The Murder of Jane Stanford

8:28Josh Clark:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

8:30Chuck Bryant:Where he, he's, his character is descended from the jockey that rode that horse.

8:35Josh Clark:Yeah, I thought that was cool too. Daniel something, right?

8:38Chuck Bryant:I don't remember. I feel like a total jerk, but.

8:41Josh Clark:Well, you know, you can't remember everything off the dome.

8:44Chuck Bryant:But it turns out in real life that jockey's name was Dom, D-O-M-M. They think maybe Gilbert Dom.

8:52Josh Clark:So you know his name.

8:55Chuck Bryant:Yeah, but I looked it up this morning, so. So, all right, that's it, smart guy. Here we go.

9:00Josh Clark:I'm glad everybody knows that guy's name.

9:01Chuck Bryant:Here we go.

9:05Josh Clark:So, sadly, Leland Jr. would not live very long. He died at 15. He went to Europe with his mom. And it was a pretty sad thing, obviously a tragedy for the family. But a very interesting thing happened at the funeral when a young woman named Bertha Berner was there and met Jane, would later write her a letter and say, hey, I think you could use a person like me in your life. We'll call it personal secretary or whatever, but basically your right-hand person to kind of help you with everything that you need.

9:39Chuck Bryant:Like you said, just the classic Gilded Age wife, right?

9:44Josh Clark:Yeah. Okay. Along with a little spiritualism thrown in.

9:47Chuck Bryant:Yeah, that was a big one. And, you know, that gets kind of tossed around quite a bit, that the Stanfords in particular, Jane, were really heavy into spiritualism. Well, a lot of people were heavy into spiritualism at this time. So it was generally looked down upon from the halls of academia. So in a way, it was a little awkward for the university, for their founders to have been into spiritualism. But it wasn't just completely out of left field.

10:14Josh Clark:No, not, you know, among, especially among sort of wealthy elites. They were into that kind of thing.

10:18Chuck Bryant:And also, I mean, there was a that the death of Edward or the death of Leland Jr. was a really huge turning point. Apparently, they were kind of dabbling in it. But after that, she kind of devoted herself to getting a message from or getting in contact, I guess, with Leland Jr. again. And she tried for a long time. And then I think in the end, she was she was dissatisfied. She couldn't find anybody that she considered legitimate enough to actually do it, even though she believed it was possible. She she found that everyone she came in contact with was a fraud or huckster.

10:52Josh Clark:So and she's probably right. So Berner gets this job. You know, people from the outside were like, man, she really works hard for for Jane Stanford. Like she doesn't seem to have any time off. She kind of is run by Jane Stanford, but they were very close, and she would be with her until the day she died, put a pin in that, and in fact would get quite rich from her death. I think she got$15 ,000. The other household staff got$1 ,000 each in the will, but Berner got$15 ,000, which is about half a million today, so not too bad.

11:29Chuck Bryant:No, not bad at all. Also, I just want to say before we move on, the actor's name is Daniel Kaluuya. Yeah. Great.

11:36Josh Clark:So it was Leland Jr.'s death that actually inspired the founding of Stanford University. There are a couple of stories about how that might have happened. I think Leland took maybe the more acceptable mainstream version, which is, hey, it came to me in a dream after my son's death. But there was a medium, Maude Lord Drake, who said, no, that actually happened in a seance with me. It was a visitation from the afterworld that I mediated, and he just doesn't want to say that out loud, so he just called it a dream.

12:09Chuck Bryant:Yeah. Her famous quote was, who has two thumbs and was the medium who got Leland Jr. to tell his parents that he wanted them to found a university? And she said, me.

12:20Josh Clark:Yeah. Maude Lord Drake.

12:23Chuck Bryant:So, yeah. And you could actually make a case that if the university was true to form at the time, it's quite possible that the Stanfords claimed that it was from, you know, this seance, but the university just basically whitewashed that over and it became a dream instead.

12:41Josh Clark:That's right.

