Sherlock Holmes: The Man, The Myth

27:19It's like, it's really good. Yeah, and they're like, we'll give you 25 pounds for it. It was about, I think, 200 pounds today, maybe? I'm not sure. I did the conversion, but I can't read my own handwriting. And they were the ones who published that Breton's Christmas annual. So that's where it first popped up. But after it started to get more and more popular when they appeared in Strand Magazine, he started to be able to command a little more money. So he sold a dozen to Strand Magazine for a thousand pounds, which today would be about 110 ,000 pounds or 150 ,000 U.S. dollars. And there's a thing that that he's fairly well known for.

27:55He wrote the Sherlock Holmes stories eventually almost against his will for money. He considered himself a much better writer than a writer of pulp crime fiction. Yeah. And he wrote the Sherlock Holmes stories because he essentially needed money all the time, even though he was making gobs of it. Yeah. I mean, it seemed like it's not I don't think he like hated his legacy, but it definitely seemed like everything I read, he was like, you know, I'm writing these other books, too. And all everyone cares about are these Sherlock Holmes books. Right. I mean, this is a little fun fact. He wrote the original book, The Lost World, which is also a film in 1925.

28:40And Michael Crichton directly paid homage with his own novel, The Lost World. And it's basically, I mean, it's not the same plot, but it deals with people going to a place in South America where there are prehistoric, you know, animals living. Yes. And Arthur Conan Doyle was the first person who wrote, hang on to your butts. Well, apparently Crichton was inspired to bring back Malcolm. I think he killed off Malcolm and brought him back to life. Oh, yeah. And that was also, and I don't know if it was an homage, but more of like, well, hey, Doyle did it with Holmes, so I can do it with Malcolm. Right, exactly.

29:16Yeah. Yeah, Doyle tried to kill off Sherlock Holmes at one point, unsuccessfully, it turned out. And the reason why he had a quote, he said that I've had such an overdose of Holmes that I feel towards him as I do toward pate de foie gras, of which I once ate too much so that the name of it gives me a sickly feeling to this day. That's how that's how I was just sick of Sherlock Holmes. He was that it was like eating too much foie gras, which I can imagine is not a very comfortable sensation. I'll have none of it. Thank you. One thing we talked about Doyle before in other podcasts, I think, when we did episodes on like spiritualism and seances and things, that was kind of one of his, aside from writing these books, he was very well known for being into spiritualism.

30:02After his son died in 1918, he would go to seances and try to, you know, make contact with his son, which is super sad to think about. I know that we definitely talked about them when we mentioned the photograph that supposedly showed real fairies from Elsie Wright, girls Elsie Wright and Francis Griffiths. And Doyle famously was like, no, this is totally real, everybody. Yeah, the Cottingham fairies. Remember we built a whole episode around the one thing that should have just been the short stuff? Yeah. We've done that before. Yeah. So it was really surprising and shocking to Doyle's friends, his fans.

30:39Like, this is the opposite of what Sherlock Holmes would do, you know, get into spiritualism. But he was tenacious. Like, he was a true believer. And he was friends with Harry Houdini. And they were an odd pair because Houdini was a voracious skeptic. He couldn't stand mediums. He liked to unmask mediums. And Conan Doyle would support them by going to them. And he, Conan Doyle, thought Houdini had supernatural powers, despite Houdini saying, like, no, these are all tricks. Yeah. Like, I'm just doing these. I'm not going to tell you how I did it, but these are tricks. Please believe me. And Doyle would be like, yeah, I can read between the lines.

31:16You have supernatural power. Did you just wink at me? Right, exactly. It's like Costanza. Yeah, but he was just, he was just, yeah, that was a great one. But he was just, it was just his thing. He could not be persuaded out of believing in spiritualism. uh there's also been a lot of you know um ideas over his history about who like who he was based on was there a real sherlock holmes um the name itself comes from uh american dr oliver wendell holmes uh because again doyle was a um trained as a doctor so i guess that was just an homage on his part uh there's a historian named angela buckley that claims there was a victorian police officer named Jerome Caminata that inspired him.

