The Battle of the Sexes

9:23Josh Clark:Should we go back to the early 70s and set the stage? Yes. All right. Early 1970s was a pretty volatile time. It was a big time for women to start kind of standing up for real and saying like, hey, we want attention. We want rights. We want the same rights as men. Roe v. Wade was decided in 73. The Equal Rights Amendment was all over the news. In the case of sports, certainly 1972 with Title IX of the Education Amendments Act, that required schools to offer girls and women the opportunities to basically get equal funding and participate equally in athletics as boys and men. And so it was a it was a big time for women's advocacy and feminism and women's rights between like 19.

10:13Josh Clark:And, you know, certainly before that, but definitely between 1970 and like 1975. Yeah.

10:18Chuck Bryant:And just as an aside, we did it, if I may say so, a pretty good episode on the Equal Rights Amendment in 2021 called Why is the ERA Still Not Ratified? Yeah, which is true. Yeah. So, yeah, it was a big time. there's a lot of momentum for women's lib for feminism. It was also a big time for tennis, which was becoming really, really popular, especially in the United States. The number of Americans who played tennis tripled from 1970 to 1974. And one of the reasons why is because the tennis world started holding opens. I never knew this before, but the U.S. Open, the Australian Open, the reason they're called opens, because they're open to all players.

11:01Chuck Bryant:You can be an amateur, you can be a pro, and you can compete in these tournaments, an open tournament. That was brand new. I think Wimbledon was the first one to start it, I think, in 1968. So a lot of really freaky, exciting stuff's going on in the world.

11:19Josh Clark:That's right. Billie Jean King was, and we should also point out that, you know, as far as wage disparity, in 1968, if you were a professional tennis player, you earned two to three times as much as a woman. And when the sport grew, that gap actually grew. It didn't get more narrow, which was pretty startling at the time. But Billie Jean King was born in 1943. And by the time this event rolled around, she was huge. She had won 10 Grand Slam titles by 73. She was number one ranked tennis player six different times. in 1970 or by 1973 was the 1972 Sports Illustrated Sports Person of the Year. And like you said, was a real feminist activist kind of from the jump.

12:05Josh Clark:I think there was a story from when she was a kid, when she was 11 or 12, a junior player. She was not allowed to be in a photo, like a tournament photo, because she wasn't wearing the tennis skirt. She was wearing shorts. And they said, you can't be in this picture. And immediately, little 12-year-old Billie Jean King was like, what the hell?

12:22Chuck Bryant:Yeah, she was like, these are skorts. They said that doesn't count.

12:26Josh Clark:Right. That's not a thing yet.

12:28Chuck Bryant:So, yeah. And one thing about Billie Jean King from a bunch of stuff I read and saw about her is that, like, she was tireless. Yeah. And still, she's a tireless activist for women's rights. Like, she didn't ever slow down. And when you kind of learn about all the side stuff she did to promote women in tennis and women's rights in general, like on top of that, bear in mind, she's one of the top tennis players in the world by dominating in tennis. So that takes a lot of practice, a lot of dedication. And she's doing all this other stuff at the same time. So she's like basically the definition of tireless.

13:07Josh Clark:Yeah, and she was doing this in the 1960s because all those accomplishments I mentioned was by 73. But in 1966, she was the number one women's tennis player in the world. And she was making$100 a week as a playground instructor at Los Angeles State College. So the money the athletes were making was not anything like it is today. And it was way, way worse for women. I think that first open you mentioned at Wimbledon in 68, she won. She won that tournament and won 750 pounds. Rod Laver, the men's champion, won 2000 pounds. And she was like in 68. She was like, this is totally unfair. What's going on?

13:49Chuck Bryant:Yeah. And money comes up a lot. Um, it was the reason why is it's an easy shorthand to basically point out women's, um, lesser treatment compared to men. Uh, it's also something that most people can just kind of wrap their minds around. Like, yeah, 750 pounds is a lot less than 2000 pounds, but they're both the champions. Well, that doesn't make any sense. So money is a big focus throughout this, but it's not just because everybody wants money, you know?

14:16Josh Clark:Yeah, totally. Uh, so in 1970, uh, Billie Jean King, uh, was like, we need to do something sort of official and sort of big here. So she looked to a woman named Gladys Heldman, who was the founder of World Tennis Magazine. Uh, she was a very big prominent figure in the tennis world overall, um, obviously because of World Tennis and also because she was at the time the mother of a very high ranked player named Julie Heldman. That was her daughter. so she was a good person to go to and they said here's what we can do to make a splash um there's a tennis tournament coming up called the pacific southwest open in la where they're paying the the prize purse for the men's champion is twelve thousand five hundred the purse for the women's champion is fifteen hundred dollars which i mean looking back at the wimbledon disparity that wasn't too bad compared to this right yeah uh and this was even after that.

15:10Josh Clark:And they said, why don't we boycott this tournament? And Gladys Heldman said, you know what? Why don't we start our own tournament that competes with this tournament? And everyone went, oh, this sounds exciting.

