Squirrels, Ahoy!

9:53Josh Clark:Yeah, and we talked about it before when you were having your bird feeder issue. But Atlanta is a city in the forest, and we have tons and tons and tons of squirrels. Kind of everywhere along the East Coast does, but Atlanta just has a lot of squirrels. And as I was reading from my upstairs office, there's a window not right in front of my face but sort of above me. And our huge, big, beautiful oak in our front yard, I'm doing this on squirrels. I just look up for a second and I see four squirrels running around that tree together playing, like circling it like a barber pole. Yeah. I take my daughter to school this morning and I count the squirrels that I see on the way.

10:34Josh Clark:I counted 22 squirrels that I just saw on a 12-minute car ride. You hit one of them. I have before. It's the worst thing ever. It is the worst. But they're everywhere in Atlanta. And it hit me a while ago about how easy it is living here or anywhere where there's a lot of squirrels. Just to sort of be like, yeah, there's squirrels. But it kind of hit me like how crazy it is that there are these little mammals. They're not hiding in holes generally like mice and stuff like that. Like they're just out all over the place at all times. We're surrounded by these little mammals.

11:13Chuck Bryant:Yeah, out and proud. And if you come too close to one of their trees when you're walking by and the squirrel doesn't like it, he's going to sit there or she and chatter at you and basically tell you to beat it, you punk. Get away from my tree. That's one of the great lovable things about squirrels. They have such huge personalities. They're just so great, Chuck.

11:34Josh Clark:I remember my famous squirrel attack not too long ago. when I went outside I got it on my doorbell camera and that squirrel leapt through the air and hit me in the leg it was a complete accident of course I don't think the squirrel was trying to kill me

11:47Chuck Bryant:you don't know

11:48Josh Clark:they're all over the place we're going to get to all the fun stuff about the black squirrels of New York and why squirrels stop in the middle of the road when they go to cross the street we found reasons for all this stuff which I love it's not that squirrels are dumb And we're going to reveal all that in this episode.

12:07Chuck Bryant:Okay. I'm a little excited. I'm a little worked up. I know it's a tad early, but I say we take our first break, okay? We are so squirrel positive that, I mean, that's a great way to put it, Chuck.

12:18Josh Clark:All right. So are we taking a break?

12:20Chuck Bryant:I say.

12:21Josh Clark:All right. I need to calm down, too. And I guarantee you I'm going to go, like, blow my nose in the other room. I'm going to see a squirrel. I'll be right back.

12:40Chuck Bryant:Hey, everybody, get this. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals and 130 million decision makers. And that's where it stands apart from other ad buys.

12:52Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company, role, seniority, skills, even company revenue, so you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience.

13:01Chuck Bryant:Yep, that's why LinkedIn Ads generates the highest B2B ROAS of all online ad networks. Seriously, all of them.

13:09Josh Clark:And get this, if you spend$250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn Ads, you get a free$250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com slash S-Y-S-K. That's LinkedIn.com slash S-Y-S-K. Terms and conditions apply.

13:29Josh Clark:In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal.

13:37Chuck Bryant:And T-Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network, according to the experts at Ookla Speedtest. And they use that network to launch Supermobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security, and seamless satellite coverage.

13:51Josh Clark:That's right. with Supermobile, your performance, security, and coverage are supercharged. With a network that adapts in real time, your business stays operating at peak capacity even in times of high demand. With built-in security on the first nationwide 5G advanced network, you keep private data private for you, your team, and your clients. And with seamless coverage from the world's tallest satellite to mobile constellation, your whole team can text and stay updated even when they're off the grid.

14:15Chuck Bryant:That's your business supercharged. Learn more at supermobile.com.

14:20Josh Clark:Seamless coverage with compatible device in most outdoor areas in the U.S. where you can see the sky. Best network based on analysis by Ookla of Speedtest Intelligence, data 2H 2025.

14:34Chuck Bryant:We're always talking about how things work, and one thing that keeps your car running smoothly is regular oil changes. But life's busy, and the oil light always comes on at the worst time. Well, that's why there's Take 5 Oil Change. It doesn't just save time, it gives you control of your day back. You pull in, stay in your car, check something off your to-do list. No waiting room, no pressure. You're in and you're out in about 10 minutes. Oil changes include tire pressure checks and fluid top-offs. And the friendly staff explain everything and welcome you with a free water.

15:04Josh Clark:Take 5 fitting into your busy schedule is something you should know. Find your nearest shop at Take5.com.

15:20Chuck Bryant:All right, Chuck. So, as promised, we're going to break squirrels down into three groups. Ground, tree, flying, or aerial. And I propose that we start with the ground squirrel. Sure. Many species of which you probably, not you, but I mean you, dear listener, and me, I'll include two, didn't realize were actual squirrels. Yeah, I didn't notice either.

15:45Josh Clark:Groundhog, Chuck? Did not know that was a squirrel. Chipmunk? I had a feeling that might be a squirrel. Gosh, they're so great, too. Yeah, I love chipmunks.

15:54Chuck Bryant:What about a groundhog?

15:57Josh Clark:You already said groundhog.

15:58Chuck Bryant:Did I?

15:59Josh Clark:Yeah.

16:00Chuck Bryant:Okay.

16:01Josh Clark:I'm loving a list of four things.

