'm down with that. like I don't think I like being able to take from all these philosophies and different religions to form your sort of uh pathway through life you know sure like when I hear sometimes I started to read about Buddhism and the whole thing with Buddhism of like every day you start anew and you have a new chance like that really appeals to me too right what I don't like is uh when either religions or philosophies say like, no, like this is the only way and everything else is BS.

39:09Sure. You know? Yeah. That just, that's a harsh buzzkill. It really is. Not only is it BS, but I'm going to kill you for thinking otherwise. Yeah. So Seneca, who was one of the great thinkers of stoicism, he was an advisor to Nero and we'll talk about him as criticism of stoicism later on. But he had a very famous quote where he says, You are unfortunate in my judgment, for you have never been unfortunate. You have passed through life with no antagonist to face you. No one will know what you are capable of, not even yourself. And that kind of shapes the basis of that idea that no matter what life throws at you, you take it and you say, I'm going to become a better person from this.

39:59Like, oh, this happened. Well, that's great because that means that I can learn to be better at this. So my dog just got hit by a car. I'm going to practice fortitude and make it through this really hard time and become a stronger person on the other side. Yeah, he may as well have said, you, trust fun kid, comma. Sure. Right, exactly. And I mean, people turn that on Seneca as well, But a lot of modern Stoics come to his defense as like, no, that guy had a harder life than you would think. Should we take another break? Yeah. All right, let's do it. And we'll talk about Seneca and Cicero and all other kinds of weird names.

40:55New year, new goals, and in this economy, a better money plan is more necessary than ever. I am Matt. And I'm Joel. We are from the How to Money podcast. And every week, we help you to spend smarter, save more, and make sense of what's going on out there. If you want 2026 to be the year you finally feel in control of your money, we're here to give you the tools and advice to help you make it happen. Listen to How to Money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Dr. Priyanka Wally. And I'm Hari Kondabolu. It's a new year, and on the podcast Health Stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health.

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43:33So, Chuck, you were saying you're talking about religion. Stoicism apparently informed Christianity in a lot of ways. Yeah, and Buddhism in some ways. Yeah. Yet atheists embrace it. It's kind of weird that way. These days. But, I mean, the early Stoics were definitely, they definitely believed in a divine intervention. It was kind of the basis of the whole thing that this is God's will, so why try to control it? Who are you to try to control it? Just roll with the punches. Yeah, that's a big, when I was taking all those philosophy quizzes, they're all a little bit different, but you saw a through line through a lot of these questions, and the free will one was in every single one of them.

44:15Like, how do you feel about free will? They had different ways of asking it, but, you know. Free will? What do you think? Exactly. If you want to find out which philosophy that you jibe with, you have to answer the free will question. free will question yeah hey that's easier to say than just preferred indifferent nice work so um so one of the big points especially today for practicing stoicism is looking at adversity as a growth opportunity for growth right that's just a good tool in life another one and this one i really this is where i big time diverge from stoicism as like a part of a daily practice is something called negative visualization.

45:02Yeah. Like, uh, try and try and imagine the worst case scenario. Constantly. Yeah. I'm not into that at all. No. So say you're, say you're at like your child's birthday party, right? And you are not you specifically, this is you, um, just a general person and you're having just the most intense moment of, of joy and appreciation for your child. According to Stoics, you should follow that up with a thought about how at your child's next doctor's appointment, your child could be diagnosed with terminal leukemia. Yeah. That that is what you should be doing basically all the time, negative visualization.

45:44And the idea is it's twofold. One, you're preventing yourself from becoming overjoyed at that moment. Right. Don't don't do that. Yeah. And then secondly, you're you're exploring how you will feel if your kid does get diagnosed with something horrible or something bad happens. And that when it actually happens, you'll say that's not so bad. I'm already used to it. Or you'll be able to confront it through your imagination and say, this is what I'm afraid of. that's not that bad. But I mean, that's a really extreme, horrific example. But it is ultimately, it's definitely in step with stoicism, that you should be visualizing the worst case scenario all the time.