32:02But Doyle himself says, no, the inspiration was a guy that taught me in medical school. He was my third year instructor of clinical surgery. His name was Dr. Joseph Bell. And he had this sort of party trick that he would do in lectures and stuff where he would sort of demonstrate, I almost said Doyle, homes-like qualities of deducing things from little mundane details about somebody. Yeah, like where someone had been, whether they were a sailor, if they smoked, apparently very famously, he once said, Madam, I would ask you to reveal your pipe. And everyone gasped as this old lady showed her pipe and that was clearly the root of her problem.

32:48And he just deduced it from a lower lip ulcer and a little scar on her cheek. He could do that with everybody. So that part of Holmes is definitely from Joseph Bell. I mean, like you said, he said as much. But Angela Buckley has a pretty good claim that Jerome Caminata inspired him, too. If you look into Caminata, he would use disguises. He was doing police work that now today is just part of police work. At the time, he was the only one on the Manchester force who was doing this stuff. So it was probably an amalgamation of a bunch of different people, all combined with Doyle's command of science, cutting-edge science at the time.

33:25Yeah, so, I mean, on that note, we've talked about how he was using all of these sort of modern things to inspire the stories. It actually happened the other way as well, which is super cool. Like, there were real investigators that were doing things that they found that Holmes did in the novels. And, I mean, that's super cool. It wasn't, they knew that there was sound science behind it. So I think there was a French criminologist named Edmund Locard who basically was like, yeah, I do a lot of the stuff that Sherlock Holmes does in his books because it's super smart and a good way to catch somebody.

34:02Yeah, and there's also this instance of life imitating art that showed up in the story, The Problem of Thor Bridge. And in the story, I guess the victim takes their own life by shooting themselves with a gun that's tied to a rock with a short rope. And they shoot themselves on a bridge over a waterway so that as they fall to the ground, the gun is pulled down into the water. And it looks like it was a homicide so their family can collect insurance. Well, there's no less than two people out there who seem to have been directly inspired by the story in real life did the same thing. And it turns out that it gets even more twisted because Arthur Conan Doyle probably got his idea for the problem of Thorbridge from a case that was written about by Austrian criminologist Hans Gross in 1893 where this thing actually happened.

34:59So you have a case of life imitating art imitating life. Yeah, well, and Gross is another one of those who was, like, picking up stuff from the novels to use in everyday work. Like you mentioned dust, like gathering dust in packets. And Locard was telling, like, the policeman on his staff, like, hey, you guys should read these books. Yeah, like, Arthur Conan Doyle's character, Sherlock Holmes, was the first to basically say we need to not contaminate crime scenes. They need to be preserved as they are when we come upon them. This is before cops were even doing that. Like cutting edge cops were even doing it.

35:34Like he was just laying down some amazing stuff. Should we take another break? After me saying something like he was laying down some amazing stuff, I feel like it's, yeah, we need to. All right, we'll be right back.

35:55Hi, I'm Dr. Priyanka Wally. And I'm Hurricane Dabolu. It's a new year. And on the podcast Health Stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health. Which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be. I like to sleep in late and sleep early. Is there a chronotype for that or am I just depressed? We talk to experts who share real experiences and insight. You just really need to find where it is that you can have an impact in your own life and just start doing that. We break down the topics you want to know more about. Sleep, stress, mental health, and how the world around us affects our overall health.

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38:33so we're back chuck and um even conan doyle was surprised by how popular his character was and he couldn't quite figure out why he he just assumed it was a distraction from everyday life other people have said probably also has a lot to do with the short story form um the fact that they pretty like action starts taking place pretty quickly but at the same time a lot of the um stories start out with watson and sherlock holmes hanging out in their sitting room and there's like a fire burning or it's just like like conan doyle adds just enough detail here there to really kind of make it engrossing but then it takes off and like we said it follows that formula.

