In short
The Colorado River Compact (1922) and the “law of the river” governing Colorado River water sharing among U.S. basin states (upper vs lower) and Mexico, amid long-term drought and shrinking flows.
Guests
No episode guests. Hosts Josh, Chuck, and Jerry discuss the topic; listener suggestion credited to George Baumchen; listener mail from Vicki Reed.
Key claims
The compact was based on an overly high water-supply estimate (16.4 million acre-feet/year) using a single Yuma-based hydrology study, overstretching supply from the start. Today the river’s flow is reduced (about 80% vs the 1990s), and conservation alone isn’t enough. The 2026 renegotiation deadline was missed; federal options (including enforcing prior appropriation) may be used.
Notable examples
Lee Ferry as the measurement dividing line; Hoover/Boulder Dam and Imperial Dam/All-American Canal; Arizona’s delayed signing (1944); Arizona v. California (1963) surplus split; Central Arizona Project; Lake Mead/Lake Powell “deadpool” risk; 2019 drought contingency plan; 2024 basin-state proposals split upper vs lower approaches.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOImportance of the Colorado River
2:15 to 4:15
Explore the critical role the Colorado River plays in the southwest U.S.
“We're talking about the compact of water sharing among those states, the basin states, they call them, which is a pretty cool name.”
Historical Context of Water Sharing
4:15 to 6:50
Understand the historical agreements that govern water use in the region.
“By having access to that water, they've been able to boom like cities like Las Vegas, Los Angeles, San Diego, Phoenix, Tucson.”
Hoover's Role in Water Management
6:50 to 9:30
Discover Herbert Hoover's influence on the management of river resources.
“So as far as the upper and the lower basin, the lower basin areas were really exploding at the time.”
Details of the River Compact
9:30 to 14:02
Learn how the Colorado River Compact was structured and its implications.
“So he steps in and says, hey, guys, we need to figure out what's going on here.”
Understanding Acre Feet and Water Allocation
14:02 to 17:30
Learn about the concept of acre feet and how water rights are allocated among states and Mexico.
“almost 50 % each, 7.5 million acre feet per basin in perpetuity with the rest left over for Mexico.”
The Complexity of Stakeholder Interests
17:31 to 18:32
Explore the overlooked interests of Native American tribes in the Colorado River Compact.
“We're hitting the road again, starting in January 2026, picking up again in April 2026, and eventually, Canada, we'll tell you your dates, too.”
Historical Disputes over Water Rights
18:32 to 22:25
Discover the historical disputes between Arizona and California over water rights and the implications for future water use.
“So you can imagine that there was a lot of problems once they came up with this proposed plan to get everybody on board.”
The Law of the River: Treaties and Compacts
22:26 to 28:00
Understand the complex legal framework governing the Colorado River and its use among states and tribes.
“Because like you said, all those tributaries branch together and come together at Lee Ferry and then branch out again.”
The Colorado River's Water Supply Issues
28:00 to 30:08
Learn about the challenges in estimating the Colorado River's water supply and its implications.
“This is, if you don't know where Yuma is, it's hundreds of miles downstream from Lee Ferry.”
Agriculture and Water Consumption
30:08 to 31:39
Explore how agricultural practices impact water usage in the Colorado River basin.
“And as a result, the Colorado River shrunk to 80 % of its flow compared to, I think, the 1990s.”
Show all 13 chapters
The Deadpool State and Hydropower Concerns
31:39 to 33:38
Understand the concept of 'deadpool' and the risks to hydropower generation in the Colorado River system.
“You could just go up and be like, I want some land, please.”
Negotiating the Future of Water Management
33:38 to 35:08
Delve into the negotiations among basin states to address water management and conservation efforts.
“Yes, and the upper basin said, no, we're not going to go along with that.”
Federal Intervention and Water Policy
35:08 to 37:45
Learn about the potential federal intervention in state water management agreements.
“Yeah, but this was a - Hey, happy late anniversary.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Josh Clark:This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. When you think about protecting what matters, it's usually your family, your future, or the stability you've worked a lifetime to build, right? That's why Protective is here. They're on a mission to help more people achieve the sense of protection and financial security they deserve. Trusted by 32 million people, Protective is by your side with life insurance, retirement, employee benefit, and asset protection solutions. If you're wondering what protecting your future could look like, check out Protective.com to learn more. For more information and important disclosures, please visit Protective.com.
0:34Chuck Bryant:Hey, everybody, we're hitting the road again, starting in January 2026, picking up again in April 2026, and eventually, Canada, we'll tell you your dates, too.
