Selects: What Were the BONE WARS?

26:53We just want to connect with each other. Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey there, this is Dr. Jesse Mills, director of the Men's Clinic at UCLA Health and host of the Mailroom Podcast. Each January, guys everywhere make the same resolutions. Get stronger, work harder, fix what's broken. But what if the real work isn't physical at all? To kick off the new year, I sat down with Dr. Steve Poulter, a psychologist with over 30 years' experience helping men unpack shame, anxiety, and emotional pain they were never taught to name.

27:32In a powerful two-part conversation, we discuss why men aren't emotionally bulletproof, why shame hides in plain sight, and how real strength comes from listening to yourself and to others. Guys who are toxic, they're immature, or they've got something they just haven't resolved. Once that gets resolved, then there comes empathy and some compassion. If you want this to be the year you stop powering through pain and start understanding what's underneath, listen to The Mailroom on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

28:15All right, so Marsh has really screwed his friend over. Yeah, I mean— Went behind his back, paid off dudes to send him stuff. But according to Marsh, he's like, that's not why we weren't friends anymore. That was not what really killed our friendship at all. Here's what happened. And later on that year, Cope published a paper establishing this new species, Elasmosaurus platerius. Nice. Thank you. Marsh goes to the Academy of Natural Sciences in Philly to check this thing out because they're still sort of friends at this point. Right. And Cope's showing off his things like, look at this thing. I put this thing back together and look at this skeleton.

28:58It's amazing. and said, my friend, it appears you have fallen into the classic paleontology trap and mounted the head on the butt. Yep. And this was a humiliating thing for Cope. Sure. So much so that he realized, oh, God, I just wrote a paper describing this thing with its head on the wrong end in the American Philosophical Society's journal and ran out and tried to buy as many of these copies as he could just to cover up his mistake. And the way that Marsh put it later, because he ran around telling everybody he could about this gap. He was very glib about it. Oh, very, very. Like he just wanted to make sure that everybody knew that Cope had screwed up, right?

29:48Whereas he characterized the story, he characterized himself in the story as just having gently pointed this out. He basically said that Cope's vanity was wounded, or his wounded vanity received a shock from which it has never recovered. Basically saying, like, not only did he get it wrong, when I gently pointed this out, this guy just flipped out and he still hasn't forgiven me. So that's what happened to our friendship. Never mind the whole going behind his back thing at Haddonfield. This is really what happened. But the thing is, that story isn't even correct. It's just like a sliver of the fuller picture.

30:22because the fuller picture involves Joseph Leidy, who, again, remember, was working at the Academy of Natural Sciences in Philadelphia where this skeleton was in the first place. That's right. So what apparently really happened is Marsh comes in and just says, oh, actually, the neck vertebrae is in the wrong position. That got everyone over there looking, and Leidy is the one who actually said, oh, no, you have the head in the wrong place where the tail is. And to fully paint a picture here, this wasn't like some huge big deal. Like mistakes, it was very early on in paleontology. Everyone was doing their best.

31:02There was a lot of trial and error going on, a lot of guesswork. And it wasn't like, oh, my gosh, you know, it's not like someone today drawing the head of a bear mounted on his butt. They were doing the best they could, and it wasn't like some huge error. Right. No, and it is true from what I understand that Cope did run around trying to buy the copies of the American Philosophical Society journal that had the incorrect part in it. And he was humiliated, especially the fact that Marsh was involved. But it definitely wasn't Marsh running to the rescue to save paleontology and Cope just being a wuss overall.

31:41It was definitely an incorrect picture that Marsh painted. But regardless of how it's painted or what actually happened, that two-prong attack on the friendship, both of them perpetrated by Marsh, frankly, if you ask me, that ended their friendship. Like their friendliness was basically out the door. There's some evidence that in the following couple of years when they wrote to one another, they would kind of jokingly reference some of the stuff in the past. But even that eventually dried up, and they genuinely became bitter, bitter rivals, made all the more pronounced when the West was opened up by the Transcontinental Railroad.