46:29Yeah, I mean, and that's one of the reasons stoicism has such a downer reputation, such that Cicero wrote, a stoic rouse enthusiasm, he is much more likely to extinguish any enthusiasm the student may have to begin with. Burn. Yeah, it was a pretty good burn. And, you know, I get that. Like, who would, if you, if that was one of the first things you learned, if you started to poke around with stoicism, 99 % of people would probably be like, man, I don't want to, I don't like the sounds of that. Yeah. I like the not having to control everything aspect, but the thinking about nothing but negative thoughts all the time yeah you know and i i get the point of it i just it doesn't it doesn't appeal to me no i mean you shouldn't be pollyanna either um well no it's it's in direct contradiction to the idea of the power of positive thinking right which is stoics like you fool what are you doing all you're doing is setting yourself up for nothing but let downs when that doesn't actually come true well but i also agree with that to a certain degree you know, like the whole, like, just you can conjure it up just by thinking positively.

47:43I think that's on the opposite side, equally BS. Sure. Sure. I think so, too. I'm kind of right down the middle, I guess, when it comes to that stuff. And I think most people are. But I think that's what's fascinating about this kind of thing is it's like, well, there's some people actually are to these these degrees, these extremes. It's interesting to me. Well, yeah. And the other interesting thing is we, you know, you're talking about Christianity and then it's weird how Stoicism on one hand, like atheists, like I can totally see how they'd be down with Stoicism, but also the whole notion that, uh, some believers in God and some Christians like give it all up to God because only God can control anything.

48:26So, uh, all we're going to do is, is pray about it. And that's popular among Stoics as well. Right. So it's just interesting that it has such a wide range as far as from atheism to like the, you know, serious, serious, give it up to God Christianity. Right. Yeah. No, it definitely, yeah. It almost, it's kind of like, it's that buffet thing again, where people can come along and take what they want from it and it becomes part of their own philosophy or their own religion or whatever um let's talk about some of the ways that that it's been used over the years stoicism right okay so there's been a lot of people who have followed stoic thought like adam smith apparently um was very much informed by stoicism when he wrote the wealth of nations because one of the big big big aspects of it was individual liberty one one cool thing about the early Stoics was that everybody's equal.

49:26Yeah. Right. It doesn't matter whether you're a man, woman, uh, gay, straight, uh, black, white, whatever, everyone is equal. And this was at a time when slavery was rampant. Right. Yeah. Um, so that was a big, a big, that's a big aspect to, um, that's a big aspect of the wealth of nations is anybody can come along and become a capitalist. You just have to compete, right? Another place that it popped up kind of famously was in cognitive behavioral therapy. Yeah, which initially when I saw that, I was like, huh, that kind of surprised me, but then it all made sense. Right. Like exposure to something bad can help you get over it is kind of like that conjuring up the worst possible.

50:11It's almost numbing yourself to the worst possible thing if you think about that. worst case scenario thing all the time, it's almost a way of preparing for that. Yeah. And it's rooted specifically, one of the founders of CBT, Albert Ellis, was an adherent of stoicism as a younger man. And what's known as the cognitive model of emotion, which is the basis of cognitive behavioral therapy, is based on Epictetus's maxim that people are disturbed not by things, but by their view of things. And that's part of that whole stoic philosophy, which is nothing is good or bad. There's only good in the four virtues.

50:59Everything else is how you view it. Whether it's losing your job or winning the lottery, those things aren't inherently good or bad. It's you, the person experiencing that, who bestows good or bad on them. Yeah. And why label things? Sure. I'm down with that. Yeah? A little bit. Did you hear about Admiral Stockdale? Yeah, I remember that name for sure when he came out with his book, Courage Under Fire, colon, Testing Epictetus' Doctrines in a Laboratory of Human Behavior in 1993. he was a famous prisoner of war in Vietnam for seven years, endured some of the worst of the worst you can imagine in war.

51:45And what got him through was certainly not Christianity because he thought that's nothing but false hope. Well, not only that, he shared the POW camp with people who clung to that and did not make it. Yeah, so he saw it right up front. Right. Right. So what got him through was his stoic beliefs. Yeah, he was a huge, big-time adherent of Epictetus. He'd studied him in college. Apparently, he'd read everything that Epictetus had written or said that had been written down and attributed to Epictetus twice from two different translators. So this guy knew his Epictetus, and he said, well, I'm a prisoner of war in Vietnam.