15:23Chuck Bryant:Yeah. So, yeah, that was a huge step beyond what they were originally thinking of. And so the U.S. Tennis Association, at the time they were called the U.S. Law and Tennis Association, they were like, hey, go ahead and try that, but we are going to suspend you. We might ban you from tournament play. We're going to erase your rankings. Like, it's going to be a bad jam if you guys go off and form your own tournament. And it took a lot of bravery because not all women tennis players signed on for this. In fact, only nine, including Billie Jean King, said, you know what, we're going to go do this anyway.

16:00Chuck Bryant:And so they signed contracts with Heldman. And so they became pros on this other tour, which protected them from getting punished on the USLTA tour. And they started their own championship, which eventually was, I think, supported and sponsored by Virginia Slim's cigarettes.

16:22Josh Clark:Yeah, that's right. And we should mention that contract was for a dollar each. So they clearly were doing this to make a statement and not to make a ton of money.

16:30Chuck Bryant:Right.

16:30Josh Clark:But Philip Morris, yeah, they stepped in because they there was a recent federal ban on advertising on TV and radio for cigarettes. And so they said, we got to get our name out there somewhere. So let's call this the you know, we've got these Virginia Slims with its quasi feminist message. You've come a long way, baby. That was our ad slogan for a long time. Long time. and tennis the you know the original nine is what they were called those tennis players that that went along or the eight that went along with billy jean king and said they're like yeah i mean we're athletes it's a little weird to have a cigarette sponsor but we need a sponsor so we'll take it and that tournament went over really well and it was so successful that they said hey why don't we start our own circuit and they had the virginia slim circuit uh there were eight more tournaments that they sponsored.

17:15Josh Clark:And the original nine, you know, they initially did follow through with their threat to like ban them. The USLTA? Yeah, USLTA at the time. But they said, oh, actually, they're doing so well over there. We're in trouble now. So we need to join forces. And they gave up and they merged with the Virginia Slim events.

17:37Chuck Bryant:Yeah. And I'm not usually one to defend tobacco producers, but I saw a PBS, I think American masters clip that was interviewing some of the original nine and they were like, Virginia Slims showed up. Like they knew how to market, they knew how to get buzz. They put a ton of money behind advertising and like they, this was not like a, just a whatever thing to them. They were actually a really great sponsor for this. So yeah, they, Yes, these nine women, and I think eventually more joined, they were like, if you won't include us, we're just going to go create our own thing. Like they worked at it like that and it actually paid off in ACES.

18:20Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. Hey, you want to take a break? Hey, yeah. All right. We'll be back right after this.

18:36Chuck Bryant:Hi, this is Jo Winterstein, host of the Spirit Daughter podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And I just sat down with a mini driver. The Irish traveler said when I was 16, you're going to have a terrible time with men. Actor, storyteller, and unapologetic Aquarian visionary. Aquarius is all about freedom loving and different perspectives. and I find a lot of people with strong placements in Aquarius like are misunderstood. A sun and Venus in Aquarius in her seventh house spark her unconventional approach to partnership. He really has taught me to embrace people sleeping in different rooms, on different houses, in different places, but just an embracing of the is-ness of it all.

19:21Chuck Bryant:If you're navigating your own transformation or just want a chart-side view into how a leading artist integrates astrology, creativity, and real life, This episode is a must listen. Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Segregation in the day, integration at night.

19:47Josh Clark:When segregation was the law, one mysterious Black club owner had his own rules.

19:52Chuck Bryant:We didn't worry about what went on outside. It was like stepping in another world.

19:57Josh Clark:Inside Charlie's place, black and white people danced together. But not everyone was happy about it.

20:05Chuck Bryant:You saw the KKK? Yeah, they were dressed up in their uniform. The KKK set out to raid Charlie, take him away from here. Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him.

20:22Josh Clark:From Atlas Obscura, Rococo Punch, and Visit Myrtle Beach comes Charlie's Place, a story that was nearly lost to time. Until now. Listen to Charlie's Place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

20:41Chuck Bryant:Ever feel like you're being chased by the marriage police?

20:47Chuck Bryant:Welcome to Boys and Girls, the podcast where dating isn't dating. Arranged marriage is basically a reality show. except the contestants are strangers and your entire family is judging. You're sipping coffee with one maybe, grabbing dinner with another and praying your karmic Ken or Barbie appears before your shelf life runs out. Trust me, I've been through this ancient and unshakable tradition. I jumped in hoping to find love the right way and instead I found chaos, cringe and comedy. And now I'm looking for healing. Boys and Girls dives into every twist and turn of the arranged marriage carousel the meet awkward, the near misses the heartbreak and let's not forget all the jokes

21:35Chuck Bryant:Listen to Boys and Girls on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts

22:00Josh Clark:All right, so where we left off, the original nine went off and formed their own Virginia Slim Circuit. They were, you know, endangered the USLTA such that they partnered with them eventually. But money started flowing in a little bit. In 1971, Billie Jean King was the first female athlete of any sport at all to make more than$100 ,000. A lot of money in 1971 dollars. Still a lot less than her peers on the male side of the equation. And so she was still, you know, banging that drum. She wasn't like, all right, our work is done. And in 1973, before Wimbledon that year, she got together in London, where Wimbledon is, in a hotel room with 63.