32:22Because all of a sudden, you had said earlier that the fossil fields in the East, well, the conditions of climate and geology in the East were not conducive to preserving dinosaur bones. The exact opposite is true of the Western United States. and when the west opened up it was like come on in paleontology the the timing of the two is just astoundingly perfect yeah i mean we're talking about the dakotas kansas um just bones everywhere and not even too hard to find a lot of times yeah uh i mean if you were a paleontologist and you headed west if you had some protection because this is uh despite all our efforts that was still sort of a dangerous area for a white man from the east to be traveling around.

33:10The Native American tribes there and the Western tribes did not take kindly to a lot of it. No, because think about it. Like they went from, you know, wagon trains of settlers coming through periodically to trains daily moving people in and out. So it was a big deal to the Western tribes who were fighting back and pushing back against this encroachment and wave that was coming much more strongly than it had been before the railroad, too. Yeah, for sure. So from this point on, the guys took very sort of different, I guess, were forced to take different approaches to their careers. Cope basically spent the rest of his life as a working paleontologist, like feet on the ground for the most part.

33:52He didn't work at a college. He didn't work at a museum until much, much later. He was not, like, taken care of or funded by the government. So he paid for all the, you know, he came from a wealthy family, so he paid for most of this stuff himself, sold his farm, his, you know, family Quaker farm, and got a big fat inheritance and started going west and started amassing this big collection that was actually his, which was a really big deal because since no one was contributing to his financial burdens, He, I guess, technically owned this stuff. Right. He owned it fair and square. I mean, he'd financed his own expeditions.

34:32He paid for the shipping and transportation of these things, which is another thing the railroad helped. It not only opened the West, it helped ship enormous bones back east to the museums. But he was paying for this. So, yeah, his collection was his own. Marsh, on the other hand, being ensconced in Yale, he was able to rely on Yale, Yale families, the government contacts that Yale had to finance the expeditions that he went on. So in his mind, it was his collection. But technically, it really wasn't because he hadn't financed any of it himself. It had all been financed by others. The thing about Marsh, though, Chuck, is that he was the first one to make it out west.

35:14And because he was the first one there, he basically considered the entire western United States his turf. and everyone else was encroaching on it, which is awfully rich if you can remember what he did to Cope back at Haddonfield. And, you know, back then there wasn't any kind of ownership on any fossils, but now that he's the first one out west, there is such a thing and they all belong to him. For sure. So Cope, you know, when it comes to academics, they also were really, really different in how they approach things. We kind of teased earlier about how much Cope wrote and published, and boy, it's astounding.

35:50It seems like he published throughout his career about 1 ,400 academic papers. In the 1870s, he was doing about 25 papers a year. And in one winter alone of 1879 and 1880, he published 76 papers. Very prolific to the point where it was pretty easy for someone like Marsh to poke holes and kind of say that he was either copying people or plagiarizing people or just outright fraudulent and that no one can write this much stuff. It also presented a problem in that Cope, he was publishing so much that he had a hard time getting stuff published after a while because there weren't a ton of scientific journals, and they can't be like, listen, man, we can't publish like 10 things a month from you or a quarter because we'll just call this thing the Cope Journal.

36:45And he said, that's a great idea. So in 1877, he bought the American Naturalist Journal for himself to publish all his own works, which ended up being a really, I don't know about bad choice, but financially it is what really put the biggest dent in his future fortunes was sinking a ton of his own money into this American Naturalist Journal. Oh, is that right? I thought it was the silver mine. The journal set him up for it. Oh, yeah. The silver mine was a last-ditch effort to try and make a little bit of money. Uh-huh. Because he was almost broke by that point. So he—but he does have this forum now, whether it was a good business opportunity or not.

37:27He has a forum to publish in. And like you were saying, he wrote just so many papers. Not only was it just too many for the journals to keep up with, there were also a lot of questions from these journals like, Like, wait a minute, if you're like a deliberate, thoughtful scientist, you shouldn't be able to publish this much. And one of the problems of the Bone Wars, the rivalry between Cope and Marsh, that really kind of got both of them to be the first to rush to name a species or make some new discovery so that the other one couldn't, is that there was a lot of sloppy work that came out of it.