12:43Chuck Bryant:So, Chuck, regardless of how it came about, the Stanfords said that although they had lost their son, now the children of California would become their children. And to do that, they founded Stanford University. For those of you who aren't familiar, it's one of the most prestigious universities in the world, as far as I know, certainly in the U.S. It was the cradle for our current tech explosion. And it's just a really great university. Its official name is Leland Stanford Junior University, after Leland Stanford Junior. Still today, that's what it's called. And if you look at the details of how it was founded and what its mission was when it was open, it's like the Stanford's definitely did a good job of opening a public university.

13:32Josh Clark:Yeah, it was pretty unique. Tuition was free, first of all, so that was fairly unique. So, you know, they let in students that couldn't afford to go to college otherwise. Jane said, I want to make it a co-ed school. There were just a handful of those in the United States at the time. And also, I'm doing Sergio. You're what?

13:54Chuck Bryant:I'm doing Sergio, Jane said.

13:56Josh Clark:Oh, I gotcha. The other sort of odd thing was that it was not associated with a church. It was a Christian university, but it wasn't like, you know, Jane, again, was dabbling in the occult. So she had sort of a loose association with particular denominations. So it was a non-denominational Christian school, very much kind of a liberal arts thing at first. It would later, and in fact, you know, it was part of the friction between Jane and the eventual president on what kind of school it would be. She wanted it more liberal arts and he wanted it more science and research based.

14:38Chuck Bryant:Yeah, but even out of the gate, apparently it was for preparing students for personal success and direct usefulness in life. One of the things they did was they created an extension service for local farmers to find out the latest agricultural techniques. They accepted high school shop classes as credits. Like, it wasn't just this, it wasn't an elite institution meant to create a new generation of elites like, say, Harvard was at the time. Just at the time.

15:07Josh Clark:By the way, in my defense, I didn't recognize your Jane's Addiction line because I think that lyric is wrong. I think it's I'm done with Sergio.

15:20Chuck Bryant:Oh, I think that's the second verse. Is it? I will say anything to make myself right.

15:28Josh Clark:Okay. I just wouldn't be said doing Sergio. I was like, who the hell is Sergio?

15:33Chuck Bryant:Why is she doing that? That's the point. He treated her like a rag doll.

15:40Josh Clark:Well, see, now you're getting back on the good side of history. Well done.

15:46Chuck Bryant:Thanks.

15:47Josh Clark:All right, so Stanford is opening up. It's October 1st, 1891. Leland gives a great speech, Leland Sr., of course. And Jane apparently had a real banger of a speech written, and she said that she didn't have the courage to actually do it. But had she, it would have gone over pretty well, I think, because in it, there was a plea to the students like, hey, we're a new school. You know, got to work out the kinks here. Maybe be a little patient. And hey, if you're a young male student here, you know, you have girls around. Please treat these young ladies with great deference. And you might have some kids who don't come from wealthy backgrounds because it's a free school.

16:24Josh Clark:And maybe treat them well as well. So, you know, she has this great letter written and never says it publicly, unfortunately.

16:31Chuck Bryant:No, but I mean, all of these points support our overall point, like we said, which is they did a pretty good job of founding a university. Like the mission was great. The details were pretty great. Better than we've done. For sure. Ours is still kind of getting off the ground. It's just basically a grift right now. But hopefully we'll be able to build it into something real. Yeah. There is an issue with finding a president. Apparently the presidents they were looking for were like, I'm good here. I don't feel like moving out west. I think that was a big part of it. Like, California was not like California as it is now.

17:07Chuck Bryant:The Stanford University helped make Northern California what it is now. So it was still rugged, you know. They couldn't get just any Eastern college president to hop from his college out to Stanford. They finally found a former president of Indiana University named David Starr Jordan, who was also an ichthyologist by training and trade. He finally took them up on the offer.