0:44Josh Clark:That's right. We're going to do at least three legs, and the first leg is starting out in Denver, Colorado at the Paramount Theater on January 27th. We're going to go back to our beloved Seattle at the Paramount Theater there on the 28th, and then finally back at Sketchfest on the 29th at the Sidney Goldstein Theater.
1:00Chuck Bryant:Yep, and then April 16th, 17th, and 18th, we're going to be in Madison, Wisconsin, Chicago, Illinois, and Akron, Ohio. And if you're not keeping up with all this or taking notes, don't worry. You can get all the info you need and buy tickets at stuffyoushouldknow.com. Click on the tour button and thank us later.
1:18Josh Clark:That's right. We can't wait to see everybody again out there on the road.
1:25Josh Clark:Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, A production of iHeartRadio.
1:35Chuck Bryant:Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's here too, and we're just a few river rats hanging out, thinking about rivers and such.
1:43Josh Clark:That's right. If you live in Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona, or California, this one's for you.
1:53Chuck Bryant:Yeah. Or if you're interested in water supply, this one's for you as well. If you like really difficult interstate treaties, I think you'll like this one as well.
2:07Josh Clark:There's one person out there that's like, oh, my God, guys, finally.
2:13Chuck Bryant:So, yes, we're talking about the Colorado River. We're talking about the compact of water sharing among those states, the basin states, they call them, which is a pretty cool name. of sharing the water that comes out of the Colorado River, which is about almost a 1 ,500-mile-long river that winds through the southwestern U.S. all the way into Mexico. And it helps feed all of those states, most of which should not have the populations that they have and wouldn't otherwise were it not for their ability to tap into the water from the Colorado.
2:53Josh Clark:That's right. And by the way, I remembered halfway through your opening salvo that this was a listener suggestion. So I looked it up real quick. And this is from George Baumchen. Oh, nice. Thanks a lot, George. This is a good idea. Yeah, I agree. So I bet George lives in one of those states. But like you said, the Colorado River, very important. It provides, I think Julia helped us with this, and it supports roughly 10 % of Americans and$1.4 trillion economically. So it is a very, very important river system that starts there in the Rocky Mountains and then flows generally southwest. And there are all sorts of tributaries and things that feed into it.
3:40Josh Clark:As we'll see, that has become a bone of contention here and there. But a lot of it is there are bones of contention because this river compact that they forged in 1922 to say, hey, how are we going to divide this water up? Everybody wants to use this stuff. It's it's it's up now this year. Right. In 2026. Yeah. And they're trying to figure out, you know, what to do about the next 20 years. And there's especially between California and Arizona, but a lot of the states have bones of contention with one another on how this water is used.
4:14Chuck Bryant:Yeah, because there's almost a self-defeating pickle that they've been in just from sharing this. By having access to that water, they've been able to boom like cities like Las Vegas, Los Angeles, San Diego, Phoenix, Tucson. The list just goes on. they are able to have these huge populations in golf courses, in industry, in agriculture, in the Imperial Valley in California because of the Colorado River. So that's attracted more and more people, which means you need more and more water. So those bones of contention have grown over the years. And now that it's 100 plus years old, yeah, there's an issue.
4:55Chuck Bryant:There's a problem with this that we're going to see because this river is like, I can't take any more. Yeah.
5:03Josh Clark:Well, yeah. And we're going to get into that stuff too, because there's not as much water as they thought there would be. And it seems like it's getting, it's not coming back to the boom days for reasons that we're going to talk about. But one thing we should talk about is why water is so important out there. And obviously one of the reasons is because there's not much of it. Highs out in the desert can reach over 125 degrees with great regularity. Annual rainfall, this is near the Hoover Dam. And, you know, we did a great episode, I think, on the Hoover Dam. Between Nevada and Arizona, annual rainfall there is about four inches.
5:42Josh Clark:So the Colorado River is the thing. It's the most key thing that we have at our disposal to keep things alive.
5:50Chuck Bryant:Yeah, it's mother lifeblood life giver. That's what they call it there. So let's talk about the Hoover Dam. Not just the Hoover Dam. That one gets all of the credit. There's also the Imperial Dam, too, that diverts water to the All-American Canal, which is a very smart, I think, name because it's one of those things where if you dispute the water going there, they could be like, well, you don't like the All-American Canal? Do you hate America? Yeah, sure. So there's the Boulder Dam, now the Hoover Dam. And the Imperial Dam and both of those help bank water for what we know as the lower basin states.
6:30Chuck Bryant:And the upper basin states are the ones responsible for essentially filling those water banks.