38:03And when there's a lot of sloppy taxonomical work where the same species is getting different names from different people at the same time, that takes a lot to entangle. And apparently it took paleontology many decades to kind of undo some of the sloppy work that was kind of laid at the foundation of the field in the 1870s. Yeah, and especially at Cope's feet. because for his part, Marsh was very much more methodical, did not publish nearly as many papers. But along with that comes a lot more prestige. No one was going to talk about Marsh and say that he's publishing too much, he's doing sloppy work.

38:44So as a result, they were published in some really prestigious journals over the years, kind of almost exclusively. And he had, like you said, Yale behind him, So he would take students a lot of times to make them pay their own way because this is all a very expensive endeavor for the time. You know, Cope was sort of creative in how he would fund some of this. Like he would latch on to other Western expeditions that had nothing to do with paleontology. There was one called the Wheeler Survey, which was a mapping expedition that he was able to hook up with. So he would cut corners and save where he could.

39:19but with the power of Yale University behind him and these students who would pay their own way, Marsh had a real advantage when it came to staking his claim out west. Right. And also there was one of the first expeditions he went on was funded by the families of some Yale students. So it was some, you know, Yale students and Marsh basically playing cowboy out west. And the first, I guess the first day once they arrived out west where they were going to dig, Buffalo Bill Cody shows up, basically kind of like as a guest star to appear and just delight and thrill the Yale boys, one of whom wrote about the whole expedition and the whole thing got published in Harper's.

40:01So the whole thing kind of demonstrates that Marsh, as much as he's kind of seen as like this meek, deliberate scientist, was also really good at self-promotion, too. Oh, for sure. He would wear a gun. I think he sort of fashioned himself as a Teddy Roosevelt type or maybe a Buffalo Bill type. And, yeah, he would toot his own horn for sure. For his part, Cope, after his father passed away, spent less and less time out west in the actual field, more time in Philadelphia. And he would hire guys out. And in fact, Marsh would later go on to do a very similar thing where they would have their diggers out there excavating and then sending bones back to the East Coast where they could do their dig in and do their studying there.

40:48Right. And it's out West that the famous Bone Wars really started to take place. But like you were saying, neither Marsh nor Cope were there. But what was going on out West, all the dirty deeds and all that stuff were at the direction and behest of these two. So you want to take another break and then get into what the Bone Wars are really all about? Yeah. Okay. We'll be right back.

41:23New year, new goals, and in this economy, a better money plan is more necessary than ever. I am Matt. And I'm Joel. We are from the How to Money podcast, and every week we help you to spend smarter, save more, and make sense of what's going on out there. If you want 2026 to be the year you finally feel in control of your money, we're here to give you the tools and advice to help you make it happen. Listen to How to Money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Dr. Priyanka Wally. And I'm Hari Kondabolu. It's a new year, and on the podcast Health Stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health.

41:59Which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be. I like to sleep in late and sleep early. Is there a chronotype for that or am I just depressed? We talk to experts who share real experiences and insight. You just really need to find where it is that you can have an impact in your own life and just start doing that. We break down the topics you want to know more about. Sleep, stress, mental health, and how the world around us affects our overall health. We talk about all the ways to keep your body and mind, inside and out, healthy. We human beings, all we want is connection.

42:37We just want to connect with each other. Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey there, this is Dr. Jesse Mills, director of the Men's Clinic at UCLA Health and host of the Mailroom Podcast. Each January, guys everywhere make the same resolutions. Get stronger, work harder, fix what's broken. But what if the real work isn't physical at all? To kick off the new year, I sat down with Dr. Steve Poulter, a psychologist with over 30 years experience helping men unpack shame, anxiety, and emotional pain they were never taught to name.

43:16In a powerful two-part conversation, we discuss why men aren't emotionally bulletproof, why shame hides in plain sight, and how real strength comes from listening to yourself and to others. Guys who are toxic, they're immature, or they've got something they just haven't resolved. Once that gets resolved, then there comes empathy as in compassion. If you want this to be the year you stop powering through pain and start understanding what's underneath, listen to The Mailroom on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

43:59All right, Chuck, so the 1870s roll around. The West has opened up from the Transcontinental Railroad. It's giving up its fossils. It's just crazy how well-preserved fossils are out there because of heat and dryness and wind erosion exposes them. And there was a part of that American Experience documentary where they showed a picture of like just this landscape that you could see from the train. And they said that some expedition was riding by and figured that they were riding by just a rock outcropping. and they realized there was just a field covered in dinosaur bones. It wasn't rocks, it was bones.