52:29I've got some broken bones. I'm starving. I'm being mistreated. I'll be here for seven years. What a perfect opportunity to put Epictetus's teachings to the test in a real life laboratory experiment. And he said Epictetus passed with flying colors was Stockdale's final report on it. Yeah. He said, if Epictetus's lecture room was a hospital, my prison was a laboratory, a laboratory of human behavior. I chose to test his postulates against demanding real life challenges of my laboratory. So, man, talk about a strong will, like, to be faced with that and be like, well, hey, this is a great chance to work on my philosophy of life.

53:09Exactly. What else am I going to do? But that follows in and of itself on the whole, too, of turning adversity into a room for growth as well. Yeah, man. Yeah. Stronger than me, let's just say that. So, you want to talk about some criticisms of Stoicism? Well, Cicero certainly thought it was a big downer. Yeah. He said, well, you already said what he said, right? Yeah. It basically extinguishes enthusiasm in students. Not a good thing, right? Yeah. And then over the years, the fact that some of the great Stoic thinkers of all time have been super wealthy and powerful. Seneca, Marcus Aurelius was the emperor of Rome.

53:50He basically ran the free world. I don't know if the free world's right. the Western world for almost 20 years. Yeah. And when you sit there and, yeah, again, if you say, yes, you can turn anything into, any adversity into an opportunity, if you're super wealthy, you don't have to worry about where your food's going to come from. Like, yes, of course you can be a Stoic. And then Epictetus came along and, like we said, kind of erased all of that to an extent for sure. But it is still kind of criticized as like a wealthy person philosophy and it kind of smacks of that a little bit today too chuck with its huge um resurgence in silicon valley oh is that happening oh yeah most most of the stoic revival is taking place there that's where its cradle is right now oh well our own article has a couple of good points to talk about it um not being as appealing because it lacks the mystique of eastern practice And then they also said this, it's also regarded as a philosophy of merely breaking even while remaining determinedly impassive.

55:00Yes. I don't know if that's entirely fair, but it kind of catches it a little bit. Well, yeah, because the very next sentence is, this attitude ignores the promise proffered by Stoicism of lasting transcendence. And that one article that you sent talked about the power of indifference. Right. Which I thought was interesting. It's not about just like not caring about anything. It's about caring about only the right things that you have the power to change. Yeah, and also, though, I also see that even keel aspect, being indifferent, the power of it. I mean, think about how much time whenever you are like super happy about something going right or super upset about something going wrong, you're ultimately you're being distracted from keeping on keeping on oh yeah and then you go back to eventually get back to that middle again which is the baseline anyway and so i guess what stoics are doing is staying on that that baseline and not being distracted so they can get further along faster or at a more steady pace yeah i mean there's definitely something that's really frustrating in life, which is when you look back and say, man, I've spent two days stressed and worried about something that I have no control over.

56:22Right. And what a waste of time that was when I could have done X, Y, and Z. One of the big questions I have, it's not necessarily a criticism. I guess it depends on what the answer would be. But my one, my big question for stoicism, since it's so, um, it places so much emphasis on the individual and self-exploration and introspection. How would a Stoic suggest enacting massive social change where something, some ill is happening to some large group of people, but nothing's going to change unless you go out of your own personal sphere and work to make others change? Right. How do you do that? Do you just say, well, whatever, it's God's will that these people suffer and be put down by the majority forever?

57:13Or is there some way that that can be addressed through the stoic philosophy? I'm very curious. So anybody who knows that, write in, please. Yeah, maybe that's why it appeals to Silicon Valley. Right. Well, that's the other thing too, right? So it also very much smacks when you hear of it from wealthy people espousing it to anybody. And it smacks of that whole aspect of Christianity where, hey, medieval peasant, you know how your life is terrible and you're going to live to 35 and all you do is work all the time and you give most of the spoils of your effort to your king? Well, there's such thing as Christianity and your treasure is in the afterlife.