6:36Josh Clark:That's right. So back when this, you know, in 1922, when this thing was first enacted and ratified, well, I guess it was ratified a little more slowly over time, as we'll see. But California and Arizona were developing much more so than places like, you know, Colorado and Wyoming. So as far as the upper and the lower basin, the lower basin areas were really exploding at the time. If you were closer to those headwaters, you didn't have those dams. There weren't opportunities to sort of divert that water to save up for the future, maybe. So all of that water was going downstream where they were collecting it and using it, which is sort of where the animosity began, I think.
7:22Chuck Bryant:Yeah, and the upstream states and groups that were using that water were like, well, wait a minute, we want water too. Like, what's going to happen? We need somebody to come in and figure out, like, how we can get our water too. And there was a Supreme Court decision that really scared the upper states, the upstream states, which was the doctrine of prior appropriation, which was applied to water rights. And the prior appropriation basically means if you were the first one to start using something, from that point on, you have seniority. So if you ever come up against a conflict between you and somebody else, if you're the senior one, you automatically get preference.
8:03Chuck Bryant:And California and Arizona had been using this water through water projects before, say, like Colorado or Wyoming or Utah. And that meant that they were going to get the short end of the stick no matter what, just because California and Arizona had these booming populations.
8:21Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. And, you know, to be clear, that Supreme Court decision was basically that that first in time, first in right, applied across the state lines. So, you're sharing this river, but they were using it. So, like, sorry, you can't now take that away from them, essentially. No. But, like you said, Colorado and Wyoming and other states, New Mexico, were like, well, we want to grow one day and do these big projects, too. We're just not there yet. It's 1922. Give us a break. So, they got together to negotiate this thing, the Colorado River Compact in Santa Fe, New Mexico, in November of 1922.
8:56Chuck Bryant:Nice.
8:57Josh Clark:Nuts and bolts-wise, it was kind of cool. It's the first time more than three U.S. states divided water among themselves. And we're going to talk a little bit more about the law of the river because it's got a lot of like tendrils to it. But that established what would evolve over time as what's called the law of the river.
9:15Chuck Bryant:Yeah, for sure. So here comes Herbert Hoover into our story. If you were waiting for Hoover to show up, by God, here he is. President? No, he was the secretary of commerce under President Warren G. Harding. But he did such a good job, he eventually became president and they renamed the Boulder Dam the Hoover Dam thanks to Herbert. Yeah. Right? Or because of Herbert. So he steps in and says, hey, guys, we need to figure out what's going on here. We need to figure out how to basically let these water-thirsty states do their projects because these are great projects, we can all agree. But at the same time, we need to make sure that these upstream groups, when they want to do their own projects, if they ever do, they'll have the water that they need.
9:59Chuck Bryant:But we want development throughout the system. That's the key, right? And most people don't know what Herbert Hoover sounds like, but that was an exact impersonation of what he sounded like and the way he talked.
10:11Josh Clark:Yeah, yeah. But here's the deal. He was like, you know, let's not divide it up by states. Let's not apportion it state by state because that just makes too much sense. He said, let's split up the Colorado River Basin into two equal parts and a lot equal amounts to each half. So you've got the upper basin and your lower basin allotments, and we'll talk about numbers here in a second. Sure. But within those, then you distribute by state. like you've got the upper portion splitting it between, I guess everything but California and Arizona, right? Aren't they the only two in the lower basin? No, Nevada, I think is as well.
10:52Josh Clark:Oh, Nevada, that's right. Okay.
10:53Chuck Bryant:Yeah.
10:55Josh Clark:So the one proposal that they initially came up with, though, kind of one of the key early things was they promised the lower basin, all right, you're going to get some extra water here because you've already got these projects. You're kind of grandfathered in because you've got these projects and developments underway. So you're going to get some extra water. And nobody really liked it. The lower basin didn't even like this idea to begin with.
11:20Chuck Bryant:No, Julia helped us with this. And she turned up a quote from one of the men who was involved in this compact in 1922. He was the one from the representative from New Mexico. He said, I will register my vote as a yes, but I do it only because to my mind, it as the least objectionable of the attempts that have been made to frame the idea expressed in it, and not because I approve it.
11:43Josh Clark:Yeah, he held his nose and voted yes.
11:45Chuck Bryant:Yeah, and he apparently was not the only one who did that. So they met 27 times. They finally signed the Colorado River Compact. And another great Hoover quote is that this was a problem of more extreme complexity than will ever be appreciated by the outside world. and just after researching this for a little bit, I kind of understand where he's coming from. The amount of stuff that you would have to take into consideration to do this even remotely fairly with your eye on development is just, I can't imagine keeping all that stuff together and coming up with it, let alone coming up with one that you could get seven different states to finally sign on.