16:02Chuck Bryant:I'm swirling. I'm swirling still at my love of squirrels. Prairie dog. Yeah, well, that's what was coming out of my mouth next, a prairie dog. Yeah, a prairie dog. Didn't know that. What about that? Meerkat? I didn't know that. Well, that's because they're not. Oh, okay. Prairie dogs, chipmunks, and what was the other one I said? Yeah, marmots. And groundhogs. I hadn't brought them in. And groundhogs. Those are all ground squirrels. They're squirrels' friends. And that makes them pretty awesome. But one of the reasons why you wouldn't think they're squirrels is because in a lot of those species, they lack that characteristic bushy tail.

16:38Josh Clark:Yeah.

16:39Chuck Bryant:But then also, they live almost a totally different life from their tree-dwelling, more famous cousins.

16:46Josh Clark:Yeah, I mean, they might climb a tree, but generally you're not going to see a groundhog or a prairie dog up in the tree. If they need to, you know, for a brief time, if they're trying to find food or something or like on the run from something trying to kill it, they might go up in a tree. But they generally hang out on the ground, hence the name. They love their rocky terrain. Chipmunks, just speaking for them, are pretty solitary unless they're trying to reproduce. But I know that you found some stuff. Was it on the prairie dogs that have their big families and colonies?

17:21Chuck Bryant:Yeah, I mean, that's one of the main characteristics of ground squirrels in general, aside from a couple. But they're much more communal than tree squirrels. And in particular, the largest town, a prairie dog town is what they're called. The largest prairie dog town on record is in Texas because, of course, everything's bigger there. But it was a colony of black-tailed prairie dogs. And this town chuck stretched 100 miles wide by 250 miles long and contained 400 million prairie dogs. Oh, my gosh. Again, crown squirrels, all living in this kind of large community. Jeez. I mean, that's like a Chinese megacity or something like that times 10.

18:05Josh Clark:Yeah. So are these the ones that tend to stay grouped with their own sex?

18:12Chuck Bryant:No. Those tend to be either tree squirrels or flying squirrels. These are more, because they live in communal groups and kinship is a big deal, ground squirrels, like prairie dogs, tend to have a really good ability to smell the scent of other ground squirrels so they can tell, like, who's a blood relation, who's not. And they've done studies to see, you know, if a ground squirrel, they have a lot of really sophisticated calls too because they're alerting others to the presence of a rattlesnake or a hawk or something. So they're really talkative and they have a lot of sophisticated different communication.

18:53Chuck Bryant:And they found that like a prairie dog that will stand up and take the time to risk its own life to alert others, it's actually alerting the others that it's alerting are actually related by blood. And the groundhog or the prairie dog knows this because it can smell its blood relations among all these other, you know, extended family members in the town.

19:16Josh Clark:There's not much cuter than a squirrel sitting up on its rear haunches.

19:21Chuck Bryant:Yeah.

19:22Josh Clark:Whether it's, I mean, obviously those prairie dogs, you know, they do it for a living. But even our eastern gray squirrels sit up on those back legs if they want to work a nut with their little front paw pads.

19:34Chuck Bryant:Yeah, or a chipmunk on its back legs. It doesn't get much cuter than that.

19:38Josh Clark:Those little busy hands? Goodness me.

19:40Chuck Bryant:Yeah.

19:40Josh Clark:All right. So we can move on to our tree squirrel. This is, they're known as arboreal squirrels, obviously, because they are tree squirrels. And this is, when you're talking your eastern gray squirrel, this is not a groundhog. This is not a prairie dog. This is your dyed-in-the-wool, cute little fluffy-tailed sort of, you know, they're called gray, but they're sort of a light brownish color generally, although the colors do range, as we'll see. And these are the ones that you're going to find all over Atlanta, jumping around, climbing around, leaping at podcasters in their front lawn. They spend most of the time, I mean, you see them on the ground plenty, but they live in trees.

20:22Josh Clark:They nest in trees called drays or drays, spelled with an E or an A.

20:29Chuck Bryant:Right. And you probably, if you've ever looked up and seen a mass of like sticks and twigs in a leafless tree in the middle of winter, you're looking at a squirrel's nest called a dray. And this is where you were asking about them staying in like same-sex groups. Apparently in the winter, even though the tree squirrel does not live in a communal society like a ground squirrel does, they're still social. They still interact with one another. They play, they chase, they chase one another off, they like mate. But when it gets really cold, tree squirrels will kind of group their heat together by staying in a dray communally, up to like 30 members.

21:13Chuck Bryant:That's adorable. Yeah, it is very adorable. I want to do a little exercise here real quick, Chuck. Okay. I want you to use your imagination. Eyes are closed. Imagine a very cold winter day. The wind's blowing. Snow is being carried on the wind. And it's passing by just outside a woodpecker hole. And we're inside that woodpecker hole. And it's dark. The light is very, very faint because it's kind of an overcast, snowy day to begin with. But we're also inside a tree in an old woodpecker hole. And it's lined with a bunch of different leaves. And there's half a dozen or so squirrels all kind of snuggled together, sleeping, sharing their warmth as the winter day passes by outside.

21:55Chuck Bryant:and they snooze an afternoon away, fat on acorns that they all just ate.

22:00Josh Clark:Oh, boy. Isn't that amazing? I almost fell asleep. You're real Robert Frost, my friend. Thank you. That was something else.

22:07Chuck Bryant:I like to think Robert Redford crossed with Robert Frost, but sure.

22:11Josh Clark:Well, you know, Robert Redford, if you look in the mirror, but Robert Frost when you pick a pen up.