57:57So don't worry about this life. Yeah. It smacks of the same thing where you can keep a population placated and not searching for larger social change by saying, hey, just focus on these four things and everything else is just, it just happens and you don't need to get worked up about it at all. It seems like a bit of a pacifier too. Yeah. Depending on how you look at it. It's fascinating. Are we done with stoicism? I'm finished with it. Okay. I think that was a good overview I think so too it's a good thought starter if you want to know more about stoicism bud there's a lot more out there than this just dive in and see what it means to you and again it's a buffet take what you like leave what you don't want leave the curdled pudding behind take the perfectly garlic green beans yum what else did I already say that one part Oh, since I said green beans, it's time for listener mail.

59:02I'm going to call this Beagle Brigade slash Police Dogs. People love that one. Man, who doesn't love beetles? Beagles on brigade, on parade. No one. Even people who get busted with whole pigs still are like, that beagle's adorable. So this dude, Eric Stover, is a sandwicher, meaning he follows our advice, which is to listen to the newest episode as well as whatever from our back catalog he chooses to. Yeah. He's doing it right. Yes and good. Hey guys, I work in the sports and entertainment business in New York and after 9-11 the use of bomb sniffing dogs mostly German Shepherds became standard operating procedure for all events.

59:42A few hours prior to a concert one night the canine units were sweeping all the backstage areas and one of the bomb dogs hit on an employee locker. As you can imagine it caused an immediate and serious response. Once a bomb squad was dispatched and that portion of the arena was evacuated, plans were even made to cancel the show. He doesn't say what show, which I was very curious about. I'm going to say three doors down. Okay. After some very tense moments, the police officers opened the locker. Those guys are super brave. Thankfully, they didn't find a bomb, but did find drugs. An employee must have brought in an extra bump for the show.

1:00:19Oh, man, it was definitely three doors down. You might be asking yourself, no, this wasn't the band's green room. This was an employee. Oh, no, I know. Three Doors Down's fans are among the most drug-addled of all music fans. Are they? Sure. I thought that was the Juggalos. No, they put the Juggalos to shame. Juggalos take time off once in a while, you know what I mean? Yeah, that's true. You might be asking yourself, how does a bomb dog find drugs? As it turns out, the dog had failed out of drug school and was retrained as a bomb dog. Poor guy. That's hilarious. Isn't it? Poor guy. Which one?

1:01:04The dog or the guy who just happened to run across the failed drug dog? I guess everyone. Who still remembered something. There are no winners here. I guess he didn't completely forget his drug training, though, and he set off a chain of events that scared the crap out of us. The story ends with the employee getting arrested. The show went on, and the fans, none the wiser. My guess is the dog was reassigned to crowd control. Just barking up people. Get back in line. Thanks for everything you guys do. Please let me know if you ever need anything in New York City. Is that a hint? We don't do drugs, Eric.

1:01:38Yeah. We're terrified of dogs. That is Eric Stover in New York, and I guess he's still in the sports and entertainment business. Yeah. He's like, you need some sports? Come see me. I could use some sports. Thanks, Eric. That's a pretty great story. Right? That's right. If you want to get in touch with us like Eric did, you can send us an email to stuffpodcast at iheartradio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

1:02:23Hey, it's Joel and Matt from HowToMoney. If your New Year's resolution is to finally get your finances in shape, we've got your back. Prices, they're still high, and the economy is all over the place. But 2026 is the year for you to get intentional and make real progress. That's right. Each week, we break down what's happening with your money, the most important issues to focus on, and the small moves that make a big difference. Kick off the year with confidence, listen to How to Money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm John Polk. For years, I was the poster boy of the conversion therapy movement, the ex-gay who married an ex-lesbian and traveled the world telling my story of how I changed my sexuality from gay to straight.

1:03:09You might have heard my story, but you've never heard the real story. John has never been anything but gay. but he really tried hard not to be. Listen to Atonement, the John Palk story on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Dr. Priyanka Wally. And I'm Hari Kondabolu. It's a new year and on the podcast Health Stuff we're resetting the way we talk about our health. Which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know and how messy it can all be. I like to sleep in late and sleep early. is there a chronotype for that or am I just depressed? Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone.

1:03:52Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.