12:30Josh Clark:There's no way. I mean, they all signed on, but like you said, no one really thought it was super fair. So the compact, like I said, divided things up into the upper and the lower basin. And that divide actually has a place, like a physical place, which is Lee Ferry, L-E-E-F-E-R-R-Y.
12:47Chuck Bryant:Not Lee Perry.
12:49Josh Clark:Not Lee Scratch Perry. That is at the border where the river passes from the upper watershed to the lower watershed. And that is where this really unique place, quite frankly, where all the tributaries upstream come together in this one beautiful single stream before splitting back up again to other branches on the other side. So they looked at that and said, hey, Lee Ferry looks like probably a pretty good spot to divide this into Colorado, Wyoming, New Mexico and Utah. And then like Josh would one day say, Arizona, California. And don't forget Nevada, Chuck. For sure.
13:25Chuck Bryant:um so yeah it's also just for you Grand Canyon uh fans it's not the same Lee's Ferry um this is
13:33Josh Clark:Lee Ferry and it's nowhere near it I think if you're a Grand Canyon fan you got to know that
13:38Chuck Bryant:by now you'd hope so but what if you're new to being a fan of the Grand Canyon you know you don't want to that's true I don't want to set them up to make fools of themselves around the campfire
Read the full transcript
13:50Josh Clark:so they this is one of the problems and we're going to talk about this later too but they did a little bit of research on water flow because they had to figure out like, all right, how much water is that even? And what they measured was 16.4 million acre feet, splitting that up into almost 50 % each, 7.5 million acre feet per basin in perpetuity with the rest left over for Mexico. And we're going to talk about that. But just so you know, a water, a one acre foot of water is enough water to submerge an acre of land to the depth of one foot.
14:25Chuck Bryant:I came up with that one.
14:27Josh Clark:I knew I wasn't going to have to make the joke.
14:30Chuck Bryant:I knew that you knew I was going to make that joke. You can't read that without thinking how Josh waters his lawn. That's how I would farm, too. I would just submerge the acres of land to the depth of a foot and be like, wow, I'm done with irrigating for the year.
14:44Josh Clark:That's right. Here's your rice and cranberries. So an acre of land at the depth of one foot or 325 ,851 gallons of water. So they measured 16.4 million acre feet of that and split it in half with the rest going to Mexico.
15:01Chuck Bryant:Yeah, Mexico is like, hey, what about us? And they're like, you get 1.5 million acre feet just from us as friends. Mexico, we love you guys. And they're like, oh, we love you back. So I think they split Mexico's allotment between the upper and the lower basin equally. Yeah. Right? There was also another group of stakeholders that kept getting overlooked and are still overlooked to some degree. And that are the Native American tribes whose reservations draw water from the Colorado River. And the only appearance they made in the compact was nothing in this compact shall be construed as affecting the obligations of the United States of America to Indian tribes.
15:40Josh Clark:What does that even mean?
15:41Chuck Bryant:It means that the Indian tribes are going to have to fend for themselves in court if they want any of this water. And apparently every time they did, the states, the Seven Basin states, at least some of them would lobby behind the scenes, use their clout to try to get the Native Americans from—to get them denied their access to the water. Of course they did. I think there are 30 tribes that have a claim on it. And right now, I think 23 are legally drawing water from the Colorado to fulfill their needs. But that means that seven have not had a chance to in over 100 years.
16:20Josh Clark:That's right. So as far as how this actually works, over a 10-year period, the upper basin has to deliver at least 75 million acre feet of water to the lower basin. And they measure it there at Lee Ferry. That's like, that's why the dividing point is there. They actually measure this water. And the upper basin can store whatever they have left over after they've delivered that to the lower basin and their portion to Mexico.
16:48Chuck Bryant:And then one other thing, you kind of already mentioned it. Those projects that were already underway were really close to being developed. They were allotted extra water until I think Lake Mead reached 5 million acre feet, the reservoir. So yeah, after that, it was like, nope, you get your water from the same allotment as everybody else.
17:12Josh Clark:That's right. And once those projects are done, like for all new projects, if you're in the lower basin, you got to start using your reserve or your allotment rather.
17:21Chuck Bryant:Yeah. I think that fan of complex interstate treaties is really happy right now.
17:27Josh Clark:I imagine so.
17:29Chuck Bryant:You want to take a break then? Yeah, let's do it. OK, we're taking a break.
17:45Chuck Bryant:Hey, everybody. We're hitting the road again, starting in January 2026, picking up again in April 2026, and eventually, Canada, we'll tell you your dates, too.
17:56Josh Clark:That's right. We're going to do at least three legs, and the first leg is starting out in Denver, Colorado, at the Paramount Theater on January 27th. We're going to go back to our beloved Seattle at the Paramount Theater there on the 28th, and then finally back at Sketchfest on the 29th at the Sydney Goldstein Theater.