39:17So there's a comforting familiarity to the whole thing that a lot of people make point to is like, this is why it's endured for so long. Yeah. Like a cozy quality. Yes. Cozy mystery kind of thing. But then it branches out into the world of Victorian London. So like you said, he was surprised because I'm not only surprised that like, hey, people are really liking this. But that just wasn't a thing there. That kind of fandom wasn't a thing. It was probably the first time that there were groups of people getting together and like talking about this stuff and forming like fan groups um maybe the first fan fiction uh as it turns out uh j.m barry who was a contemporary um obviously the the creator of peter pan um in 1891 anonymously wrote my evening with sherlock holmes which is sort of the first fanfic perhaps yeah um and that was kind of a good example of how he changed fandom or created fandom where readers stopped just kind of passively consuming stuff and started being like, there's a parasocial exchange going on here.

40:25Like, we own you. You belong to us. Give us more. You know what George R. R. Martin went through when he hadn't finished that last book. Like, that was essentially Arthur Conan Doyle's fault. Yeah. And like you said earlier, when he tried to kill, well, not tried, when he killed them off uh there was a revolt uh there were 20 ,000 strand subscribers who canceled their subscriptions they would write these you know hateful angry letters uh of the of the time it wouldn't be like the hateful angry letter you would get today no uh i think one of them started with you brute which is you know that's pretty pretty tough language for back then for sure uh and then so he he needed money and so he was like all right i guess i need to write another one of these things so uh he published uh the hound of the baskervilles which was uh sort of a prequel it wasn't bringing him back from the dead just yet it was holmes before he died um he finally resurrected him in uh the adventure of the empty house in 1903 and just said he he faked his death yeah and everybody was like fine we don't care i'm glad you brought him back he could have said it was magic and they would have been like, okay, fine.

41:37Yeah. But he came back with just a classic right off the cuff. The Hound of the Baskervilles is probably the most well-known Sherlock Holmes case. And it's just a really well-written book and it's been adapted into movie after movie after movie apparently. More than 20 of them, I think. Oh, really? I'm surprised it's actually not more. There was one called Der Hund von Baskerville and that was a favorite of Hitler's. He's now made two appearances in the Sherlock Holmes episode. Did not expect that. But part of this whole thing that we kind of, I mentioned Doyleyan interpretation earlier. There's this thing that's a part of being a Sherlock Holmes fan.

42:16Again, in North America, they're called Sherlockians. In the UK, they're called Holmesians. And if you're a Sherlock Holmes fan, there's a really good chance that you treat this whole thing as if these are real accounts of real life historical happenings that are the cases of a real-life detective named Sherlock Holmes, and that these were written by a real-life doctor and friend to Holmes, John Watson, and that Arthur Conan Doyle was Watson's literary agent, and that it just goes from there. And it's really important to remember, you don't just completely take leave of your senses when you become a Sherlock Holmes fan.

42:56This is all tongue-in-cheek. It's all whimsical. but the way that they treat it is very serious. And they use like actual like literary analysis and genealogy and all this stuff to basically tease out as much information as they can about the real life Holmes and real life Watson. And they call the whole thing the grand game. And it's definitely a cornerstone of being a Sherlock Holmes fan. Yeah, it's super cool. And I think the sort of origins of that were in 1911 when a guy named Ronald Knox wrote a spoof textual analysis. Uh, and he would, you know, that's where it became, he would say things like sacred writings and that's when the official canon was born.

43:36And, uh, like you said, that lives on the day with the grand game and, uh, specifically the, the biggest group. I mean, there's, there's plenty of groups. There's no shortage. I'm sure there's one in your town. Uh, unless, you know, you live in like the tiniest town imaginable. There's probably a Sherlock Holmes group there you get, get together with. But the most famous one is called the Baker Street Irregulars out of New York. It is an invitation only group. It was founded in 1934. And it seems like, you know, it's pretty hard to get in. Isaac Asimov was in. FDR was in there. I believe the one in England is called the Sherlock Holmes Society of London.