22:16Chuck Bryant:With the touch of Robert Goulet.

22:18Josh Clark:If you sang it, surely. Oh, man, that really did almost put me to sleep. That's quite nice. I love that scene. So here's a little fun adaptation that squirrels have. If you see a tree squirrel running down a tree face first with little resistance, just like it was made to do it, it's because it is. And they have those little claws, of course, that really helps. But if you look closely or if you look up a picture, rather, and you see like a still image, you will notice that they have the ability to – and Ed says they can turn their feet around. They really kind of just turn their whole back legs around backwards to where those claws are gripping on the way down.

23:03Josh Clark:And that's why they're, you know, it's like the perfect adaptation to be able to run up and down a tree.

23:10Chuck Bryant:So have you ever watched one do that up close? Sure. So anytime I've seen that, if you look, their legs, because they're turned around, it kicks kind of their elbows out a little bit. and they climb down, it looks a little different. And I've noticed that it triggers the part of my lizard brain that's like a spider alert that's triggered by that. So it's like a giant furry spider is coming down to some little part of my brain that sends off an alarm. And it's really off-putting sometimes until I, you know, the larger part, the executive functioning part of my brain is like, it's a squirrel, don't worry.

23:48Chuck Bryant:But there's that one just zap of like, this is weird and scary for a second, but it happens to me from time to time when they come down the tree like that.

23:58Josh Clark:Well, it can be a little startling, you know, if you're going to take out the trash or something and your trash can is next to a big live oak like ours is and there are two or more squirrels that are, they seem like, I don't know what they're doing, they seem like they have a beef with one another, but maybe they're just playing chase. But when they're really boogieing up and down and around a tree, right as you walk upon it, it can be a little bit like, oh, okay.

24:20Chuck Bryant:I read that when one was chasing the other, it's a part of the mating ritual.

24:25Josh Clark:Oh, okay. So that's embarrassing for them. Right.

24:29Chuck Bryant:I don't know if that's across the board, but I saw that in at least one place.

24:33Josh Clark:All right. I like knowing that. Here's another cool thing about squirrels. All kinds of squirrels have scent glands, and it depends on the species where that scent gland is located. It can be near their little bum hole. It can be near their mouth, in the corners of their mouth. can be on their back. But in the case of the tree squirrel, they have their scent glands on their feet and sweat glands on the bottom of their feet. And they are a squirrel that buries their food over large, large areas. Sometimes like up to 25 acres can be their habitat where they're burying and hiding food. And they are literally, every time they walk to bury something, they're leaving a little scent trail that they can go back and pick up.

25:15Josh Clark:Ideally, but it's not a perfect system, sometimes they will lose stuff and not be able to go back. But what they have then done is planted a tree.

25:24Chuck Bryant:Yeah, which brings up their huge ecological role, which is like planting new forests, like keeping forests healthy by forgetting about nuts. And the nut is actually a seed and it grows into a new tree that the squirrel helped move away from the tree. It's amazing. Expanding its range.

25:42Josh Clark:They're known as the gardeners of the forest. Yeah.

25:44Chuck Bryant:And we did a whole short stuff on squirrels bearing nuts. And I remember one of the things that came up was there was a study that found that if they know they're being watched by another squirrel, they'll fake dig a hole and then won't drop the nut in it and then will go somewhere else and mislead a squirrel that they think is watching.

26:03Josh Clark:Yeah, they'll look around first and be like, did anyone see that? Yeah. I think I'm good. Todd was watching.

26:08Chuck Bryant:I better not drop the nut in this hole. He'll come along.

26:11Josh Clark:So that's what the I'm sorry, not the flying, but the tree squirrels That's how they use their scent. The ground squirrels, we should say, mainly use their scent glands to mark their territory. And, you know, because they're all about their clan or their colony, to sort of mark their territory and find out if someone is a part of their clan.

26:30Chuck Bryant:Yeah, and then also, as far as scents go, I saw somewhere that some kinds of ground squirrels that are prey to rattlesnakes will actually find shed rattlesnake skin and rub it on themselves. Oh, wow. They chew it up and rub it on themselves to give themselves a rattlesnake scent to throw off rattlesnakes. They camouflage their scent.

26:50Josh Clark:That's pretty cool.

26:51Chuck Bryant:Yeah.

26:52Josh Clark:I wonder if they ever wear it and just like fashion a couple of holes and stick their arms through. Yeah, and they brag that they killed it. Yeah. Have you – oh, man, I shouldn't even mention this. I'm going to mention it. Have you – because it is roadkill. But have you ever seen the pictures of the squirrel roadkill with the little G.I. Joe action figures?

27:12Chuck Bryant:no just

27:15Josh Clark:look it up I can they aren't squirrels that someone killed it's someone will take a roadkill picture of a squirrel and they'll take the little G.I. Joe figures as if they were big game hunters and they'll have their guns and they'll have like one leg up on the squirrel's head as if it was their trophy and the squirrel looks positively giant next to the little action figures and it's kind of funny

27:38Chuck Bryant:I'll have to check that one out

27:39Josh Clark:I don't want to encourage people. Maybe I shouldn't have even said anything.

27:41Chuck Bryant:Well, I don't know if you're encouraging people to like swerve onto a squirrel, you know. There's probably just that one guy.

27:48Josh Clark:Or kill a squirrel to do that. But maybe just look it up on the internet if you want to see that. Don't recreate it.