17:34Josh Clark:That's right. And he also had a lot of pretty gross views on things. Yeah, like super. In retrospect, he was into eugenics. He thought scientific racism was pretty great and that if you're unfit, like if you're disabled or if you're in prison, maybe we should just sterilize you. And yeah, women should get educated, but just so they can be smarter in the home as homemakers.

18:02Chuck Bryant:He was also like a vocal pacifist, which you're kind of like, oh, OK, that's that's not bad. The reason why he was a pacifist was because he felt war promoted racial degradation because you send the fittest young men off to die. That leaves the weak to stay home and procreate and it degenerates the race or society back home. That was the reason he was a pacifist and anti-war. Yeah, there was nothing he could do right, basically, with that set of views.

18:30Josh Clark:Yeah, I agree. I think we should probably take a break. Set the stage for Stanford's founding. Sure. And we'll be right back with more on Jane Stanford.

18:40Chuck Bryant:If you want to know, then you're in luck. Just listen up to Josh and Chuck. Stuff you should know. Stuff you should know. Stuff you should.

19:06Chuck Bryant:Okay, so we're whittling down the people who could possibly have been murdered because Leland Jr. is dead now. Now Leland Sr. dies. There are very few people left of the Stanfords to have been the murder victim. Now it's just Jane, if that gives anything away. That's right.

19:24Josh Clark:So Jane was left as basically the only trustee of the early university. and she had a situation going on with the U.S. government where they were like, it was a lawsuit, 15 million bucks in 1893 dollars. And the kind of central point of it was the government was like, hey, because you or your husband and your family was part, you know, like founded and has ownership stairs of the Central Pacific Railroad Company, you should also be responsible for that company's debts. And we helped finance this thing, so like you need to pay us back. for these bonds that we sold. That's right. And she actually won that case, which all of a sudden, you know, they kind of had frozen her assets.

20:07Josh Clark:So all of a sudden these assets were open and she gave a huge chunk of$1899 to Stanford to the tune of 10 million bucks.

20:15Chuck Bryant:Yeah, and we should say to her credit before that, so this went on for six years from what I can tell. During that six year time, the court gave her a 300, in today's dollars, about a$365 ,000 a month allowance. And she spent most of it, she gave most of it to Stanford to run Stanford with. So she wasn't just like, well, I'm good. Good luck, Stanford. So, and then, yeah, after her assets weren't frozen, she was like, hey, how about$10 million? And everyone said, God, this is great. How wonderful. And she's like, wait a second. There's a couple of strings I'm going to attach to this. And they were strings that you would find hard to swallow.

20:57Chuck Bryant:Like the kind of strings you would put down your nose and pull out your mouth at the same time back and forth, they were those kind of strings.

21:04Josh Clark:Yeah. I mean, she basically had total and complete control of what happened there, including like how many trustees there would even be. So she wouldn't get a lot of pushback. Like I said, she was a micromanager, but not to her. To her, she just wanted things done right. And she basically had complete control over the university said, you know, like who could get in, who could get out, what teachers they could hire as staff. She said that they capped, even though it was her idea to make it a co-ed school, which is great, she capped it at 500 women because she didn't want it. She thought after that, people may think it's a women's college and that men might stop applying.

21:47Josh Clark:And that cap was in place for a while, even after she died, until they got rid of it.

21:52Chuck Bryant:Yeah, I read that she also had been told rumors that the men students were being distracted by the women students. And Susan B. Anthony wrote her and was just appalled and was like, what are you doing? She stuck with it. She was very adamant about that. And like you said, I don't think it was until the 30s where they finally were like, we can't just keep it at 500. So they lifted that.

22:17Josh Clark:Yeah. So Starr, the president, did not like this at all. He didn't like having someone sort of that much in the business. It seems like they had a pretty friction-riddled relationship. Especially, you know, she tried to get some of the spiritualism in there. I mentioned before that she wanted to focus on the liberal arts, but she also wanted to create an academic chair in psychic psychology. She also tried to hire this philosopher named William James, who was a guy who was very much involved in the paranormal. as a visiting professor.