18:11Chuck Bryant:Yep. And then April 16th, 17th, and 18th, we're going to be in Madison, Wisconsin, Chicago, Illinois, and Akron, Ohio. And if you're not keeping up with all this or taking notes, don't worry. You can get all the info you need and buy tickets at stuffyoushouldknow.com. Click on the tour button and thank us later.
18:30Josh Clark:That's right. We can't wait to see everybody again out there on the road.
18:47Chuck Bryant:So you can imagine that there was a lot of problems once they came up with this proposed plan to get everybody on board. And in fact, Arizona didn't sign on until 1944, like a couple decades later. Yeah. And the other six were like, OK, we need to just rewrite this a little bit so this can proceed forward without Arizona. And I guess Arizona and California have always had this standoff, this angry kind of tiff, a row, something like that over water rights. And California typically wins that one.
19:24Josh Clark:Yeah. What I couldn't find out is what did they do in the meantime?
19:28Chuck Bryant:I guess they just took as much water as they wanted.
19:31Josh Clark:Oh, OK. It's not like they said. That's my guess. Yeah. All right. That's the one thing I couldn't quite find.
19:37Chuck Bryant:Because, I mean, they wouldn't go like 20 years without water. They'd be like, well, we're just going to go without water. I would think not. I would guess they'd just take whatever they wanted. What I don't understand then is if they did that, why did they finally sign on if they had unlimited water, you know?
19:52Josh Clark:Yeah, that listener who is really into the river projects, they're going to write in, I'm sure.
19:56Chuck Bryant:Yeah, we need to hear from them.
19:58Josh Clark:All right. So now I promise to talk about the law of the river. That is the more complex set of laws and compacts and court decisions and contracts and all these guidelines and stuff that have been issued over the years. It's altogether called the Law of the River, but the Colorado River Compact is sort of the spine of this. But we do have to mention these because a lot of them have popped up over the years. There was the Boulder Canyon Project Act, which we previously mentioned in 1928, that officially ratified the River Compact. But that's where the Hoover Dam came from, Boulder Dam at the time, and that All-American Canal.
20:36Josh Clark:And that's when they officially apportioned everything out. Within that$7.5 million for each, Arizona got, for the lower basin that is, Arizona got$2.8 million. California got$4.4 million. Nevada got$0.3 million. Yeah, and the upper basin went with a percentage, right?
20:56Chuck Bryant:Yes. I think Colorado got the most at 51 % and Utah 23, New Mexico 11, and Wyoming 14, right? That's right. So that's how they finally got it apportioned. That upper basin, that wasn't until 1948 when they finally divided it all up. And one reason that that could wait is because even still today, those upper basin states use way less than their allotment of water. I think California uses more water than all of the upper basin states combined. Oh, I'm sure. Even though the allotment is different. Yeah. And I think that the upper basin states have basically had to bow to the idea of progress and just let the lower basin states use more than their allotment of water.
21:42Josh Clark:Yeah, that's right. There was another, and like you said, that was 1948 for the upper compact. 1963 comes along, you have Arizona v. California. where the decision was handed out. They were basically like, what do we do with the surplus water in the lower basin? And this decision said California and Arizona split it at 50-50. But also these five Native American reservations and some wildlife refuges and recreational areas, like they get some water too.
22:14Chuck Bryant:Yeah. There's also, you kind of mentioned how tributaries can become its own bone of contention or point of contention. And I guess California was using tributary water before it got to the Colorado River. Because like you said, all those tributaries branch together and come together at Lee Ferry and then branch out again. I guess California was just tapping into one. Like, don't mind us.
22:41Josh Clark:Yeah.
22:41Chuck Bryant:We're just taking upper basin water from one of the tributaries. And the court was like, that's fine. That doesn't count as Colorado River apportionment.
22:49Josh Clark:Yeah, that was 1964, right, with that decree?
22:53Chuck Bryant:Yeah, and Arizona went, California!
22:57Josh Clark:There was the Colorado River Basin Project Act of 1968. That basically just greenlit a bunch of projects on both sides, you know, both basins, upper and lower. But the key part of this one, I think, was it said, all right, if there are any overcap reserves during water shortages, California gets the rights to those.
23:17Chuck Bryant:Yeah, because they had the earliest projects. So they had that first in, first right thing. Also, that act created the Central Arizona Project, which brought water to Phoenix and Tucson. And the population of Arizona doubled since 1993 when the Central Arizona Project was finally completed. Wow. Doubled because of the water that was diverted to Arizona from the Colorado River. Yeah.