27:53Chuck Bryant:If you kill a squirrel and we find out about it, we're coming to your house.

27:57Josh Clark:I know.

27:59Chuck Bryant:Okay.

27:59Josh Clark:With the ghost of that squirrel. Yeah. That we'll introduce to your attic.

28:04Chuck Bryant:There you go. So have we moved on to flying squirrels yet?

28:08Josh Clark:Yeah, let's do it. Those are, you know, the old story. When we had one growing up for a little while, you probably don't remember, but my uncle gave us his flying squirrel to watch for a while. And he would leap from the curtains on the other side of the room onto my shoulder. And then when we went out of town, apparently they said the squirrel got out. But now that I'm an adult, I realize that the cat ate the squirrel.

28:31Chuck Bryant:Oh, man.

28:32Josh Clark:Yeah. Just to recap that childhood trauma.

28:35Chuck Bryant:That's, wow. Okay.

28:37Josh Clark:But for a little while, we had a flying squirrel in our home.

28:40Chuck Bryant:For a brief shining moment. That's the upshot. So a flying squirrel, and I thought this, I thought they were fairly rare. Apparently, they're as common as tree squirrels in some places. The reason that you think they're rare is because they're nocturnal. So we're usually sleeping when they're out and about.

28:58Josh Clark:I love thinking about those things, just flying around all night.

29:01Chuck Bryant:Yeah, and flying is right, man. I saw, Ed says the thing glide up to 150 feet. I saw 300 in some cases. And that's what they're doing. They're gliding. They're not flying. They have no means of, like, propulsion. But they have a skin flap. They've evolved a skin flap that is, you know, the bat suit that people, like, you know, skydive with.

29:22Josh Clark:Uh-huh.

29:23Chuck Bryant:That is based basically 100 % on the flying squirrel's membranes between its front legs and hind legs that it can spread out when it jumps and it just catches the air. And they can move it this way and that and use their tail as a rudder and go 150 feet in a pretty purposeful direction too.

29:46Josh Clark:Did you say what the name of the flap was? No. Do you want to?

29:50Chuck Bryant:No, I'd probably screw it up.

29:54Josh Clark:I'm going to go with patagium.

29:56Chuck Bryant:That's great. I wonder what they call that. Patagium. I wonder what they call that in the flying suit biz, extreme flying suit biz. I don't know. And I think they call them bat suits, but that's a misnomer if you ask me.

30:12Josh Clark:I've got to say, I mean, I'm not into any of that stuff. I would never do it. But those videos are amazing.

30:17Chuck Bryant:Oh, I know.

30:18Josh Clark:As close as humans have come, I think, to flying, it feels like.

30:23Chuck Bryant:Agreed. Yeah, I would have to have probably a lobotomy to actually try that. It would take that radical of a personality change for me to try.

30:33Josh Clark:Well, and I mean, sure, that kind of thing. That's the most extreme, like years and years of training.

30:38Chuck Bryant:Yes.

30:39Josh Clark:Skydiving training and stuff like that. You don't just jump into a bat suit.

30:42Chuck Bryant:No, no, no, definitely not. But even if you do, you know, once you get to that point, like I can't imagine how dangerous that is. If you smack into something, you're going really fast. Yeah, yeah.

30:52Josh Clark:You're toast.

30:53Chuck Bryant:Yeah. And that happens, sadly. But I get the impression that the rush is worth the risk.

31:00Josh Clark:That's right. And speaking of risk, there are endangered flying squirrels, the Carolina Northern Flying Squirrel. And we talked a little bit about these little land bridges that are starting to pop up in the United States over overpasses and freeway crossings. crossings. And I just read today there's one in LA that's opening up that's like 160 feet wide. I can't remember the name of it. It's named after someone. And to allow cougars and mountain lions to pass and all kinds of animals. And they're using, you know, they have done studies for squirrels and that they found tagged, like radio tagged squirrels are foraging and building on the other side of these massive freeways thanks to these bridges.

31:48Josh Clark:Like, it's been proven to work.

31:49Chuck Bryant:Yeah, for sure. I think it's called the Robert Evans Memorial Animal Land Bridge.

31:55Josh Clark:Baby.

31:57Chuck Bryant:Yeah, if only. So, that actually kind of leads us to a quote I ran across, Chuck. Because if you put, like I was saying, if you can kind of connect a tree to another tree, which really ties into that rewilding episode because you're using, you're connecting core to core via corridor, basically is what they're doing with that. That there was an old saying that before, well, not too long ago, I think into the 18th century, maybe even early 19th century, that there was so many chestnut trees in North America that a squirrel could make it from Maine to Georgia without ever touching the ground. Yeah.

32:38Chuck Bryant:Where did we cover that in? Was it? I don't remember. I remember that factoid. That's a great one. So it really kind of goes to show like there used to be a lot more forest in the United States, but there were also a lot more squirrels because there's a positive correlation between mast producing trees, which are chestnut, beech, oak, trees that produce nuts that squirrels and other forest animals eat. and the number and population density of squirrels in an area. You have a lot of mass-producing trees, you're going to have a lot of squirrels because, again, they fill their ecological niche to basically bursting.