44:43That's how many bones there were out west. So the west is starting to yield this stuff and just one place would become like a treasure trove and another place would become a treasure trove. And each of these places, some prospector would find a big bone and the first thing they would think of was, I need to either get in touch with Cope or Marsh because these guys are going to want to know about this and they'll probably pay big bucks for it. And that's really once they stopped mounting their own expeditions, that's how they got most of their bones is from amateurs getting in touch with them. Yeah.

45:16So this, you know, this would open the door for these guys to really kind of get underhanded. They would hire guys away from each other. They would pay for information about the other person's digs and the bones that they were getting. They would outbid one another. And like, you know, eventually, like I said, both of these guys would end up pretty much financially ruined in the end. There were reports of sabotage, of theft. There were reports of dynamiting the other persons like digs in their camps. Well, one thing I saw, listen to this. Marsh ordered that if his men couldn't get bones out of like a find, like they just couldn't get it out, he said smash them.

45:56Do not leave them because I don't want Cope to possibly be able to get them himself. Not only that, but the bones that they would, like smaller finds that they would dig up that they didn't think were as important, they would smash. So the other person wouldn't have anything to do with them. Yeah. So they were smashing the fossils that they sought for science because of their rivalry. That's the insane degree that it reached. Yeah. Yeah, and, you know, it's easy now to—and I'm wondering if this—like how much they had to trump this up for a movie script because it seems like some of this is exaggerated.

46:31I don't know if they found actual evidence that they would dynamite each other's camps. It seems like the most they would do is, like, you know, push dirt back onto the things that they had dug up and not, you know, again, they're lackeys out there doing this stuff. Right. And, you know, these guys, this was all kind of perpetrated by Marsh and Cope themselves. They would kind of trump up these stories in the press and things to kind of make the other one look bad. So while there were bone wars going on, I'm not sure it was quite as, like, exciting as they're made out to be. Well, there weren't, like, shootouts or anything like that.

47:07But, I mean, just the fact that these two paleontologists are trying to sabotage one another's career is kind of hilarious in and of itself, you know? Yeah, I mean, and it could have, you know, the fact that these guys were driving each other. It's like this is the lens we look at it through now. It's like did this hurt the field of paleontology or help it? And you can kind of look at it from two angles. On one hand, what if they would have worked together and pooled their resources? Maybe they could have found a lot more and gotten a lot more things straight. They didn't have to untangle later.

47:38Or maybe because they were so competitive and drove each other to work harder, maybe they were uncovering things because of that, because they uncovered a lot of stuff. Like, they were both super prolific together. I think between the two of them, they accounted for 126 new species of dinosaur, and that's just dinosaur. Yeah, and again, this is at a time where you could, like, stub your toe and look down, and you just discovered a new species of dinosaur because so little work had been done in the field. But yeah, they definitely did drive one another to work harder and faster and try to outdo one another.

48:16And one of the big benefits that the field saw that you can point to in retrospect and even at the time was that winter of 1877 that I was talking about. This is like winter in Wyoming. It's not a very welcoming climate. and yet both Marsh and Cope hired their prospectors, their bone diggers, to continue working through the winter rather than taking a break like you traditionally would. You dug in the summer, wrote papers in the winter. They said, no, keep going. This is just too, the bones that are coming out of this place are too good and I don't want my rival to be the one to take them all out.

48:54So both kept working through the winter. And out of that one winter, we got Triceratops. Yeah. We got Apatosaurus, we got Stegosaurus, all from that one winter of 1877. And if you can't look back and say, yes, these guys drove one another to this level of discovery, I don't know what you can say. I just throw my hands up in disgust otherwise. Did that make sense? Sure. Okay. I mean, as a paleontologist, you could literally just say, you know the Triceratops? I discovered it. Yeah. And that could be it. That could be your career right there. Let alone the stegosaurus on top of the triceratops. Come on.