23:44Josh Clark:I mean, it's gorgeous out there. I lived out there. People always loved Arizona, but they were thirsty. So this really helped out.
23:50Chuck Bryant:Yeah, for sure. It gets kind of dry out there. Yeah.
23:54Josh Clark:I lived in Yuma, and, you know, that's where, well, we'll see. Yuma plays a part. Huge part. Surprise pop-up appearance by Yuma coming up, everybody.
24:02Chuck Bryant:Yep. Let's see. There's also review, mandated reviews every five years. The Department of the Interior was directed to take over managing this thing. And then in 1973, thanks to the Nixon administration, of all people, The Endangered Species Act basically said you need to prioritize environmental protection over development projects when they conflict, which, wow, like, is that still in force?
24:30Josh Clark:Yeah, probably not. One thing they decided to do in 1974 was give Mexico better water. So the Colorado River Basin Salinity Control Act said, all right, let's get some salinity control going over the water that we're sending down to Mexico. So, you know, they need good water down there.
24:50Chuck Bryant:And then along came a drought, a drought that lasted from the year 2000 in the year 2000 to 2023. And by 2007, the basin states were like, hey, hey, the river's not flowing quite as much as it used to. So they got together and they basically like, we need to coordinate these discharges from Lake Mead and Lake Powell down to the lower basin states. Because these allotments, the river's not keeping up with the allotments anymore. We need to rethink this. And they started to really take notice of this change that the river was undergoing starting in 2007. And since then, it's just gotten worse and worse and become more and more critical.
25:39Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. That led to 2019 with a drought contingency plan, which is basically just like, hey, we all need to work together with conservation here because this drought is murdering us.
25:51Chuck Bryant:Yeah, that meeting was like when they cut to the control tower in airplane and everybody's just losing their minds. Yeah, that's what that meeting was.
26:01Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure.
26:02Chuck Bryant:Chuck, I feel like we've reached another great place for a break. What say you about taking a break? Let's do it.
26:22Chuck Bryant:Hey, everybody. We're hitting the road again, starting in January 2026, picking up again in April 2026. And eventually, Canada will tell you your dates, too.
26:32Josh Clark:That's right. We're going to do at least three legs. And the first leg is starting out in Denver, Colorado at the Paramount Theater on January 27th. We're going to go back to our beloved Seattle at the Paramount Theater there on the 28th. And then finally, back at Sketchfest on the 29th at the Sydney Goldstein Theater.
26:48Chuck Bryant:Yep. And then April 16th, 17th, and 18th, we're going to be in Madison, Wisconsin, Chicago, Illinois, and Akron, Ohio. And if you're not keeping up with all this or taking notes, don't worry. You can get all the info you need and buy tickets at StuffYouShouldKnow.com. Click on the tour button and thank us later.
27:06Josh Clark:That's right. We can't wait to see everybody again out there on the road.
27:24Josh Clark:All right, so we're back. We mentioned, you know, that long drought and conservation efforts that were happening and are happening but aren't nearly enough. And we need to talk about some of the reasons why it's not enough and what's going on out there. And one of the problems is that, you know, I mentioned early on when they calculated the flow of the river at 16.4 million acre feet per year. This was one hydrology study that was done in Yuma, Arizona, of all places. Yeah, there's a pop-up. It's very strange. They went down to Yuma. It was based on a single set of measurements. This is, if you don't know where Yuma is, it's hundreds of miles downstream from Lee Ferry.
28:07Chuck Bryant:Some people are like, oh, oh, okay.
28:09Josh Clark:Yeah, so it didn't make a lot of sense to do right there, much less just do one. So they had another available study, even at the time. There was a survey from a hydrologist named Eugene Clyde LaRue, who hiked hundreds of miles all up and down the Colorado River, taking measurements all over the place.
28:31Chuck Bryant:Yeah.
28:31Josh Clark:And that had about a million and a half gallons less per year. Acre feet, even. And they said, let's go with that other one because 16.4 million is a higher number. And we think that's just the one we should go with. And that was a big mistake. That's ultimately what they did.
28:51Chuck Bryant:I saw that there was a total that that LaRue study was widely available. People knew about it and they were like, nah. that means that the agreement overstretched the water supply from the Colorado River from the very first day. It was never able to supply all of the water that was being divided among the states. That was a huge, huge problem from the outset, right? And in fact, scientists have estimated that the basin states have been taking about a million acre feet per year over what the river can supply for decades. And right now they think that the river is producing about 13 million acre feet per year.