22:42Josh Clark:I guess it was probably a large meeting room.

22:44Chuck Bryant:Yeah.

22:45Josh Clark:63 other women tennis players. And they said, all right, we're doing this today. we're going to form the WTA, the Women's Tennis Association. We're going to have an actual union in place where we can, you know, do what unions do and stick up for ourselves.

23:02Chuck Bryant:Yes. They threatened to boycott like pretty much immediately after they formed the WTA. They said that they were going to boycott the U.S. Open if we don't get equal prize money for women and men. And I believe that was successful. They got the U.S. Open to agree. and it was, this is like, things are moving along for women's equality in tennis at this time, right? So it's a huge focus of conversation with tennis.

23:32Josh Clark:I mean, it was all over the media. Everywhere you looked, it was about sort of equal pay, equal rights. And that was in the regular world. And all of a sudden it was now like in the sports world in a big way.

23:42Chuck Bryant:Well put.

23:44Josh Clark:So now we can talk a little bit about our, our, I'm going to put it in scare quotes, our villain, Mr. Bobby Riggs, who was, I tell you what, man, I mean, if you, it is very Andy Kaufman-esque. If you watch interviews with this guy, he's not, if he's nothing, he is entertaining.

24:01Chuck Bryant:For sure. He was a true great tennis player at one time shortly after World War II. I think he was the number one men's player in 1946 and 1947. And not just from like December to January, like both of those years. Right.

24:18Josh Clark:Yeah.

24:19Chuck Bryant:Um, so he had, you know, the, the, um, goods to back up like this. It wasn't just some, some dude who had a tennis racket, but after the late forties, he essentially like left the tour and he started hustling and, um, taking bets from essentially anybody who would, who would play him in tennis pool. Um, we, I think you saw a 60 Minutes clip where he was gambling on throwing cards into a wastebasket. Like, he would bet on anything. There was a quote in that 60 Minutes clip where he said, he likes to play for big money. If he can't play for big money, he'll play for small money. If I can't play for small money, I won't get out of bed that day.

25:04Chuck Bryant:Like, that's just what that guy did. He gambled, he hustled, and he was known as a loudmouth too. But he also seems to be fairly loved, essentially. He was like one of those people that you just kind of, you couldn't help but like, even though, yeah, he was a loud mouth and trying to get you to bet him some money.

25:23Josh Clark:Yeah, he was a troll. Livia called him a pre-internet troll, and that's exactly what he was. It seemed like a bit of an act and a bit of a shtick to get attention, like we said, but he would say things, you know, a woman's place is in the kitchen in the bedroom and not necessarily in that order or women play 25 % as good as men. So they should get 25 % of the money men get. Um, I was reading, I think it was a, uh, Oh, was it Esquire or something? An article about him. And the whole idea of playing Billy Jean King was birthed when I think a reporter was just talking to him about, you know, can men beat women or who could beat, um, Billy Jean King in tennis and he said i think any guy in the top 100 could beat billy jean king and he went in fact i think i could beat her and that's sort of when he seemed to hatch this idea for publicity and money yeah he was like oh but there's good action there yeah totally he um so yes so like he said

26:22Chuck Bryant:these things actually at least one of those quotes is from one of his autobiographies yeah so like he wrote this stuff down he wasn't this wasn't just stuff he started saying when he decided to play Billie Jean King. He was already known as a male chauvinist. Yes, he was an attention hound. And this is, again, a way that he figured out how to do this. So he started publicly challenging Billie Jean King. He's like in his mid-50s. She's in her late 20s prime. And she's like, no, that's okay. I'm too busy. And again, remember, like she was genuinely tireless organizing the Virginia Slim circuit and like creating the Women's Tennis Association, all the while winning all of these championships and grand slams.

27:04Chuck Bryant:So she had a legitimate excuse, like, I'm too busy. The thing is, is there was also like a case you could make that she saw very clearly, like, I don't know if I have that much to gain by playing this, and I have a lot to lose for the women's movement. I could easily set it back if I lose. So she had good reason to kind of avoid this as long as she could.

27:28Josh Clark:yeah uh it's sort of a lose-lose proposition for her um if she beats him everyone's like well of course she beat this old man right and that's how he probably would have played it up as and well we'll see what happened but uh and if she loses that's of course like looks terrible to be beaten by the old man right so she was wise to avoid it i think um but there was another woman uh in fact she was the uh i think she was the number one player in the world a women's player in 1973 named Margaret Court, an Aussie. And she was like, she wasn't super active in the politics of women's sports. And she was like, yeah, sure, I'll play them.

28:04Josh Clark:She stepped right up. And in May of 1973, this was in San Diego or outside San Diego, they played a three-set match for$10 ,000 and about 10 million people. A lot of people tuned into the first one on CBS. 3 ,500 people were there live. And he beat her. He beat her 6-2, 6-1 by playing, I want to say a certain thing, but I can't. He was playing like a punk. Oh, yeah. He's playing junk shots and like drop shots. And he wasn't playing like sort of real tennis. He was playing sort of joke tennis. And when you're playing against a player that can hit aggressive, strong shots and you're just plunking them over the net, like it's going to, you can't play tennis that way if you're a real player.