44:15Yeah. And they just, they get together. They dress up. They have some dinner. And they play the grand game, which sounds like a lot of fun, quite honestly. Yeah, I read an article, I could not find it for the life of me, where the author, the journalist was invited to one of these meetings and it just sounded so fun and so cool. But yeah, I think it's interesting that the American chapter is like the founding fan chapter, fan club of Sherlock Holmes, not the British one. And they actually are so essentially powerful that they actually grant official status to other chapters elsewhere. I found one called the Shaka Sherlockians of Hawaii.

44:58They were basically given official status by the Baker Street Irregulars. It's a great website. If you want to know more in a lot of detail about Sherlock Holmes, go check out Shaka Sherlockians. It's pretty fun. Well, we mentioned adaptations. There have been tons of them. I said there have been over 20 film or TV versions of The Hound of the Baskervilles specifically. The first one, and yes, you are correct, that was a stage version in 1899 from William Gillette where the line Elementary, my dear fellow, first came along. And, I mean, you name it, how many movies have there been total? Do we even know?

45:37I'm sure somebody knows. I think a lot. Yeah, I'm not. Yes. You bet your your sweet bippy that there's a Sherlockian out there who knows exactly how many movies there are. Yeah, I mean, I think depending on who you ask, taste differs, obviously. But The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes from 1970 from Billy Wilder is generally regarded as like one of the best adaptations. Even though it was a box office failure and it had a pretty troubled production, it just brought a little wit to it. Thanks to Billy Wilder, obviously, that hadn't been there before. And I think Wilder definitely hammered home the subtext that Holmes perhaps is gay.

46:19Yeah, he later said that he regretted not coming out and actually saying it. That was definitely his intent, but it's ambiguous in the movie. And just reading about the movie in and of itself is pretty interesting. But it's one of the reasons why it's so beloved by Sherlock fans is the attention to detail that's true to the canon is unparalleled. unparalleled like no one i don't think has ever really done it that well even though the actual like plot and everything that's going on the point is just so wildly outside of the canon it's a it's a weird amalgam of it yeah and that was robert stevens played holmes in that film um one of the more beloved uh performances was jeremy brett uh in the 84 through 94 granada television series I don't really know how people feel about the Guy Ritchie stuff.

47:12I haven't seen those movies or read much criticism. You haven't seen the movies? No, I've literally never seen any Sherlock Holmes thing or read any Sherlock Holmes thing. Wow. I don't know if the first one you should see is the Guy Ritchie versions, but they're really interesting interpretations of it. Like, they get in fights. Like, they throw fists and stuff. Like, Sherlock Holmes beats people up. It's really interesting. but it also is very true to the canon too. So I think a lot of people actually like it, like even Sherlockians. Right, maybe. You know what? I have seen something because I forgot.

47:48I have seen both of the Enola Holmes films. Okay, there you go. In which Enola Holmes is the 20-year younger sister of Sherlock. I believe she's like 14-ish in the movies and played by, what's her name? Millie Bobby Brown, 11 from Stranger Things. and we watched those with the family and Ruby and Emily and I all quite enjoyed those movies. Okay, so you liked those. I did like those, but Sherlock is very adjacent in those films. No, for sure. I'm just trying to think of what the first thing you should see is. I really don't think it should be the Guy Ritchie ones. Holmes and Watson? I don't know.

48:25Probably not. Despite the clip that I saw, it does seem to not be very well loved. Well, Cumberbatch, I like Cumberbatch. He did a modern one, right? Yeah, and actually, you mentioned that Billy Wilder kind of brought like a little bit of humor or comedy to it. That got carried on by Sherlock on BBC. That was Benedict Cumberbatch. I don't know. I can't really recommend what to go into. Hopefully some of our bigger Sherlockian fans can recommend where to start to you because you really should. You should at least see one thing, if not read one thing and just see what you think. I like Johnny Lee Miller and that elementary sounds interesting.