29:36Chuck Bryant:So even if they had gone with LaRue's estimate at 15 million acre feet, it would be producing less now. and not all of it is because more water is being drawn from it than it can provide. And a lot of that instead has to do with the fact that 70 % of the Colorado River's water flow comes from snow melt from the Rockies. And I don't know what to tell you if you don't believe in climate change, but the Rockies ain't been getting nearly as much snow every year in general as it used to. And as a result, the Colorado River shrunk to 80 % of its flow compared to, I think, the 1990s.
30:17Josh Clark:Yeah, so that's a big problem. Another problem is how this water is being used and how it's always been used. If you're talking residential use, commercial use, industrial use, that's only about 20 to 25 % of the Colorado River. Yeah, get this. The rest of that is agriculture and specifically agriculture to mainly grow alfalfa and hay to feed cattle. And if you're wondering why in the world did anyone ever decide to raise cattle out in the middle of the desert, it's because of the 1877 Desert Land Act. I think you can walk us through that. But Julia found a quote, though, from a guy from a Vox Media article named Kenny Torella.
31:01Josh Clark:He said, if policymakers and agricultural researchers were to start our food system from scratch, they probably wouldn't put a bunch of cows in the middle of a desert.
31:09Chuck Bryant:Yeah, and there's a lot of reason for that. They suck up a lot of water because that half of that water going to just grow hay, that doesn't include all the water the cattle drink themselves. Their hooves compact the arid soil more so that soil is less able to hold moisture when it does get water. And yeah, the reason that it happened is that that Desert Land Act, like you said, that was essentially created to send people out to improve the desert, go figure out good stuff to develop the desert. And the idea in and of itself was good. You could just go up and be like, I want some land, please.
31:45Chuck Bryant:And they would give you some land and you would go farm it. There were two keys. One, you didn't have to live there. And two, corporations got a bunch of people to go in and act as their agents, dummies, essentially, and get that land that they then turned around and sold to the corporation for next to nothing. The corporations put huge amounts of land together and started raising cattle on it. So, corporations, cattle corporations have had a stranglehold on this area for a very long time, and they've been able to dictate a lot of the water policy, which is why agriculture is such a huge part of water consumption in this area.
32:23Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. And, you know, like you mentioned earlier, the snow melt not happening. There's been such a drop that basically we're in danger of what's called the deadpool state, which is water flowing into a dam, but not enough water coming in to flow back out. So they're basically saying that, what is this, Lake Powell, later this year, I guess this is 2026, the water level might drop so low that it's not even going to spin those turbines anymore. And that means you're not generating hydropower at Glen Canyon Dam anymore. And that's a big, big problem.
32:58Chuck Bryant:And then the next problem beneath that is that the water level isn't even high enough to make it through the Penn stocks, which basically are like, we're not even messing with the turbines anymore. We're just trying to get water out of the reservoir down to the lower basin states. If the water levels go below those penstocks, that means the water is not going to make it downstream, which means that all of those areas have been choked off from their source of water, which is really, really bad, like catastrophic level bad. The electricity is bad enough, but the water is just, that would do it for those areas.
33:36Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. So they're trying to figure this out, obviously, because this is a big problem as the river compact is coming due for re-upping or renegotiating or whatever. In 2024, the basin states got together and they were like, all right, here's our proposals for 2026 to deal with what we're dealing with now and also to try and safeguard against the future and do it maybe in a more fair way. and the lower basin approach, California, Nevada, and Arizona, they said, all right, let's have conservation measures that are triggered based on average capacities of everything combined, like not just our portion, and we all share these reductions together as well, and we're committing to being a part of that.
34:23Chuck Bryant:Yes, and the upper basin said, no, we're not going to go along with that. In fact, we're not going to commit to any cuts whatsoever because, frankly, you guys have been using all the water up to this time and we are sick of it. We're not going to do anything to help you guys. That's what it seems like, right? Yeah. And so, yeah, they're like, California, Arizona, they're like, Nevada, you're okay. Sorry, you're wrapped up in this. But California and Arizona have been using way more water than was their share. And so now we have this conflict between the lower basin approach and the upper basin approach.
34:56Chuck Bryant:and this stalemate, it keeps getting kicked down the road and they just blew past their most recent deadline of February 13th, 2026, which was a Friday the 13th, which is also my anniversary too. Oh, yeah? Yeah, but this was a - Hey, happy late anniversary. Thank you very much. But as far as the basin states were concerned, it was not a happy Friday the 13th.
35:21Josh Clark:No, it wasn't. How long have you been married, by the way?
35:24Chuck Bryant:Let's see, 14 years now
35:27Josh Clark:That's Josh Matho, what would Yumi say?