28:48Josh Clark:And it threw her off her game. She got in his head. I think the moment was a little too big for her. I don't think she realized how much attention there was going to be. And she ended up getting beat pretty badly.

28:58Chuck Bryant:Yeah, he got in her head, right? Yeah. So, yes, it's called the Mother's Day Massacre because it was held on Mother's Day. And, I mean, it was really bad. But there's a point that I want you to hang on to for later. As much of a punk as he played, he didn't play actual serious tennis. He was playing jokey tennis to win. He took that match very seriously. He trained for months ahead of time. He was playing or training like 10 to 12 hours a day every day. He really trained. And by the time he was, by the time the game came around, he knew he was going to beat Margaret Court. So just keep that in mind how hard he trained for that, okay?

29:37Josh Clark:Yeah, and also we should point out like at the very beginning of that match to open it up, he presented her with a bouquet of roses and she curtsied back to him. and Billie Jean King is watching this just like, you know, furious inside. Like she's like, oh, he's playing. And she in fact said later that she played right into his hands there and I would have grabbed him and kissed him. If he gets dirty, I can get tough too. So she hated the fact that Margaret Court went out there and sort of curtsied to him and took the roses and then lost on national TV, I guess international TV. And so she was like, all right, you know what?

30:14Josh Clark:I'm going to do it. I'm going to step up and I'm going to play Bobby Riggs. It's my turn.

30:18Chuck Bryant:Yeah. So she agreed to do this and it became immediately buzzworthy, I guess, is what you would call it if you're into that kind of thing.

30:28Josh Clark:That's right. The liver versus the lobber is how they dubbed it.

30:32Chuck Bryant:Yeah. So, like I said, it's immediately generating buzz. Bobby Riggs starts giving television interviews to any camera that will stand still long enough. And he's a magnet for that kind of stuff because, again, he's a loudmouth. He's saying horrible things about women. He's accepting like the male chauvinist pig moniker, like with pride or whatever. And he's just like one of those, like he would talk a mile a minute. He had so much energy. He was just a little, a little kind of squirrely guy. Kind of like Richard Simmons. Did you ever see Richard Simmons when he would go on Letterman? Oh, yeah.

31:08Chuck Bryant:Okay. So. It was great. The way that Letterman kind of regarded Richard Simmons affectionately, but also like this guy, he's moving around a lot. Yeah, yeah. It was he was like that, but amped up on like speed, essentially. So he was a magnet for cameras and he was giving interviews all over the place. Yeah.

31:25Josh Clark:And he was also, you know, he's adding hype for the event, obviously, by saying things like, you know, she's a woman. They don't have the emotional stability. She'll choke. He added more stakes. He said that he would jump from the London Bridge in Arizona or the Pasadena Bridge if he lost. And, you know, he was all over the place. He was on the cover of Time magazine that year in September. It was a caricature of him wearing a male chauvinist badge. And then there was a picture of a pig and a banner that said the happy hustler. So it was all working exactly as he planned. But Billie Jean King, like if he took that first match seriously, he didn't take this one as seriously.

32:05Josh Clark:and Billie Jean King was really taking it seriously.

32:08Chuck Bryant:Yeah, I'm not sure if he was just, you know, resting on his laurels because of how badly he beat Margaret Court that he just assumed that that was going to translate into playing Billie Jean King. But he did not train nearly as much as he did for Margaret Court. Essentially, he was out partying in the lead up to all of this. He was also really, really getting more and more offensive as things went on, right?

32:36Josh Clark:Oh, you're going to leave this one for me? Yeah, one of the things he did was he showed up to practice one day with the cameras there with holes cut out in his shirt so his nipples could show. And he said that Billie Jean King would look better in this. And she came out in public and she was like, this guy is a creep, which was, you know, about as tough as you could be in language back then. Yeah, and he was publicly.

33:01Chuck Bryant:And it was at a press conference with them together. And he said, well, you should take that back. And she said, nope, creep stands. And she said later, I saw in an interview, she said that, like, she didn't take him seriously, but she knew that there were men out there that took him seriously and that he had crossed a line. And she needed to make sure that that was demonstrated that she was not OK with that one.

33:23Josh Clark:Yeah, I think she kind of played it all just right. It was really pretty savvy stuff on her end.

33:28Chuck Bryant:Yeah, for sure. So I say we take, is this our second break? Yeah, second break. All right. So the gun is going to go off when we come back.

34:03Chuck Bryant:and unapologetic Aquarian visionary. Aquarius is all about freedom loving and different perspectives. And I find a lot of people with strong placements in Aquarius like are misunderstood. A sun and Venus in Aquarius in her seventh house spark her unconventional approach to partnership. He really has taught me to embrace people sleeping in different rooms on different houses in different places, but just an embracing of the is-ness of it all. If you're navigating your own transformation or just want a chart-side view into how a leading artist integrates astrology, creativity, and real life, this episode is a must-listen.

34:41Chuck Bryant:Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Segregation in the day, integration at night.

