Short Stuff: Simple Spelling Movement

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1:09Chuck Bryant:Hey, and welcome to The Short Stuff. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and there's Jerry, and Dave's here in spirit, and this is Short Stuff, which should be spelled exactly like it's spelled right now. Yeah. Should another simple spelling movement come along, Chuck.

1:23Josh Clark:Yeah, although they may drop an F.

1:27Chuck Bryant:Yeah, you're right. Although that could be stoof. But there is no such word as stoof, so I guess it wouldn't be a problem.

1:33Josh Clark:Yeah, but that's what we're talking about. We're talking about the idea that English is a really tough language to learn and that there have been many movements over the years to simplify things and spell things out a little more phonetically. And back in 1906, none other than Teddy Roosevelt, who was president, got into this idea. And he was a very, very popular president who had some other very famous people on board at the time as well, right?

1:59Chuck Bryant:Andrew Carnegie, Mark Twain, William James, the father of psychology, an unnamed Supreme Court justice. Basically, a lot of a lot of thinkers in America came together to basically put their their might behind this. What was another progressive movement at the time? And Teddy Roosevelt was an enthusiastic supporter of it. He issued a what he later called an experiment, a an executive order to the printer of the United States, the official one, and said all federal documents from now on have to be printed using the simplified spelling of these 300 words and gave him a list. And it ended up not going very well at all.

2:45Josh Clark:Yeah, I mean, this kind of just goes to show you that you can be super, super popular as a public figure or even a politician. And if you come up with an idea that people think are dumb, even back then, they turn on you pretty quickly because people hated this idea. He was all over the newspapers being made fun of all of a sudden. And this is a guy that got like a lot of great press. He was in political cartoons. There was one where he was laying knocked out in a boxing ring with a anthropomorphized dictionary had just knocked him out. And Congress certainly didn't like it because they he had sidestepped Congress with this executive order and they were not having it.

3:27Chuck Bryant:No, not at all. Like you said, he he was mocked for it. And his political opponents in Congress just jumped all over this because he was a beloved president, like you said. and there wasn't a lot that they could use against him. And this was great. So because there was an election coming up, he's like, okay, I'm backing off. You guys win. We'll just stay with the dumb rules of grammar and spelling that English has. And let's talk about that a little bit. You want to?

3:56Josh Clark:Well, they actually even brought a bill against him where they cited Webster's. Like they demanded that all federal documents be written according to Webster's or other generally accepted dictionaries of the English language. which is ironic because Webster himself was a proponent of making spelling simpler at one point. And it was also something I know that we've talked about. Benjamin Franklin had also championed this earlier in his career.

4:23Chuck Bryant:Yeah. And both Noah Webster and Benjamin Franklin had already found out that people don't like the concept of simplifying English for some reason, even though there's reason after reason to do this. Chuck, you want to talk a little bit about how English is kind of screwy?

4:40Josh Clark:Well, yeah. I mean, anyone who's ever learned the English language knows that the spelling doesn't make a lot of sense a lot of times. And the rules contradict one another all the time. It's a tough language to learn. and you can look no further than the final three letters G-H-T at the end of words like caught and though and draft and drought to know that there's just doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason. You know, if you learn English and learn how to spell in English, you're basically just taught like you just got to memorize this stuff. There are no rules which are going to help you out.

5:15Chuck Bryant:Exactly. And that is the reason why I didn't realize this, but spelling bees are almost entirely an American phenomenon. They're almost entirely an English-speaking phenomenon because it's so tricky to spell English words and that even countries that do hold spelling bees typically hold them as English spelling bees. Yeah. Which is really saying something about how difficult it is to remember all this stuff in spelling the English language.

5:43Josh Clark:Yeah, although to be fair, they're not spelling things like draft, you know?

5:48Chuck Bryant:No, no. They're spelling anti-disestablishmentarianism.

5:53Josh Clark:Yeah, I think that one's not too hard, actually.

5:56Chuck Bryant:No, it's not, but it's the one that always gets thrown out because it's fun to say. The hard part for me would be doing it in my brain.

6:05Josh Clark:I would have to write it down, I think. Emily was a champion spelling bee kid.

6:11Chuck Bryant:As was my gal.

6:13Josh Clark:Yeah, so they're both great spellers. I'm an okay speller. But yeah, I would have to write it down. I have a hard time doing that in my brain.

6:22Chuck Bryant:Yeah, way hard. It's much harder to do it just in your brain for sure. I think you have to be like a visual person to be able to kind of see it in front of you too. That's got to help. Yeah. The thing I think that this, I don't know if we said it or not, but the group with Andrew Carnegie and Mark Twain, they founded what was known as the, this is official, the Simplified Spelling Board. And what the Simplified Spelling Board was trying to do, as far as they were concerned, was just kind of hasten what was already an organic, naturally occurring process of making it easier to spell English words.