49:34Sure. And then apatosaurus, that may sound vaguely familiar, but here, let me drop one on you that you'll say, oh, you ready? Brontosaurus. Same thing, apparently. Yeah, I didn't even fully get, I mean, this gets into the weeds with like serious paleontology, pedantry and nerding out. But yeah, I say brontosaurus. Allow me to nerd out for just a second. The point of the apatosaurus brontosaurus being the same thing with different names is one of those things that's frequently laid at the feet of Marsh saying, this was sloppy work on Marsh's part. And maybe if he hadn't been competing with Cope, he would have done better work.

50:17That's probably not the case. But he named the same species two different things because he thought they were two different species. and a later paleontologist about 20, 30 years later came along and said, I think this is the same thing. Since they were called the Patosaurus first, that's what we're going to call this from now on. And so scientifically, Brontosaurus should have gone, I can't believe I'm about to say this, the way of the dinosaur. But somehow it got into the cultural zeitgeist and everybody said, no, we like saying Brontosaurus more. I blame the Simpsons or the Flintstones because of the brontosaurus burger thing.

50:55Who knows if that's the case or not? But that was supposedly the brontosaurus and the apatosaurus are the same thing, and really you're supposed to call them apatosaurs. There you have it, folks. Nerding out. So in the 1880s, this is after the big rush of the late 70s, things started to change a bit. So Marsh has got a couple of good jobs. He works at the U.S. Geological Survey. and is the president of the National Academy of Sciences. But financially, they're not doing so great on either side because, like we said earlier, they'd spend a lot of their own money trying to outdo one another. Right.

51:33So Marsh is in a way, way better position than Cope. This is actually at a point when Cope is kind of against the ropes. But rather than both of them just kind of going their own way, the dinosaur wars have kind of ebbed a little bit, and they can just kind of go off and work as paleontologists for the rest of their life, Marsh decides to come after Cope and deal him the death blow. The moment Marsh had a position of power that he could use against Cope, he abused his position immediately. He was very high up at the USGS, and he used that connection to freeze Cope out of any chance of getting any kind of government funding for any further expeditions.

52:15So Cope was basically penniless. Sorry, Chuck. because he had invested in that silver mine that he used the rest of his money for, basically. The silver mine went bust, so he lost all of his money. And now his greatest enemy and rival was in charge of the purse strings for government expeditions and had basically said, you're not getting a dime, Cope. So Cope was left with his collection and nothing else. That's bad enough. But then Marsh decided to take it one step further, and he introduced some laws into the USGS, I guess, bylaws that said, if a government program or agency has funded an expedition, any fossils collected from that expedition belong to the government.

53:01And he sent the USGS after Cope's collection. He tried to take Cope's collection, the only thing Cope had left. He didn't have his family anymore. He was living alone in like a tiny apartment surrounded by his collection. It was all he had left, and Marsh tried to take it from him. And actually, Marsh failed because Cope could prove that he had paid for most of it. That's right, and it was that collection that kind of funded the rest of his life. He would sell off parts of it here and there when he needed to make rent and stuff like that. He did get a job. In 1889, he was hired as professor of zoology at the University of Pennsylvania.

53:37So that's good. At least he had a little bit of an income. Sure. And it was they were dead to each other at this point, though. Spent a lifetime battling each other. Cope was just infuriated at the lengths Marsh would go. It was all just very petty at this point. And neither one of them come out looking great because of a career of sort of backstabbing each other. And they went to the press in the end. I think it was Cope. He had taken these copious notes over his life about all the grievances he had against Marsh over the years. And he went to the New York Herald. They published an article about this, but it ended up just making both of them look bad.

54:18It made Marsh look bad because of the things he did. Made Cope look kind of petty and angry about everything. And this is all kind of played out in public in the press. Right. And in this first article, when Cope went to the Herald, he accused not just Marsh of wrongdoing, but also the USGS of corruption. And that actually got the interest of Congress, who started investigating and ended up cutting the USGS's budget by like half. So Marsh ended up losing his job and his position as head paleontologist at the USGS. And in a beautiful, ironic twist, that law that he himself had inserted through the USGS that anybody whose collection had been financed by the US government could lose that collection meant that he actually lost his collection.