34:54Josh Clark:When segregation was the law, one mysterious Black club owner had his own rules.

34:59Chuck Bryant:We didn't worry about what went on outside. It was like stepping in another world.

35:05Josh Clark:Inside Charlie's place, black and white people danced together. But not everyone was happy about it.

35:12Chuck Bryant:You saw the KKK? Yeah, they were dressed up in their uniform. The KKK set out to raid Charlie, take him away from here. Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him.

35:30Josh Clark:From Atlas Obscura, Rococo Punch, and Visit Myrtle Beach comes Charlie's Place, a story that was nearly lost to time. Until now. Listen to Charlie's Place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

35:49Chuck Bryant:Ever feel like you're being chased by the marriage police?

35:55Chuck Bryant:Welcome to Boys and Girls, the podcast where dating isn't dating. Arranged marriage is basically a reality show, except the contestants are strangers and your entire family is judging. You're sipping coffee with one maybe, grabbing dinner with another, and praying your karmic Ken or Barbie appears before your shelf life runs out. Trust me, I've been through this ancient and unshakable tradition. I jumped in, hoping to find love the right way, and instead I found chaos, cringe and comedy. And now, I'm looking for healing. Boys and Girls dives into every twist and turn of the arranged marriage carousel.

36:35Chuck Bryant:The meet awkward, the near misses, the heartbreak, and let's not forget all the jokes.

36:43Chuck Bryant:Listen to Boys and Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

37:07Chuck Bryant:I wonder how many people are like, what is he talking about when he keeps saying the gun is going to go off whenever Act 3 comes around? Well, I would say study your Chekhov friend.

37:16Josh Clark:That's right. And not your Chekhov friend, your Chekhov, comma, friend.

37:21Chuck Bryant:Right. Not the friend that you're like, I got to hang out with him. And then you do real quick, you check him off your to-do list. Not that guy.

37:29Josh Clark:Yeah, we all have Chekhov friends.

37:31Chuck Bryant:Yeah, I'm sure I'm a lot of people's Chekhov friends.

37:34Josh Clark:No, no, no, no, no. All right, so where are we? Are we at match time, basically, which was turned into a complete circus, by the way?

37:41Chuck Bryant:Yes, this is September 20th, 1973. It's at the Houston Astrodome. Oh, man. 30 ,000 people showed up in person to see this. I saw all over the place, including Britannica, that 90 million people watched it around the world.

37:57Josh Clark:That's yeah, I think Livia had 50 million people, but I watched an interview with her with I mean, serious journalist. It was it was Kathy Lee and Hoda. And they said 90 million and they were just drunk on white wine at nine in the morning or whatever. So I trust them.

38:15Chuck Bryant:Man, that was a weird time, wasn't it?

38:17Josh Clark:It was a very weird time. I did want to point out that I looked up. I was like, well, how many people see a tennis tournament at like the grandest stage and center court at Wimbledon? And it's about 15 ,000 people. So this was double that.

38:29Chuck Bryant:Wow. Yeah. Plus it was in the beautiful new Astrodome. So. Oh, yeah.

38:34Josh Clark:So great.

38:35Chuck Bryant:So the odds were very much in favor on Bobby Riggs. Odds were six to one that Riggs would win. Mm-hmm. And this was like the whole thing was kind of presented in the media as like the battle of the sexes thing, the man versus woman. and every juvenile joke or, you know, quip or whatever you could make out of that. That is how the whole thing was being promoted. That's how it was being played up in the media. It was not like this is a very serious thing that they set women's rights back or move them forward. None of that was in there. It was all just this almost tongue-in-cheek approach to it. And that's how the whole thing, if you were a viewer, that's what you were kind of shown.

39:24Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. And that's a good thing to point out. Hollywood was involved. There were a lot of actors and singers and stuff that were in a celebrity tournament beforehand. They were really milking it. When they came in, the University of Houston band performed the song Conquest, which is an anthem from the 1947 movie Captain from Castile. That's when Bobby Riggs came in. They played Helen Reddy's I Am Woman when Billie Jean King came in. And Livia pointed out that John Wayne, Bill Cosby, and OJ Simpson were in attendance. And I had probably 13 different comments or jokes written out for that.

40:05Josh Clark:But I'm just going to let that trio stand without comment. Stands on its own. Yeah, I think so.

40:11Chuck Bryant:So ABC made a fat$1.2 million off of ads for this match. Yeah. Astrodome got about half that and people paying admission price.

40:24Josh Clark:Yeah.

40:25Chuck Bryant:And the so with the Margaret Court Mother's Day Massacre game that was played under women's rules in that there were three sets. That's how women's tennis matches are played. Three sets. Men's tennis matches are played five sets. Billie Jean King was like, no, we're going to play five sets. Best of five, essentially.

40:44Josh Clark:I love it.

40:44Chuck Bryant:So there were five. Which is smart. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Another thing that you'll see that's happened recently is sometimes a woman's court might be smaller than the man's court, which makes it harder for the man to land a ball in bounds.

41:03Josh Clark:Like in a battle of the sexes match.