33:20Josh Clark:Yeah, and they, you know, bursting with food because they are opportunistic eaters is what Ed says, and that's a pretty good way to say it because while they, well, obviously if they can get fruit or nuts and seeds, that's the stock of their diet. But they will eat whatever keeps them alive. They will eat insects and fungus, and they actually spread fungus, which is great. They eat roots. They have found little tiny eggs and little tiny birds and little tiny lizards in the guts of squirrels. So they technically are omnivores, which is just to say squirrels are remarkable at staying alive. And they will eat your garbage.

34:03Josh Clark:They will eat whatever they need to. But that's only if they're not finding the nuts and the seeds and stuff like that, which there are generally plenty of in the United States.

34:12Chuck Bryant:And one reason that they're suited for nuts or that nuts are suited for them is because they have two sets of incisors, I believe an up and a down is the technical term. And they grow constantly throughout their lifetime. I think they grow something like, is this even possible that I'm seeing it, six inches a year?

34:33Josh Clark:Well, I mean, they're constantly grinding them down. So I think if a squirrel was in a coma, they could have six-inch fangs.

34:39Chuck Bryant:That's crazy. And then apparently if they don't continuously grind them down and they kept growing, they would grow through the top and the bottom of their face, a la Lisa Simpson that time she needed braces. But that's crazy. So they use these very, very hard nuts like a chestnut or pecan or walnut shell to impart, it's a food source, but as they're getting to the food source, they're keeping their teeth ground down, which apparently they have to do all the time.

35:08Josh Clark:That's pretty amazing. Squirrels also like a little sweet treat every now and then. They have found red squirrels in Maine that will tap sugar maple trees. They make little bite marks in the tree, and then they just say, all right, do your thing, and they come back a few days later, and that trap has hardened up and run out a little bit, And that is just a little tiny sweet treat for a squirrel.

35:29Chuck Bryant:That's right. It was pretty awesome. They also found that squirrels can learn by observing other squirrels doing something, particularly finding new ways to get food. They're adept at that.

35:41Josh Clark:Oh, okay. So they see Todd doing something, and they say, not a bad idea. Let's give that a shot.

35:46Chuck Bryant:Yeah. That Todd really came around. Yeah.

35:49Josh Clark:And if you'll notice, I think we kind of skipped over this. If we didn't mention Australia, squirrels, I think, used to be in Australia, but aren't so much now. And is it a mystery or is it just the obvious that the Australians were like, soup's on, mate?

36:04Chuck Bryant:I don't know. I didn't see that anywhere. But I know that they introduced the eastern gray. And then in Perth, they introduced the Indian palm, which is like if you mash together an eastern gray squirrel and a chipmunk, that it would be an Indian palm squirrel. But apparently they both died out. I don't know if it's a mystery or not, like you're saying. But supposedly there's some feral colonies that escape from zoos, at least in Perth. So there are wild squirrels in Australia, but they were introduced in the 19th century, which is actually a trend, as we'll see. But I say before we tackle all that, we take a break.

36:41Chuck Bryant:How about that?

36:42Josh Clark:All right. We'll take the break and we'll talk about squirrel migration right after this.

36:59Chuck Bryant:Hey, everybody, get this. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals and 130 million decision makers. And that's where it stands apart from other ad buys.

37:11Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company, role, seniority, skills, even company revenue. So you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience.

37:19Chuck Bryant:Yep, that's why LinkedIn Ads generates the highest B2B ROAS of all online ad networks. Seriously, all of them.

37:27Josh Clark:And get this, if you spend$250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn Ads, you get a free$250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com slash S-Y-S-K. That's LinkedIn.com slash S-Y-S-K. Terms and conditions apply.

37:48Josh Clark:In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal.

37:55Chuck Bryant:And T-Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network, according to the experts at Ookla Speedtest. And they use that network to launch Supermobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security, and seamless satellite coverage.

38:10Josh Clark:That's right. With Supermobile, your performance, security, and coverage are supercharged. With a network that adapts in real time, your business stays operating at peak capacity even in times of high demand. With built-in security on the first nationwide 5G advanced network, you keep private data private for you, your team, and your clients. And with seamless coverage from the world's tallest satellite to mobile constellation, your whole team can text and stay updated even when they're off the grid.

38:34Chuck Bryant:That's your business supercharged. Learn more at supermobile.com.

38:39Josh Clark:Seamless coverage with compatible device in most outdoor areas in the U.S. where you can see the sky. Best network based on analysis by Ookla of Speedtest Intelligence Data 2H 2025.

38:53Chuck Bryant:We're always talking about how things work, and one thing that keeps your car running smoothly is regular oil changes. But life's busy, and the oil light always comes on at the worst time. Well, that's why there's Take 5 Oil Change. It doesn't just save time, it gives you control of your day back. You pull in, stay in your car, check something off your to-do list. No waiting room, no pressure. You're in and you're out in about 10 minutes. Oil changes include tire pressure checks and fluid top-offs. And the friendly staff explain everything and welcome you with a free water.

39:22Josh Clark:Take 5 fitting into your busy schedule is something you should know. Find your nearest shop at Take5.com.

39:39Chuck Bryant:Okay, Chuck, so as I was saying, like, back before pre-colonial days in particular, but also even into the 19th century, I think even the 1960s, there were reports of massive numbers of squirrels, basically stampeding. They call them squirrel migrations, and they have been documented enough times that it's not an anomaly, but they are fairly rare. And today they've kind of figured out that there aren't dense enough populations of squirrels to ever have a genuine like squirrel stampede like they had before. But there used to be so many of them that every once in a while, thousands to tens of thousands to tens to tens of thousands of squirrels would pass generally in like a big wave over an area.