22:52Chuck Bryant:Yeah, he was also the father of psychology, so he would have been quite a catch, but I think just his association with the paranormal made Jordan kind of dismiss everything else.

23:04Josh Clark:Yeah, I could see that. She finally got this guy named Julius Gerbel. Not Gerbels. I don't know if he dropped that S or not. I would have. Or I guess this was pre-World War II, so he didn't even know yet. But he, it seems like he was hired basically to kind of look out over the shoulder of David Starr Jordan, which he certainly didn't appreciate.

23:28Chuck Bryant:No, and he reported back to Jane Stanford that Jordan was basically a patron of the science department and anti-liberal arts departments, and that he was basically running the university like that. He was going behind Jane Stanford's back to win that argument over whether it should be a science or a liberal arts college. And then one thing that really kind of made huge waves as far as her micromanagement went, you said that she wanted to have control over who was hired. She also felt like she was totally within her rights to say, fire that guy for whatever reason. And there was a professor named Edward A.

24:07Chuck Bryant:Ross, who was a social scientist. And he was very much vocal in his support for William Jennings Bryant, who was a Democrat. and she did not like that. She was not in favor of William Jennings Bryant. So she told Jordan to fire him and Jordan eventually buckled under pressure and this became like a national scandal about whether there was academic freedom at all at Stanford. It was a huge deal.

24:33Josh Clark:Well, I think everyone sees where this is headed. And this, I guess, we'll just classify as murder attempt number one. In January of 1905, there was a servant that put some water on her nightstand before Jane Stanford was going to bed in there in San Francisco. She drank some of it, said, this doesn't taste quite right. So she went and gagged herself and made herself throw up and then gave it to her secretary and said, here, you try this. She tried it and was like, yeah, this doesn't taste right. So they sent it to a pharmacy and found that it, in fact, was poison. It was rat poison, not full strychnine, but just sort of over-the-counter rat poison.

25:17Chuck Bryant:Yeah, which is bad enough. I mean, it can kill you for sure. So this is, I mean, I can't imagine that, like if somebody had put rat poison in your water. So she was like, I'm getting out of here. I guess after the report came back a few weeks later that it was rat poison, she went to Hawaii. I read that she was ultimately on her way to Japan and that Hawaii was just a stop. I also read that she was trying to get out of Dodge and get away from having been poisoned. And so news of this poisoning started to spread. And Jordan, president of Stanford, was like, nope, no scandals, please. We just had that huge deal with firing Edward A.

25:55Chuck Bryant:Ross. There was no poisoning. Jane Stanford doesn't think she was poisoned. It's all just some, you know, misunderstanding. So nothing to see here, everybody.

26:05Josh Clark:Right. So the media is not fully buying this, at least the local media. They continue to kind of speculate and write about it and investigate, you know, people that were on the scene, notably the servants that were in the house at the time. For a little while, they kind of cooked up a case because it seems like fully about anti-Chinese prejudice going on in California at the time of her Chinese cook. But there was no motive, no evidence at all. So that kind of went away. And then the police did come in. They questioned some of the servants. but everybody was exonerated by the cops in the end.

26:40Chuck Bryant:Yeah, every single one. So Stanford also hired, Stanford, the university, I guess, through Jordan, hired a private detective. And he did an investigation and basically was like, okay, sure, there was rat poison in the water. It was added after the fact for one servant to frame another. And I don't think any of the servants were named. it was just a theory that was like, good enough. We're not even going to publicize that one. Let's just let this die. Meanwhile, Jane Stanford has gone to Hawaii, remember? She's in Waikiki at the Moana Hotel, which is still there. And she's taken two people with her, Bertha Berner, the secretary who's been with her for years now, who she was like, here, you taste this.

27:27Chuck Bryant:And a new maid, Mae Hunter, who was not, I don't believe, even on the staff at the time of that first poisoning attempt. She took both of them to Hawaii with her.

27:39Josh Clark:Yeah, so she's holed up there. We should point out that Berner did not want to go. She had an ill mother in California and she wanted to stay and be with her. Jane Stanford said, nope, you're coming to Hawaii with me.