41:04Chuck Bryant:Yes, thank you. There was nothing like that. This was like a men's match that Billie Jean King was playing against Bobby Riggs. Oh, yeah.

41:12Josh Clark:Well, she was like, I got this 55-year-old guy. Like, he wants the three-set match. So we're going to go five because I'm in great shape. Right. Bobby Riggs enters on a carriage pulled by women that are outfitted as Bobby's bosom buddies. How did Billie Jean King come in?

41:29Chuck Bryant:She came in on basically a platform carried by men in togas. I also saw as Egyptians, like Egyptian servants. they were shirtless essentially and they were brawny dudes so like probably not her idea no but she was going along with it right yeah she played along yeah we were saying that she was taking it seriously and she was but she was also like willing to play along with this too like she wasn't just some like stick in the mud you know yeah totally so um just very appropriately bobby uh riggs was sponsored by sugar daddy candy right and uh he presented billy jean king with a two foot long sugar daddy.

42:09Chuck Bryant:Remember those? They would just pull your fillings right out of your head.

42:13Josh Clark:Totally.

42:13Chuck Bryant:And so King was like, oh, I have a gift for you too. It was a piglet that she named Bobby Riggs because he was a male chauvinist pig. And don't worry about the pig. She coordinated with the promoter, Jerry Perenchio, very legendary promoter, that the pig would not be eaten or harmed, it would go to live on a farm afterward. And it did.

42:37Josh Clark:That says everything you need to know about Billie Jean King.

42:40Chuck Bryant:Yeah. Yeah.

42:41Josh Clark:She thought of everything.

42:42Chuck Bryant:She did. She crossed her T's and dotted her oinks.

42:45Josh Clark:That's right. So, of course, it's 1973. So you want to get the best in the business at the time to do the play-by-play. So they got none other than Howard Cosell. Initially, they had a tennis promoter and anti-feminist named Jack Kramer, who was going to do, they're versus she commentary and he was going to be on rig side and one of the original nine uh rosie casals was going to be on billy jean king's side uh but kramer and this also speaks to billy jean king he was one of the guys behind that original tournament that they uh that they um protested and wouldn't play in the pacific southwest open where they said oh yeah well we're going to ban you then so she was like i'm hey this is all fun and games and everything but if that jerk is involved i'm not even going to do this so they pulled uh kramer off the um off the broadcast

43:36Chuck Bryant:yeah and they didn't have rosie casal speak too and i'm really glad they didn't do that that's i mean that's it's a gimmick and it's understandable but it would have made the whole thing suck they brought in gene scott who was the publisher of tennis week and he just gave commentary like it was a regular tennis match which is kind of what you wanted in this one

43:56Josh Clark:Agreed.

43:57Chuck Bryant:So, I mean, imagine Dennis Miller and Dennis Miller calling a tennis match. You don't want that.

44:05Josh Clark:Yeah.

44:05Chuck Bryant:I mean, think about it. Whose idea was it to put him on Monday Night Football? On the one hand, it's brilliant. On the other, it's like, what?

44:13Josh Clark:Yeah, that was weird.

44:14Chuck Bryant:But it lasted for years, too. It's not like it was a couple of games. Yeah.

44:19Josh Clark:No, I think it was a full season, wasn't it?

44:21Chuck Bryant:I think it was more than that.

44:23Josh Clark:Oh, was it? Yeah. Yeah, that was weird.

44:24Chuck Bryant:Yeah. Yeah. So the game is on, essentially. That's the point we've reached here.

44:30Josh Clark:That's right. So Bobby Riggs takes a 3-2 lead in the first set. And later on, Billie Jean King would say, like, I was in trouble. I knew I was making some mistakes. I was in my head a little bit, and I knew that I could not give this first set away, basically. Like, he needed to get that set for his psychological standing. and so that first set was so so important for her so she knew that she had to win it she was down three two and she came back and beat him and won that first set six to four which was a huge blow

45:04Chuck Bryant:to his psyche yeah she said that she could tell that that had gotten to him when they switched sides um so she also changed her playing style normally she would be like she'd want to win the point as quickly and efficiently as possible. Instead, she started drawing ballies out and basically put the ball in one corner and then put the ball in the other corner. So she had this old man running back and forth, chasing down these balls to purposefully tire him out. I mean, that's just so cool that people are capable of doing that, you know, like I want the ball to go right here. So I'm going to go right there with this racket, even though the ball's coming at me at 70

45:41Josh Clark:miles an hour yeah for sure so she wore him out uh by the end he was talking about hand cramps uh the the levity had kind of lessened um because like you said this 55 year old was an old old man

45:57Chuck Bryant:right so remember we so old right not 54 55 okay okay i got a couple more weeks so um billy jean king won and she won like convincingly six four six three six three so remember best out of five she beat him in three straight sets yeah um and she got her hundred thousand check from no uh less than george foreman yeah who i read had hoped to use bobby riggs the pig to demonstrate his new type of indoor grill but was disappointed that he wasn't allowed to oh no um and so this was it was just an immediate splash. Remember, this is a media spectacle. Everybody knows about this. 90 million people are watching.