40:25Chuck Bryant:And apparently it was quite a thing to see.

40:27Josh Clark:I imagine it was. And this happened because there would just be a really big fruitful year for squirrel food, tons of availability. And they would boom in numbers because they go to where the food is. and usually if that is followed by or I guess historically when that was followed by a really bad year like the rain you know didn't work out so great for producing nuts and seeds and stuff and fruit that all of a sudden you've got a ton of squirrels in an area that are all looking around going oh what's the deal and they're opportunists so they said all right we're getting out of here we're going to where the food is let's go everybody and they would do it all at once

41:10Chuck Bryant:Yeah, all at once for some reason. And so these migrations, they would be running through the forest. They'd be running across fields. They'd be swimming across rivers. And apparently, in at least one account I saw, they would be gulped up by bass in the rivers. And I can't imagine seeing anything worse than a squirrel being eaten by a fish. That seems unnatural. Yeah, but there were so many of them. And this is also at a time where squirrels were roundly, among basically everyone living in America, viewed as vermin, as invaders, as things that were unwanted, but also a tasty food source, too.

41:48Chuck Bryant:So anytime there was a squirrel stampede, the yokels would run out with their sticks and bags and beat squirrels to death and then cook them and sell their pelts and do all sorts of things with them. And one of the reasons why they were viewed as vermin, Chuck, is because on these squirrel migrations and other times where they were just, you know, if you were unlucky with your planting, those squirrels might see as a food source the crops you just planted, all those seeds and would dig them up and ruin your year's crops in a day or so. So people didn't like squirrels for a very long time. And this idea of squirrels being everywhere, these little mammals living among us like you were talking about earlier, that's fairly new.

42:28Chuck Bryant:And that's actually very deliberate and purposeful because squirrels were basically gone up until about the mid to late 19th century in America.

42:37Josh Clark:Yeah, I mean, between being hunted because people hated them on their farms, like you said, people and people still and like generally in certain parts of like Appalachia still eat squirrel on the menu. It is a little gamey from what I'm told. I'm never going to eat a squirrel, but they still use pelts. But that kind of, you know, just like they would eat any larger mammal and use their pelts, they would just get crafty with, you know, as small as a squirrel. and certainly in times of real need, small rodents would come in handy on the menu back then. But they were almost gone. We started growing more urban in the 1800s, obviously, and they were killing squirrels as fast as they could.

43:23Josh Clark:And in the 1840s and 50s, there were so few squirrels that they were introduced to city parks, but not many at first. They were just like this weird curiosity where you would go out kind of like bird watching and you would like try to spot a squirrel running around because it was such a novel thing. But then by the time Frederick Law Olmsted, who, by the way, deserves his own podcast, came along and really introduced the idea of these really large city parks and urban parks, they introduced a lot of squirrels to these parks. And they really, really, like, that's kind of why we have the squirrels we have today, was from this movement to reintroduce them in a big way to urban parks.

44:05Chuck Bryant:Yeah, and, I mean, we talk kind of a lot about that whole idea in our Central Park episode, this idea that, you know, they just kept building the city and building the city and building the city. And people started going crazy because there weren't green spaces. So that brought the parks in. And then the idea of adding animals to the park just to kind of naturalize it even more. that squirrels played a huge role in that. And not only, you know, in Central Park, but also it started out in, I believe, Philadelphia and then followed by Boston. And so by the mid to late 19th century, that's when squirrels started to reestablish themselves.

44:41Chuck Bryant:And the way that people saw squirrels started to change too. And there was this idea that they weren't vermin anymore. Don't shoot them. Please try not to hit them with a stick. Instead, let's go to the park, spend some time outside, and bring some nuts with you and maybe feed the squirrels. And not only you feed the squirrels, but you got a little kid. That little kid wants to hit that squirrel with a stick so bad because kids are awful like that. Good luck. But you can actually use squirrels, feeding squirrels, as a way to teach kids to have compassion, to be upstanding morally, to have charity.

45:17Chuck Bryant:And that was kind of how the whole interaction between humans and squirrels was kind of framed around that time, like the late 19th, early 20th century.

45:27Josh Clark:Yeah, the Boy Scout co-founder Ernest Thompson Seton said that squirrels and introducing them to boys in general would say would cure them of their tendency toward cruelty. But I said good luck a second ago. How do you hit a – I mean I guess if there's a stampede, but you show me a kid that can get a squirrel and hit it with a stick. And that's a future Olympian. Sure. There's no way. Those things are so fast. But don't try to do it, kids. Definitely.

45:56Chuck Bryant:No, don't even practice that. Don't try to qualify for the Olympics in that because you'll show up to the Olympics and be like, we don't have that. That's not one of our sports.

46:05Josh Clark:See, what do you think this is, Australia? Right. So these days, you know, we've kind of come full circle into just sort of letting squirrels be. There are, you know, if you're a hunter in the United States, and it may be the tradition in your family, if you live out in the country, to start off your child with hunting squirrels with a little 22 rifle or something as practice to teach young hunters. I'm certainly not into that, but I'm not going to judge you if that's your thing. And like I said, people still do eat squirrel in certain parts of the United States today. I guess we can talk. I mean, we found a lot of extra fun stuff.