55:12The government came after his collection and took a substantial chunk of it for itself because it had financed so much of his expeditions. So it ended up turning him and biting him in his own rear, and he lost a lot of his collection, which really burned. So Cope died first. He died in 1897 at the age of 56, but not before he would issue a challenge to Marsh, which is, I'm leaving my body and my brain to science, and I bet you my brain's bigger than your brain. Marsh never took the bait. He died in 1889 of pneumonia at the age of 68. And by all accounts did not take part in this brain measuring competition.

55:55This posthumous competition in the grave, which I think is kind of funny. But that brain, I think Cope's brain is still under the ownership of the University of Pennsylvania today. It still wanders the halls at night. Amazing. Ghostly brain. That's the surprise ending to this one. That's right. And I guess in the end, Marsh is credited with 80 species to Cope's 56. Which is not bad. Plus, also, Cope has that 1 ,400 papers under his belt, too. That's a lot of papers. You got anything else about the Bone Wars? Nope. Well, that's it, everybody. I think there's a Drunk History episode about this. I never saw it, but it looks pretty good.

56:39I would recommend the American Experience episode on it and just go read up more on it because it's pretty interesting stuff. And since I said it a bunch of times just now, it's time for Listener Mail. All right, I'm going to call this Civil Air Patrol. This is from Jackson Sherbalati. Can I ask you a question? Yes, sir. There was a big influx of Civil Air Patrol emails out of nowhere. Did you notice? I did not. Yeah, we got like a handful of them just out of the blue, and I didn't know if something happened or what, but I guess it's making the round somehow. Who knows? Maybe we're on the Civil Air Patrol...

57:19Watch list? ...weblog. There you go. So, from Jackson, he says, I have been a listener for about seven years since I was 10 years old. Anyway, I'm a senior master sergeant in the Civil Air Patrol, and I've been in it for about two and a half years. I was really excited you guys finally did a podcast on us. as not a ton of people even know he exists. Some say we are the Air Force's best-kept secret. I don't know about that. I think Area 51 might have something on you guys. It is nice to get some publicity like that, though. You guys totally nailed it. Did an awesome job, like always. Being a cadet in the program, I'd like to hear more about that part.

57:58Maybe you could do a short stuff on it someday. Cadet life is more of a training life than an actually doing the stuff, like learning how to lead effectively and all that jazz. We also have a lot of mini boot camp things that we go to further our learning. Anyway, you did an outstanding job, and I would appreciate it if you could give a shout-out to my squadron, the Green Mountain Composite Squadron. That's not bad. Not a bad name. Green Mountain Composite Squadron sounds like a wholesale furniture material. I was going to say it sounds like a sort of a modern bluegrass band. Oh, that's a good one, too.

58:40Yeah, like there's a lot of synth involved. Sure. Okay. Synth and mandolin. Okay. And that was from Jackson? That's right. Jackson. Is he the front man for this bluegrass band? Of course. All right. Well, thanks a lot for writing in, Jackson. Hopefully we've fulfilled all of your requests. And if we didn't, TS for you. If you want to get in touch with us like Jackson did, you can go on to stuffyoushouldknow.com and check out our social links. Or you can send us a good old-fashioned email. Wrap it up, spank it on the bottom, and send it off to stuffpodcast at iheartradio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

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59:34Hey, it's Joel and Matt from HowToMoney. If your New Year's resolution is to finally get your finances in shape, we've got your back. Prices, they're still high, and the economy is all over the place. But 2026 is the year for you to get intentional and make real progress. That's right. Each week, we break down what's happening with your money, the most important issues to focus on, and the small moves that make a big difference. Kick off the year with confidence. Listen to How to Money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm John Polk. For years, I was the poster boy of the conversion therapy movement, the ex-gay who married an ex-lesbian and traveled the world telling my story of how I changed my sexuality from gay to straight.

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