46:38Chuck Bryant:So the media just got right in on it again to let everybody know Billie Jean King won and let's celebrate her as a pro tennis player. And that's it.

46:49Josh Clark:That's right. I think we know Josh's coy voice by now. That's not at all how it was reported. Of course, they kept reporting sort of in the lowest common denominator way. The AP said that screaming delirious women's livers lit up more brightly than the rocket-shooting Astrodome scoreboard. Even my beloved New York Times said King collapsed tears in her eyes and her husband's arms, adding later, all of a sudden, she was a champion, a woman, and a little girl all at the same time.

47:18Chuck Bryant:That one brings, like, my eyes water from that one.

47:22Josh Clark:Yeah, that's tough.

47:23Chuck Bryant:That's so much worse than the Astrodome scoreboard, right? Right. I mean, neither one are great. Yeah. That one is just like, they meant that. They were trying to like really be poignant there. And it's just like, good God.

47:35Josh Clark:Yeah. They missed the mark.

47:36Chuck Bryant:The thing about Bobby Riggs is he wasn't like, well, she, you know, she obviously is some freak woman who beat me. That's the only woman who could beat me. He did the opposite. He accepted the defeat with dignity and grace. Yeah. We saw that coming. He had a thing where he hopped over the net, win or lose, after the end of every match. And he did. He hopped right over the net and went up to her and he said confidentially to her that he underestimated her. And then in the press conference, he went on to basically say the same thing. Like, she beat him very clearly.

48:12Josh Clark:Yeah. He said she was too strong for me. There have since been rumors that he threw the match as a gambler with six to one odds against, that he threw the match and bet against himself. There was a report in, I think, 2013 ESPN dug into that and that there were like mafia figures he was working with to rig the odds. We'll never know the truth, but Bobby Riggs said he didn't throw it. Billie Jean King said that I don't think he threw it like she could tell what was going on emotionally on that court and could tell that he wanted to win and that he was losing. um you know he might not have prepared like he should have and i guess we'll never know the truth

48:53Chuck Bryant:but uh my money's on she she beat him yeah mine too but there's there's the that rumor does have legs like he did hang out with mob guys he was a huge gambler the idea was that this he was indebted to the mob like 100 grand for in gambling debts and they would wipe it clean if he threw this and that he was also betting on himself. Um, and his son said, it's possible. I don't really think that's true, but it's possible. Although his best friend is like, I won't even entertain that that's possible. Like he just didn't do that. Yeah. But one of the things that people point to is he was making some terrible mistakes during the game.

49:32Chuck Bryant:So either she got in his head and he was rattled or he was throwing it. It just seems like the general consensus is that now he, it seems pretty fringe that to to genuinely believe that he threw the match yeah i agree

49:47Josh Clark:um which i i saw bits of that movie i never saw the whole thing um the casting was incredible like steve carell and emma stone were kind of perfect uh i don't think the movie was reviewed like super favorably but it looked okay it's supposedly very true to life actually yeah yeah billy jean king at least she told hoda and kathy lee that it was pretty true to life she said that She said they got the essence of it. She said it's a movie, of course, but they nailed the essence.

50:15Chuck Bryant:Man, have you seen Begonia?

50:17Josh Clark:Oh, boy. Yeah.

50:18Chuck Bryant:That is one of my new favorite movies. That is so good. I did not like, I can never remember his name. What is it?

50:24Josh Clark:I'm glad you watched that. Oh, Jesse Plemons?

50:26Chuck Bryant:No, no, no. The director.

50:28Josh Clark:Oh, oh, oh.

50:30Chuck Bryant:Jorgos Lanthimos? Thank you. Wasn't that him? Let me try saying it, too. Jorgos Lanthimos. I don't think I've ever tried it because I've always been like, I'm going to screw this up.

50:38Josh Clark:well I might have screwed it up but that's what I said

50:40Chuck Bryant:I don't think so I think you got it anyway I did not like poor things and I was like I don't know because I liked everything leading up to that but not this and then I saw this I'm like he's back

50:52Josh Clark:it's a great movie I told you I texted you to see Kinds of Kindness too have you seen that one yet?

50:56Chuck Bryant:I still have not no I've been watching just tons of riff tracks

51:00Josh Clark:it's hard to get out of that cycle once you get in alright so back to this after the Battle of the Sexes. After this, he wanted to kind of keep the media spotlight on him. So he tried to jump off the London Bridge in Arizona, but the sheriff there, so like he can't do that. So he had his picture taken on the lake below it in a raft. Billie Jean King went on to just keep being Billie Jean King. In 1974, she founded the Women's Sports Foundation, which is a nonprofit for women's and girls and athletics. And she would end up sort of very publicly coming out of the closet after being married for a long time to a guy, not the Larry King, but her Larry King.

51:46Josh Clark:In 1981, her longtime manager and assistant, Marilyn Barnett, it was very sad what happened. She filed a lawsuit against her, which revealed their affair that she had from they had from 72 to 79, because she had fallen from a balcony of Billie Jean King's house in Malibu and lost the use of her legs and said that, hey, Billie Jean King promised to give me that house and support me financially. So she took her to court and it got really messy.