46:50Chuck Bryant:Well, let's talk about. So we were talking about how they're viewed in America. Depending on where you are in the world and depending on the squirrel you're talking about, they're actually, they can be viewed quite negatively. I remember in our rewilding episode, we talked about how Eastern gray squirrels are considered an invasive species in Italy, where they call them American killer squirrels. And there's also an issue with Eastern gray squirrels in Europe, where they've killed off most of the Eurasian red squirrels over there. Oh, that's true. They've just out-competed them. It's not like they've, you know, choked them or anything like that.

47:26Chuck Bryant:They just, they're like almost twice as big. They're a lot more ornery. And they've just kind of diminished the number of Eurasian red squirrels in the UK. So much so that three quarters of the population lives in Scotland. And I would just like to direct everybody to the Scottish Squirrels website. Go to scottishsquirrels.org.uk. and this is very important, slash about. And on their about page, the header image is maybe the cutest squirrel you'll ever see in your entire life.

48:00Josh Clark:Is that the one you sent me and Jerry?

48:02Chuck Bryant:Yes.

48:03Josh Clark:Yeah.

48:04Chuck Bryant:Isn't that the cutest squirrel ever?

48:06Josh Clark:It's pretty cute. You also sent something else. If you go to rspca.org.uk slash advice and welfare slash wildlife slash animals slash gray squirrels slash feeding, or you could just Google feeding squirrels and using nest boxes, you're going to see a squirrel with a chicken wing in its mouth. That's pretty cute, too.

48:27Chuck Bryant:It's better than a bass eating a squirrel, I'll tell you that.

48:31Josh Clark:Yeah, that's a good article you sent because it talks about if you like squirrels around, which I certainly do, creating a good habitat for them. Trees, obviously, is a good thing to have. Not cutting down trees is a great thing to do if you can avoid it. And then having squirrel-safe bird feeders. And this means not that the squirrels can't get to that seed because they, as you have attested, they will find a way. Life finds a way. Right. But it won't trap the squirrel inside of it.

48:59Chuck Bryant:No, that's a big one too. They also kind of get into, they get all Macbeth or Hamlet. Which one was to be or not to be?

49:09Josh Clark:Why are you asking me this and putting it on the spot?

49:11Chuck Bryant:Because they get all Hamlet or Macbeth on whether or not to feed squirrels. There you go. So they're like, you could feed squirrels, but really you shouldn't. And the RSPCA takes, I think, a pretty sensible tact, which is build a habitat for the squirrels in that you're planting the right kind of trees that provide a place for them to nest and a place for them to get food. and then just step back and enjoy them. That should be enough. But if you're like, you know, me and Mo and you go on walks or whatever and you want to feed the squirrels, there are some things that are better for squirrels than others.

49:45Chuck Bryant:And it's basically you want to give them what they would naturally eat, which is mast, unshelled nuts, like walnuts, chestnuts, acorns, hazelnuts, that kind of thing. Safflower seeds probably, huh? Yes, but not black safflower seeds. I saw that if you were one of those people who can't stand squirrels rating your bird feeder. Black safflower seeds are, they'll eat them, but they're not crazy about them. And most birds like them instead. So that's one way to do it. But you can also feed them vegetables too. And Chuck, they included this little tip that I didn't realize, but if you're feeding squirrels or leaving food out for squirrels in your yard and you have a garden that you care about, you don't really want the squirrel taking the food and then burying it elsewhere.

50:28Chuck Bryant:So they said, if you're going to feed them fruits and vegetables, shred it. because the squirrel's just going to eat it there. It's not going to try to bury it. I thought that was smart.

50:37Josh Clark:Yeah, and if you have the nuts, don't give them honey-roasted almonds, like unsweetened, unsalted stuff. I have set up, I have a camp cam at the family camp, a trail cam, and it's keyed in on my deer feeder that I got, which is corn. And I've seen one deer, but almost every night I have scores of raccoons.

51:01Chuck Bryant:Nice.

51:01Josh Clark:And almost every day, well, every day, I have squirrels, crows, and now daily turkeys visiting.

51:09Chuck Bryant:Oh, neat.

51:10Josh Clark:Lots and lots of turkeys. So I don't care that the deer aren't visiting. It's all kinds of animals are coming around. It's always fun to watch on the camp cam.

51:18Chuck Bryant:That is very cool. One thing you want to be careful with with peanuts, too, is giving them raw peanuts. Because peanuts can carry an aflatoxin, which is very, it's not good. It's not good for squirrels. It's not good for humans either. It's a type of fungus, I think, that actually is not only carcinogen or carcinogous. It can actually, like, just kill you on the spot, neurologically speaking. So you actually want roasted peanuts, but not salted or anything like that. So, like, plain roasted peanuts. Or what's even better, because it helps with their teeth, are mass nuts. Again, like pecans, walnuts, that kind of stuff.

51:58Chuck Bryant:But a lot of people say don't feed squirrels because you're actually what you're doing is, as we've seen, if squirrels know that there's a lot of food, they're going to mate, mate, mate, mate, mate. And there's going to be a lot of squirrels and they're going to become dependent on that additional food supply.

52:13Josh Clark:Yeah.

52:13Chuck Bryant:And they might start showing up at your neighbor's house. They might start burrowing into your attic. There's just a lot of there's a lot of things that to take into consideration, I guess.

52:24Josh Clark:Yeah. Well, the family camp, there's nothing but wood. So I hope we get overrun.

52:29Chuck Bryant:So I agree with you. So you found a couple of cool things, including why squirrels seem to dash in front of your car when you're driving, right?