49:03Okay. Do you like Lucy Liu, too? Yeah, sure. She and that. There you go, my friend. You're going to love elementary, I think. Maybe I'll check out one of those. But, I mean, there's somebody in my head that I picture from a kid. Would that have been the TV show, the one I mentioned, is the most, like, beloved portrayal, maybe? Jeremy Brett, you weren't a kid in 1984. I wasn't a kid in 1984? No, you were nearly a grown man at age 14. I was 13, thank you. Oh, okay. That may be the one I'm thinking in my head, because I just, when I think in my mind of Sherlock Holmes as a TV portrayal or whatever, this one dude pops into my head, and I bet you that's who that is.

49:44Did you watch a lot of Masterpiece Theater as a 13-year-old? A little bit here and there. Well, maybe that is what it was, yeah. Supposedly, he is the one who did the best out of all of them. All right. Interestingly, though, Johnny Lee Miller was the one who's portrayed him the most with 154 episodes on that show Elementary. That was a little trivia for you. That's Modern Times set, right? Yes, that and Sherlock are both set in Modern Times. And if you go back to the actual stories, they're all set in Victorian England, even though he was writing them well outside of Victorian England by the time he wrapped them up.

50:22Well, this all brings up the sort of ending here is that can anyone just make this or do they have to pay for the rights or is it still in is it in the public domain? And the answer is it's been fairly complicated for a while now. I mean, up until recently, that is. Yeah, so his sons, one of their widows, producer, and someone else basically got together when Conan Doyle died in 1930. And they were like, mine, mine, mine, mine, mine. And they managed to gather up all the rights to all of the Sherlock Holmes writing, the character, everything, and consolidated it into Conan Doyle Estate Limited.

51:02And if you had anything that you wanted to do with Sherlock Holmes, you had to go through them and you had to pay them whatever they wanted, essentially. And they ruled Sherlock Holmes' intellectual property with an iron fist for almost a century. And they really got a bad reputation for it. But despite that, that just goes to show how popular Sherlock Holmes is. People kept dealing with him to make Sherlock Holmes movies, books, fan fiction, analysis, basically everything. Amazing. There was one pretty famous case where the movie 7 % Solution from the 70s, from 1974, from director Herbert Ross.

51:42Apparently, they thought it was in the public domain, and it wasn't. Man, what a surprise that would have been. Yeah, how do you, I don't know. I guess things were different back then in 74, but how does this studio not know that when they greenlight it? I don't know. That one was interesting, though. I looked it up. I was about to ask if you'd seen it, but I know the answer to that. apparently Sherlock Holmes' cocaine use spirals out of control and Watson sends him to Vienna to be cured by Sigmund Freud. Yeah. It's supposed to be pretty weird. Yeah. It's pretty interesting sounding though too.

52:11But they ended up making it. I think they just had to pay retroactively for it. Yeah. That's when they really got you over a barrel. Yeah, I know. But the copyright ran out finally, unambiguously, to all Sherlock Holmes stuff just this past 2023, I guess, right? Yeah, I think initially it ran out in the UK in 2000, and then it was 98 in the US. But there was a family argument that, like, no, he wrote these over a long period of time, over decades. So, like, the whole thing needs to go expire by the last story he wrote was their argument. Yeah, because he was so developed that, like, He was a flat character.

52:55And really the character of Sherlock Holmes that everybody portrays is the final ones that we own the copyright to. And I think a judge finally told them to go soak their heads, essentially. He said that their strategy was a form of extortion. So they finally lost it. I don't know what they're doing nowadays. Oh, I know what they're doing. They're essentially authenticating new stuff so you can get their blessing and make it like an official Sherlock Holmes mystery that you wrote. But that's why something like Will Ferrell and John C. Reilly's Holmes and Watson could come along, right? They could just do it all of a sudden?

53:29I think that was, I think they would have had to have paid for it because I think it was from like 2018. Okay, so even though, yeah, I guess the family won that argument then, huh? Yeah, I don't think they lost too many cases. I think it was quite near the end of the copyright. I gotcha. Yeah, so I'm sure that they had to pay for the use of that, and I'm sure they lost money on it. Well, I wonder now, I mean, I don't think so far we've seen any, like, abomination where they've, you know, like they make Mickey Mouse a serial killer and stuff now. Yeah. I'm curious to see if someone's going to do, like, a Sherlock Holmes thing where he's the baddie.