52:14Chuck Bryant:Yeah, I saw. So the fall from the house in Malibu I saw was an attempted suicide and that she had blackmailed, Marilyn Barnett had blackmailed Larry King and Billie Jean King before the lawsuit basically said, hey, if you don't want this to come out. Let's settle before I actually go public with it. They didn't. She went public with it. And then to her great credit, after being outed in 1980, what? 81. Billie Jean King said, you know what? We'd never promised her the Malibu house, but yes, I'm gay. Larry and I have an open marriage and we're actually going to stay together for the time being. And they stayed together until 1987.

52:56Chuck Bryant:And they divorced because Billie Jean King fell for Ilana Kloss, a fellow tennis player. And they ended up getting married in 2018. So this is enormous. She was outed. She hadn't outed herself. Her choice to do so was removed, but she stood behind it. She didn't deny it. She didn't deny who she was. She said, yep, I'm gay.

53:19Josh Clark:Yeah, it was pretty great. As far as the quality and pay in pro sports, that's obviously still a thing. It was 2007 when all the Grand Slams agreed to pay women equally in tennis, and they still don't in some of the other big events. I think just a couple of years ago, the 2024 Canadian Open, there was a$5.9 million pool for the men and$2.5 million pool for women. And if, you know, if you come back with an argument of like, yeah, well, you know, the men's events are, they get more viewers and more advertising because they're in those better time slots. Then you kind of just said it yourself. It's a lot of it has to do with the fact that they're in those better time slots and they tend to schedule the women's events in lesser time slots.

54:05Josh Clark:And so they don't get as much advertising. They don't have, you know, a great maternity leave and professional tennis for women. So it's, you know, there's still battles to be fought. But Billie Jean King is still out there fighting them.

54:18Chuck Bryant:One last little thing, Chuck, that always struck me before he died in 1995. I think like the night before he died, Billie Jean King visited Bobby Riggs to say goodbye. Yeah. Yeah.

54:35Josh Clark:It was pretty great. They had a lifelong, you know, tie and friendship.

54:39Chuck Bryant:So that's it. That's the battle of the sexists. It was great. How about that?

54:45Josh Clark:Yeah.

54:46Chuck Bryant:I feel like Tim Robbins in Anchorman. Remember, he's like, you know, we at PBS are really down with women's lip.

54:55Josh Clark:Yeah. Also, Steve Carell was in that.

54:58Chuck Bryant:Yeah. He loves Lamp.

55:00Josh Clark:He loves Lamp.

55:01Chuck Bryant:Since Chuck said he loves Lamp, I tricked him into it. He just unlocked listener mail.

55:08Josh Clark:Yeah, this is a listener mail where I'm going to apologize to Aoife from Ireland because apparently we have here and there dabbled in Irish erasure in our show, which is something that is a total accident and something that I'm going to be more aware of moving forward. And here's the email. Hi, guys. Longtime listener here. I'm so sad to hear two Irish erasure moments in one episode. In the third man syndrome episode, you use the example of the endurance expedition to show how it works. And you called Ernest Shackleton British. And if I'm not wrong, also Tom Crean. But both men were reborn in Irish.

55:47Josh Clark:Shackleton was born in Kilke County, Kildare. Did I say that right? I think I did. You said Kilke. Yeah, Kilke, County Kildare, just under an hour from Dublin City. And Crean was born in Anaskal, County Kerry. This is a sore spot for Irish people as we are so often called British and we don't take it so well. Example, look up Cillian Murphy, also being called British. But we will forgive you, however. And that is from Aoife. And Aoife, that is me being an ignorant person. and I certainly know there's a difference and I have a hard time keeping track sometimes, but I need to do better at that. So apologies.

56:31Chuck Bryant:Nice work, Chuck. I'm sure I've done that before too. So I want to apologize too.

56:35Josh Clark:Great, two apologies in one.

56:38Chuck Bryant:Yes, and who is that from?

56:39Josh Clark:That was from Aoife, spelled A-O-I-F-E.

56:43Chuck Bryant:Beautiful. Thanks a lot, Aoife. And if you want to be like Aoife and call us out on something, we stand for that. you can send it in an email to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.

57:00Josh Clark:Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app.

57:06Chuck Bryant:Apple Podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

57:16Chuck Bryant:When segregation was a law, one mysterious black club owner, Charlie Fitzgerald, had his own rules. Segregation in the day, integration at night. It was like stepping on another world. Was he a businessman, a criminal, a hero? Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him.

57:37Josh Clark:Charlie's Place, from Atlas Obscura and Visit Myrtle Beach. Listen to Charlie's Place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

57:45Chuck Bryant:On June 11th, 1998, a deputy from the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department went missing. Hey, if they'll kill a cop and bury them, what are they going to do to me? What really happened to the missing deputy?

57:59Josh Clark:Valley of Shadows, a new series from Pushkin Industries about crime and corruption in California's high desert.

58:07Chuck Bryant:Listen to Valley of Shadows on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

58:36Chuck Bryant:I'm telling you, I was a spy.

58:38Josh Clark:Listen to The Secret World of Roald Dahl on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.