52:39Josh Clark:Yeah. And again, I love that we've just finally found answers for this stuff because this is kind of a fun, non-obnoxious fact to drop on someone. If you're driving around a neighborhood and the squirrel does that thing and people go, why do squirrels do that? We can say, well, it's actually an evolutionary instinct. to get away from a predator. So if you run out and you initially freeze when there's a predator, the predator is sort of like a football player waiting for the defensive player to make their move, and then you go the opposite way with a little juke. And that's what the squirrel's doing.

53:16Josh Clark:They go out, they freeze when they see that car, and if it was a predator, they would wait on the predator to sort of make a move, and then they can quickly go in a direction that really comes in handy when it's a predator, When it's a car that's going generally in a big hulking straight line, it's not the same thing. But a squirrel has a squirrel brain, and it doesn't realize that. So that's why a squirrel will jump out in a street, see a car, and just stop. They're not dumb. They're waiting on you to make some hawk-like move, which doesn't happen in the car. So what you do is you just slow down and check your rearview mirror.

53:53Josh Clark:Don't slam on the brakes or anything. But, you know, they're everywhere, and I've hit, I think, maybe two squirrels in my adult life. So it's not like the most common thing to run over a squirrel.

54:05Chuck Bryant:Yeah. I ran over one once, and my brother-in-law said that he was on his way to buy a birthday present for his young kid who was waiting forever for their dad to come back for his birthday present for his party. Yeah. It was not helpful.

54:20Josh Clark:And what about these black squirrels? Emily and I were taking a walk through Brooklyn one day and saw a black, black, black squirrel, not just a hint of black. And it was the coolest thing I've ever seen. And I've since seen a few more here and there in New York. And we have the answer there, too, right?

54:39Chuck Bryant:Yes. They seem to be. So they used to think that they were freaks of nature, I think, as one naturalist put it, like, years and years ago. And somebody said, I don't know if that's true. I think these actually might have been the dominant version. They seem to be closely related to Eastern Greys, if not just a type of Eastern Grey, like a different breed of that species. But they were saying they used to possibly be the dominant version, and they got edged out by the Eastern Grey. And so they're there. They're just kind of infrequently. They infrequently appear. But there are parts of North America where they seem to populate more than others.

55:21Chuck Bryant:like New York. You, me, and I used to see them in D.C., Toronto. They're all over Toronto, and Ontario in general, from what I understand. So, it seems like, from what I could tell, that they think that they were there already, and now we're just kind of seeing them in, like, this kind of moment in time where their numbers have diminished tremendously, where if we went back in time, we might see a lot more. Does that seem accurate?

55:46Josh Clark:Yeah, I mean, it's just genetics. It's a recessive gene that causes an abnormal pigmentation. And you're only going to get more of that recessive gene if these squirrels or any creature is reproducing in a smaller area. So if you've got a contained population, like let's say an island like New York or apparently Roosevelt Island has a lot of them, you're just going to see more of them. So DC is a little, not inexplicable, but it makes more sense in New York because you're just going to get more of this recessive gene happening in a smaller area. So not at all my explanation then? No, it's your explanation.

56:32Josh Clark:No, you nailed it. And this was an article, The Mysterious Black Squirrels of NYC from what turns out to be a really good website called untappedcities.com and writer Michelle Young. It's a really cool read. Yeah.

56:46Chuck Bryant:So you got anything else on squirrels? Nothing. Hug a squirrel. Embrace a squirrel. But don't do that. If you do feed them, don't let them eat out of your hand. Yeah. Because they'll bite you. Even though they're grateful, they're still bitey. And since I said that, everybody, it's time for listener mail.

57:08Josh Clark:That's right. And it's great to listen to her mail because we get to say hello to a kindergarten class, which is always fun. Hello. Hi, Mr. Chuck and Mr. Josh. My name is Katie. It's either Fink or Finky. And I'm emailing with my kindergarten class in Baltimore City. We sometimes listen to your show. And we were so excited when you heard you mention the three sisters in the recent watermelon episode. We actually spent a whole weekend learning about the three sisters this fall. and wanted to share with you our excitement. We hope you do a short stuff on them soon. We definitely will. If you need some Three Sisters experts, we wanted to tell you these facts that we learned this year.

57:49Chuck Bryant:Oh, yes.

57:50Josh Clark:And here's a little short list. Native Americans would plant fish first in the ground to prepare the soil, make it healthy and rich. Love that. The corn grows so tall, it holds up the beans, and the squash keeps the soil moist, so the other two sisters have enough water to stay hydrated. And finally, all three of the sisters are dried so that people can save them to eat later in the winter, which is a great benefit. So we really wanted to share our knowledge in case you do a short stuff. Thanks for reading. Love, Miss Finkies or Miss Fink's kindergarten class. And like I said, this is in Baltimore City.

58:29Chuck Bryant:Man, that's really impressive. Like, I remember in kindergarten I was learning red. Red. Red. I wasn't learning about the three sisters and ground covers, like, keeping the moisture in place for the other two. I mean, come on. That's really impressive. This week, red. I think it was more like that month. Yeah. February's red month. Right. Oh, that's great. Well, thank you, Miss Fink or Finky's class. Hats off to you guys. Keep it up. And yes, we will definitely do a Three Sisters episode someday dedicated to you guys. Right, Chuck? For sure. If you want to get in touch with us, you can too via email at stuffpodcast at iheartradio.com.

59:19Josh Clark:Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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