35:29Chuck Bryant:She would say, that's close, it's 14 14, that's nice, nice work Yeah, thank you I didn't have to come up with a percentage or anything
35:38Josh Clark:Right, right, or Big Macs So in January of this year, I mean that was February, they passed the deadline But the feds basically said in January of this year, like, hey, like this is getting tiresome. And basically sort of like the parents walking in the room and saying, hey, if you guys don't get a framework together yourselves and work together, we're going to do it for you. And we know nobody wants that. They released a 1600 page report with options basically saying, hey, this is we're going to do this for you if you don't work it out. Yeah.
36:14Chuck Bryant:And remember that prior appropriation doctrine?
36:18Josh Clark:Yeah.
36:20Chuck Bryant:That's essentially what will be enforced. That's like the basic option that the federal government would probably choose if the states don't come up with their own plan. Yeah. And that means Arizona is toast and California is going to be just fine because California has the oldest projects and I think Arizona has some of the youngest projects. that's yeah I don't know what's going to happen with that again they just blew past their deadline I saw that California is trying to figure out how to do desalination projects which would help a lot of stuff but that's I mean they're going to have to build I think 40 billion dollars worth of infrastructure to do it which I don't think they have that in their pockets right now
37:08Josh Clark:didn't we do a desalination episode like 15, 16 years ago?
37:14Chuck Bryant:I don't know if it was that long ago, but we definitely did one. It was about desalination saving the world, basically, because of the impending water crisis.
37:22Josh Clark:Feels like a long time ago.
37:24Chuck Bryant:It does. That COVID, it really messed time up, didn't it? Yeah.
37:28Josh Clark:Also, just lots of time passing. That too. That really messed up time.
37:34Chuck Bryant:You got anything else, my man?
37:36Josh Clark:I got nothing else. This is a little shorter, but I hope we cleared it up some for the basin states. Get your act together, everybody. buddy, you got to work together or the feds are going to step in and slap your wrists.
37:44Chuck Bryant:There you go. Well, since Chuck talked about feds slapping wrists, of course, it's time for listener mail.
37:53Josh Clark:Yeah, this one goes back. I don't know if we read something like this or not, but I know it during the Julia Child episode, we couldn't think of the name of the pants, the short pants. A lot of people said cigarette pants. You said culottes.
38:06Chuck Bryant:Oh yeah.
38:07Josh Clark:Yeah, yeah. The word I think I might have been looking for, Vicky points out, was probably capris.
38:12Chuck Bryant:Oh, yeah.
38:14Josh Clark:Or clam digger pants. Sure.
38:16Chuck Bryant:I've heard that too.
38:17Josh Clark:That's what Vicky says. And funny story, guys, I heard about capri pants on TV. When Mary Tyler Moore was selected as Rob's wife in the Dick Van Dyke show, she specifically didn't want to be wearing pearls and a petticoat and a dress like Mrs. Cleaver and Donna Reed. So producers finally gave in and said, all right, you can wear those capri pants, which she really had to fight for but the pants were considered risque at the time and they said that she could never be filmed from the backside wearing those pants. Huh.
38:45Chuck Bryant:I've long thought, wow, you never see Mary Tyler Moore's bottom in the Dick Van Dyke show. Now I know why.
38:52Josh Clark:And that's from Vicki Reed.
38:55Chuck Bryant:I've always thought she dressed so adorably in that. She was adorable in that show. What a great show too.
39:01Josh Clark:Mary Tyler Moore is a treasure.
39:03Chuck Bryant:She is. Who was that, Vicki? Vicki Reed. Thanks a lot, Vicki Reed. We appreciate you. Capri pants, clam diggers, whatever you call them, they're pants and they're shorter than normal. If you want to be like Vicki and get in touch with us and help us out, we love being helped out. You can send it via email to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.
39:30Josh Clark:Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
39:46Chuck Bryant:Hey, everybody. We're hitting the road again, starting in January 2026, picking up again in April 2026, and eventually, Canada, we'll tell you your dates, too.
39:57Josh Clark:That's right. We're going to do at least three legs, and the first leg is starting out in Denver, Colorado, at the Paramount Theater on January 27th. We're going to go back to our beloved Seattle at the Paramount Theater there on the 28th. And then finally back at Sketchfest on the 29th at the Sidney Goldstein Theater.
40:12Chuck Bryant:Yep, and then April 16th, 17th, and 18th, we're going to be in Madison, Wisconsin, Chicago, Illinois, and Akron, Ohio. And if you're not keeping up with all this or taking notes, don't worry. You can get all the info you need and buy tickets at stuffyoushouldknow.com. Click on the tour button and thank us later.
40:31Josh Clark:That's right. We can't wait to see everybody again out there on the road. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.
From the publisher
Deciding how to share water is pretty important stuff when there isn't much of it around. Today we dive into the Colorado River Compact.
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