27:51Chuck Bryant:Yeah, that's why I pointed out how Jane Stanford went back to Albany to care for her father until he died.

27:57Josh Clark:That's right. So a couple of weeks into Hawaii, this is February 28th. We'll call this murder, well, successful murder, not murder attempt number two. She said, hey, I got a little upset tum-tum. Go get me some baking soda and water. And Berner went and did that. And around 11 o 'clock, she's not feeling too good. She was like, I'm really, really sick. I think I've been poisoned again. And they call in a local doctor, Francis Humphress, who came to the hotel room. And by that time, Jane Stanford was in pretty bad shape.

28:34Chuck Bryant:Yeah, she was showing some telltale signs of strychnine poisoning. Remember, somebody put rat poison in her Poland Springs water. That's strychnine. And if you take strychnine, some very telltale things take place over your body. because strychnine interferes with your nerve receptors or your muscle receptors, I guess, along your spinal column. And you suddenly are having like massive, violent, involuntary muscle clenching. And they follow like certain patterns or whatever. And Jane was following the same, I guess, progression of strychnine poisoning is certainly what it looked like. And ultimately, she died with her body clenched still.

29:19Chuck Bryant:and I think she died at 1140 about a little over 30 minutes after she had gotten up and said she thought she'd been poisoned.

29:29Josh Clark:Yeah, and well, I think that's a perfect time actually for Act Three to resume. Yeah? This is where the gun goes off. All right, right after this, we'll be right back.

29:39Chuck Bryant:If you want to know, then you're in luck. Just listen up to Josh and Chuck. Stuff you should know Stuff you should know Stuff you should know All right, so Jane Stanford is now dead.

30:08Josh Clark:Her last words were, this is a horrible death to die. That's terrible. Allegedly. And Jordan was like, all right, this is no good. You know, it's no good if she was murdered. It's no good if it was suicide. Like, this is all just bad news. We have to kind of get this thing taken care of so the university can not be tainted by the death of this woman. And he gets a trustee. He flies out there with this guy, Timothy Hopkins, to Hawaii. They said they were going to get the body. And there was also a couple of San Francisco police detectives that went, a guy named Harry Reynolds and Jules Calendon of the Morse Detective Agency.

30:50Josh Clark:They go there, obviously, to investigate this death because at the time, Hawaii is very rural, sort of. I think there wasn't a lot of trust in like either the well, both the local cops and the local doctors.

31:03Chuck Bryant:Yeah, I think it had been the territory for either three years or five years at that point. It was considered a backwater, essentially. I think also Jordan was getting there so he could do whatever he could to control the narrative. And those two detectives were working at the behest of the university, essentially, not the public. So a coroner's jury was convened on March 8th. Remember, she died on February 28th, so about a week later. And they heard three days of testimony. And after the three days of testimony, they adjourned for two minutes before they came back and said she was murdered by poison.

31:40Josh Clark:that's right but that was no good for Stanford University so Jordan was like all right let me see if I can rewrite this narrative he gets another physician in there a guy named Dr. Waterhouse has his own separate private investigation Waterhouse doesn't examine the body he just goes on the description of events as they happened he heard Berner say hey you know When we were at this picnic, she really ate a lot and she had tummy trouble. That's why I was getting her that soda water at the end of the night. And he put out a four-page report that said that was fully announced to the media that, no, it was not poisoning.

32:20Josh Clark:She died of heart failure. And the local doctor and the local cops were pretty furious.

32:27Chuck Bryant:Yeah, so this is what Waterhouse came up with. And this is what Jordan took back to the mainland and presented to everybody and said, this is what really happened. this doctor said so, that she had overeaten tongue sandwiches, undercooked gingerbread, lots of coffee, a bunch of chocolate candy, had basically indigestion, made herself hysterical from the indigestion, and got so hysterical that her heart stopped. That's how she died. That's basically what President Jordan came back and told the world. And it actually worked. It worked because he was a white man in a prominent position, and people just listened to him, Because who are you going to listen to, this guy or the Hawaii authorities?