6:58Chuck Bryant:And a really good example that I saw was that in Elizabethan England, or Beethan, depending on where you are speaking English, fish was spelled F-Y-S-H-E. And at some point, naturally, there was no board telling everyone to do this, which I think ultimately is what people's problem is with this. It's somebody saying we're going to do this now. Just naturally, it happened that people started spelling fish F-I-S-H instead. It makes way more sense. It is easier to spell. F-Y-S-H-E was clearly the invention of a madman. So that happens anyway. I mean, that's also the reason why in the United States, we don't spell like honor or color with an O-U like they do in the UK or Canada or Australia, or we don't spell program with an extra M-E at the end because at some point the people in the United States said, we're just going to start spelling this.

7:55Chuck Bryant:It's just easier this way. And so what the Simplified Spelling Board was saying is like, we're just trying to move all this along to its inevitable conclusion. Do we have to wait like a thousand years before it just happens on its own?

8:07Josh Clark:No, but we do have to wait a very short time while we take a break and then short stuff. We'll be right back.

8:26Chuck Bryant:Hey, everybody, we're hitting the road again, starting in January, 2026, picking up again in April, 2026. And eventually, Canada will tell you your dates, too.

8:36Josh Clark:That's right. We're going to do at least three legs. And the first leg is starting out in Denver, Colorado at the Paramount Theater on January 27th. We're going to go back to our beloved Seattle at the Paramount Theater there on the 28th. And then finally back at Sketch Fest on the 29th at the Sidney Goldstein Theater.

8:52Chuck Bryant:Yep. And then April 16th, 17th, and 18th, we're going to be in Madison, Wisconsin, Chicago, Illinois, and Akron, Ohio. And if you're not keeping up with all this or taking notes, don't worry. You can get all the info you need and buy tickets at stuffyoushouldknow.com. Click on the tour button and thank us later.

9:10Josh Clark:That's right. We can't wait to see everybody again out there on the road.

9:27Chuck Bryant:So, again, this is not the first and only time people have proposed simplified spelling. There have also been other initiatives to not only simplify the spelling of English words, but also to kind of straighten out some of the weirder rules of grammar, too. and there's a guy named James Ruggles. He was an Ohio teacher and he said, we're going to spell no, K-N-O-W, the way that it should be spelled N-O-E in the present tense.

9:51Josh Clark:Like I know Chuck is great.

9:55Chuck Bryant:But instead of new, K-N-E-W for past tense, we're going to say node. Like I've always knowed that Chuck is great.

10:05Josh Clark:So, you know, therein presents part of the problem. If you're a literate human and you look at something phonetically or say something like, I knowed that, it makes you sound like you're, you know, maybe not so smart. Right. So, you know, that's kind of the issue is that the people always pushing for this are probably like the hyper literate and they're not going to push for something that looks like it's not.

10:33Chuck Bryant:Yeah, but what's weird is you do have occurrences of people in history like Mark Twain and Andrew Carnegie. It's weird, yes. There's like a roadblock in that, yes, people who are well-versed in English literacy do see this as kind of like there's something wrong with it. But those are also the same people who have kind of started initiatives in the past. So I don't know what the deal is. I don't know if we're ever going to do this to you.

11:02Josh Clark:I don't know. I mean, what I wonder is how far Twain and that board was pushing things. Because it's one thing to spell, you know, thought or though, T-H-O, which is how people do it on text now, or T-H-O-E maybe. And then to say, like, I knowed that guy. You know what I mean?

11:22Chuck Bryant:Yeah, no, I do know what you mean.

11:24Josh Clark:Yeah, one's a little further, I think, than the other.

11:26Chuck Bryant:Well, so, yeah, I'm not exactly how far they were pushing it either, but I do know that they backed off big time after Teddy Roosevelt got his campaign hat handed to him by Congress, right? Yeah. So it just died down for decades. And it wasn't until the 70s that it came up again from a guy named Edward Ronthaler. And he was the chairman of the American Literacy Council. He not only saw a need to simplify spelling just for the sake that it could be simplified. he traced the problem of having trouble learning English and illiteracy rates to dropping out of school and then turning to a life of crime.

12:11Chuck Bryant:So to him, simplifying English would actually help alleviate America's crime problem, which was a big deal from the 70s to the 90s.

12:18Josh Clark:Yeah. And he thought, like, computers are coming along now. wow, this will be the perfect time to make this transition because we can have computer programs sort of just convert this stuff automatically into the simplified form. And then before you know it, everyone will just sort of, you know, adopt this as it becomes the regular thing in computers.