54:07Yeah, I'm sure some Stuff You Should Know listeners went, wow, that's a good idea, Chuck. Like, it's a really bad idea because people would be pretty angry, I would imagine. Yeah, you don't want to mess with something like that. He's good. Yeah, I mean, Will Ferrell's just now recovering. I want to give a couple of shouts out. First of all, Kyle, our writer Kyle, helped us out with this one. So if we got anything wrong, blame Kyle. And then also we heard from friend of the show, Richard Falwell, who wrote in when we first talked about doing a Sherlock Holmes episode on some other episode. And he's like, yes, do.

54:42And listen to Stephen Fry's Audible collection of all of the Sherlock Holmes canon works. Did you do that? Even if you don't do that, listen to Stephen Fry's like introductions to each of the collections. And I listened to one of them and he's right. They're amazing, just charming interpretations of what's going on in these and the way the effect that they had in real life. So you can go out and listen to that on Audible. that apparently it's 72 hours long. Oh, wow. Well, I mean, we can vouch and say that due to our select episodes on Saturdays, sometimes the intro is the best part. For sure. Oh, and one more thing I want to shout out.

55:23I guess you haven't seen this either. You have to see this. No matter what you think of whatever people tell you to watch or read, see Mr. Holmes eventually with Ian McKellen. Just the most art house of the Sherlock Holmes movies. It's so good, but it's about him retired as a beekeeper, which is part of the canon, too. I love Ian McKellen, so I'll check that out. Okay, but just put it off to the side. Don't make that the first one you see. Okay. I think that's it, Chuck. Great. Sherlock Holmes. I'm going to watch something. I promise everybody I'm going to watch something. Yeah, write in and let Chuck know what he should watch first.

56:00Or read something, even better. Yeah, same thing. All right. Okay, well, since Chuck said right, that means it's time for listener mail. Hey guys, on the Anaconda episode, you tried to work out how the heck green anacondas made it to Trinidad when the Caribbean island is separated from Venezuela by mere seven miles of ocean water. Well, guys, I'm from Trinidad, so maybe I can help. We can easily see Venezuela from certain parts of our country. And that's because Trinidad, unlike the other islands of the Caribbean, is not connected to the ocean floor. It actually rests on the submerged continental shelf that extends from the coastline of Venezuela into the Atlantic Ocean.

56:38All the other islands in the Caribbean archipelago are volcanic, reaching up from the seafloor, but not us. Ours is a continental island that was once part of the South American mainland. Essentially, there was a land bridge between Trinidad and Venezuela as recently as the last ice age. As such, our flora and fauna are pretty much identical to those found in Venezuela and even deeper into South America. And hence, anacondas, baby. They terrified my childhood because they are in a rainforest and big ones would come into town bordering the forest like where I lived. Anyway, I stopped the podcast midstream to quickly tell Josh in real time, your hypothesis was spot on.

57:20Thank you. I love emails like that. Warmest regards. And that is from Ravel. Thanks, Ravel. That was a great, great email. And we appreciate it. Thanks for clearing that up for us. If you want to be like Ravel, you can send us an email too. It's stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app. Apple Podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

57:55Hi, I'm Dr. Priyanka Wally. And I'm Hari Kondabolu. It's a new year, and on the podcast Health Stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health. Which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be. I like to sleep in late and sleep early. Is there a chronotype for that, or am I just depressed? Health Stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Dr. Jesse Mills, host of the Mailroom Podcast. Each January, men promise to get stronger, work harder, and fix what's broken.

58:33But what if the real work isn't physical at all? I sat down with psychologist Dr. Steve Poulter to unpack shame, anxiety, and the emotional pain men were never taught how to name. Part of the way through the valley of despair is realizing this has happened, and you have to make a choice whether you're going to stay in it or move forward. Our two-part conversation is available now. Listen to The Mailroom on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

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