33:09Josh Clark:Yeah. And, you know, the media was covering in Hawaii, the media was covering kind of their side of things. But in the lower 48, especially in San Francisco, that Jordan narrative was the one that got out. He was criticizing the local doctors. He was criticizing the local cops. He said, in fact, he flat out accused the local doctor there of adding strychnine after the death to make it look like a murder. And said, you know, Berner was a very close friend. There's no way that she would have been any part. You know, she was her trusted secretary for years. There's no way that she had any part in any of this.

33:48Chuck Bryant:And again, the San Francisco PD and the public and the press were like, OK, good enough for us. You said that the one person who was present at both poisonings is A-OK in your book. Great. She's off the hook. We're not even going to investigate her thoroughly. Yeah.

34:04Josh Clark:And it kind of went away from there for a little while. The local papers in San Francisco covered it. You know, they said that there was still investigations ongoing and that people, you know, would be brought in and arrested or at least, you know, investigated. and that lasted for about a month and no charges were ultimately filed at all. And it was kind of like that's the way it went until the early 2000s. It just kind of went cold until a writer named Robert W.P. Cutler, who was a neurology professor at Stanford and a physician, put out a book called The Mysterious Death of Jane Stanford.

34:42Chuck Bryant:Yeah, and this was a big deal to question the orthodoxy, which was, like you said, for a century that she died of natural causes. That's just what the official line was. And that's, you know, the idea that she'd been poisoned just completely fell out of the public awareness or imagination until Cutler brought it back in 2003. And he was a neurology professor from Stanford. So he had like a certain amount of medical background that he applied into this research. And one of the first things he did was investigate whether Robert Starr Jordan had any basis in questioning the qualifications of Dr. Humphress and the other doctors that were there.

35:24Chuck Bryant:And he found that, no, actually, they did a really good job of trying to revive her. And then once she was dead, preserving the evidence, because it was so clear to these guys that it was strychnine poisoning because she was showing all the telltale signs. So they preserved evidence in the room with her. They preserved the sodium bicarbonate, I guess, jar, the spoon, the glass that had been served in, the chamber pot and some vomit of hers.

35:55Josh Clark:That's gross.

35:56Chuck Bryant:It is gross. But not only did they preserve it, they got a judge to come in who served as a witness while they handed it over to the sheriff. Then the judge accompanied the sheriff while he took this evidence to the chief sanitary officer at the Board of Health for Hawaii. And when they carried out this autopsy, there were seven doctors and a toxicologist who worked on this autopsy. Three of the doctors hadn't been at the scene. So they hadn't they hadn't seen they were just working with just the body and the evidence that they got from the body. And they had a mortician and a morgue assistant act as witnesses.

36:33Chuck Bryant:Essentially, you could not do a better job of handling a suspected murder poison case than these guys did in Hawaii.

36:42Josh Clark:Yeah, he also found a letter from Jordan to the president of the board of trustees that had, you know, just a lot of different explanations. He said, if the tonic theory of strychnine is not acceptable, you have the other that it was put in by the doctor just to bolster up his case. And after he had time to read up on the symptoms a little, he's a man without professional or personal standing. So he was it seems like it was just such a clear cover up that he was offering up all these different theories of what could have happened besides the obvious. Yeah. And Cutler was like, you know, it is super obvious.

37:17Josh Clark:He didn't come out and, like, accuse anyone, but he did sort of offer some ideas. Maybe Berner, the personal secretary, maybe she was there and had the opportunity to do something, even though she didn't have much of a motive. Jordan certainly had the motive, but he wasn't there. So maybe those two were in cahoots or something.

37:37Chuck Bryant:Yes. So that's kind of where it sat. Yeah, this 2003 book, The Mysterious Death of Jane Stanford, it got some pretty good press that's still around today that, you know, book reviews and stories and stuff like that. And that just kind of faded away again, even though he kind of upset the balance that had been around for 100 years. There wasn't anything major about it until about 20 years later, another book from another Stanford professor, a historian named Richard White, came out. And he just came out and said it. Who killed Jane Stanford was the title of his book. And he, like Cutler, did a really good job of digging into the story and finding new evidence that, as far as he's concerned, pointed to the murderer.

38:25Josh Clark:Yeah, I mean, he said that Jordan definitely covered this thing up. but he said I don't know if he would have been the murderer though because just her dying period was not good for the university. Either way, if it was suicide, that's no good. If it's murder, that's certainly no good. So he didn't think that Jordan would have gone that far because Jordan really wanted to protect Stanford at all costs.

38:53Chuck Bryant:Yeah, and you might be like, well, what's the problem with that? Well, the murder, that's a scandal. The suicide was a legal problem because it would call into question her mental fitness at the time that she had offered that grant. And so all of a sudden, heirs, people connected to him, relatives would have come out of the woodwork challenging that$10 million grant and saying, no, that money is supposed to go to us instead. So he really did have every reason to cover this up. And it definitely seems that that was his motivation. But like you said, he probably had nothing to do with the murder.

39:31Chuck Bryant:Instead, Richard White trains his spotlight on Bertha Berner. And he disagrees with Cutler, who Cutler was like she didn't really have a motive, even though she had opportunity. He was like, they weren't the best motives, but there are a couple of motives that she had. One, she knew that she was getting an inheritance and maybe she wanted it sooner than later. And two, she could have just gotten sick of basically being having to devote her life to Jane Stanford because that's what was expected of her.

40:02Josh Clark:Yeah, the job that she voluntarily asked for.

40:05Chuck Bryant:Yes, but Jane Stanford like tried to keep her from having any kind of personal life. And that was not the kind of person Bertha Berner was. So that was just a constant source of tension between them. and who knows, supposedly both of them were like, no, we're actually good friends. But there were people on the outside who were like, it's kind of, I'm not sure if they're actually friends.

40:27Josh Clark:That's right. So that's it. That's the death of Jane Stanford. Probably never be solved. Jordan continued to work there as university president until 1913. Berner lived pretty well, you know, because she had all that dough from the will. and she, you know, people were suspicious of her, but she basically lived a pretty decent life until she died in 1945.

40:50Chuck Bryant:Yeah, she wrote two biographies on Jane Stanford before she died and neither one of them revealed much of anything. So it's almost teasing, tantalizing, if you will. That's it.

41:02Josh Clark:Well, Susan Jotts said, that's it. It's time for Listener Mail. You bet. I'm going to call this weird coincidence because we have these episodes that come out from time to time that line up with the news. And that's what happened with our lasers episode. It came out in real time today, the day after we learned that a laser was used to shoot down a drone at the El Paso airport and close the airport down. Wow. So this is Josh and Chuckers Equal Deep State. Secure his chin strap to my tinfoil hat. I'm officially on to you guys. You release an episode about lasers the day after the FAA closes the El Paso Airport in their cover story because they had to shoot drones with their new lasers.

41:47Josh Clark:You might slip this one past some of the other sheep listening, but oh no, not this guy. I want to know who you really work for, guys. Is it Jerry or does it go all the way to the top? Well, consider not blowing the whistle on this conspiracy if you did an episode on bicycles or the history of mountain biking. Those are my demands, and that is from Dan.

42:06Chuck Bryant:Yes, Dan. We work for Jerry. Jerry's actually an acronym like SPECTRE, but we're not at liberty to say what it stands for.

42:13Josh Clark:I love it.

42:15Chuck Bryant:Thanks a lot, Dan. You got us figured out. We're going to have some goons come to your house, and it's not going to be pleasant for you. Maybe that'll teach you not to email and shoot off your big mouth from now on. If you want to be like Dan and have things happen to you, you can send us an email too. Send it off to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.

42:37Josh Clark:Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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